First off Notchman runs one I found out from another thread. I am hoping to pick his brain a little for one but Im wondering how many of you have conact with BS mills.
I realize that everyone is not living in decent to super woods like I am. This subject would be a moot one for an area barren of trees or like much of Texas that Ive seen have an abundance of mesquite thats overtaking pastures for some reason and only much good for barbecues and fire wood . In other words there are areas that dont have the right type of tress to band mill.
As high as lumber and plywood are including Advantech , I thought it time to take a look. We need a way of controlling those prices and just say no like drugs. We of course need markets competing for market share.
My first essential question is this ;
Can lumber be sized all the same in a band mill where you can get the same dimension every time ?
Tim
Replies
http://forums.taunton.com/fw-knots/
You would probably get some good response on Knots as well. I've seen a few discussions there about band saw mills.
Stacy's mom has got it going on.
Im more interested in builders using them.
thanks Ill read it up.
Tim
I've used some rough cut framing lumber before in our homebuilding buisness, both bandsaw milled and circular cut. The bandsaw milled was definitely better in consistency of dimension, but in my opinion, you aren't going to save any money when framing whole houses commercially. If it's your own house and you aren't figuring your labor it would be different. I ran all plate material thru a planer to get exact thicknessing, you need to cut both ends of every piece of lumber to square it up, precut studs don't exist, etc. and you still need to either air dry or get kiln drying done.
I do however have a guy come to my property every year with his woodmizer and custom cut hardwood for interior custom trim, cabinetry, etc. I own about 40 acres of mixed hardwoods, mostly maple, ash, cherry and butternut. I take 10-12 trees a year on average, and air dry for about two years. In my own home I've got butternut paneled doors and trim, cherry cabinetry and some floors, maple and cherry stairs, and have used the wood on a number of other house jobs. Rough sawn framing lumber in my area ends up costing close to the same as store bought, but using my own hardwood supply, my cost is my time bringing in the logs and helping saw, and handling and stacking. With cherry and butternut running $3-4 bd.ft or more around here, I'm spending around a quarter a bd.ft for sawing plus my time, which I enjoy anyway. There's nothing like watching a new butternut or cherry log get opened up. Kind of like christmas morning opening presents.
Thats cool .
Tim
Can lumber be sized all the same in a band mill where you can get the same dimension every time ?
the sizing is as good as the operator - the machine will saw straight above the carriage at whatever level it is set at - there are scales (ruler - 4/4 - 5/4 - 6/4 - 8/4) and a thin red lineon the cutting head to adjust to the lines on the scales - put the line in the middle of each scale line and there ya go....
...except that the logs often have stresses in them - make a beam, take an inch off one side and it removes the equalibrium and the beam bends slightly - a careful operator will observe the beam carefully and flip it frequently, in many cases, to keep the forces equal and the saw beam straight - it's not uncommon for the last board off the machine to be thick on the ends -
it is straightforward to saw the rough boards within 1/32" of an inch of each other -
I have a Woodmizer band mill. I don't have any problem getting everything I cut to +/- 1/8", can even get a sixteenth tolerance providing I am very careful with my settings. You just have to take a little more time cutting and get the scale right on.
Keep in mind that, circular, bandmill or scragg mill, you are still getting rough lumber. All of the framing lumber you get has gone through gang rips, planers and a kiln. I have had pretty reasonable luck air drying my lumber and running it through a jointer and planer, but you may find that mass production is out of the capabilities of most bandmills, at least for home framing packages.
Also, many areas of the country will not accept ungraded lumber, and most small mill operators either don't care, or dont have access to any way to grade their lumber. I'd be out of luck if local codes required grade stamps. On the other hand, if you are careful, you can get lumber that would easily meet or exceed minimum grade stamps. I do know of some small mills in some areas, that group together and hire an independent grader to come in and grade stacks of lumber over a period of days or a week, that way they can sell it for construction.
I will point you to a place where you can learn everything you want to know about bandmills or any type of portable mill, ask questions and hopefully get some helpful answers. http://www.forestryforum.com Tell them "Engineer" sent you.
Edit: My mill is old, out of adjustment and rusty. I do the best I can. With a brand new mill, computerized setworks, laser guides and hydraulic log handling, you should hit +/- 1/16" consistently and 1/32" with some practice.
Edited 11/27/2005 11:02 am ET by JonE
Before I purchased my Woodmizer in 1989, I had spent 18 years working in the wood products industry, first as a millwright and then as a maintenance manager. I worked primarily in Old Growth Doug Fir mills and spent a lot of time maintaining and aligning large production bandmills along with other process equipment from edgers to dry kilns to planers and lumber sanders.
So when the last "dinosaur" that employed me closed, I went shopping. There were a few bandmill knock-offs out there, some of which ran on parallel rails (an alignment nightmare for a portable saw) and a couple of quality circle saw mills (large kerf and inability to turn the log).
