I’ve started this as a seperate thread so that I reap the benefit of your collective wisdom and not get it buried in my prior post “What happened to pride in workmanship” and my meager contributions to “Custom home quality?”
I get the well made point that quality costs more and we should expect to pay more for “better” workmanship. So, given that we are building in a 10 house middle working class SD (not by our GC) out in the country and have done the following, what would you suggest we do next/ongoing?
Have selected a mid $ range GC. Checked out 7 or 8 referrals he gave us and had visited 3 of them. Given him a detailed set of specs with as many architect produced drawings as he asked for. Changed the design based on his feedback about limitations of site and/or more cost effective ways to do things. Agreed to research any and all materials he is not familar with (we know, alarm signals go off but we’re keeping it relatively simple but green). Have a mutually agreed upon and drafted contract with explicit qualty benchmarks noted, and have committed not to have direct job related conversations with the subs (most of whom he’s had for 5+ years).
Oh! We will provide end of phase or week beer, several home made treats (made by SWMBO) and a completion party.
Replies
L........Inspect what you expect. You sound like a builders friend.
My advice, if you want to know where you are going cost-wise, is to include in those specs as many of the details as possible, and this is a partial list:
Trim scheme, inside and out, including specifics of materials (species, grade, manufacturer) and finish (how many coats of primer, sealer, finish)
Schedules that include manufacturer, name, model #, color, etc., for all these: cabinets, lighting, windows, doors, hardware, plumbingware
A couple other thoughts.
Your drawings should be site-specific. In other words, if you have chosen a "stock plan," but what you will build is some variation on that plan, even if the variations seem minor, then spend the money now to get the plans modified, and make sure your agreement refers to the modified plans.
Don't ask for anything of your builder that he hasn't done before. Examples: if he hasn't framed with engineered lumber before, don't make him be a pioneer on your job. If he has never put in skylights before, don't ask him to start with you.
In the three finished examples of what he showed you, you should be looking very close and with a critical eye, and anything, anything that doesn't look right to you, should be questioned and discussed, now.
Thank you. With a couple of exceptions we're there. The house plan is a custom design with the GC and archy communicating and both having visited the site several times. We have agreed with the GC that within the allowances for things, such as lighting fixtures, we will specify model etc and/or pick them up ourselves. Materials for things like trim, siding et al have been called out but we did not include plumbing or electrical. Since we are still in draft mode we'll talk to him and ask to add them.
Cabinetry all in there? A kitchen, 2.5 baths, and entertainment center can range from an allowance of 12K up to over twice that, not including countertops.
A lowball bozo in my town would typically give an unsuspecting client an allowance of $8k for cabinets and tops, and then when they come in at $32k, it's bitch and moan time.
Ask your guy to not only give you reasonable allowances for all the plumbingware and lighting fixtures, but to itemize the lists.
It's easy to research "retail" pricing of things on the web, and you should ask how the kind of pricing you see there will compare to the way he totes up the tab against the allowance numbers.
Example: I can see the retail price for a cast iron 66" tub at $1380, but my cost through my plumber, including tax, is $1160. It's the $1160 I itemize in the allowance schedule for my client. I don't show my client my markup or the labor costs to complete the installation . . . the number is there so when my client meets with my mechanical sub, we're all on the same price sheet page.
And before we even got to proposal stage, we've gone over all this so that I have the best possible "level of price and quality" idea for all the goodies. That way I don't come off like Mr. Bozo, and my client can budget per the proposal, and later, the contract.
Gene, don't know why I didn't see your resonse befoe but I just caught up with it. Thanks for the detail and suggestions. I'm probably doing the cabinets and countertops.
"don't make him be a pioneer on your job."My first boss always asked customers, "So! You want to be a pioneer? You know who the pioneers were?""The ones with the arrows in their backs!"David Thomas Overlooking Cook Inlet in Kenai, Alaska
No matter how much you like the GC, and no matter how much you trust him, and no matter how much detailed information and drawings you have, make absolutely sure that you have set aside a comfortable monetary cushion for the unexpected things that WILL arise during the course of the project.
