Replies

1. 
   Mark_Mc | May 25, 1999 07:56am | #5

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   Forget about crossing out clauses. If they are thinking down this line you don't want to do business with them. Sounds like his other sideline is as a lawyer. We just got backcharged $464.00 for some gas fireplace logs. Doesn't sound like there is much we can do about it. Think our price is going up on the next project. Run away!!!!!

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   Guest_ | May 25, 1999 08:08am | #6

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   ha ha ha ahaa haaa haha haahahhhhha.
   You want to work for this guy. The slave trade is illegal, and besides. You have to feed, cloth and house them. I would laugh aloud at him. If we all did that he wouldn't have the guts to pull out that contract...he'd just rip us off like the rest of the sheisters. Be grateful he gave you a warning as to his true character.

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   Guest_ | May 25, 1999 08:35am | #7

   *Funny thing is, the contractor probably couldn't explain half of the verbage in the contract if you asked him to. I see some crazy terms in these preprinted "contracts," which aren't negotiated deals at all. I debate whether to sign depending on whether I think it will cause trouble and whether I think they could ever collect for less expense than the money they're seeking. They often hope to intimidate you by waving the contract in your face after something goes wrong, saying "you signed this!!!" even if the terms are simply illegal. It is a pain in the neck.A basic rule in contracts is that a contract that allows one party to do whatever the heck they want is not a contract at all -- both parties have to give up something. Spell U-N-E-N-F-O-R-C-E-A-B-L-E But be careful!!!!

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   Guest_ | May 25, 1999 08:49am | #8

   *Looks like a practical example of the business discussion in another Btime thread. Always got to think and act on multiple levels, carpenter, businessman, manager, etc.Most of those levels would prompt me to shred the slave contract, put the remains in an envelope and mail back to him.Of course if I'm the General then if I can find someone who isn't thinking to sign something like that then good on me. After all until someone calls the bluff what's the harm in starting the negotiations from a one sided position?

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   Guest_ | May 25, 1999 10:02am | #9

   *That ain't square dealin' in my book. - yb

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   Guest_ | May 25, 1999 06:37pm | #10

   *I too am in the completion stage of a large contract with one of the local GC's. Their contract was very one sided and basically left me hanging in the cold cold wind if anything should happen to them, the owner, the man on the moon etc. What I did was type up an addendum and tell the PM that I could not do the job without his signing of the addendum. He did so with very little hesitation. I guess I was still the lowest bidder. If you would like a copy of this, email me. It might give you some ideas.I think these contracts that the GC's put out are extremely one sided but at the same time are generic cover-their-ass documents. You might find that after all that intimidating legal gobledy gook, they really aren't all that hard to work for. Truth be told, they probably don't even know what most of their own contracts mean.Pete Draganic

2. 
   Guest_ | May 26, 1999 04:10am | #11

   *It's not an AIA 2401 (is that the right number?) is it?Andrew and Pete do have a point: could it be that the contract is boilerplate? On the otherhand, the only "difficult" contract I ever ran across was from a firm whose partners were attorneys. After starting the job, the landscaper told me to CYA because the partners took it to an artfrom in how to put your money in their pockets. Beware.

3. 
   Guest_ | May 26, 1999 09:28am | #12

   *No Rich as hard as those things are writen the stuff I've been getting is worst then that.It's just not or two but I have 6 of these things setting on my desk now that I'm working on. The idea was to help cover some upcoming down time. Granted all of these are for production trim jobs. Put after seeing these come in writen so one sided I'm ready to build some sheds and do some spec stuff. Around here the talneted labor pool is drying up and as always good people are hard to find and keep. We are on the upper part of the price scale and have always been able to stay busy with stuff. Latelt I've noticed that the guy's are slowing down on simple stuff and thought that a little down and dirty would help with some of the newer guy's. Besides 70% of our work now is coming from three GC's and I don't want to get caught if one has problems. (ie the too many eggs in one basket thing) Well I'm set meeting with these people and have been adding to there contract's to cover my a**.

