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When I had trouble w/ a neighbor/developer and talked w/ my lawyer about suing him, my atty asked me, “How do you want to spend your next year? In court looking at someone you despise, or at home with your family?” We probably coulda won, but at what price to happiness? Only you can decide what’s worthwhile. Look for a high road that doesn’t leave you feeling like a sucker.
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Man!!!
After reading the above 30++ posts I'm glad I am a serious DIY'er.
Like my Grandfather Hammer once said; "nobody looks after your business like you do."
Will
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My grandfather "C" said "there is an ass for every chair"
*Will, I must tell you that I see the other side of your story.I have been "the engineer" that was the sole voice of reason against a contractor. I was full of sh@t in these instances as well.I was advocating things like:testing soil compaction under fill placed to support slabs. I was told "the rebar protects the slab during soil settling"Hiring a geotechnical firm to test compaction of crushed stone used to fill settled area in front of a fire hall. The pavement had settled so much they had stacked various 2x's to fill the hole. They had "fixed" this twice before with two different contractors.Elevating a house so the grade could pitch away from the house. I was told "that's the foundation drains job"Hiring someone like me to oversee home construction because "so and so is the best builder in the area" even though he was in reality the worst.So engineers and architects, may not be rooted in "reality" but someone needs to uphold the standards. When the reality is that corners are routinely cut in construction for a variety of reasons, and the public (and perhaps even the contractor) is ignorant and unaware of the consequences, someone needs to by a voice for higher standards.-Rob
*Rob, you hit the proverbial nail on the head. For the past 15 years I've been scoping out various stages of new construction home projects and have been horrified to witness the multidude of corners that builders and subcontractors are willing to cut to save money or time. Such was the case for my own home. While visiting my project on average twice per day, I had to inform my builder or the subcontractors directly about legitimate problems I saw almost every day. Some examples: The 2x8 rafters on a portion of the roof were cut 3" too short, so the framers "fixed" the problem by extending out a ledger made of (3) 2x6's. Another vaulted ceiling roof, supported with 16" I-joists 24" o/c, was fastened at its peak (where each I-joist met a roof truss) with only ONE 16d NAIL!!! A GFX heat exchanger was installed incorrectly by the plumber, although directions were provided by the manufacturer and I had specifically reviewed how to correctly install it with the plumber the day before. (he originally installed it in a parallel-flow mode, rather than the correct counter-flow mode for optimum performance.)In many instances in the real world, a builder would be correct to say that an engineer is not needed to oversee a project. Yet, who else is there to conduct quality control when the builder and the subs cannot follow code requirements or manufacturer's installation instructions? To all builders out there who think that an engineer has no right to be on his/her jobsite: DO THE JOB THAT THE CUSTOMER PAID YOU TO DO, IN A QUALITY FASHION UP TO PUBLISHED STANDARDS OF THE CONSTRUCTION INDUSTRY. Until you prove that you can do this, engineers, architects, and even homeowners have every right to tell a builder how to do the job right!
*hey chris.... too bad you didn't hire the right builder....
*hey chris....next time do it yourself..your way.
*Chris, you hit the nail right on the head. It seems most of my career has been spent getting people to do what I was paying them for!-Rob
*Chris, I think you are showing us why your house was difficult to build. What is coming across is a "know it all attitude" (might be incorrect due to the web thing). I have never worked with an architect but have heard some stories. The attitude coming acros is in line with one of them. Will your house be perfectly built the very first time? Absolutely not. Will mistakes be caught and corrected? Probably. Will the delivered product meet your expectations? Only if the builder has managed those expectations. But an flexible attitude and a good relationship (with give and take on both sides) with your builder goes a long ways. As to subs cutting corners. They are boxed in by the system. Did you offer to pay 20-50% more than the builder's first estimate? Maybe then he could afford to have subs at your site full time. We occasionaly have a contractor ask for special trips or say that I need this site very clean. At that point the price goes up. Sometimes up to 4x's. Did that once and clients started asking about why our invoices were so high! Well extra service means extra costs. And yes this means if the homeowner (engineer or not) is on site twice daily then our price starts to go up.
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Prior Planning Prevents Piss-Poor Performance; if you planned your move on an estimated finish date and made no provisions for an interim stay it's your fault. Same with your mortgage lock-down. They are just a crapshoot in the first place and a way for the mortgage company to scrape out the bottom of your wallet.