Then, when the cushion is in place, expect to have to use it. There will be changes that will have to be made, cost overruns that were not anyone's fault, etc... Expect them to happen, be prepared for them when they do, and trust the GC to know what to do and how to do it when they show up.
And don't nit pick the guy to death.James DuHamel
He who dies with the most toys.... Still dies!
"For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world, and loses his soul?" MARK 8:36
http://www.godsfreemusic.com
LIMEYZEN,
do you mind sharing some examples of "quality benchmarks"? Did you have to compile the list yourself, or were there any "boilerplate" references you used?
No, it isn't derived from anything but our own concerns/sensitivities but constructing the langauge and format was interesting in that we wanted to avoid anything that smacked of being adversarial but nevertheless conveyed the tolerances of accuracy/finish that are acceptable. One also needs to be careful to speak to "what" not "how".
So, after material and methodology specifications we have added a statement of how we (both us and the GC) will measure acceptance apart from the formal building inspections. For example, under electrical we have said "all rough in, final wiring and appliance or fixture connections to comply with all local and national codes ... addtionally all switches shall be at the same height from sub floor except those noted on the electrician's drawing copy. Same for outlets. Anything more than 1/4" off shall be replaced/relocated at owner's discretion and at no cost to them".
The document is too lengthy (and confidential) to attach here but that's the drift. Additionally we have/are providing individual detailed drawings of things like trim details (custom made), soffit details, spacing of light cans etc. etc. These will be marked with revision number and the contract will reference that and will be updated to reflect any changes in rev#.
Hope that helps.
Thanks, yes it does help. The main 2 messages I hear, are:
... careful to speak to "what" not "how".
...avoid anything that smacked of being adversarial
It's a fine line that I sometimes have trouble with ;) I have a tendency to go overboard on the "how". I suppose if you spec out "how" you still may not get the result you want.
The town I live in (So Calif) has so much building frenzy of very expensive "speculation" homes – not to be confused with "high quality" homes! – that it's going to be tough for me to find any GC or sub-contractors willing to consider any "quality" beyond that required to meet code.
There is too much emphasis on the superficial finishes (eg, granite countertops, tall entry ways, crown moldings) and not much emphasis on whether miter joints stay tight, straight & square walls, ceilings, doorways, weather sealing, water proofing, etc.
Another example, After the extremely heavy So Calif rains of the last few weeks, water has saturated the soil to a depth of several feet. Concrete Foundation subcontractor on a nearby start-from-scratch new home dug footings. The soil at the bottom of footings is still soft from rains. Eventual new Homeowner may surprised when footings on his $1.8Million home start to settle, walls crack, etc. What a mess.
It looks like you have a fairly well detailed plan, contract and communication process, probably based on previous difficulties.For instance, on my last job, I had to call the electrician back because pairs of sconces over mantles in two rooms were off by about 3/4" offset from the mantle. Looked like a drunk had set them, but he doesn't drink, just doesn't think. Methinks he learned to occasioanlly put his mind in gear on that one.Point is - that communication before the fact helps ensure a better job and less agravation for all concerned, but the problem can be that when you get detailed and simplistic enough to tell them everything, you are now insulting the intelligence and ability of the ones worth having. Reducing it to print like that can help avoid emotional reactions
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
"Anything more than 1/4" off shall be replaced/relocated at owner's discretion and at no cost to them"
I think that a high level of specificity will help you get a high quality job. However you will pay for it. I do not normally expect to have the homeowner check the height of the switches/receptacles. When we make the cutouts for the sheetrock we notice how close the tolerances are but that is the only time I have ever checked this. If a customer wants them within 1/4" or I pay, I will include money in my bid in anticipation of a screw-up or I will have this possibility reflected in my hourly rate. In any event the customer pays for this level of service. If it is what you want, you will happily pay it.