I was used to the big iron of the production mills, but was swayed to the WM due to of-the shelf parts (for the most part) and it's design.
I can say now with all honesty that it was a good decision....I treated it well and, in 14 years and over 3000 engine hours, I spent less than $1500 on repair parts and when I sold it 2 years ago, it was still getting the kind of accuracy David Doud claims.
In the time I had my mill, I cut most of the Pacific Northwest species, softwood and hardwood, though the preponderance was Doug fir, Western Red Cedar, Port-Orford Cedar and coastal redwood. But I also cut a lot of Pacific Yew (mostly for myself), Ash, White Oak, juniper, various pines, madrone, Cascara, Mytlewood (California Bay Laurel, western hemlock, grand fir (pi$$ fir in logger lingo), Chinquapin, Alaskan Yellow cedar, incense cedar, black walnut, black locust, and a few weird yard trees of unknown species.
There are two things of absolute importance if accurate cutting with a bandmill (or most any other kind of mill) is to be achieved: Alignment and tension of the saw guides and proper sharpening and setting of the saw blades. Of next importance is alignment of bed plates and, in the case of a WM with a cantilevered saw, adjustment for saw torque so that the saw, between the guides, remains parallel to the bedplates during the cut.
And of course the sawyer needs to have a knowledge about internal stresses in logs and how and when to cut them out (usually using rotation), how to maximize recovery of desireable wood, such as VG clears, when or when not to box the heart in a beam, etc.
I've seen a lot of poor quality wood cut with portable mills of all stripes, usually due to poorly maintained equipment or an inexperienced sawyer.
But the beauty of getting your own cut is to avoid wany edges, get good quality lumber, and, in many cases, be able to say the bones of your crib came off your own land.
I think it was Bob Balser who posted some custom sawn material off his own place, and he presented a nice portfolio of the project. His economic analysis of the project were way off IMO, but, it need not be horribly expensive to get custom milling done.
I always charged by the hour (WM seems to push the bd. ft. idea) because talleying was tedious and things like gunstock blanks and sailboat masts are time consuming and of odd dimension.
Incidently, I always cut green DF framing lumber 1/8" oversize (to allow for shrinkage) and, if the lumber was to be planed commercially (S4S) I'd saw it 1/4" over width and thickness, just like the big boys.
Guess I'll cease for now. :-)
So hows the money on such work?
Ill be back
On my last jobs, I was charging $45 per hour. This may sound a little light to some, but I always felt that my time plus the market value of the customer's logs should not exceed the cost of like and kind framing lumber at a yard.
Woodmizer is, I think, a little optimistic about the output per bd. ft. on an hourly basis with their mills, but I could typically cut a couple thousand feet a day on a 2 X 6 basis if the logs and the set up was decent. I once cut just shy of 10,000 ft of 16' 4X12 bridge planks in a log yard in a day. I also had a resaw/beveled siding attachment and could easily resaw 8K bd. ft. per day with a helper.
Of course, when you can massage a log with a small mill, the over run can be quite significant. We use Scribner scale out here and I could sometimes double the scale in a log in volume of lumber....especially with Red cedar where log taper can me significant.
I might add, that with the beveled siding attachment, I would typically cut boards at 1 3/4", we'd get them planed with a dado on opposing corners, then resaw them on the bevel. The result was a beveled board, 3/4" thick at the bottom with a dado on the back to lay over the piece below, and the taper was nearly 1/4" thick on the blind edge.
This was nice stuff, usually old growth Port-Orford Cedar or Red cedar that we'd salvaged out of old logging units.
But I charged the hourly rate whether or not the customer helped with the off-bearing because it was to his benefit to speed the process with his own sweat.
When I was cutting some high quality beams or some finish wood that needed extra care to avoid dings and stains I'd sometimes charge a bit more, depending on the customer and the situation.
I'd also cut a lot of sticker stock out of some of the lower quality, thinner cants (usually the 3/4 or 1" stuff) and some pile bottoms if the wood was to be stickered and air-dried.
Here's a couple of photos of some red cedar buckskins being sawn. I cut about 28K on this job, mostly siding and some 2X6, all old growth. We had to rip some of the logs to get them to fit the mill.
This particular job, I cut for a 50% split and used a lot of the stuff for siding my house.
Thanks very much for the very imformative posts , as you went beyond .
If you would like to add more it would be a treat. .
Ive thought alot about it and didnt think about what you have already said . It rocks.
Tim
I'll try to feed you some more as time permits; perhaps midweek.
Bish is right about site cut lumber being less efficient to use for professional framing. The house framing I've cut has been mostly for other contractors and a few HO's doing their own homes or projects, although I have cut a lot of posts and beams that, if special ordered through a yard, would have been quite expensive and not always of great quality.
In my hay-day of sawing, I had a source of really top grade logs to pick from.
