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Rich,
I fully agree with what the siding guy told you, I have also seen aluminum in the valleys buckle. If it’s an open valley and you feel you need to use it, use a light color and a smaller rip of it, maybe 12″. Just put a couple nails in it at the top to keep it there and no more nails through it. Then put your valley material down and the shingles, being careful not to nail through the metal. You shouldn’t be nailing too close to the middle of the valley anyway. If it’s a closed valley of some kind, you don’t need the metal. Good luck.
Red dog
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Rich,
I fully agree with what the siding guy told you, I have also seen aluminum in the valleys buckle. If it's an open valley and you feel you need to use it, use a light color and a smaller rip of it, maybe 12". Just put a couple nails in it at the top to keep it there and no more nails through it. Then put your valley material down and the shingles, being careful not to nail through the metal. You shouldn't be nailing too close to the middle of the valley anyway. If it's a closed valley of some kind, you don't need the metal. Good luck.
Red dog
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Red dog, Just how many valleys have you done that way?
If Rich follows your advice, he'll need a lot more than good luck.
*..........Rich.....I assume ther is a reason you're doing an OPEN valley....if not, do a closed valley....probably a Califonia cut....put a 3' strip of ice & water in your valley no matter what type it is...If your're doing open valley, the metal of choice is lead coat copper, next is copper, next is Aluminum Coil stock (not mill finish)....comes in 24" x 50' rolls..don't use anything less, it can't take the erosion and will hole thru in a relatively short timeI like to make my valley stock NOT continuous...but about 4' long...cut as long a piece as will fit in your break.. make a standing VEE in the middle, about one, to one and half inches high....and put an open upturned hem on each edge..this will turn any water driven sideways from the valley....if you don't have access to a break, don't do an open valley or have your valley sections made up by a tin knocker, or buy it at your roofing supply....cut this into about 4' pieces and lay in in your valley on top of the ice and water, starting at the bottom.. this is secured by a clamp in the school solution...but I just nail it thru te edge as my VEE will allow the expansion and contraction...lap your next section onto the first by about 6" depending on the pitch of the valley...the trick is at the top, comming up with a reasonable saddle or running the ridge shingles over the top...snap a cut line from top to bottom so the valley is about 8" wide at the top and 12" wide at the bottom.lap your shingles over the metal and cut them to this neat line...Go to your roofing supply and tell your salesman you want to become a Certainteed Certified Roofer...Certainteed will send you a manual for you and each of your employees with a school solution to everything you're likely to encounter in asphalt strip shingles....
*Rich,....Mike has given you a pretty good outline on the basic procedure. It is pretty much the methodd I use with a couple of minor variences.1) The Aluminum material is the material I gererally use cause there is a real shortage of customers here that will pay for copper work. I can get it in about 20 different colors and it will easily last longer than the shingles being installed. I think mike has an ocean front enviornment to deal with that I don't face in the Mid-west.(not that I would not like to USE copper you understand,I just am not gonna give it away)2) I bend each section about like Mike says EXCEPT I make my sections 8'-6" long cause thats how long my brake is.The 4 ft. sections Mike installs seems un-nessicarily short....but if that works for him,great....It might work well for you also.( I just haven't tried it that way)3) I generally don't put ice gaurd under a w valley....although it would make an excellent installation. I just haven't found it nessicary in my climate if I do the W valley well. Again,mike prob. has a nastier enviornment to deal with.4) I cut my valleys a lot tighter than mike describes. Prob.exposing no more than 3 inches of metal at the top,maybe 4 inches at the bottom. I break off the sharp corner of each shingle in the valley. this is a detail that does not show at all,yet it saves an unbelievable amount of leaks.I don't nail within 8 inches of the valley center.5)What i have found out about problems from buckeling is that for me the key is to get the w valley flashing straight and absolutely parrallel with the way the valley is framed and decked. Unfortuneately a lot of older buildings sheated with 1x8 have valleys with a "bannana" built into them. this means when you lay your long straight flashing stock into a curved valley ,the flashing will not be parrallel,but rather tangent to a side to side curve.A chalk line strung up will clearly reveal this curve to you.If the curve is particularly nasty then the 4 ft. sections Mike talks about would allow you to more closely follow the framing and eliminate a lot of potential puckers. It will make snapping the final chalk lines and the final shingle trimming a lot trickier to get looking sharp and straight.The W valley is one of those little details that I really enjoy.When I first went into business I pretty much supported my family entirely from Re-flashing valleys and chimneys in the roofing repair market. The "california" valley is frequently poorly done around here and the W valley has never failed me.The W valley is one of those "obsolete" or "Archaic" methods which still pays quite well for the tradesman,and is quite "sellable" to the customer because it offers very obvious benefits and when done well displays workmanship above and beyond the ordinary.(For which you can charge,and the customer is thrilled to pay....KAaaaCHiiing)So, Rich....if you are interested in this type of work you will be well rewarded for learning the technique. If you want to E mail me I would be happy to discuss with you how I price it,sell it,and profit from [email protected]