If this house was as poorly built as you claim,it would have been a lot farther behind than 6 weeks. In the winter. In Seattle. With no weekend work, no work on sunny days, no work when the wind blows, or whatever. Not to mention re-working all that crappy work.
Like most customers who "know a little" you don't know dick about scheduling and dealing with the 50+ trades it takes to build a house. You are all too ready to put your lack of planning on the builder's back.
As far as unjustified charges go, $200 trip charge for a second coat on a wood floor is not where I would be looking. That's just what wood floors cost, you should have gotten vinyl if you can't afford it.
By the way, "2-10 Warranty" is provided by a separate underwriter, not the builder themselves. Try getting in touch with them to iron that part out.
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What did the building inspectors have to say about all the shoddy craftsmanship? Around here they can fail it even if it meets code but looks ugly. C'mon man, we want to see a hangin', inspectors, contractors, homeowners...we don't care, we just want to see someone swingin' from the end of a rope.
*Chris Zeto, I think Joel hit the nail one the head. I would also like to know did you represent yourself as the GC for the job and sub out to a contractor? How about this for a homeowner nightmare. A homeowner decided to GC a very complicated project herself to save money. She had bought a house several miles from her own house, had it moved to her existing house and attached the two together. This was done on a small island in south jersey. I was hired by her to trim out the house. Which I did. The house soon began to sink due to bad soil survey's and footing details (no pilings were used). The homeowner then sued everyone who set foot on the project. Including me. I thought I left with a good relationship. It cost me ten times in lawyers fee's then I made on the project. I also don't appriciate you giving us the builders name without him defending himself. I hope he somehow gets the message and we hear his side of the story. This looks like a case of bad management by yourself.TC
*I am not defending a contractor that does shoddy work, but without his input all this is just gossip. I work only for government entities now but spent many years with the general public. I did not mean to offend the engineers and architects out there as a whole. I work with them on a daily basis. Generally , they are like the rest of the population meaning some are good at what they do and some don't have a clue. I worked on a project last year with the same group of contractors I have worked with many times. A very high quality group of people. The architect that designed the project was as clueless as anyone I have encountered in all my years of construction work. His way of avoiding blame for all his shortcomings was to blame whichever contractor was the closest. Instead of taking the heat for his mistakes he just kept digging himself into a bigger hole. Needless to say, the job was a disaster. If this discussion is to have any integrity, we need some information from the contractor. If he is getting bashed unjustifiably, then he would want to defend himself. If not, then he is what he is. In the abscense of that, then maybe a more complete and detailed list of the issues with this project. So far all I can determine is that there was an extra charge for some floor work. If this project was managed by engineers like the ones I work with there would have been a document a foot thick detailing everything from acceptable building materials to when you could blow your nose. If this was the case, then we wouldn't be talking about it here. All details would have been cut and dried "before" the project started.
*Chris Zito,
View Image © 1999-2000"The first step towards vice is to shroud innocent actions in mystery, and whoever likes to conceal something sooner or later has reason to conceal it." Aristotle
*Hey Chris,Ever tried to pee in the cup while someone watched, its pretty hard to do. The worst thing you can do is visit the site 3 to 4 times more often than the builder. How quickly would you work if some one walking into you office each day and watched you work or looked thru all of your paper work and told you how to do your job.If you had been my client, you would have NOT discussed anything with SUBS. If there was a problem you go to the builder. And he or she address the sub.I love for my clients to visit the job site as often as they like, but I ask that they visit after work hours when possible. Do they have the right to visit whenever they want, sure, its there house, but it interrupts the rythum and makes work harder. As a builder, it is not a problem for me to stand around with one of my crews on site and walk around making notes or phone calls. BUT when a sub if working on a house, I make my daily visit say hello ask if he has any questions, and I leave. They have the right to work without feeling like fish in a tank.I ask as may other, Was HE the low bidder?????
*David, good point on site visitsWill - If houses were built with government grade bid packages they would cost 100 times more. I know, I have assembled them - just did one for a water treatment plant in massachusetts. It took 8 pages to describe a dust collector.-Rob
*I'm gonna make a few phone calls today and see if I can't locate Dave Wideman, and the Big Sky Builders in Silverdale WA. I gotta hear his side, and see if he can get online and read what has been written about him and defend himself. Keith C
*Did you notice that not only is the builder charging too much, Chris' "lawyer has gotten too expensive." So now he's gonna do the legal work himself. I wonder if Chris knows anything about libel law. Might need some help there. I'm beginning to see a pattern here. I sure hope he doesn't need surgery soon, can't you just see it -- "OK Doc, I've paid you enough money, now I'm gonna take over and do this job properly!!"