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   GACC_DAllas | May 27, 1999 07:30am | #13

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   I know I'm not alone, but I've been doing trim work on very high-end homes here in Dallas for ten years now with a crew of 15. I have never been asked to sign a contract ( all our work is cost-plus ) and I have never been ripped off. I sign lein waivers for each check I receive, and have never had a problem with a GC. My rule of thumb is "know who you are working for". If a GC I don't know wants me to sign a contract I don't understand, I would think more than twice about his motives. Maybe it's the high-end market, but I find that any builder of good standing is not out to rip you off. He can make more money off you by doing fair business than he can if he steals from you. Maybe I'm lucky. My lack of a contract drives my lawyer friend crazy, but I have found that if I know who I'm working for ( the building community is very small even in a city as big as Dallas )there is no problem. Just be careful whose business you solicit.

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   Guest_ | May 27, 1999 09:46am | #14

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   I think he should say U-P-Y-O-U-R-R-E-C-T-U-M

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   Guest_ | May 28, 1999 08:04am | #15

   *Wow, someone still does business on a handshake. But you are in a niche market, and it sounds like a nice one.

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   Guest_ | May 28, 1999 08:08am | #16

   *AndrewI too(o) still do business "on a handshake". . . only got burned once for a couple of hudred$$, I knew the guy was a low life but took the job anyway, only the last check bounced, and is still bouncing-pm

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   Guest_ | May 30, 1999 10:04am | #17

   *A salesman once told me a contract isn't worth the paper it is printed on ( a company had just cancelled a big computer contract).If you need a piece of paper to prove that you are going to play fair, then the company that has the longest staying power is going to win anyways.I have always worked on a handshake.And I usually get paid. There have been a few mickel dime incidents. Of course, since I can't take the guy to court, I lose. In the short term.In the end I win. With interest.blue

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   Guest_ | May 30, 1999 02:30pm | #18

   *I'm pretty smalltime, but in 20 years or so of doing this I have never used any sort of contract.Strictly verbal, and don't go too long before you get paid.

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   Guest_ | May 31, 1999 04:43am | #19

   *Written contracts are actually required here for work exceeding $50, not that anyone knows the rule. I'd think it a useful rule when folks are later confused over what the price included, what color was chosen, etc. But a contract hardly creates trust in a relationship, it's true.

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   Guest_ | May 31, 1999 05:42pm | #20

   *Handshakes and trust...customers and friends for life....Absolutely better than paper.Near the stream,j

4. 
   Guest_ | May 31, 1999 10:28pm | #22

   *Bill,Forget about him. Be happy there was a warning.Let's get the guys here to help develop a standard GC-Sub agreement that we can present to GCs when we want to enter into a marriage. Some pre-nuptual agreements.I'm feeling a little squeemish about my present relationship and would like to have a written agreement. I'd like to develop one that I'd sign as a Sub or a GC.Dan

5. 
   Guest_ | May 31, 1999 10:28pm | #21

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   I've started to seak out new work from GC's for trim and casework. Everone loves us until I read there contract for subs. These things are so one sided no one would enter into them. Any body else out there seeing these worthless things

1. 
   Guest_ | May 25, 1999 07:24am | #1

   *I discovered that almost half the carpenters in our area...The Boonies, can't read. Mabee they are just trying to monopolize on ignorance. I would think it's just a control issue. I thought there was a shortage of talented carpenters in the US. What kind of terms.

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   Guest_ | May 25, 1999 07:37am | #2

   *Lawrenace how about telling you to remove someone from your crew with out cause. Just because the GC say's so.The GC can back charge anything without informing the sub. With the back charge cost to whatever the GC say'sThat the sub will protect all work untill the owner accepts work.The sub will be responable for any damage to trim or case work from anyone on the job.Warranty on all work is for one year or what ever the owner wants it to be when he buy's the house or it sells to the new owner.The sub will do all change orders as directed and the GC will pay what he thinks it's worth.The GC wants 30 days net with lump sum payment. If he wants he can hold payment for another thirty days if work hasn't been inspected.The GC can hold retainage for 90 days no instrest and he wants 25% for retainage.The GC wants a hold harmless wavier in the event he doesn't get his money.Want to sign your name to one of these?

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   bullet | May 25, 1999 07:41am | #3

   *preposterous. get out your red pen and start crossing out clauses.

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   Guest_ | May 25, 1999 07:54am | #4

   *Can you say A-D-D-E-N-D-U-M