Fair enough. How would you feel if the homeowner said "because I want pretty tight tolerances and know that that can cause more time and agravation for you here's a jig (or jigs) I've made up that will help set outlets etc consistently, try them and if you like them keep them"?
Given all the feedback I've been given in other threads and being handy I thought I might do just that. Or would you feel insulted?
"Fair enough. How would you feel if the homeowner said "because I want pretty tight tolerances and know that that can cause more time and agravation for you here's a jig (or jigs) I've made up that will help set outlets etc consistently, try them and if you like them keep them"?"
I'm not quite sure how I'd handle that .... I think your heart is in the right place ...
but that strikes me as normally the kind of customer I want to run from!
Not that I can't tell my electrician ... "this guy is a little "touched in the head" ... and his head will explode if the boxes aren't all 100% level ... so shoot for the stars on this one ...
and he'll simply set up his lazer level or use mine and your boxes will be as close to perfect as humanly possible .... it's just that the thought of a customer thinking that far ahead to actually make up some jig to set their J boxes .... kinda scares me!
I'd be thinking ... that was harmless ... but what else has he over thought.
I'm not sure what my electrician would do either ... I know he'd laugh as soon as I told him ... I'm not sure if he'd play along and accept them ... or just give ya the "crazy man" look and keep working quietly.
I can tell you that once all the work was done .... and U fell in love with his near perfect layout and well thought out switch placement ... and after U took all his suggestions to forget what the "lighting designer" said and went with his layout ... you'd want to call him for any and every electrical job that comes up ...
And he'd politely say Sorry, he's too busy.
I'm not even sure I'm comfortable with the "1/4" deal ... I level and lazer everything. I'm a trim carp first and a remodeling GC second .... crooked drives me nuts .... can't sleep if my stuff is crooked .... all my subs know it ...
All my plumbers helpers know that water lines will be level as they poke out the wall or they will be set again ...
But .... again ... I'd be waiting for that "other shoe" ...
I once had a customer try to hold the final payment for a 40x 15 back porch ...
He got up and measured the cross diagonals .... he said I was 1/4" off!
Maybe that's why the "1/4" bugs me?
Anyways ... that was his complaint. A new porck roof over an existing deck off and old house .... and I was 1/4" off from square!
I said ... thanks for the compliment ... that was pure luck to get that close ... now go write that check or I'll have to kill U ....
Do ya really think you'll notice 1/4" from across the room?
I'd suggest picking the guy U trust the most ... make him perfectly clear on your "expectations" .... let him know that having things both big and small ... like fer instance ... having all the switch plate covers being ... oh .. I dunno ... somewhere within 1/4" level ..... so use a lazer every where possible ....
then ... just stand back and let him work.
Trust ...
very important.
I'm not saying don't mention things along the way ... but don't overcomplicate life.
I stole a "phrase" from the best lead carp I ever worked under/for/with ...
Joe lead big top dollar remodels for demanding customers and a crazy insane fine detail boss ...
every morning Joe would stand with coffee cup in hand ...
Greet the homeowner ... "Another wonderful day we're about to start ..."
then
"Any questions/comments/concerns/issues?"
and he'd end each day with the same phrase.
Seems like a much more relaxed way to go thru a remodel/build ....
Just thinking out loud here ....
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry in Carpentry
Pgh, PA
Sounds like a good tag to me............
Jeff 1/4" Buck!
Hey buddy, can ya spare a 1/4?
EricI Love A Hand That Meets My Own,
With A Hold That Causes Some Sensation.
Jeff, (mine is spelt with a G!) thanks for taking the time to give me your feedback. Of course the 1/4" was a way of testing the waters and something I use as an example of the attention to detail I suffer from! But I draw the line at climbing up onto cross beams etc.