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I designed and built my own home about 8 years ago. It helped that my brother in law was the builder.
I too, ran into cost overruns, mistakes, workmanship issues and delays with weeks between activity at times.
Near the end of the project, my uncle, a big time builder (1,000s of apartments and homes), while in town near the end of my project said to me, "I'll guess your about 3 months behind schedule and about 25% over budget?". Well, I knew I was 3 months behind, it was September and we planned to move in June. Taking a few minutes to add up costs, I had had to admit we were already close to 20% over budget."
Needless to say I was impressed. "How did you know?" I asked.
He answered, "Its in the nature of the beast. Building a home, especially a custom home, is not like building cars on an assembly line. Contractors, have their own ideas, will cause delays and make mistakes, owners always upgrade products and change plans or work already completed. It usually adds up to about 3 months and 25%.
You know, he was right. Every friend and relative I have watched build a home since then has run into simlar issues and eventually fit in the 3 month, 25% framework.
A lot of people here have advised you to forget it. I think I would have to agree.
Your builder sounds about the same as any other. Missing a trip charge for a second coat of floor paint or using contractors on other projects, instead of yours or not communicating to your satisfaction is all a matter of managing his resources to complete work he needs done -- his needs and timing may not match yours.
Check in your area about the 3 month 25% thing. Your mortgage guy will probably tell you 3 months late is not unusual especially for custom homes. Owners often make changes or demand rework that costs time and/or money, then get mad at the builder, who is trying to maintain his profit.
I know I did that. I decided to upgrade furnaces, added a fireplace in the basement and changed electrical outlets etc. My wife thought they installed the wrong color marble and actually tore it out herself, when the builder balked. We used our own cabinet guy, who took over a month to get them done, and our own mirror guy, whome we waited on for two weeks.
You must have had some of the same -- everyone does! So get over it, and don't try to shift the blame to a good builder.
Want to know how I know he is a good builder?
None of your complaints had to do with the quality of your house. A bad builder could leave you with a leaky roof, loose siding, sagging floors, non draining walks or garage or any of a plethora of serious problems.
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so fred, what happened in '64 ?
*Rob,I am not advocating a government style bid package for homebuilders because they are far more detailed than what is necessary for a home. What I am saying is that basic details such as a penalty clause for late completion etc. need to be addressed up front. A contract can be one sentence or a foot thick but the basic fact remains that if you cannot agree on the details before the job starts, it will be alot harder later on. Don't expect someone to live up to certain expectations if they don't know what they are in advanve. Lets hear from the contractor.
*Fred64,
View Image © 1999-2000"The first step towards vice is to shroud innocent actions in mystery, and whoever likes to conceal something sooner or later has reason to conceal it." Aristotle
*Fred64,I would like to get my brother-in-law to read your post. I built his home in '88, built it within 5%, and 2 weeks ahead of schedule. It wasn't easy! Had a few setbacks that cost me some money to keep on schedule. It was more trying than I anticipated (relatives and all that) but I'm glad I built it, and I think he feels the same.John
*FredI need to hire your wife....I have a lot of demo work coming up..........is she good at it every week or only once a month as joe hinted..........Maybe I should find a crew of women who were in sync......I would come in 3 months sooner than projected and 25% under budget.....
