Okay, as usual I want to do something I probably shouldn’t–am entering the downtown development authority’s summer sculpture competition–and I want to make the sculpture (a dragon) out of a framework covered with cloth. If I just dip the cloth in varnish (oil-based? water-based?) and drape it on the skeleton, will that work? I’d rather use varnish than epoxy, because epoxy is a pain to work with (so is polyester resin, but not as bad as epoxy–not sure I can afford epoxy either!). I’m mainly wondering if the varnish will sort of glue the fabric to the framework (I would also wire or staple it) and if it’ll glue layers together and if it will keep sun and rain from ruining the fabric. (Would like to keep sun from fading and bleaching the color out and degrading the fibers.)
Was just hoping someone has tried this themselves before I spend time and effort experimenting!
Hope this is the right category for this discussion. Would Tavern be better?
Replies
You may want to ask over at threads, I'd ask my sister but she is out of town, Any way she has done several rug cloths for her house you paint a design on canvas then clear coat in and use them as a floor covering. One she has used ouside on her deck for several year and is now just needing to replace it.
Any way when it came to clearcoating it I think her instructions said polyurthane she asked me which one is best I told her to use varathane Diamond Exterior. I think that is what she did. I could varify when I talk to her next.
Wallyo
But the canvas floor clothes are for inside.Anyway, I'm interested in doing some floor clothes, particularly a long runner for our hallway. I'd love to hear what your sister has to say about her experience, particularly where she got the canvas, how many coats of primer, and what type of paint and primer she used. And where she got her patterns from.She can e-mail me directly, if you don't want to be in the middle, [email protected]
I will get the info for you but she did one for inside one for outside and it worked.Wallyo
Outside painted floor cloth! That is so cool. I'm anxious to hear what she has to say.
Might look into this .
http://www.artistterms.com/acrylicgesso.htm
Here is a bit more info on the stuff.
http://www.aisling.net/journaling/gesso.htm
Or you could use the old time recipe for wood/canvas canoes
http://www.canoeshop.ca/enamel.html
Edited 1/21/2008 4:45 pm by dovetail97128
Thanks for the links. I thought about using gesso, modeling paste, auto body filler and so on, but want the fabric color and texture to show, so probably a clear gesso or clear varnish or glaze would work. I'd forgotten that enamel (as in the boat article linked) is pigmented varnish--if I could find transparant enamel, I'd be all set.
I wanted to use the idea I used before (given to me by a Breaktimer) where I added artist's oil paint to varnish--that really turned out well. Actually, come to think of it, I guess the fabric color/texture don't really need to show through. But fabric would be easier to stretch over a framework than other things, although I've also played with expanded metal (lath) and that works pretty well and is strong.
When I painted my "block sculpture" with gold metallic paint and then used clear varnish with alizarin crimson mixed in, it looked fantastic--like burnished bronze. That would make a pretty cool looking dragon, I'd think! Was thinking of making the wings and fins so light could pass through though. Gotta settle on one idea--that's my "problem" with art work is that I get flooded with ten thousand ideas and then have to settle on one and make it happen!
I's like this dragon to be like ten fet high, but (they apparently remmebered my ten foot high block sculpture!) they set the limit at 5 feet tall and 4 feet long and 3' wide (pretty much determining the proportions too--dragons will probably all be rearing up, rather than being coiled or long.
If cost isn't an object look into ballistic nylon and polyurethane finish. My son has made kayaks out of the stuff and if left un-pigmented it does pass light. Pigmentation is available for it. I will see if I can find the link that he sent me before for the material .
Or you could try searching the photo thread for it. I posted some pics of some of his boats there and posted a link to a supplier with the thread.
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
Here is a pic of one of my sons boats that shows the translucent cover. Ballistic nylon and 2 part urethane filler/finish. http://www.flickr.com/photos/thaddeusss/537725218/
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
Thanks for the link. Looks pretty cool. Unfortunately, the store I look in only had primary colors of Nylon fabric, though I may be able to special order of find online or something.