But, as Bish said, the real beauty of a small bandmill is the ability to convert some material that is unavailable most any other way.
My favorite part of my house is the dining room where I built hammerbeam trusses out of beams cut from Yew logs....I'll get a pic of those for you. I posted some of these a few years back, so they're probably in the archives somewhere....Jim Blodgett and I had some discussion about some custom saw-work, but he's pretty much had me on his black-list since I sold my mill! :-)
...Jim Blodgett and I had some discussion about some custom saw-work, but he's pretty much had me on his black-list since I sold my mill! :-)
Roar!
Tim
hammerbeam trusses out of beams cut from Yew logs.
I remember those picts - wasn't it 'pre-prospero' tho? -
I'm in total agreement with your posts on the this subject - I've only owned a mill for a year and half or so, but I've occasionally rented mills w/operators for 20 years - think the first job was 1984, with a very early WM - a small advantage living in Indiana where the mill were developed -
I like your description of sawing beveled lap siding - end up with a refined product - I don't have the jig, but the owner of that first mill I rented did - it was shortly after the story published in FHB on the clapboard mill out east (vermont?) that chucked the log up like a huge lathe and then ripped quartersawn claboards - made the mix of grains off the bandsaw mill look pretty common -
thought I would take a crack at quartersawing some white (burr) oak last week - fellow had sold a tree and they had left some limbs - one of which was 36" diameter and 14' long - there's a good tutorial over at woodweb about quartersawing just such a item - except that even tho we chained it and loaded the log with a backhoe (3X too heavy for the loader), the mill wouldn't turn it either - would have had to rip it with a chainsaw (or pop it with black powder, but it had twisting grain) - gave up on it - had all the rest done, getting late and bad weather coming - still feel kinda bad about it - I don't like not getting the job done - not to mention leaving the money log laying there...
"there's enough for everyone"
That was a good little story too David.
Tim
I've had more than one log that my hyd. turner couldn't budge (like a 32" X 20' burly green Myrtlewood). I was always able to help the turner with a handyman jack. (A bit of technique is involved, mostly to avoid getting myself crushed!).
W/M would probably cringe at some of the things that are done on those mills. Over the years, they sent me a few "field alteration" kits that came as a result of someone doing something really stupid!
But the Woodmizer folks make a gallant effort to keep the gene pool as wide as possible: I was always amused by the blade changing instructions printed on the bandwheel covers; "Be sure engine is shut off and wheels have come to a complete stop before removing blade."
A friend I was building a house for a few years ago found a Redwood log on the beach near here. The log was 14' in diameter by 32 feet long. It took us two years to get it all, between tides and storms and such. Got pretty proficient at the ripping.
And ended up with about 12k bd. ft. of clear VG redwood...the real rich deep purple stuff.
The trick to good ripping isn't so much filing the rip tooth profile (though it helps) but to have a long bar on the saw. The long bars are pretty common out here, but they can be special ordered from most any saw shop. (We used 5' and 6' mostly for logs over about 30").
The trick is to be able to run the saw at a shallow angle to the surface of the log and make several passes, deeper and deeper. The result can be a very straight and flat cut. (Being careful to chock up the halves until your prepared to pop the halves apart).
whadda treat! - I am currently plotting to take dad to CA in january - his niece lives there in big tree country - he's never been (90yo) and neither have I -
good tips on the ripping - I bought a O77 w/36" bar a couple of years ago (ebay) because I occasionally run into hunks that need that capacity - didn't have it with me last week tho -
by 'handyman jack', I'm thinking you mean the long handled 'farm jack'?View Image
it's great fun - on an occasional/seasonal basis - don't think I'd like to roll out of bed and face it everyday tho - "there's enough for everyone"
funny
we call that jack an implement jack.
How big a tractor does Jim need?
How big a tractor does Jim need?
well, ya got skidding and loading as essential related activities to sawyering -
that 14', 36" burr oak log calculated out at 15,000+ pounds - if you want to deal with hunks like that, you need a Case 580 hoe or equivalent - but that's at the extreme end and it makes no sense to buy that capacity when you could rent it when it's needed - I could skid that log with one of my 45 hp farm tractors, (ford 900 models with good tires w/fluid in them) and such a tractor could be purchased here for $3000 - 3500 quite readily - there are attachments to the hitch that contain winches and cable and send the cable off a high point so to facilitate skidding - I don't have any, but it's kinda on the list - I think that's what Jim is talking about in his previous post -
- I also have a tractor with a forklift conversion that'll lift around 8000 pounds that is very convienent for moving and loading logs - paid $2300 + $600 to haul it home from 350 miles away -
together as part of a system, I don't strain myself handling heavy pieces - "there's enough for everyone"
How about the cost of the mill?
Ive seen several for sale but in what condition I dont know .
New or used?
