I’m getting drawings together for a one room addition on the back of an 1880’s woodframe foursquare house in the chicago area, and I’ve got 3 questions.
1.) The client wants to do the family/TV room now as a one floor addition, but will probably want to do a second floor on top of it in a few years. What would be the least wasteful, most tasteful, and most economical way to do this when it comes time to add the second floor? A flat roof that you could just build over later? A little gable end roof to match the back entry? I can’t imagine a flat roof looking okay there- the house has had enough crimes committed against it, right from the start, I think (see top dormer/roof situation in the picture ).
2.) They don’t want a basement. Can you do a 2 storey addition on sonotubes, or do we have to dig for a continuous foundation and tie it into the old rubble foundation, which i’d like to avoid?
3.) They have steam heat. Does it make sense to just tie in one or two more radiators, or just get electric baseboards? my gut is to add a few radiators…
Thanks!
-M
Replies
What a mess. Trying to work up elevations that would tie all those roofs together in any satisfactory way would mean you will end up having to do a lot of work to the existing building - and based on the fact that at some time they bought that house, my guess is that your clients are more interested in a larger space than how the whole thing looks. I would be inclined to build a flat roofed addition that was well detailed and while borrowing some materials from the existing, set itself apart. A sort of jewel in the backyard. I would also do elevations of the two story version before I finalized the first stage, to avoid surprises down the road.
You can build on sono tubes. I've did an entire house on them, but I wouldn't do it again. Sheathing the underside of the floor, plumbing and insulation all become complicated, You are also left with a large area of dirt that is difficult to do much with. It usually becomes an unpleasant mixture of mud and anaemic weeds. I don't know how deep your frost goes, but I'd be inclined to put in a crawlspace. If you are worried about excavating next to the existing "rubble foundation", you can pour a wall parallel to it several feet away and cantilever your floor joists over to join the addition to the house.
hi- thanks for your advice- great to have. >What a mess. Trying to work up elevations that would tie all those roofs together in any satisfactory way you know it. there's a house from the same era down the street, same floor plan, and the roof works. since i've known this house i've been dying to know how it got that way. worse, it looks like it was built that way in the 1880's. i keep imagining the plans got lost then the GC died or something. the client initially wanted me to make the attic liveable, before wanting the first floor addition. the roof on that "bay" is a low slope roof with a hipped dormer just above it, and a window under that hipped roof, so i drew up a scheme with a gable end dormer for the space. then they decided to do it downstairs. my guess is that your clients are more interested in a larger space than how the whole thing looks. again, you got it. they need space, not beauty. unfortunately, they live a few blocks from Frank Lloyd Wright's home and studio, so are very closely watched in terms of aesthetics, which may rule out the jewel in the backyard scheme. that, and the budget. cantilevering joists back sounds great though. read a nightmare story about a rubble foundation collapsing and having the pour fill up the basement. thanks again.
-m
Fascinating pics. With such a good example to follow its hard to imagine how they went so wrong. But then hey - Your clients need more space, and if they can live with the roofs I'm sure you can. Good luck with it.
Would I be out of line to suggest building the 1st floor with a roofed porch above. When the owner is ready the deck can be enclosed without roof lines being changed and they have the use of it in the mean time.
Foundation - You CAN do on piers BUT I would not unless it were a small one - easy tocrawl under to deal with undersheathing. In that climate the crawl space is the right way to do this. If you do go sono, be sure to size the pads for the load of two stories. Same with rim beams.
Flat roof is the way to go to keep options open for second storey. Use EPDM roof membrane.
You could add a decorative short railing to make it look good.
Heat - you need to have a heating company run the numbers
up above there - is that a gable end wall that is shingled or an extremely steep hip roof?
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thanks for your response and advice... >up above there - is that a gable end wall that is shingled or an extremely steep hip roof? yeah, there's a little bit of everything going on in this house. it's a steep hipped roof dormer over a low slope roof. the back of the house is a train wreck. can't imagine how the heck to integrate a 2nd floor roof into the back of that gable end that projects out of the back. there are a half dozen of these houses in the nieghborhood, none with this baffling roof arrangement. see the pics i attached with my response to the first response...
Chicago's DCAP (Department of Construction and Permits) will require a continuous foundation. As far as I know all municipalities in this area will require that also, which I believe is even good common sense.
Bottom of footing needs to be a minimum of 42" below finish grade (this is the frostline). Since your clients are planning on a future second floor the foundation needs to be a two pour (footing and wall) and not a single pour trench foundation.
I've been asked to design such an addition once or twice. I always point out that the second floor addition years down the line will cost more than if you do it all at once.
I agree that you should design (at least with preliminary sketches) how the second floor may look in plan and elevations. This will limit the problems of how the second floor lays out later on.
If you do the first floor addition only at this time, size the ceiling joists for floor loads. If choose to do a flat roof (not really flat but pitched for water runoff) you'll have to remove the roofing, roof sheathing, and whatever you use to create the shallow pitch. If you choose to do a gable roof, you'll still need to remove the roofing, sheathing and roof rafters down the line. You will still need to insulate the ceiling with R=38 (min). The gable roof is easier to vent out the shallow attic space above the ceiling.
Figure out the cost of one vs the other.
Have a plumber look at the boiler to see if it can take on the additional area for additional radiators.
Don't forget to check out the zoning parameters for this property( setbacks, floor area ratio, required open space, etc.) Since it is Chicago, I suggest you use the Neighborhood Permit Center option for your permit submittal. I sense that these locations are more homeowner friendly than the City Hall location downtown. Make an appointment ahead of time. Check the city website for all information on the process.
Even the back of this house can be made to look right.
Waiting on the second floor is going to be much more expensive in the long run. You might run the numbers by them for building the second floor as unconditioned storage or attic space, which they can finish later. The only additional cost is really just siding and exterior framing on the upper story. Pretty cheap.
Frame the window openings, but sheath and side over. Preplan your mechanicals and screw decking down instead of nails and leave out the construction adhesive to make pulling up the decking easier. Leave out the stairs for now if money is tight.
I recently looked at a house so finished and it was bizare at first to not have stairs, but three good sized rooms where an attic would be.
Good building.
Beer was created so carpenters wouldn't rule the world.
Mikeymo -- doing a roof now and then again later when the $'s are avail for the second story might not be best. If I were you, I'd price to do the second floor now - just sheathed and sided with 3 good windows -- an when $'s came avail do the interior etc -- how expensive cold it be do the the 3 walls and exterior finish?