And part of my concern and wrestling with how to make this venture one of partnership rather than adversarial stems from the feedback and commentary I get/see in other threads. It appears to me that there is an assumption in place that the very nature of homebuilding produces a negative relationship with the homeowner. Perhaps you have all been burnt too often and perhaps my way of coming across as "anal - retentive" (it is hyphenated isn't it?) doesn't help and my heritage can get in the way to! <grin>. But your suggestions are great!
I must admit that I am astonished at the latest go rounds and outcomes produced by my post, and replies to others posts, about quality in workmanship. It feels like I'm being told that if I want quality of workmanship, beyond the track home or large SD level, then I should expect to pay 2 - 3 times the going rate. Around here that means paying $300 - $450 a sq ft. To get switch plates level?
Geoff the 1/4" guy? not sure I want that tag, you can have it!
Anyway, I take yours and others suggestions here seriously and will see if I can't move forward on a more cooperative basis. Thanks.
Edited 1/21/2005 9:34 am ET by LIMEYZEN
Edited 1/21/2005 9:35 am ET by LIMEYZEN
It's a fine line to walk ...
and I still say it's only easy "if and when" ya pick the right guy ...
Just pick the right guy , huh ... how hard could that be?
Last year I finished a big remodel for a guy that wanted the best of the best .... and wanted it all perfect. He told me all this up front ... told me flat out that he knows he drives people nuts .... if his wife thinks him to be the biggest pain in the a$$ ... then he was sure his contractor would.
we interviewed each other. He was a very sharp guy .... an Er Doc with medical degrees from both Harvard and Yale .... lived and worked around the world ... one of those people that just strike you as being very very smart in any and everything that caught their attention. He was an info junkie ... read 4 hrs a day .. every day ... said it was a habit from med school he didn't want to break ... also ... only slept for 3 hrs max at a time ... some other theory about that too he had ...
He knew exactly which product he wanted to use for each and every phase ... he researched every little last detail ... then ... once he read it .... photographic mind ... it was locked in. It was fun watchingt him the my electrician work together ...
in the end ... my electircian would give the guy homework ... stuff to look up and compare .. then they'd share notes and make a combined decision.
The guy wanted "perfect" ... was willing to pay for "perfect" .... and knew what he wanted. This also was far from his first remodel ...
could have been a fire pit I walked into .... in the end ....
I have a great referal. One very satisfied customer ... and a guy that was a joy to work with. He had lotsa demands ... but they all made sense. The key was ... he knew he could be a pain ... and he let his demands be know in a very friendly way ... nothing adverserial at all ... always said he was simply a doctor ... I was the expert he hired to build his dream ... in the end ... if I thought there was "one right way" ... it was my way we'd go.
He knew when to lead ... and when to follow.
Your "demands" aren't impossible ... and you could end up with the best job that GC ever created ... it's all in the delivery.
Just thot I'd type back and let ya know there is hope!
With this guy ... our personalities clicked. We understood each other.
In your shoes ... I'd interview the GC's .... first to see how's capable ...
then ... I'd do a second sit down and see how was most compatible.
I was the high bidder. His wife didn't like the first guy ...
came down to me and another much larger/established company. He said they went with me as it seemed I took a much more personal interrest in their job.
btw .. the "extra's budget" someone else mentioned ... 20%.
Either have 20% extra socked away somewhere ... or be prepared to scale back 20% somewhere along the lines ... 20% over budget to get the whole dream is about average.
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry in Carpentry
Pgh, PA
Jeff, I told him to figure 100% more and now I'm more convinced than ever that my figure is right.
He wants his outlets withing 1/4" and it's not unusual to have rough joists that are plus or minus 1/4 inch...when they're wet. When they're drying, it could go either way.
