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Need to decide which propane-fired boiler/heating system. Burnham? Buderus? Teledyne?
And water heater? Tankless? Conventional? Unit that comes with boiler (can’t remember correct technical term and don’t have the brochure handy ..).
Reliability is an issue as closest service source will be about 2 hours away.
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Tina -
I don't have a wide range of experience to compare one brand to another; all I can say is I've installed quite a few Teledyne-Laars boilers, including two Mini-Combo boilers, which is Teledyne's one unit boiler and hot water heater. I think that they are high quality pieces of equipment, reliable and simple to plumb and wire. I would install one in my own house anyday. If you have any specific questions on Teledyne boilers I will try to answer them as best I can.
*Tina(the "cow" girl),If I was speccing for a client in your situation.........I would probably recommend a cast-iron boiler with off the shelf gas valve and controls (Buderus or Burnham) and a standby gas hot water heater. I would also deliver an extra boiler aquastat and gas valve just in case. I would also opt for "standing pilot" instead of an electronic ignition.I would NOT PLUG IN the draft diverter as this blows an internal fuse in the Honeywell Control. You won't miss the 3-4 points in efficiency. Definitely go for the indirect storage heater off the boiler. Have your mechanical contractor set up the standard water heater in parrallel/series and FULLY EXPLAIN the entire near-boiler system and component replacement procedure to both you and your husband. I would go so far as to actually dissassemble and reassemble all boiler controls and record the entire procedure on videotape.....just in case?Another thing: Invest in an inexpensive power inverter (12 volt to 120 volt--like you use in the car for your laptop?) and also two 12 volt batteries that you keep charged specifically for your system/indirect pumps. Need I say more?Of course, you realize, I could be wrong. I don't really know whether you are building a castle of 3,000sf or a shack of only 10,000sf. I really don't even know what your heat loss or outdoor design temperature is.Whatever you choose, treat the system like a fifth generation Packard and make sure you are comfortable with doing all the maintenance/repairs yourself.I consult/teach radiant floor heat and near boiler on location and have a certain soft spot in my heart for cows.( especially run 'em thru the kitchen, knock their horns off and wipe their ass----MEDIUM RARE PLEASE) Are you listening?PS: I am not condemning copper fin tube boilers. I just like the simplicity of a boiler that doesn't require large amp draw pumps to ensure a minimum flow thru the TX.
*Thanks Nick and jjm... house is approx. 3000 sf. We make our own AC power with solar array, two stacked trace inverters, with a 12k Kohler propane generator automatic backup (220 system ...sorry, electricity is my husband's expertise, not mine). Are you saying we should have a SEPARATE inverter for the boiler, or were you suggesting that assuming we were on the grid? Is the Teledyne boiler not cast-iron like the Buderus and Burnham? SInce we make our own power, issues such as "large amp draws" are important. We're installing an Envirotech masonry heater/fireplace which we hope will radiantly heat most of the house most of the time (it's centrally located, freestanding). Good southern exposure. In winter, nights can get very cold, down to -20 or so, but days warm up nicely well above freezing most days. (same latitude as L.A. but without the smog).Am thinking slim radiators, such as those from Veha, rather than baseboard panels (such as Runtal) will be more efficient. Is this correct thinking?Appreciate the help...if all else fails, we can always move the cows into the house...nothing like a little methane...And we rarely eat our cows -- the steers make the best steaks. (hope this doesn't start a string of bad sexist jokes....)
*Yes, I was assuming you were on the grid (well, most of the time). I am awaiting permission from one Dale Pickard-Radaiant Engineering, Inc to forward you a copy of an article he recently wrote for one of our trade magazines. I think you will be very interested in the content. Explains the stategy for choosing a boiler, controls and pumps when using storage batteries and inverters.In my opinion, Dale is second to none when it comes to solar and off the grid technology. He has had a very successful practice in the Northern Rockies.Jeff
*JEFF -- that was a great article. For anyone remotely interested (sorry about that)...a must read. We'd covered all the issues, but hadn't thought about the drain that all those controllers could put on our inverters. I'll need to read it a few more times (got all tied up in knots trying to figure out what he meant in the meaty section on boilers and controllers) and my husband will chew on it too, when he gets back from moving out another load of animals (the last of the horses, 3 barn cats, 2 dogs...and a partridge in a pear tree).When he talks about the water heater, he says the basic pilot-lit water heater is simplest (we're not doing solar hot-water)...what does that mean in relationship to the boilers that have attached water heaters? And does his boiler discussion rule out the Burnhams and Buderuses? Or just their Honeywell controllers? I'll review it again and see if I can sort it out. And also look for info on the boilers he mentions (V....). By the way, our inverters are top-of-the-line Trace sine-wave models...so that should help avoid some of the problems mentioned in the article.Thanks again for sending it..!