*Thanks Mike and Steve, for the detailed reply on metal valleys, I didn't have the energy last night to give a complete response when I noticed this post, and Red dog's reply, but I couldn't let his advice stand without comment. I have a 10 ft. brake, therefor my W valley tends to be 10 ft. sections, and I have had no problems with buckling. Some of the local lumber yards sell a very cheap grade of aluminum for valley flashing and it looks and performs terribly. This might be what the siding crew is refering to.John
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JRS,
Just to clarify the procedures I was talking about. On a new roof, I use a closed valley with ice & water shield, 90# valley material, the lower roof side shingles lapped over the valley, and the other side roof shingles cut straight up the valley. If a customer wanted an open valley for some reason, I would make the first piece of material used a strip of aluminum 12" wide and 10' long with a slight bend running down the middle. This is just to protect the valley from some kind of puncture damage. If you refrain from nailing closer than 6" from the center of the valley, you won't put any nails through the metal and therefore prevent buckling of the aluminum. I have used this technique on many valley repairs and don't know of any problems yet. Thanks for listening.
Red dog
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Rich,
I live in Michigan, and have done my house and garage with aluminum in the valeys. I have had no problem with buckling after about 10 years of service. The one difference is that I started with the Ice and water shield, then the aluminum and then a weaved valley. Those suckers will never leak no matter what the weather.
The reason I put the I&W shield on first is that it is supposed to be applied to solid surface. The edge of the aluminum could cause a gap or bubble in the I&W shield and possibly fail when the temp gets hot. The aluminum on top takes care of the guy with the heavy feet in the valley.
Good luck
Tim
*Well for what it's worth, here's how we do 'em. First we don't have ice and snow problems..second we don't sheath.All our valleys whether tile or metal roofs are of steel either zinc or "colorbond". This is folded one piece off site.It is laid onto a valley of two weatherboards ( clapboards??) which support it and anyone walking on it. The two boards also help even out any discrepancies in the valley plane.There has recently come onto the market a one piece valley folded of slighty heavier material which is entirely self supporting..but is a bit of a pest to cut.
*Rich, Steven, Mike, anyone who cares to listen ... which type of valley is your favorite and why? (open, closed, woven...)
*Andrew,if you will allow me,I will answer that in REVERSE order.A) Least favorite is the woven valley. I just don't like the looks of it---to me it looks a bit clumsy and destined to leak.( this is purely my opinion)Also kind of awkward to install since you pretty much have to work both sides of the valley at the same time.B) Closed cut or what I believe a lot of people call "California".Pretty fast to install andd it actually looks pretty good.With it you get one nice sharp line down the valley.In my area there seems to be a common defect in its installation because I have made a nice bit of change over the years repairing roofs other people installed with leaking closed cut valleys.C) W valley or open. Far and away my favorite.Takes longer to install,materials cost more,and some people do not care for the look.( Although when done well I think it looks very sharp). Its biggest attribute to me is that I have never had one leak that I can recall. I used this method so many times to repair others work that eventually I started using it on my new work.I do sub out some work and I let the crew use the closed cut valley.This is the type of valley they are most familiar with,and they use icegaurd as valley flashing which makes it much more dependable than some formerly used materials.Its a case of wanting the actuall installer to use the method he is best at.But when I personally do a valley it will almost always be the W valleyOf course I could be wrong,Stephen
*Thank you all. I apologize for the confusion, I am doing a closed valley. Though at this point, I am not sure that is the better choice. I have opted to not use the aluminum based on what has been posted.Tim, I am curious what gauge aluminum you use. JRS mentions that the gauge matters and the fellow from the siding job talked about a heavier gauge probably working where the lighter gauge doesn't.I appreciate the discussion. Valleys don't get talked about much here (and this thread is awfully short). The last discussion I remember (which I couldn't find) summed up to the weave is bad and open copper is good, with no help in the middle.Stephen, thanks for your kind offer. You will be hearing from me.Andrew, I have not done enough to have an established preference.Thanks again,Rich Beckman
*WE used to do all woven valleys, but then when those wild and crazy guys on the left coast started doing "California Cuts" we switched over...Now with Ice&water I have a lot of faith in almost everything, but I'm with Steve, I don't like a woven and I think the average installer tends to bridge a woven across the valley, so when the next bozo walks up he punches thru the shingles.. It's hard to keep your courses aligned across the valley and you have to lead the job with the weave...so woven is my least...it does put a lot of material in the valley though.....would consider it if I was installing a JET shingle....Our bread and butter is the CC, for all the reasons Steve stated.......We do open valleys when it's spec'd, or when trying to match what the Owner had....I have seen some roofs , not that old that had pin holes and gouges cut thru them by the erosion of the water running down them...kind of like the way a copper downspout elbow gets worn thru on the back bottom where all the rain impacts...OK...here's one...I thot everyone did the same thing ...then I noticed that it wasn't true.......How do most chimneys get flashed where you are (and where are you?)....Here 90% are flashed with lead sheet , stepped up the bricks..........A few are flashed with copper, or lead-coat copper.....