Tim
here's a good site to keep abreast of prices -
http://www.sawmill-exchange.com/index.htm
just like a truck - it all depends on features -
"there's enough for everyone"
David thanks for posting that site . I learned a lot there readin all the links .
Interresting to say the least.
Tim
You guys are really causing trouble. I won't be sleeping much tonight now that you got the juices flowing like this.
There are many reasons why milling your own lumber might, or might not, make financial sense. But anyone who has ever spent a day milling their own logs, for their own use will tell you, you just don't get enough of those days in your life. At least I haven't.
Friday is the JLCLive show in Portland and just today I printed out the directions to the Wood Mizer dealer down there. Then of course, as long as I'm that close I am going down to Willemina to Future Forrestry Products to get an eyeball on their logging arches...hope I make it to JLCLive!
Farmi logging winch. 4WD tractor with a set of forks, maybe a grapple...man oh man, I might not get to sleep TOMORROW night either! You guys are ALL on Kathy's list now, you know. Especially you, Notcher, because you sold your saw. Not so much you, David, because she LOVED those apples!
Excuse me, I gotta go look at my WoodMizer literature.
There are many reasons why milling your own lumber might, or might not, make financial sense. But anyone who has ever spent a day milling their own logs, for their own use will tell you, you just don't get enough of those days in your life.
ya - to the best of my ability I do not attempt to justify things I want to do on 'financial sense' - I just don't think that's a path to happiness - - good days, now, they're worth something -
do the right thing and the money will follow...
"there's enough for everyone"
Edited 11/27/2005 11:46 pm ET by DavidxDoud
So Jim; how about you buy their top-of-the-line diesel machine, drag it down here along with that tractor.....
I've got some nice doug fir logs I'd like to get some beams out of and I could train you on the mill!
try this one:
http://www.selectsawmill.com/PRODUCTS/model-4221/model-4221.html
If i ever retire, one of the projects on the list will be a bandmill using a 2.2 liter chrysler engine and transaxle as direct drive, wheels of solid rubber spare tires driving 2" band, hydraulic tensioner and auto alignment using rack/pionion steering gear, etc. use old well drilling tower for the bed, etc. That could keep somebody busy for a few weeks. Four or five old truck chassis and car part should supply all the needs.
What's the law for taking redwood off the beach, I've heard different stories?
At the time, we were issued a fence post permit....there was never any distinction of species. In an array of driftwood, redwood looks like most other wood in the pile. "Our" log was buried in sand....part of the reason it took so long to remove was that we would rip and split out what was retrievable above the surface and then wait as the log would gradually float up high enough so we could take another pass.
Hey. Is that salt water soaked wood hard on equipment?
Well, for one thing, Redwood is heavier than a dead priest when wet, and very light when dry. So the cants we split out dried in a pile for the better part of a year.
Redwood cuts like butter.....the only thing you have to watch for with beach logs is sand, which takes the edge off the blades really fast.
I've cut some wet beach wood at other times and washed the mill down after, but, since most wood is fairly acidic, that's a good practice regardless where the wood originated.
It's not good to let a mill sit with accumulated sawdust in the various nooks and crannies. And I ALWAYS kept a squirt bottle of WD-40 with the mill and replenished it from gallon cans (much cheaper that way).
And anytime I did any mechanical work on the mill, I always used Never-seaz on any threaded parts. Not to do so will cause misery in the future!
More info than you asked for, but since you'll soon be owning one, I'd like it to be in good shape when you cut my logs! :-)
"Never-seaz"?
Hey, as long as I got you here, you have any opinions on the debate between using an electric motor instead of combustion engine to power a band mill? I mean, the portability issue is obvious, but other than that?
There are a couple of mills locally with elect motors....both are in stationary set-ups.
The advantages of electric is a wider torque band with less horsepower, along with less maintenance, quieter, less vibration, etc.
And one thing you always desire in a bandsaw is a consistent running speed, whether it's a sawmill or a shop bandsaw. The engine driven bandmill achieves this with a governor, which may serve the purpose adequately most of the time, but is probably less efficient than the juice coming across the grid from Bonneville power.
My mill had a 26 HP Onan gas and, IIRC, the same performance could be achieved with a 15 HP elect., and the most economical would be with 3-phase.
BTW, Never-seze is a silvery compound you brush onto mating metal surfaces that you will want to disassemble in the future without worry of them seizing together from corrosion....it's terrific stuff and is commonly used on heavy equipment and industrial machinery; most commonly on threaded connections, i.e. nuts and bolts, but also on mating surfaces between shafts and sprockets and flexible couplings....I even use it on the tapered and keyed shafts that connect to the tines on my walk-behind rototiller.
Edited 12/1/2005 1:48 am by Notchman
Thanks. I was down in Sweet Home a few weeks ago looking at a mill with an electric motor on it. Hadn't considered it before, but I'm leaning that way now.