Lime is the kind of guy that should only buy a spec house. He should just keep walking through finished houses till he finds one that is done to his satisfaction. The only problem is, sometimes guys like Lime can't be satisfied....all the little quirky things bother him. Lets face it...if you have to pull out your tape measure, to determine that the outlets are 1/4" off, you have a OCD problem. I mean really.....the plugs are 12' apart and there is a couch between them and a lamp table hiding them...or a huge entertainment center hiding everything.
Someone already mentioned it....those are the kind of guys I run from...and I do too. I know for a fact that there wouldn't be two sticks of rough frame wood good enough in the pile of tenthousand sticks that I just put up on the last house...I only sense a nightmare waiting to happen.
Lime needs to pay the trades hourly and pay a fixed fee to the Builder. No fixed prices...then he can build jigs and hand them to every tradesman in there.
Good grief.....1/4"!
There wouldn't be a cold chance in hell that I'd offer a price after I read a spec like that...even if it only applied to the electrician! I know I'm capable of delivering that level of quality...I'm just not capable of dealing with that kind of personality. Irrational expectations and just enough knowledge to be dangerous....remember, he said the paperwork was too extensive to post in here.....
I'd be doing my best Olympic sprint!
blue
Just because you can, doesn't mean you should!
Warning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. There are some in here who think I'm a hackmeister...they might be right! Of course, they might be wrong too!
Blue eyed devil ... you know what? This is rather like standing in a room and having people talk about and insult you as though you weren't there! At the very least rude. If you want to "talk" to me directly ask for my e-mail address and I'll provide it. I find it interesting that sysop's preamble invites us all, experts and novices alike, to come here ask questions, make points (no matter how stupid) and debate like reasonable people. You know that well known statement? Something about "I may not agree with what you say but I will defend to the death your right to say it" Doesn't seem to always apply here. Perhaps a more applicable one is that "I treat your remarks with the disdain they deserve!" Namaste.
Edited 1/22/2005 8:35 am ET by LIMEYZEN
Limeyzen, don't take things so personal! When you toss out questions and seek opininons, sometimes you'll hear things that you don't want to hear. Do you really want to only hear what you want to hear?
Its okay if you have standards that I couldn't possibly live up to. One of the most important lessons a contractor has to learn is the time to say no and to know their limits. I know that I would never measure the level of outlet boxes to see if their within 1/4". If you approached me and offered me 100% more than what I normally get to build a house, them mentioned that standard, I'd politely decline your offer. If you offered 200%, 400%, 1000% I'd still say no because I don't think/work like that. The height of outlet boxes on normal routine walls simply aren't something that I'd ever give two thoughts too.
I'm not saying that there is anything wrong with you, or your standards...just that I've dealt with people with those same type of standards and I'm not the person that can deal with it. So, I don't offer my services to them. I've learned the lesson Jeff spoke of: trying to fit my style into someone elses style doesn't work out.
You are asking for advice and you've received a fair amount of it. When you seek advice such as yours, it often spawns separate conversations...which is actually of some benefit to youand also some benefit to others. By listening in on our conversation, it gives you some real world insight into how your approach to finding that "perfect" house is going to be received and dealt with.
As far as the email campaign/exchange...no thanks. I spend enough time playing on the computer and I probably wouldn't engage in a lengthy email discussion. I prefer the open forum discussions. Open discussions lead to a lot more imput, both pro and con to any idea presented. I'm willing to take my lumps when I say and think in less than sensible ways and that's one of the primary reasons I post in here...I'm still in the learning phase of my construction carreer. Personal emails aren't very helpful in that regard.
blue
Just because you can, doesn't mean you should!
Warning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. There are some in here who think I'm a hackmeister...they might be right! Of course, they might be wrong too!
Blue...... Well spoken.
Jeff, thank you again. As result of your well made advice I/we are rethinking our direction and have a meeting set up with the GC to go over some of that stuff. Incidently, we decided up front not to put this out to bid but did interview 9 contractors and picked the one we felt most at ease with, after viewing some of his work. In each case we offered to pay for their time, more than an hour, and in each case it was refused. As part of that process we did ask how tolerant/understanding they would be about my attention to detail, would they be prepared to agree on a set of measurable "quality" measurements etc. Mostly it was accepted in good part. Given the tone of other responses I have seen here I will not be futhering this thread and so again thank you for your time and courtesy.