*Several comments relative to the progression of this thread. I visit this site occasionally from Knots as I am more furniture oriented than construction. I am also a professional -- a wood technologist.My previous comment was directed towards the practice of creative addition on bills and I think it was appropriate as criticism of certain business attitudes and practices.I have enjoyed this thread -- I compliment the real restraint expressed in most of the responses by builders and building contractors. It is very apparent that those who responded are truly dedicated to quality work and customer service/satisfaction and want to eliminate truly unscrupulous contractors and substandard work.PE Zito in my opinion needs a large quantity of cheese to go along with his whine. It seems he came here expecting sympathy and to a great degree he got that -- but as the saying goes "if you are looking for sympathy, it is in the dictionary between sh!t and syphilis". He received wise counsel, I sometimes think he was expecting individuals to agree with his position as a compensatory satisfaction for the fact that his legal case is of questionable value. Some of his expressions sound somewhat self-righteous in my opinion.I read history, especially the history of technology. The clerics of the Middle Ages continually complained about lazy workers, over-charges, poor craftsmanship and delayed schedules relative to the building of the cathedrals yet somehow these structures have stood and endured for centuries. I think it is directly attributable to "professionals" and their general attitude to look down and distain those who work with their hands as being inferior humans.It truly would be interesting to hear the other side of the story. I would definitely like to hear how Mr. Zito's comments and criticism were received by the subs and workers. It is human nature to rebel after a chewing out especially when they know they were doing the best job they could or it was for a situation they were not even responsible for -- somewhere I heard that you need to compliment an individual three times for every negative comment such that one believes there is equality. I wonder how many times he brought food to share a lunch with the workers. I was involved with a fair number of mill studies (sawmills, flooring manufacturing and hardboard plants); generally the professional types split for lunch (often extended) at a restaurant while the workers went to the lunch room with their coolers and buckets. About 1/2 the time I made sure to eat with the workers so that I could better get to know them and to actually listen to their opinions and ideas. Not surprisingly they bitched about the bosses at about the same rate as the bosses bitched about them. In the best operations, there was very little bitching and more inter-personal appreciation of the efforts of everyone. All people want to be treated with respect and dignity -- one guy nearly lost his teeth when I suggested an improvement he told me about at lunch especially when I gave him credit for it. He had always been treated as a dumb worker. He actually knew more about the operation than the managers.Living in the PNW I know how depressing winters can be. As a individual without paid vacations and a fat salary, I cannot skip off to 10 days in Hawaii to recharge my batteries and improve my "attitude". I doubt that the workers had that luxury either and avoided the site so that they would not be further humiliated and so that it did not deepened the effects of a cold, dark, wet depressing winter. I would also hope that Mr. Zito understands the concepts of quality control -- that there is inate variability in everything (both materials and in processing). Were plus and minus tolerances specified in the original contract or was Mr. Zito expecting unattainable perfection?. What I hear from Mr. Zito is a considerable amount of intolerance. When I build furniture, the drawings represent an ideal but sometimes I'm a little off (sometimes some people think I am completely off), the materials move or something happens unexpectedly -- my expertise knows how to "fix" these things so that the final product is a quality item. I also understand that if it is made by humans, it can never be perfect. Do I do quality work? -- my web site is http://niemiecstudios.com One thing I will not tolerate in any way is criticism of work in progress which maybe explains the single nail example. If those types of gross errors were being made, the building inspectors should catch them. I hear a lot of "me first", "my house" that reminds me of infantile tantrums. It also seems that Mr.Zito spent a fair amount of time at the site and should pay some price for his personal entertainment. How many times when visiting did he offer to run a broom or haul scrap? In my humble opinion, elitism sucks! I also wonder if Mr. Zito's perfectionism would be the same if he was hired to oversee a similiar project.What goes around, comes around -- Mr. Zito did not trust the people doing the work and it seems that they fulfilled his expectations. It's too bad that contractors don't have something similar to the BBB that identifies butthead consumers so that they can be avoided.
*Stanley,For the most part, (with the notable exception of thinking the building inspector can inspect all the nailing) I think your post was spot on.Re: that "one nail" thing - that stuck in my mind as well. My thinking was that maybe these had just been tacked in place, to be finished being nailed off later by the apprentice. I've done plenty of that sort of approach to things!What really gets you is the customer that starts examining the work in the middle of the process - how do they know if I'm done just because I'm in the next room now or whatever? Don't worry folks - you can go over it w/ a fine-toothed comb once the tradesman (tradesperson?) lets you know they are finished.Speaking to the comments of others who have addressed the time-line issue ... don't go into a contract w/ liquidated damages for going over schedule w/out also negotiating a bonus for early completion ... document extra work requested or even bad weather as change orders that change the COMPLETION DATE - even if you are charging no extra money for the change. If a job demands (or a customer expects) weekend work, that carries a premium as well - law says you gotta pay your employees time-and-a-half, right? You wanna obey the law, right?Of course, I don't know all the particulars here in Mr. Zito's case .........Geo. Lentulo
*Exactly. I had a customer once that would come in at night and put Post-it-Notes all over everything. Don't think he had the nerve to come around during the day anymore. Funny how that job took forever. The final straw was when he took off his shoes and walked on the new sod to tell me where the uneven spots were. Still waiting for the other half of the story.
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>What really gets you is the customer that starts examining the work in the middle of the process - how do they know if I'm done just because I'm in the next room now or whatever? Don't worry folks - you can go over it w/ a fine-toothed comb once the tradesman (tradesperson?) lets you know they are finished.