*This topic is yet another on which there ought to be a good book. I've seen what's out there I think and they don't do much more than expand on the shingle rafter with pictures. The amount of thought that many here put into their flashing details is fascinating. On reflection, these details are also the only correct way of doing the work, everything else depends on caulk.Just FYI No. VA economy chimneys are the aluminum wrap and roofing cement method. Not recommended. In nicer neighborhoods I see stepped copper let into the mortar ... but I'll bet it is mostly for looks and that little provision has been made for thermal movement between metal and mortar. Another area driven by ignorance. Our chimney cap was so broken up it had a little tree growing out of it. When I demo'd the chimney I found the roots went down three feet in some pretty good compost.I'd like to see that book ... market it and make it 100% up-to-date with a Web supplement ... get copies in every roofing supply AND Home Depot (eek), maybe a free 'teaser' digest ... discuss regional differences ... address failure diagnostics, etc. I did a teensy weensy woven valley for interest and could see how easy it would be to mess up. Stephen's point about snapping off the protruding corner of valley shingles is a very good one -- that little fragment is enough to send water shooting horizontally right past the valley underlayment. (I like details.)As a RTFM (read the manual) kind of guy i do read shingle and underlayment wrappers. They have a lot of good info, but it is so hard to understand, no wonder people get it wrong or most often just do it the way someone showed them to do it. Don't get me started on what little HVAC I've seen.Trouble is, I'm sure roofers are just as stubborn as carpenters and don't want to be told their business. "But that's the way I've always done it." (!)Everything You Ever Wanted to Know About Roofing But Were Afraid To Ask>-- an Oprah Book Club selection! from the famed "Everything You Wanted To Know" home improvement seriesI know it's nice to have a good idea, but entirely different to step up to the plate and do it. I've been besieged for years by people with all sorts of bright project ideas I should accomplish.
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Mike,
Rochester, N.Y. ....95% of houses have coil stock used for chimney flashing ...normally black but sometimes another color that they think will match the brick or shingle color better ....on Ryan homes or equivalent, it's mill finish roll flashing
Red dog
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P.S. Ghostwriter/editor available. Have wordprocessor, will travel. Substantial cash advance required. :) Coming soon, EYEWTKA personal and public finance (after I figure it out).
*Mike, I am in Akron,Ohio.Aluminum Coil stock....Brown on 1 side,white on the other.I almost always show the brown side,especially alongside nice brickwork.Rarely show white. I do like to use black from time to time,especially with black shingles.Generally I try to color co-ordinate all metal like flashing,slantback vents if used,soil stack flashings etc. we are now able to get soil stack flashings in several colors.I really can't think of the last copper job I have seen---It is so rare here it would almost be newsworthy.I have seen maybe 2 old lead jobs in my life here.The actual flashing details are pretty much like you mentioned-----step flashed,with the counter flashing also stepped and inset into the mortar work.Actually I posted the entire process in another thread back in the summer and as I recall some guys told me I was " Archaic". This reminds of an idea for a thread I have been saving---I will try to start it tomorrow.Andrew----Regaurding your idea for the book......My wife has been nagging me for 6-7 years to write a book pretty much as you describe.She is kind of tired of me stopping and taking pictures or studying roofs when we go on vacation. She says I should write a book,but I tell her I am the only one who would buy it.Apparently you would also buy it,so my potential market has DOUBLED here in one day!There is a book called "The Slate Roof Bible". I figure I am AT LEAST as funny as that author.( I am definitely as opinionated.Good Luck All,and thanks for the laughs...Stephen
*Stephen - sign me up as the third wanna be owner of your book.Our flashing in Washington is the same as Stephen describes - brown/white aluminum step flashing with counterflashing embedded in mortor joints of same material. I have replaced a lot of old galvanized flashing through the years but never seen copper or lead (except on old plumbing vents. We flash skylights (many, many skylights here in the temperate but gloomy NW) and sidewalls with the same stuff.