As I was writing my proposal today, I got to thinking about wind on the Styrofoam wings, so will have to reinforce the daylights out of those and probably supply sort of "blow-out panels" or spring loaded flaps so strong winds don't fly the dragon to parts unknown! I think vents covered with spring loaded Nylon cover flaps could really add to the thing--make it move and look alive. At one point wanted to attach the eyes through skull to horns that would move a bit in the wind and look cool, but a lot of work to do that!
dovetail,
An umiak? Does he have a connection to the north? He will certainly know the book I referred to above. Might have worn out a copy.
Ron
ron, Yes, it is an umiak. My son got hooked up with some others who were building kayaks and ended up building that with the group as a project alongside some high school students from Portland. I am certain he owns, read , or at least is aware of the book.
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
"I'd forgotten that enamel (as in the boat article linked) is pigmented varnish--if I could find transparant enamel, I'd be all set."I have heard of several reports of people getting a NEUTRAL tint base paint and using that for a outdoor wood finish. The neutral tint is clear.http://dgroups.woodmagazine.com/n/pfx/forum.aspx?nav=messages&tid=3004&webtag=woodrefinishing
.
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A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
Thanks for the info and the link. I know that many primers are very translucent (the guy I work with insists upon putting two or three coats on despite my telling him that primer is not made to cover so much as to provide good bonding for the overcoats). I'll see what I can find at the paint store when I'm ready to go with this project (assuming they accept my entry!--they may not, I have been turned down before--though I think if they reject my entry, I will do it anyway and stick the thing in my side yard, next to my little red bridge!).
hey danno' hope we get a pic hpwever it turnsout. good luck! Jim
Okay, I'll post a pic when done--if I remember how--my computer won't let me just upload, I have to download to myself and copy it and all sorts of complicated weirdness, otherwise I'd have posted pics of the model.
I named it sort of after my granddaughter and when her mom told her, the granddaughter asked how soon before I'd be bringing her the dragon to keep! That's what they need kicking around the house!
I have never done exactly that sort of thing but it is not far off from some historical things I am familiar with.
Linoleum is originally a cotton canvas sailclothe tacked down on a wood floor and then painted with linseed oil - thus the name lin oil eum
the painting would soak thru th e fibres and shrink it up tight. After a couple coats, they could paint a coloured pattern on and then a couple more wear coats of clear.
when I moved here to the island, I found that many porches and balconies were 'roofed' with something similar borrowed from the sailing heritage.
The deck would be painted with an oil base and while still wet, the canvas sailclothe laid in and tacked at the edges, then another 5-6 coats of deck paint over it, then repaint every year. I have done a couple like that, but added a ply of ice and water shield under the clothe for insurance.
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Man it's been ten years so forgive my memory.
I used to know a guy who made ocean kayaks.Traditional skinned boats with oak frames and a modern shell.There is a synthetic canvas (originally used for industrial vacuum bags but I digress) and some sort of oil based coating. Like I said it's been too long to remember the exact product.Totally water proof (ten years in marine environment)uv resistant etc.
A google search into modern Badarkas or skinned boats should get you there. If not a man by the name of George Dyson started the modern Badarka movement and created the system.
So if your looking for the best modern way of making fabric weather resistant I would try this. That said there are much cheaper and simpler traditional methods ( I see you already have posts so I'll shut up).
that is very common on old airplanes .... most were cloth... yes even the wings....
it was called dope'n.... don't know why but you would cover the framework... then wet the cloth... it'd shrink... and it'd be very tight... so tight that if you didn't have some slack in it to start... it could pull everything out of wack as it shrunk... after shrink'n then you'd coat it with dope... and paint...... i'm think'n it was cotton cloth but... should be easy to look up...
but as for... will it work... answer is yes...
p
If I remember modsel airplanbe dope, the reason it was called dope is that breathng too much of it would turn you into a dope...;)
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
That certainly sounds like the stuff! First time I used it I crushed a perfectly good boat (didn't want it to get a sag you know ). I wonder if Wick's aircraft supply carries it?
Danno,
I have just been reading "Building Skin-on-Frame Boats" by Robert Morris, published by Raincoast books. It describes the construction of small boats like kayaks. (Got it right here beside me.)
He says he has covered them with cotton canvas (cotton duck, actually, canvas is a slightly differrent cloth) with polyesters and with nylon.
Cotton will take any kind of paint or varnish. It costs less than the other fabrics. You don't need to fill the weave. You have to do that on a canoe to smooth the skin to reduce the friction and to improve its abrasion resistance. An 8oz or 10 oz duck should work just fine for you.
