Replies

1. 
   user-121922 | Sep 26, 2007 09:50am | #1

   Cut the wires. Your going to re-wire much any way!

2. 
   FAC | Sep 26, 2007 08:16pm | #2

   Thanks for response, but wiring for first floor is not being altered. I need to come up with an idea on the most efficient way to move old wires.  Any other suggestions?

    

   
   

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   Edited 9/26/2007 1:19 pm ET by FAC

1. 
   Piffin | Sep 26, 2007 09:08pm | #3

   The best way is generally to cut them out and re-wire. I know there is a mental block about that, but I can't count how often people try to spend a dollar to save a dime.Also, depending how old this house is, you may be required to re-wire to bring it up to standard, and if this is the older AL wiring, you would be wise to rewire on that basis alone. 

    

   Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!

2. 
   calvin | Sep 26, 2007 10:24pm | #4

   In most cases the wiring in the ceiling (your new floor) will come from somewhere and go somewhere in the ceiling-take those apart and coil back.  Install your joists, redrill and run the wire back to the original location. 

   Runs down the wall at both ends will have to be undone at one end, pulled back and redrilled and run back to their original point.

   The lengths shouldn't change.  You might have to angle drill or change direction if the cables went through the joist and turned.

   Good labeling and maybe spraypt color code and pictures will help.

   Otherwise, rewire.A great place for Information, Comraderie, and a sucker punch.

   Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.

   http://www.quittintime.com/

    

3. 
   CapnMac | Sep 26, 2007 10:34pm | #5

   I need to come up with an idea on the most efficient way to move old wires.  Any other suggestions?

   It has sounded flippant, but that's the answer, cut & rewire.

   The "why" of it is simple, if not immediately obvious.

   You need full depth to get the new TJI in; wires are in the way.  Ok, one way would be to trace each line, yanking each staple out one after the other, from a fixture or j-box to the next j-box.

   Electrical Helper around here is getting about $9-10/hr, which is a billable rate of $35-40 the hour.  Locally, the helper has to be supervised by at least a Journeyman, who will have a bill rate closer to $60-70 per hour.  Wire, even with a markup is cheap by comparision.  Also, when you try to "rescue" cabling like this is when you find it has all sorts of hurry-up-an-waits in it.  Nicked cover, semi-legit splice, burns, what have you.

   So, yeah, it sound dumb, yeah, it sounds wateful--but, chop out & replace is fastest, like as not.Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)

1. 
   xxPaulCPxx | Sep 26, 2007 11:28pm | #6

   Out of curiosity, why wouldn't a new plate and rim be put on top of the existing joists?  I realize that isn't the way it's normally done, but why not?  It would isolate the two floors better with a minimal outlay of new material.Rebuilding my home in Cypress, CA

   Also a CRX fanatic!

   If your hair looks funny, it's because God likes to scratch his nuts.  You nut, you.

1. 
   FAC | Sep 27, 2007 06:35am | #9

   Hey thanks I actualy went to my township, and they told me that was a great idea.

   It came to me today, At work I have not stopped thinking about it.  I am either going to do it the way you said, or add blocking and a plate. You must be a genius like me. Thanks for your suggestion.

1. 
   xxPaulCPxx | Sep 27, 2007 09:20am | #11

   You must be a genius like me.

   So when do you think they'll let us out of these neat white coats where the sleaves buckle behind the back?Rebuilding my home in Cypress, CA

   Also a CRX fanatic!

   If your hair looks funny, it's because God likes to scratch his nuts.  You nut, you.

2. 
   Piffin | Sep 28, 2007 08:12pm | #23

   Slow down genius and think this through before you c0mmitt to it. Raisuing the floor this way will most likely add two risers and two treads to your staircase, meaning it takes up more space in the floorplan, possibly forcing you to give up or ccompromise on room sizes and wall locations. 

    

   Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!