*Tina,My suggestions were made assuming you were "on the grid" with possible frequent power outages and lacking local mechanical service providers. The "off the grid" situation would probably call for a slightly different set of design parameters which I am not qualified to comment on.Contact Dale. He is extremely knowledgeable and qualified to treat your heating and power situation with an "integrated system approach". I have spent many profitable hours picking his brain on various energy/HVAC subjects. He has saved me more than I can count with his perspective and advice. He also can provide you with Viessmann propoganda. In fact, he is a Viessmann supplier.I don't know what his arrangement is with the publisher of the tradezine but I will try my best to get his permission to post it here on Breaktime. I agree it would make for some very interesting/lively conversation.Good Luck,Jeff
*Tina,I have a similar situation also except that my fuel is oil. For oil I feel that Buderus is the best choice. Eazy to clean yourself and a lot less money than big orange. I use a Rielo burner because it uses a lot less of my solar produced electricity than the other burners. With gas or propane the boiler mfgr. is less important, most are good but stick with all cast iron. I know that Buderus makes power burner gas boilers but I don't know if they make atmospheric burner boilers, I will have to check with my supplier. You may want to use a gas valve from an RV furnace or a dual rated 24VAC/ 12VDC valve if you can find one. I think White Rodgers made the dual rated one but it was over 8 years ago when I saw it. I have never looked for 24VDC gas valves so if your battery is not 12 Volts,I will have to look further. Ivan labs in Florida makes a brushless DC circulating pump that uses 5 or 10 watts. I would use that instead of AC pumps. I use a Buderus indirect hot water tank on my boiler but I reccomend the Ecomax indirect tank most of the time unless there are space restrictions (the Buderus horizontal tank fits UNDER the boiler).I also use the Trace inverter (SW2512 with 4000 AH battery bank).Where are you located, what is your array and battery size, how big is your house and how well insulated is it?We use 3 "heater cats" for back-up heat, all former strays.Are you going to or are you in the National Tour of Independant Homes next weekend?Ron
*JEFF -- Thanks. Heard from Dale and he's been great. Have asked him to send along Viessmann propaganda. Posed a question to him you might have thoughts on...does our altitude (8200 ft) affect boiler performance (since boiling temperature of the water is significantly lower -- don't even ask how long it takes to make a good pot of beans!)RON -- a point that the article Jeff sent is that the controllers for new propane boilers are real power draws (hang on, I'll get to our power setup in a second) -- author says the equivalent to the power of one solar panel 24 hrs/day. Recommends standing pilot. Do Burnham or Buderus have such a creature?Now, to your other questions. The house is approx 3,000 sf on one level (which includes large (8x10) unheated pantry). There's a basement (approx 1500 sf) that came with the site (that's how I like to think of it) which we would like to provide some heat to, especially in the kennels (25x13), as it can get mighty frosty out here (-20, -30) but for brief periods, rarely during the day. We're same latitude as LA, in NM mountains at 8200 ft. We hope our main source of heat to be our Envirotech masonry heater, which is located in center of house (which is roughly square). House isn't insulated yet -- we just got the roof on. But will insulate as much as we can, sills, etc. No radiant floor heat, just baseboard/radiators (any thoughts there?)Our power comes from 16 solar panels (don't know their power..think they're Siemens) going to 24 big-ass batteries (that's a very specific technical term) and 2 stacked Trace SW5548 sinewave inverters for a 220v system. Does that sound right? Our backup is a 12K Kohler propane generator. SYstem is designed to carry household load (2 people) but not barn/shop tool loads -- that's where generator will kick in most often. I'd like to add, if necessary, a wind generator to make it a true hybrid system.Our backup heat comes from 6 "heater dogs" (you know it's cold if it's a 6-dog night!) when they're not in their kennels.National Home Tour... what's that?
*Tina,Go to http://www.ases.org/hometr/statenm.html orhttp://www.ases.org/solarIts this weekend all over the US.I see that your DC system is 48 volts. I will have to look into that further, 12v and 24v controls are a lot more common. Floating a couple of golf cart batteries off of a DC-DC converter just to run the heating system may be a possability. If you insulate well enough you may be able to use a tankless hot water heater as your boiler. Most of them are standing pilot. I would want as foolproof system as possable to keep anything from freezing if you go away in the winter.Ron
*Just discovered Buderus makes standing pilot boiler. Also, we see this heating system as a backup, not primary, to masonry heater most of the time.
*Tina,Will propane be your primary hot water fuel? What are the summers like, will you need A/C?Ron
*Ron -- propane for stove, hot water, boiler. Summers are gorgeous -- highs sometimes in 80s, never need A/C. Nights cool. Winters -- nights can get very cold, down to -20 or so, but days warm up considerably. Usually above freezing.