Morris says that polyester cloth (Dacron) soaked in varnish seems to tear easily. end of story for his purposes.
He says that the cloth he normally uses to cover boats is ballistic nylon. He sews it on tightish and wets it thoroughly which causes it to shrink. He then varnishes with polyester. He prefers water-borne finishes for their flexibility.
Ron
Only cause I have had one of those canvas boats will I interject.
They tend to shrink and swell with heat humidity. Also the over all life span is not so hot. Well you can re coat them of course.
My thought is if this is an art piece longevity can be a real issue.
Check into a Hydrocoat product called "Polyshield" it is incredible material.
Available from Highland woodworking and Hood finishing supplies.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
"Success is not spontaneous combustion, you have to set yourself on Fire"
Well if I could just wear a tin foil hat...
Henley,
Was yours covered with cotton, then?
My own experience is not with cloth over a frame, but with wood and canvas canoes. I have two and they seem to need re-covering about every ten years.
The quickest filler I have ever used for the cloth weave is a mixture of latex primer paint and microballoons.
Ron
yeh It was cotton
I think that is the weak link.I don't know for sure but I think it was the UV that did it in. Granted I was young and didn't take care of it very well.
Wallyo, Piffin, Henley, Ponytl, Ronbedgell, Sphere: Thanks to all of you! Good replies. Will check it all out.
I am, more than many of the artists involved, concerned with longevity. I was even thinking of building it some way so that the fabric that I wanted left plain (uncoated) in the fins and wings so it would move in the wind, (planned on using Rip-stop Nylon there) could be easily removed so when it fades and frays, the owner could replace it. But anything very easy means that vandals could easily remove it and ruin the piece, so I guess that idea will have to be rejected.
I could make it so the fabric is screwed on through channels that could later be changed out to use screen spline or Velcro or some other sort of clip system so once the final owner has it where it is less likely to be vandalized, it would be easier for them to replace weather damaged parts.
But the body and parts not to blow in the wind would need sun and water protection and some stiffness, so that's why I thought of cloth with varnish. Mabe a model of expanded metal lath--still have the cuts healing on my hands, though the larger version would be easier to do, as I wouldn't have to reach into such little spaces to wire things together. Still, I think a light framework and cloth would be better--and the thing has to weigh such that one of two men can move it.
Part of the requirement in our proposals is to devise a way of attaching the sculptures to a concrete base so they cannot be stolen. One year the DDA had pre-made trolls that the artists just painted (not much creativity involved there IMO, so I sat that one out) and a couple of them were stolen. I was going to make a big honking chain and padlock attached to a collar around the dragon's neck and attach the chain to an eye-bolt epoxied into the slab, but I want my dragon to be "free." Free-range dragons always taste better to me.
I was a stretcher maker for five years.Alot of high end sculptural forms, restorations, etc. So A couple of thoughts. I think the medums your using wouldn't be considered "Archival" by any means in the art world. Cotton duck, canvas both eventually are eaten by any oil based substance. That's why painters use Gesso. Any fabric exposed to the elements will break down, especially if they are intended to flap or flutter in the wind.
That said I'm not negative about your ideas, I think their cool! Just how your looking at them. Planned decay is a valid part of an artistic vision. Free range dragons taste better and old ones make us think.
Thanks for the info--I would like it to last as long as possible and would consider using "archival" materials. So either gesso on cotton duck, or fabric of some sort of man-made fiber and varnished. The advantage of not gessoing would be transparency, but since I'll probably do the gold underpainting, that's not so much an advantage.
I think I'll make the fluttering parts out of ballistic or rip-stop Nylon and make it as easily replaceable as I can. Like I said, if it's too easy to take it off, vandals will run off with it. One competition involved pedal cars and people were unbolting the steering wheels and taking them just to do it!
Unfortunately Gesso won't provide any weather protection.Its only a ground. I wonder if "Golden" paints companymhas any products that would be usefull.They specialize in acrylic paints and grounds.If any "art"supply company would have a clue they would.