Hey Tim Mooney - Do you know about the magazine "Independent Sawmill & Woodlot Management"? If not, check it out http://www.sawmillmag.com. Comes out monthly and there's lots of good reading there if you're thinking about getting a mill.
Sweethome is where the White brand of metal detectors are made. If you are thinking "sawmill" I would encourage you to get one.....the most basic model is all that's needed to detect metal in a log....and the Whites are top drawer.
Now THERE is some good advice.
You see those debarkers some manufacturers advertise? Looks like they moight strip the bark on both sides of the log JUST ahead of the blade. You ever see such a thing?
Looks like they moight strip the bark on both sides of the log JUST ahead of the blade
don't think so - just on the entry side - I hate dirty logs - equals dull blades in short order - checked and I could retrofit, but be close to $2K by the time it's all said and done and then it's one more thing to go wrong - looks like it would get in the way sometimes, but dunno for sure -
they make a debarker that fits on a chainsaw - works better on some bark than others....
"there's enough for everyone"
I helped a local guy a few months back that had one of those debarkers on his Woodmizer and it seemed to work OK, but, like David, I think it would be an annoyance at times. I was always finding myself cutting logs that were larger than the capacity of the mill, which took some messing around sometimes to get them chambered and to a manageable size. Anything, be it nut or bolt or a debarker attachment that extends into the working area of the cutting head is potentially a PITA.
When I bought my mill, I bought one of those chainsaw debarker attachments (it's actually a Makita electric planer head mounted in a frame adapted to run off the bar tip of a chainsaw). It became a relic in a back corner of my shop in short order.
I eventually found that most logs, even when dragged through the mud, have at least one clean side, and if they were overly filthy, I'd open them up with the clean section aligned with the entry point of the blade. The draw back to that is that sometimes you want to open up a log with it sitting in a certain position and the "clean side" doesn't always offer that option.
When I did have to clean a log, a few minutes with an axe or a sharp peeling spud would do the trick.
Some logs, like Port-Orford Cedar, have thick, heavy fluted bark that is a magnet for rocks....got to seek them out and pry them out by hand...
one feature I find slightly annoying is the fact that the mill turns the log such that the next cut is thru the bark instead of thru the fresh cut - I either have to manually rotate the log the other direction or turn it 270* so as to cut from the clean surface - and obviously this strategy only works on logs of a certain size/shape -
don't have any good answer -
"there's enough for everyone"
I don't have a good answer either. My mill had the hydraulic turner and, unless the log was a real brute, spinning it 270 degrees was't a big issue. On the big ugly logs, I usually resorted to hacking off the grit filled bark with axe or spud. Occasionally, if tap water and a hose was available, my pressure washer solved the problem.
A couple more issues I'd like to address before this thread dies:
1. The first log I ever cut on my shiny new mill was a big red alder butt about 28" in diameter, 12' long and had a curvature of about 6" in that 12'.
Now, alder is easy to saw....and if the logs are clean, a blade may last all day. But this one was full of stress, I was new with the mill, and the whole effort was exasperating, to say the least. I did get it cut up, but the results were mostly firewood.
The moral of the story: If you're new on the mill, start with some medium sized, reasonably straight logs (16" X 12' is an ideal size). After getting familiar with what the mill can do, you can move on to the ugly stuff (which can yield some good product if you pay attention).
2. Before I cut up that alder log, I pulled the mill down into my pasture, set it up, and proceeded with the sawmilling part. BUT, the one thing I'd not taken into consideration was the wind. I live in a small valley and, no matter what the seasonal prevailing winds are doing, at ground level here the wind almost always comes up the valley. And I had set up the mill in such a way that, when I was at the controls, I was facing the wind......and a cloud of fine sawdust!
Sometimes conditions dictate poor set-ups, but usually, facing the wind can be avoided.
Also, wear earplugs and some kind of eye protection. With some wood species, the sawdust can be really nasty. With ANY species, it's not good to have in your eyes.
Oh, and one more thing: Blade maintenance and sharpening is a subject too lengthy to get into here, but one thing I would suggest to anyone running a bandsaw mill is to change your blades before they are dull. Obviously, if you hit a rock, or a nail you'll need to swap blades right away, but to run a blade until it starts snaking or running hot and pulling a lot of fuzz out of the cut shortens blade life considerably and affects sawing performance. In addition, pulling the blades a little early reduces the amount of grinding required and reduces the frequency of resetting.
"...before this thread dies..." What you talkin' 'bout, Willis? We're just getting started here!
Got a good look at the WoodMizer LT15 today. Two thumbs up from this reporter. Biiiiig improvement over the LT10, no question. Rectangular tube frame, 15 hp engine, hand crank feed, nice tool. I'm gonna sleep on it, but I think I'm in love.
The class of mills I am looking at won't take that debarker I asked about the other night, but I did get a good look at one while I was at the WM dealer. David was right, it mounts on the infeed side. The ones I saw had a circular blade similar to a skill saw, I'm guessing maybe 6" diameter, but much thicker than any skill saw blade I've seen, and with much heavier carbide teeth.