*.........WOW..OK ...I got a feel that the prevalent flashing is aluminum coil stock for the nice jobs...and mill finish for the not so nice.....I would be run out of town in Rhode Island if I used aluminum on a chimney..Here its a lead apron, a lead corner, and lead steps up the side meeting the lead steps comming up the other side..with one piece in the middle capping the two side pieces...The copper variation is the same except the copper guys have the soldering skills so they would solder some of the joints....And the creme d'la creme is a copper thru-flash where the copper (or lead coat copper ) actually gets installed after the bricks / stonework comes thru the roof and the soldered cap goes thru and turns down inside one of the clay flue liners.. this thru-flash can be in one plane or stepped up the chimney.....I 'd be willing to bet that the old flashings where you guys live would be galvanized sheet metal or tin and the aluminum flashings are from the last 30 years or so...another surmise I would make is that the coastal communities (Rhode Island is just one big bay) had a lot of shipbuilding skills and sheet copper and sheet lead..I'm surprised you don't use lead...do you ever make leaded joints in wooden gutters ?Around here you can tell the guys that want to do a good job but don't own breaks... they make their apron flashings out of lead..everyone who owns a break makes their aprons out of colored coil stock,..black, brown,white , grey and the other colors are starting to show up too...BOOKS: here's two.."Roofing Handbook"by Robert Scharff and the editors of Roofer Magazine (McGraw Hill)tools, staging, safety, every kind of roof you can think of....enough to point you in the right direction to asking the right question...and...the manual for the "Master Shingle Applicator" from Certainteed.. this is 180 pages 8 1/2 x 11, it's in its 4th edition. and its free...you get it by going to your roofing supply and asking the Certainteed Rep. to sign up you and your guys for the course...which is also free.. and you get the manual even if you don't do the course...this one is limited to all kinds of strip shingles and rolled roofing but it also covers estimating, repairs, flashing, safety and ventilation....I would recommend both for the General Contractor who does the occasional roof....it's so competitve around here that if you don't do roofs...you don't work...or you're at the mercy of the roofers...and except for the big guys (10 trucks, been in business for a hundred years......or 30 trucks and been in business for 10 years)..most of the straight roofers are fly-by -night....or they don't charge enough to operate a business.......
*Stephen,I'm curious as to what the "common defect" is that you find in closed cut valleys?Jerry
*Jerry,this would be much easier to show in person but I will try to describe it here.In a closed valley first you shingle one side laying a full shingle all the way across the valley. you will stagger the preceeding shingles in each course using 1 tab,2 tab or full shingles to make sure that you end up with a full3 tab shingle laying across the valley. So far so good.when you do the second side you use much the same technique only the last shingle doesn't need to reach across the valley----your gonna trim it off with your hook blade any how. You only need the top corner of the last tab to reach the center of the valley. Often I find in the leaking valley that in several locations the roofers last full shingle is short of that position so he simply nailed on a single tab. This means the single tab is nailed in the exact wrong spot(within 6-8 inches of the valley center). The ironic thing is that the roofer didn't save himself any work.He still needed to nail on a full shingle and a single tab----he just should have reversed their positions in the course.Also,you want to put a little thought into which side of the valley you shingle first. Generally you don't want the larger roof section draining into the valley and UNDER the shingles on the smaller side.Sorry if that was clear as mud.It is much easier to show in person.good Luck All,stephen
*Yeah, real hard to find good roofers here. Seems the good ones are too busy unless you build 10 houses a year. I pretty much have to plan on doin' them myself for the little additions I do. Then if I can get a roofer, all the better. Tough trade to deal with.