I use Golden products a lot. I can check at the hobby store that sells them. There are other products like modeling paste that is made for outdoor use, but I think I'd have to order it from Jerry's Artarama. Is also a papier mache' product that says it can be "made to be waterproof"--don't know exactly what that means--anything can be made to be waterproof, depending on what you put over it! Could also just put on a thin coat of cement or thinset (or latex/acrylic modified patch material). many possibilities--too many!
I think gesso would be okay as long as I then coat it with waterproof paint or clearcoat. I think too that if I were to use waterbased waterproof clearcoat ofsome kind, I wouldn't have problems with the cotton (if I decide to use cotton and not man-made fiber) rotting. Gets complicated. Cotton would probably shrink to fit tightly better than cloth made with any man-made fiber.
Well, over an airplane, that would be called "doping."
Aviation "dope" being either a nitrocellulose or butyrate compound. You are "sizing" the fabric, so it holds a shape, using a material with some stickiness to help adhesion.
Seems modern products are available, in tautening and non-tautening mixtures.
Varnish would probably work, with the rather nice side effect of you can pigment varnish an build up a final finish (meaning you could have a dragon {lung} with translucent colors, which could have its own "cool" factor).
I remembered that model airplanes were covered with fabric (real, old planes too) (or tissue paper (only models, of course!)), and that was doped, but couldn't remember what dope was exactly and whether it would last in weather. I asked a friend who makes models and he said mostly nowadays they just used some sort of poly (propylene?--can't remember what he said) that was self adhering and ironed on and shrunk to fit with a hair dryer--but he wasn't sure how well it would hold up to Michigan weather (or vandals--I was afraid it would be tempting for kids to stick pens and pencils and knife blades through the tught plastic--makes a nice satisfying popping sound (I imagine)).
and that was doped, but couldn't remember what dope was exactly and whether it would last in weather.
In my brief foray into scale flight, lacquer-base 'dope' remains a strong memory.
I asked a friend who makes models and he said mostly nowadays they just used some sort of poly
Hmm, almost afraid to go crack open a current copy of Model Airplane News or the like, just to see how much technology change there is. I want to remember hearing about some heat-shrink films, but I have no experience.
Have to wonder, back to your project, if a person could actually laminate layers of varnished "skins" to make effects, like scales and the like. A spooky thought about some u/v sensitive paint, too.Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
Heat shrink is another possibility.
There is a Maine small boat designer named Monfort who works with skin on frame. The skin is a heat shrink fabric of some sort. I don't know what it is and I don't know how it is waterproofed.
http://gaboats.com/
Ron
Thanks for the link--they just use heat-shrink Dacron--no coating necessary. But, as I said, this would be very tempting for vandals to poke holes in or cut. Would be nice if the dragons could be exhibited without fear of vandalism, but, alas, we live in a world that includes such people.
Frenchy will have you using shellac I'm sure.
hey danno, been 'doin just that on wood and canvas kayaks for years. just marine varnish, poly resin is too hard and will crack when you deform it. canvas has sizing as manuf.- make sure you wash it hot before applying it and stretch the canvas damp. staple it in hidden areas as the varnish will glue it to the wood when it dries. let the canvas dry and brush on a good soaking coat of varnish. varnish the frame before canvassing and it will last for years in the weathen. Jim Ps, let ( I love vista and I'll never quit)me know 'bout the font size,. thanks
Thanks--good to know about cracking--was thinking about this in the wind and know it will experience some flexing! Will have to have the base of the wings very strongly attached and then allow tip part (upper or outer half) to move with the wind and maybe have slots to releave excess pressure. Get's complicated for just a "simple" sculpture!
Check around web forums on the topic of old Chris-Craft boats. That company used to use fabric on top of the decks, and it was coated with some watertight goop. Lasts a really, really long time.
you can use clear silicone caulk thinned with mineral spirits. spreads on real easy. try a sample first.
Doesn't that have zero UV resistant properties?
Hydrocoat Polyshield is the stuff..100% UV stable,not BLOCKER but it remains stable.
If Boeing would use it , so would I.
Before I get slammed for pimping a finish, I disclaim that I do not know for certain what applicatin they used it for, I just sold it, and have used it, demonstrated it's uses, and swear by it for many uses. This is one.
I do not get a $$ from pushing it now, I just let y'all know it's the bomb.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
"Success is not spontaneous combustion, you have to set yourself on Fire"