I've been watching Sawmill Exchange for awhile now. Never really wanted to own something that expensive that I'd only use for myself a couple times/yr, but I'm having trouble finding anyone to come out. Have an offer in on an old local LT20. Owner has a bad enough back that it's unlikely he'll use it again. Even put in a low offer on a large circular mill. Turned out to be too low.
I've spent way too much time chopping a clean line to consider using that 20 without a debarker, even though I now have better machinery that'll keep the logs cleaner. What I've seen looked more like a router bit, but a small biscuit cutter-sized blade sounds good.
Cutting for figure I've frequently done. Often makes finding a clean side impossible. The guy with the 20 is the only sawyer I've had out who didn't learn a little from me, not that I'm expert. Seems it doesn't take a lot for an owner to know enough to cut decent lumber.
So in the meantime, a buddy with an Alaskan mill and I are about to resume sawing. Nothing I'd buy, but we finally got a chain filing that gives decent cutting speed. No length limitation.PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
Yeah, I check in at Sawmill Exchange once a day, too, Tom. Very seldom do I see something close enough to go investigate, but every once in a while I call and get in touch with the mill owner. About once a week or so I see used mills on ebay, too.
I'm not familiar with that LT20 you mentioned, but in my mind the best thing about WoodMizer is they have been around a long time and sell a ton of mills. Kind of like F*rd pick ups, or Chevy vans, there are lots of parts available and any factory support is only a phone call away.
You mentioned in a tractor thread a couple months ago that you're handy with a welder and fixing old equipment. I'm not. The farthest I go working with metal is cutting (and being cut by) flashing. I bet you'll do fine with a used mill, probably be able to repair about anything that is worn, or broken - probably even invent or adapt some improvements. I'd rather spend the extra money on a new machine, even though I recognize I could get far more for the same money in a used one.
One thing I asked while at the dealer yesterday was about adding hydraulics later to a manual type mill I might buy now. Apparently you can buy the log loading hydraulics and retrofit some manual mills with that feature...might be well worth looking into.
I check in at Sawmill Exchange once a day, too
Wow, Jim, I'm maybe monthly. Have yet to call about one. You're right about my capabilities. With my retired machinist buddy still alive, I'm pretty close to fearless. Woodmizers here don't seem to depreciate much. You're right about their brand advantage for you. Less so for me. Yup, I'll likely cobble a debarker if I get lucky with a mill.
It's a matter of economics. Having a $30k machine sitting here mostly idle makes no sense for me. I don't like the work enough to want to saw for money. That's why I'd much rather pay the quarter-or-so/ft for somebody else to come here and let them deal with the maintenance. If only it would still work that way...
For that kind of capital I can buy a (well-used) tractor that'll gross me 3 times the money sawyers get. Unfortunately, I don't see any good choices currently. Other than the old LT20, that is. Time to give Gary another call. And I'd still rather pay him than buy his mill.
Seems to me I remember somebody at BT selling a cheap mill a yr or so ago. Advice at the time was to take it back to WM for reconditioning. You might ask how that could work for you. Assuming, of course, you found one that was depreciated, not just worn out.
Having experience with both hydraulic and non- mills, hydraulics are nice, especially if your helper isn't particularly large. Pretty sure it wouldn't take much to convert any mill to hydraulic, even if you just used an electric pump on the reservoir. If you're using a tractor to move the logs, even easier. T off the hydraulic system and let it sit there idling. Been awhile since I looked at a mill with one, but I remember thinking they were pretty simple systems.
PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
Thanks Jim Ill check it out .
I might as well ask you guys the "question".
Now how about paying for one of these babies???
Im sure you wouldnt want to cash out of pocket and not recover the expenses.
To me it looks like a pretty good size loader/skidder is needed with grab hook thingys. I spend a lot of time at http://www.ironplanet.com which is equipment auctions yall. Ive been trying to steal a large kabota backhoe from an auction and its tough. Lots harder than houses or it seems so . Mebbe its cause I dont know the tractor business. A hoe is nice to clear land and inprove it plus the building advantage. The reasn Im looking at the mill thingy is to put the tractor and building together. Still have to pay for it and a truck or trailer . Then again nephew has his hauled to him and finally quit logging. He doesnt make any money either . I just cant ask him why not.
Theres a need here for cabins in the mountains plus on the river and theres no building codes either place . Yall see the direction Im leaning on?
Tim
"I might as well ask you guys the "question".
Now how about paying for one of these babies???
Im sure you wouldnt want to cash out of pocket and not recover the expenses."
Well, there's a lot to say about this, Tim. And I think there are as many variables as there are people who look into getting a sawmill.