"Do ya really think you'll notice 1/4" from across the room?"The question is would you or any other guys here who make their living in the business notice. I'm sure you would, in fact here are posts here every now and again about how guys have seen "other" guys work and how they themselves would never be so sloppy. Ever notice a picture frame that's not level? We all have, and it was probably off only a degree or 2.Now think about the guy who just spent the $$ to build a house with uneven boxes that he'll have to live with for X years. The thing is, Limeyzen isn't asking for a standard that is hard to meet or reproduce. Instruments exist to measure accurately and everyone owns them! If the electrician has a reason to set boxes oddly, that's one thing. But if they are off out of laziness/carelessness, no one should say that's acceptable.I realize we're just picking on the 1/4" example and honestly I don't like it when people tell me how to do my job. But he's just laying expectations -- easily quantifiable expecations.
I think Buck is right on. You hire a contractor from seeing the quality of work he does. You don't hire a contractor who does work that isn't up to your specs. then try to make him work to your specs.
I worked a job where the home owner came in every night and left yellow stickies everywhere about everything. People thought he was crazy. In fact I think he had more problems from doing that. Your tellling the workers I don't trust you. And if you don't trust them you shoulnd't hire them."The purpose of life is rapture. Here and now"
"here's a jig (or jigs) I've made up that will help set outlets consistently"I got your jig right here. . . .Really. It's called a 16-ounce hammer. And I'm careful to use the same hammer throughout the house for setting outlets.If you could ask the GC or electrician, "How do you set outlet height?" and they have any kind of thoughtful answer, end of story. If they don't understand, then that's a clue to keep shopping.I agree that spec'ing a jig for setting outlets is going to be perceived as a client who knows whether Anal Retentive is hyphenated or not!David Thomas Overlooking Cook Inlet in Kenai, Alaska
David, thanks for the input. For a moment I thought you were going to say you'd use the 16 ouncer on me! See my response to Jeff Buck.
The better electricians I have worked with, even in production homes, had a simple jig for setting consistent outlet height from the floor.
All it consisted of was a couple of 2 x 2's nailed together in a step fashion. There was a location for wall outlets off the floor, wall switches and kitchen counter outlets. Locations that wouldn't be comparable once finished, like whips behind cabinets, were measured with a tape.
The jig brought speed and consistency to the job (both of which were needed on a production jobsite). I do not understand why more do not use something similar.
A quarter inch is a tight standard, but I can pick it out if there are other outlets nearby or some kind of detail that gives a reference point. There is no reason for electrical boxes to be anything but level and plumb. I have crooked outlets in my house, built 30 years ago. Nothing to do about it now without repair work.
However, I would certainly inspect the work before drywall. If it passes muster before drywall, and not after, then you know who to blame. Same goes for the trim work. What is the reference point for measurement? If the trim is off, then the electrical boxes and HVAC outlets look screwed up.
It would be very easy to use the same jig for a pre-drywall inspection, or make one with a +/- 1/4" go/no-go marking. The plus or minus jig would eliminate the "just a little bit off" niggling- if the device falls within the accepted range, it is good- not subject to re-work.
Inspections before things like drywall will also eliminate the finger pointing between trades. If my work was subject to inspection at certain points in a project, I would expect the customer to sign an approval stating such.
I have had to work with detail minded homeowners as both an employee and as a contractor. I have also worked with very picky builders- the ones that will rip out second floor joists to center a can light on a first floor window. I would not be offended if the homeowner or builder gave me a jig for a specific task. It would make my job easier to know exactly what the customer wanted, and it would allow me an easy way to deliver the results expected.