3. 
   FAC | Oct 02, 2007 06:33pm | #24

   Mr. Piffin

   There is plenty of room on  the first floor for any adjustments needed. My problem is, Its hard for me to explain but. The first floor stair case is broken in to two sections, you walk up the stairs to a landing turn right, and go up to the second floor, no broblem. Then you turn right and walk about 15', turn right again, walk about 15' more feet, turn right on to a second staircase that dulicates the first floor staircase and goes to a third floor. So the staircase is open all the way down to yhe foyer. The stairs are directly on top of each other. The first floor will be higher due to the extra plate and joist. and would require additional stair. The second floor would be shorter and would require less stairs. I thought about raising second floor to be equal to first floor height, Thought about adjusting the landing on the second floor, making it bigger, almost put it back where it was if that makes any sense. but headroom would be an issue. So I pretty much decide to let the elctrician have at it. It is considerd an extra anyway. I was just trying to save the homeowner a little $$.

   I still like the idea and will use it in the future. 

                                             Thanks, sincerely the Inconsistent Genius

4. 
   Piffin | Oct 02, 2007 06:40pm | #25

   It always takes some head scratching to activate the 3D synapses up there when figuring out stairs, LOLMaybe why my head is losing hairs in the 3D region. 

    

   Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!

5. 
   RalphWicklund | Oct 02, 2007 07:47pm | #26

   I don't see a headroom problem.

   Adding I-joists over current ceiling joists in an open foyer naturally adds tread and riser numbers and a little math will tell you what the rise and run must be as well as the required riser height to get you to the second floor.

   You did say there was no problem with the necessary space for that footprint.

   The second floor, being new, with most likely a standard ceiling height of 8', is now the starting point for the next flight of stairs. There is no need to increase trhe 2nd floor ceiling height to match the first floor.

   Under those stairs is the additional distance from finished floor to finished floor created by the addition of the I-joists over the existing ceiling. That gives you at least 14" of additional headroom under the second floor stairs.

   Also, since this is all new construction with a second floor being added to an existing house you do have plenty of leeway in positioning your new open foyer stairway.

   Your initial post concerning rerouting wiring in the ceiling because you were adding an independent floor over or in between the existing ceiling joists has been solved by others who recommended a new 2x plate on the perimeter of the structures ceiling joists with the I-joists on top of that.

   You can't imagine the amount of money and headache and time you save with that method.

2. 
   DanH | Sep 27, 2007 12:28pm | #12

   The problem, of course, is the extra height. Means that you need to lengthen stairs maybe 18 inches, can make the house looks strangely tall, et al. But if it works then that's obviously the simplest approach.
   If your view never changes you're following the wrong leader

4. 
   DanH | Sep 27, 2007 12:55am | #8

   Well, assuming there's not loads of slack in the wires, there's only one way I can think of to avoid cutting some of them: Deeply notch the existing joists, drop the wires into the notches, then sister the new joists above the wires. If you did it one joist at a time you might get away with it without causing the ceiling to collapse.Otherwise, you're gonna have to cut some wires, and it's just a matter of figuring out where, and figuring out where you can make the junctions and keep them legal (ie, accessible). In some cases a blank cover in the ceiling may be the only reasonable alternative.
   If your view never changes you're following the wrong leader

1. 
   Framer | Sep 27, 2007 12:44pm | #14

   Deeply notch the existing joists, drop the wires into the notches, then sister the new joists above the wires.

   Dan,

   Sounds like you're talking about cutting deep notches in the bottom of the existing joists. That's not a good idea because you would weaken the joists holding up the Sheetrock and then you would have to fill the web on the I-joists in solid to nail the joists back into top and bottom.