For me, buying a mill is the least expensive part, less than 10k. To do what I want to do, use the fir logs growing on my property, to supply lumber for the houses I intend to build in the next 5 or 6 years, without tearing up this property while I harvest and process those fir trees, I need to invest about 20k in log handling equipment.
Now, we could debate the financial sensibility of all this for hours, days, But here's what I've decided (and please, keep in mind, this is for ME, I'm not saying anything about anyone else) -
We're talking a total investment here of about 30k. I've never bought a boat, or ultralight, or sports car, or new deisel truck, or vacation cabin, or motor home, or any of the other things I might have wanted to spend 30k on over the years.
I could go on and on about expanding my professional skill set, or vertical trusts. But the bottom line is, I think I'll derive great pleasure out of this. It fits with my lifestyle and into my business. I can afford it and I want it.
Edited 12/3/2005 12:08 pm ET by jimblodgett
I can afford it and I want it.
Whoops. Didn't see this before I posted. That is the bottom line.PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
Funny to me you mention it that way.
I also dont buy things that are money alligators but you included a cabin and that doesnt belong in the group. Any realestate bought correctly for the right price is investment but that point is not made for arguement. I have things some people wish they had but they aslo have things I wouldnt buy but would love to own. Theres a lot of difference to me in owning a big motor home and a nice cabin. There will become a time when the motor home will be worthless and the increase of value for the cabiin may never stand still.
I still am very frugal about spending money and expect it to return to me.
You are right bout there are different ways of looking at it . I think you want to do it because you want to and thats why a lot of people do things. Plus it can be worked into your business which catches my eye.
Thanks,
Tim
If I was to buy ONE piece of auxiliary equipment to go with a portable mill, it would be a small rubber-tracked excavator. I did a lot of cutting for a couple customers who had these and you would be absolutely astonished at what they will pick up and gently set the the mill, roll the logs, remove large cants, etc.
I also did a lot of cutting in log yards, with big loading shovels and 966 Cats to assist and they were great, but the little excavators were ideal. They're better and safer than a wheeled backhoe, agile, and can move a lot of dirt if you're so inclined. A good operator, using a large bucket can load a truck as fast as the average backhoe...in fact, wheeled backhoes are getting pretty rare around here.
Excavators are often fitted with a "thumb" which, if it's configured right, can grab a decent sized log, or the boom can be rigged with chains or a choker.
One of these machines was set up with a hydraulic winch with a 300' capacity for 3/8" wire rope and a fairlead at the top of the main boom and was a very effective log yarder.
These small machines can be purchased in very good conditioned used for less than $10K (often in the 6.5K to 9K range) and can be safely transported on a tandem axle tilt trailer behind a 3/4 ton P/U.
There is a used equipment yard on I-5 near Sutherlin (just North of Roseburg) that imports used construction equipment from Japan....they have a variety of goodies including these small excavators, The machines have low hours and are surplus from Japanese construction projects. There is some minor work involved in replacing hyd. and fuel filter bases with domestic ones, but it's not costly and pretty simple.
Another source of equipment of all sorts is a weekly Agriculture and Forestry newspaper published in Salem, Oregon called "The Capital Press." It's actually an excellent newspaper with enlightening content about farm and forestry and commercial nursery issues in the Northwest, but it also has a classified section that will have you spinning like a Dervish.
For sale is everything from American antiques to D-11 Caterpillars, with a few sawmills thrown in for good measure....lots of equipment parts, livestock, etc. And the circulation of the Capital Press includes Wash., Idaho, N. Calif., B.C., etc., so chances are, when you find something of interest it's within driving distance.
I subscribed to it for a long time, but don't have the address in front of me....just Google Capital Press and it should come up. Or if you have a farm/feed/garden store near you, they may have it for sale at the counter.
Here we go:
http://www.capitalpress.com
Thanks, man. I'll check it out.
About excavators - I can't tell you how many experienced sawmill operators have told me the same thing. Great around a mill, no doubt about it. And you're right, we see those things more and more - big ones, little ones. I think of them as the digging equipment of the new millenium. Not hard to imagine them all but replacing the backhoe.
I'm pretty much sold on the versatility of a tractor, though. Forks, bucket, PTO, narrow footprint, can go short distances on country roads, just SLIGHTLY overloads a trailer I already own...best fit for me.
Jim;
There's a guy down here who had a mill for awhile....I'd grind his blades on occasion.
Well, he just sold his property and had to do a lot of cleanup (he was a real packrat). From his blackberry patch he dragged out the equipment he used to support his mill.
If you want, I can get you connected with him. The equipment may need a little tinkering, but you can probably get it really cheap!
:-)
Woah! That's some support equipment!
looks like you've been to junkhounds place -
a road grader! I didn't know I needed one, thanks - I'll keep my eyes open -
"there's enough for everyone"
I might as well ask you guys the "question".
Now how about paying for one of these babies???...
.....I still am very frugal about spending money and expect it to return to me....