At the risk of jumping into a hot frying pan, I do have a serious question, with no hidden agenda for asking: When is it ok to speak up and when should one shut up? When is it ok to look over shoulders and when not?
Examples: I GC'd my own house. I was always there, always the dirtiest, always did the sweeping up, always did the trash runs, always bought lunch if someone worked Sat. Like you suggested, I'd often wait until a trade was done to go over work, out of professional courtesy. Here's the risk in that:
* Plasterers covered over 6 electrical boxes in house. Only one was from blueboard, the rest was just the white-coaters being careless. I found 5 w/o any damage to the walls--luckily--but beat 9 holes in the last wall till we located it and the wires for the electricians. (Tried fox and hound, but it didn't work.) If I had been watching instead of doing my other work, I'd have saved a wall and about 4 hours of work. Which way to go if I had to do it again?
* Fireplace mason, subcontracted by another trade, would have stopped the f/p two block short of code height (the 2' above 10' over rule) if I hadn't climbed the scaffold and measured myself just as he was starting the cap. This doesn't seem like a time to wait till completion before measuring and then making him come back and reconstruct, does it?
* Electricians were stopped 3 seconds short of notching the flange of a tji. If I'd waited till the end, the damage would have been done and irreparable (or awfully expensive).
These were highly recommended subs. In general they did fine work, and all but one or two I'd recommend to others (or hire again if ever ccccrrrraaaazzzzyyyy enough to do all this again). But I can probably come up w/ 30 similar incidents, big and small, of mistakes-in-the-making caught by being a fly-on-the-wall and mistakes missed be/c I wasn't watching.
Do subs accept the _GC_ looking over their shoulder, as opposed to the homeowner?
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There is a big difference between being a GC and a homeowner. They aren't the same person. A GC spots stuff all the time. Mistakes do happen. Difference is the homeowner(customer) doesn't know. If you had been GCing this house for a real customer would you tell him all the little things that went wrong? When you are not used to it, it seems like a big deal when in reality every profession has its share of mistakes. I make mistakes too but usually am quick enough to find them and fix them before they are discovered.
*Jim K,As the GC it is your job if you know what your doing to make sure that stuff doesn't happen. Missing that, it becomes your job to take care of it. Either you've got subs that rarely make a mistake and you can trust them to do it right so you don't have to kill yourself to find the faults, or you do it on the casual, walk by or keep your eyes open and check it out. How you deal with the trades is an important part of it. Some guys got it and some don't. You've got to have trust built on quality and the ability to correct someone without making them feel like a two cent stamp. I think you've got the right idea, but one job doesn't always breed success. On that i gotta wish you the best of luck.
*George:Thanks for your affirmation.The "one nail" instances I was referring to is exactly as you stated -- spot nailing to be finished by another worker.With regard to the contemptuous attitudes of "professionals" toward manual workers; what can I say -- the reverse also exists. That is, skilled craftspersons generally think that "professionals" somehow cannot know anything about "real" building, or the real world. The "them versus us" syndrome exists on both sides of the fence.I have found from personal experience (having both some 13 years of trade background and a Master's degree in Wood Science and Utilization including academic research and teaching) that one cannot staddle the fence either and be accepted in both camps. Rather I have found that you end up accepted by neither. Somehow I could never wash my hands clean enough to satisfy the academics/professionals; and in the trades, I am over-qualified (a refrain I have repeatedly heard in applying for woodworking/finish carpenter jobs associated with my relocation and recovery from an illness). It sort of reminds me of stories I have heard about children of bi-racial coupling -- these children/people are of neither race (half-breeds), and unaccepted in both groups. People are not judged by their qualities and capabilities but by preconceived social group standards and that is also part of intolerant elitism that sucks!!!! We are a very bigoted, hateful species.Stanley
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Will, Calvin,
Thanks. What you wrote was pretty much confirmation of my intuition. The trickiest part was not having a history w/ these guys, so all the trust had to be built from scratch.
And there's no way I'm gonna confuse one job w/ doing this as a profession. As is, we got done w/o lost time accidents, we got our CO w/o grief or bribes, we got the quality we wanted, we made some friends, and my wife is delirious w/ happiness. No freakin' way I'd press my luck again. :) Cheers.