*Good to hear you hooked up with Dale.Almost all CI boiler manufacturers have Standing Pilot models available.YES, 99% of gas appliances must be derated for altitude 2000 feet above sea level. The other 1% according to my sources, you really don't want to consider.BTW, what is it that makes steers better tasting than cows on the ole Weber? Enlighten me.Grain-fed?Mesquite fed?Tumbleweed? (sage is for the Thanksgiving fowl)Lived in the West for years, really missed good grain-fed beef. Especially when we would get those "care packages" from our farm folks in the midwest.Meat and tater type guy,Jeff
*JeffSend me a copy too ...tedd
*Jeff -- re:meat and taters...As long as you fatten them both up young, steers and heifers are equally good. BUt a COW, which is older (has had at least one calf), is like any older animal -- generally tougher meat. The packing houses like steers because, just like in people, the muscling is different (only steers can throw a baseball the right way). ANd these days, consumers seem to want leaner beef, which again favors steers. The BIG difference will show in how they're fed (we use a combination of corn, oats, some hay). Also, we minimize any gristle by making sure we've given no vaccination shots (when they're babies) into any of the good cuts -- so all needles go forward of the shoulder into the neck, preferable not into any muscle, even there. Was that more than you wanted to know?
*Tina,Yep! said the lovely Michelle when she read your post.Her side of the family are ranchers in Idaho and Utah. I am obligated each Spring to go to the land of not much beer and glue my ass to a saddle for a week to move cattle from winter range to summer(BLM) range. I hate cutters with a passion(that is another story-not pretty!)Meanwhile, back at the ranch, I usually draw the short straw and have to participate in cutting out and wrangling to the sage, shooting "scour rockets" down the throats of some pretty mangy stinking calves. Years ago, we administered combiotic or scour shots. Not anymore, I didn't realize exactly why they shifted from injections to oral and suppository treatment. I was given some cockamamy bullshit story by her brothers. I assumed they were telling the truth and it was because of my clumsiness and I was costing them too much by shooting myself with the syringes instead of the calves. Now I know!!!Thanks,JeffPS: Good thing they don't draw straws for AI duty, I would probably swear off beef in any form!!!
*Jeff -- we bought a four-wheeler this summer and as much as I hate to admit it, don't know why I need to get on a horse anymore...can cover 30 miles in a day, with cowdog on back rack, rested until needed to work. And this "horse" doesn't get tired or thirsty, either, and doesn't need shoes, worming, hay, etc. Just an occasional oil change and some unleaded gas.
*jj,I am very interested in improving my boiler knowledge as I have three to install pronto...Please share the wealth of info with us all...near the stream,aj
*ad jack,You are one fortunate fellow.Three to "install pronto"?I am at your service. Where would you like me to be Monday morning and tell me what type of boilers they are (so I can be prepared).For you, I will give a special rate.....$80.00 an hour plus travel. We both make out, right?I'll damn betcha by the time we get done warming up the shacks, they are gonna think we's fit for their daughters.Give me a call jack.......740.622.6603 I WANT to help!!!!That was shameless promotion, I admit. If Jack needs help, he can call me. I won't charge him.[too much]The rest of you sleazes can burn in hell before I would tell you which end of the fuse to light. [g]Jack?
*You are a "pris" Tina.I don't see how you could ever show your face again in the Manhatten crowd? Shame yourself in the face of "purity".[g]Got any photo's of those "Soho" beefs?Mama is looking. Wanna' trade for a Longaberger Basket?
*This thread is pretty old already and appears to have gone from "a little bit boiler" to "a little bit country", but hopefully there's still some life in the discussion.Buderus. What's all this talk about Buderus? Our house is heated by a Buderus pilot-less boiler. Buderus domestic hot water tank and Buderus controller. Lately we've been having problems with the pilot igniting when required (waiting for a newly designed pilot assembly to arrive which is supposed to fix things). I missed the finer points of the discussion over pilot lights and Honeywell controllers. Could you pass on any information??Thanks,Scott
*Scott -- sure is an old thread, but nothing like a New Year's Crash to bring it back to life. We've decided against any central heat at this time (a long story), so don't know what the "beef" was with Buderus.But...Jeff McGough! Just read your last post on this thread...somehow never got it or got to it when you posted it 3 months ago or so. A pris, eh? You already know what 30 miles in the saddle feels like. My husband and I ranch this place alone -- 24 sections (square miles)...we need all the help we can get, even if mechanized! If you want to see pictures of those beefs, go to my website.
*Tina,Rough life for a big city girl, eh?Sure I know what 30 miles in the saddle feels like.I also know what it feels like to scrape off a couple dozen feet of sage brush and then have to walk 20 miles back to the barn.Horses and I don't get along anymore.[g]
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Need to decide which propane-fired boiler/heating system. Burnham? Buderus? Teledyne?
And water heater? Tankless? Conventional? Unit that comes with boiler (can't remember correct technical term and don't have the brochure handy ..).
Reliability is an issue as closest service source will be about 2 hours away.