Tim, I'm so used to having high priced stuff setting around (boxes and graders and refrigeration and sprayers and irrigation pumps etc etc) that see only occasional/seasonal use that the mill fits right in - kinda like Jim, I wanted it, I could afford it (who needs a retirement, eh?) so I got it -
I already have forklifts and tractors and such to serve as support, not to mention the woods that could keep it as busy as need be -
I didn't get it as a profit center, tho I have defrayed the cost a bit with some custom jobs - I don't want to face that machine day after day - a few days a few times a year and it's a treat - - - I haven't pushed custom jobs except to let some friends know I have the machine - any decent crop year I'm not looking for extra work - but every year is not decent, and this machine could keep my taxes paid when the inevitable occurs - I'm bullish on diversification -
of course turning businesses on and off is problematic -
dunno - honest work is not a good way to make money - and the aches and pains are hindering me -
wealth I have in abundance...
"there's enough for everyone"
wealth I have in abundance...
Thats a bigger trump card than I can afford it , I want it .
You mention you wouldnt want to do it every day.
Thats what Ive heard already. But it looks easy with equipment .
Tim
You mention you wouldnt want to do it every day.
Thats what Ive heard already. But it looks easy with equipment .
I'm easily bored - it's not 'hard' - can challenging on occasion, but it's a treat to see the grain and color emerge - had a curly cherry tree last year that was a grinner -
it is loud and smelly and dusty and repetative and makes piles of sawdust and bigger piles of slabwood -
on the grand scale of miserable jobs, it's not bad at all - but my favorite times are working my fruit plantings with no engines running, just fresh air and sky overhead and hawks calling and maybe an eagle flying overhead and bluebirds investigating nesting boxes and the winds talking thru the woods, across the hay, into the orchard, then scent of bloom or fruit - much better than a 24hp Onan clattering - View Image
"there's enough for everyone"
Thats a picture , thats for sure .
Tim
ya -
it occurs to me that I may have created an erronious impression with with my 'wealth in abundance' commment -
I am blessed beyond any merit with that which counts in life - family - friends - health - - but I'm guessing that at least 9 out of 10 posting here make more money than me - farmers are peasants the world over and that is the case here - I'll match you in 'frugal' in another thread - I'm thinking that you and I and junkhound could spend a pleasant evening or three relating our 'scores' -
if I sounded flippant, it's after the fact - I agonized - this mill was a big deal - it emptied all the contingency funds and it diverted resources from all the other balls being juggled - now it's a done deal, put on the brave smile, move forward, have faith -
"there's enough for everyone"
Mooney,
I use a medium size sawmill for all my wood needs.. I'm building a double timber frame (timbers inside and outside with SIP's in between) It's about a 5600 sq foot house and I'm using real premium woods.. Black walnut, Cherry,Hard maple and White oak. Total cost thus far for 35,000- 40,000 bd. ft. of great hardwoods has been about $20,000.00
I'm way overbuilding it because the wood is sooooooooooooooo darn cheap compared to buying from the lumberyard. Wood that the lumber yard would get $9 dollars a bd. foot I can buy for $1.00. I can even get much better deals occasionally! for example Igot about 1500 bd.ft. of fiddlebck maple (that's the really pretty maple they use on really fine violins and such) for only a dime a bd foot.
I've also gotten black walnut for 17 cents a bd. ft. and 5/4 ash for 15 cents.
For example I use 2x12's as subflooring and pay less for that than I would pay for 3/4 inch plywood! (actually I'm rather careless since it will be covered over and use 2x12 or 2x8 or whatever comes off the sawmill..). reading the span tables I could get by with 24 inch spacing but because wood is affordable I go to 12 inches and then double up. You could drive a truck on any of my floors without them sagging!
Yeh I could save a few hundred dollars by building to code but then I would notice the floors flexing when I jump up and down on them.. So I over build. Heck that in itself has become a design element!
The outside walls are actually stronger built than a railroad bridge!
Now the reason I use a sawmill rather than buying my own bandsaw mill is for three reasons.
!st.
I have access to much more wood than I would otherwise get.. They buy around three million board feet. Where If I bought stumpage I couldn't get that much variety from on or two farmers.
2nd
There is a monster amount of really tough labor felling trees and hauling them out of th woods etc.. The sawmill basically gets about 40cents a bd. foot for their efforts plus the origninal cost of the stumpage. To turn standing trees into lumber for only 40 cents seems a really great deal to me..
3rd
As one time buyer I might easily over pay for trees and never have the ability to add extra wood should the need or whim demand it..
Your post is a little unclear to me but that's not unusual for me . <G>
You use a medium mill.
Later in the post it must mean you buy from a medium mill.
Ive asked a few mill owners about buying lumber and nearly every time they compare new lumber at the yard in pricing . Forget them. No mill offers anything close to a lumber yards convenience and they forget that I guess .
Tim