*That was clear Stephen. But I have a couple questions. You say the top corner goes to the center of the valley, do you ever cut that line back an inch or so from the center of the valley, to give the water a smooth through to run down? Do you cut "points" on the overlying shingle? - Thanks - jb
*Thanks much Stephen; your description was great and it sounds like I'm doing it right.Jim, I cut down the center of the valley and I trim the points of the underlying shingles. Comments Stephen?Jerry
*Thanks much Stephen; you description was great and it sounds like I'm doing it right.Jim, I cut down the center of the valley and I trim the points of the underlying shingles. Comments Stephen?Jerry
*I cut the line a little out of the center of the valley,maybe 3/4" or 1".I run the top corner of the tab to the center line of the valley BEFORE I cut it.( That extra 3/4" or 1" of material makes the long valley cut a lot easier.When I dub the top corner of the shingle the point being removed is not visible,since it is the top edge of the shingle and is covered by the next courses tab.The reason I want the line cut a little out of the center,and the top corners clipped off ,is that I do not want all the water in the valley running along the cut edge( and especially past any sharp shingle points).Imagine what happens when you are turning on a lathe....the material is moving fast(in this case the water running down the valley)As soon as the cutting tool touches the material(in this case the cutting tool would be the sharp point of a shingle) a long shaving is removed and diverted. In the case of the valley....the sharp point of the shingle can "cut" a portion of the valley water loose and divert it back under the shingles. An un-ddubbed shingle corner can draw water back along the top of its course maybe 10 ft. or so.In fact the eventual leak sometimes will appear so far away from the valley that sometimes it is hard to believe it is even coming from the valley.In cool weather you can sometimes carefully take the shingles apart and trace the water marks all the way back to the source.Hope that helps,stephen
*Jim,from my view point the problems are scheduling and a little common respect.I get calls from builders who say" hey,we just set trusses yesterday and we should have this roof sheated by about 2:00 today. Can you roof it tomorrow?"---This is from guys I have never met and yet they want me to re-arrange my schedule to suit them at the drop of a hat.think about it----the guy is building a house selling for maybe $215,000,and he is willing to hire a roofer he has never met,simply because that roofer is available tomorrow.I bet he had his framing crew lined up before ground was broken. I bet he let his plumber,electrician,block layer,drywall guy----everybody have a little advanced notice. They may not have known exactly when the job was coming,but they knew for a few weeks the job was in the pipeline.Now what kind of guy are you gonna get thats available on a 24 hour notice that you have never met,and know nothing about?Lets say a decent roofer has a backlog of roofs to do on existing houses.He also gets a nice stream of calls for repair work and has to give estimates on additional work several times a day. If a guy like I described above calls and wants me to drop everything to help him out at the drop of a hat---it just ain't gonna happen.but imagine if he calls me up a month in advance and says" hey ,I am building this house in xyz allotment and I think it will be ready for you about the last week of June." Now I know its there and whats coming. the builder can call me periodically ,or I can check in with him every so often to see if it is on schedule. I can work his job into my schedule with a minimum of fuss so that when the time comes I could be there with in about a day or so.What does this cost the builder? 3or 4 phone calls of a couple of minutes each.Ps,I think you are smart to plan on doing it yourself.A roofer who does a lot of repair work might have the flexibility to pick up your smaller addition roof but the pricing might be the sticking point.Good luck All,stephen
*Yup. That's what I've bee doin' ever since an old roofer showed me about "pointing" those valley shingles in the early 80s. I was hopin' that's what you would say. I always put a bead of Atco roof goop under that edge that creates that line in a valley too. May be overkill, but water can do a lot of damage, to wood and to my reputation.
*You're right. Good roofers are in great demand and tryin' to get one on short notice is chancey at best. Fact is, it is a hard profession and I can see why so few folks stay in it long enough to get really good at it. I have just found them to be harder than any other sub to find. Probably just the local situation here in this rural community we live in.
*Hi Guys,Seems like a big problem with the comp valleys is that people (read homeowners) walk up them. Then the comp tears and voila a leak.W valley is my choice and can be had as a stock item all over town or made specifically by color, size, and angle by local shops. I use a gage block and trim as i go leaving an even exposure of valley metal on all the valleys. Doug fir needles don't accumulate as bad in an open valley. Another thing i do is switch from right handed shingling to left handed if it will reduce my cutting and insertion of tabs as i go up a valley. In other words i sometimes change my stairstep to left handed if that steps the shingles parralel to the valley.In my opinion the ice and water shield should definetely be adhered to the sheeting and not on top of any subsequent layer.joe d
*...Joe D...good point about the debris washing out of an open valley better...course I usually point out to homeowners that if they got that much debris on their roof they should get some major pruning..I like the block idea too....thanks..
*I like the gauge block idea too. I bet it would really be helpfull in the case of a valley that has a bit of a bannana in it. the block would allow a consistent reveal the entire length of the valley.I think it might be slower than snapping a chalk line and cutting the whole run at once though.Picking up and putting down the knife and the block on each course would eat up some time. Gotta try it on a curve though.Stephen
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Silly me asked about doing valleys at the lumberyard. They said start out with the 20" wide rolled aluminum, then the ice shield, etc. The aluminum is to give it strength if someone steps on it. So I do the two valleys that way. Then the guy stops by from the siding crew next door and tells me how he spent a lot of time last summer redoing valleys because the aluminum buckled, and he doesn't use it anymore.
There are two more valleys still to do. Which way do I go?
Thanks.
Rich Beckman