   You can't sit the new joists above the wires because the new I-joists are sitting on the same top plate, the wires would still be in the way, unless you sit the new joists on top of 2x4 blocking in between the existing joists at the plate line and center wall. That raises the new joists up 1-1/2".Joe Carola

1. 
   DanH | Sep 27, 2007 01:02pm | #15

   Yep, as I said you'd have to do it carefully to avoid destroying the ceiling. And you're right that the new joists would have to be blocked up a bit. In practice it's often hard to bring new joists up/down flush with the old due to interference with various features, so the need to block wouldn't be unusual.I hadn't mentioned placing the new joists entirely atop the old because that seemed obvious, and I assumed that option had been discarded.
   If your view never changes you're following the wrong leader

1. 
   Framer | Sep 27, 2007 01:41pm | #16

   I hadn't mentioned placing the new joists entirely atop the old because that seemed obvious, and I assumed that option had been discarded.

   A lot of things seem obvious, but need to be explained. I guess packing out the whole web of the I-joists to nail and secure the existing joists after notching them seems obvious also and had been discarded?

    

    

    

    

    

    

    

    

    

    

    

    

    

    

    Joe Carola

2. 
   DanH | Sep 27, 2007 02:09pm | #17

   Yeah, I'd overlooked the point that these were I-joists in the original post. That makes regular sistering pretty difficult.
   If your view never changes you're following the wrong leader

5. 
   grpphoto | Sep 28, 2007 06:39am | #22

   Ok, if you won't cut and rewire, then disconnect at one end, bore holes through the center of your new joists, run the wires through those holes, and reconnect the ends.George Patterson

3. 
   Framer | Sep 26, 2007 11:36pm | #7

   Why can't you sit the new I-joists on top of the existing 2x8's? Are you close with your maximum height for the ridge? Also doing that adds more steps and you might not have enough room downstairs.

   All the Add-A-Levels I do now we sit on top of the joists. Well, I shouldn't say that, the one I'm doing now we went along side the existing because the stairs aren't changing. The wires come out and then once the joists are in, the electrician drills holes and re-wires.You have no choice unless you're taking the sheetrock off the ceilings underneath.

   Joe Carola
1. 
   FAC | Sep 27, 2007 06:41am | #10

   I like that idea but what do I do with wires, I could notch them in to old joists first. then sit the I's on top. Stairs are not a problem there is plenty of room. thanks for the advice.

1. 
   Framer | Sep 27, 2007 12:33pm | #13

    

   I like that idea but what do I do with wires, I could notch them in to old joists first. then sit the I's on top.

   Since your sitting the I-joist on top of a 2x4 or 2x6 plate on top of the existing ceiling joists, you don't have to do anything to the wires. What wires are you talking about anyway?Joe Carola

1. 
   FAC | Sep 28, 2007 02:43am | #18

   I thought you meant no plate, just sit directly on top of old joists.

   I thought of potential broblem, The first floor stairs will not be a problem. But the foyer is open from the floor all the way to second floor ceilng. With the stairs siting ontop of each other going all the way up to the attic. the second floor will not be as tall as the first, but the stairs will still need to be on of each other. The stairs would have to cut differently, which is not an option.

   What do you think?

    

1. 
   DanH | Sep 28, 2007 02:55am | #19

   The stairs are often a problem regardless. Sometimes code may let you cheat on attic stairs, but the ones to the second floor will have to meet modern code. Usually this means they take up about twice as much room as you figured on, and things like center beams and extra floor thickness can create head clearance problems that further complicate.Don't "harden" any plans until you're sure you can make the stairs fit.
   If your view never changes you're following the wrong leader

2. 
   FAC | Sep 28, 2007 03:12am | #20

   Hey dan

   Also the stairs to the attic are open to the foyer. They kind of wrap around the walls from the fist floor till it gets to the attic. so I don't see how raising the new joists up 1 1/2 work after all. Ironically I have to look at a very simalar job. Which will make estimating easy.  And still like the idea of the joist on new plates so maybe it would work on another project. I guess it is back to the electrician moving the wires

   Thanks for the help.  

3. 
   SamT | Sep 28, 2007 03:21am | #21

   Block in between existing joists on top of the plate to make the difference is stairs exactly one riser height. SamT