*Hi,I just read the original post from Chris Zito and felt I should comment since I was a sub on that particular job. I was both amused and chagrined by the second sentence. Here is how it should read: I am a registered PE, (read: I am so much smarter than you because I have this here degree) quite knowledgeable in home building, (read: I've seen some pictures in magazines) designed and drafted the home myself (read: For a lot that has a beautiful view of a lake, I designed a house with only one window facing the water.) Sure, Chris has a fairly good grasp of the overall concept, but was quite clueless about how subcontractors work with their GC. He constantly tried to get subs to do extra work, which many did on the assumption that the owner would make additional payment. Mr. PE then wondered why the bill was higher than the bid!! DUH!!! He seemed like a smart guy so the only thing I could figure out is that he thought he could pull one over on the "stupid, uneducated" subs. His constant meddling, changing and adding special requests dramatically slowed the entire job. It was my understanding that the job was halted a few times solely due to disagreements about payment for extras; requested by the owner, performed by the subs, and without builder approval. As for the weekend work schedule, I'm confused. The ancient Mayans were more adept at using a calendar. I personally worked on this job one Saturday and part of a Sunday in order to meet a deadline. I don't think he realized that change orders take time and most of the delays were actually caused by his own actions. It is an unfortunate situation but I think Chris should step up to the plate and take blame for the job not being completed on time. Maybe he should spend his time brushing up on his math -- $39,500 in small claims court? WooHee…that's some small court!!! See what I mean?
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I thing Mr. Zito, unfortunately is typical of many, if not most, degreed engineers. (I can say that because I am also a mechanical engineer, though not a P.E.) And as Andy confirms, he is also typical of many "custom" homeowners. If he is so "knowledgeable" of home building and design, then why didn't he GC his own house? Because he is ignorant of subcontractors and building materials. He understands some of the mechanics and systems involved, but he doesn't know how to "get it done" in the real world.
Which is exactly where I was 3 months ago when we started our house. I waited 6 months on the best framer I could find. I told him to "put in some extra" on his framing bid to cover the cost of his working with me, since I didn't know what I was doing. When I see something I don't understand, I ask questions. He answers them. We discuss it if we need to. He comes to me when he's not sure how I want something done. (Yes, I paid $800 for a complete set of prints, but things change, nothing's ever perfect, etc.) Mostly, I stay out of his way. I ask for his advice on subs, try to use who he likes and is used to working with and explain why when I use someone else. He is a reasonable man, as I am. I respect his knowledge, he respects that it's my money we're spending.
This is a worst case scenario, but I'm self-employed, and live just across the road from the new house. I go over whenever I want (it's my house), look, ask a question if I need to, but mostly stay out of the way. And yes, I do all the cleaning up (after hours), take them food (home-made ice cream, watermellon, fruit, etc), compliment them on a good job when appropriate. We are friends now. But we'll never be "buddies." And I will never be a general contractor, so I try not to act like one. It's no secret that I'm a semi-knowledgeable homeowner who is dependent on the people he hires to do the work they know best how to do, and I try not to bug 'em too much. They don't have a problem with that.
And, yes, we will be 3 months and 25% over budget when we are all done (but I knew that when we started).
*This is exactly why my subs are instructed by me to do no extras without MY approval. If they do, they are on their own in collecting.John
*I must admit that there were some very good subs on the job, and you, Andy, must have been one of them since you paid attention only to your precise work and not to any other matters. The last time I counted, there were 10 windows directly facing the lake (6 with unobstructed views, 4 with partial views), and 9 windows on other sides of the house with angled views of the lake. A PE must have much more than a degree--look up the requirements to be a PE before making a remark about PE's. I don't just read about home building, but I've performed all aspects of home building in the past (except sheet metal work and site excavation), just not on a single home. Back in Connecticut I did home building (including framing, electrical, plumbing, roofing) for my uncle (who is a GC), and I drafted and designed actual homes for my father (who is a registered Architect) for over 15 years. Just because home construction isn't someone's full-time profession doesn't mean that they lack any qualifications to discuss, supervise, or actually contribute to the construction of a home. I notice that you give no specific examples of "constant changes", etc., yet you make unsubstantiated accusations. I did make some changes during the project, but only after speaking with the builder and having the changes updated in the plans and specs. None of those changes resulted in the long delays that I'm talking about. Two changes resulted in single-day delays and were the result of the builder not complying with the specs (for example, ordering a lower-quality species of lumber.) Any changes that I authorized either verbally or in writing were paid for. In some cases, a subcontractor overcharged the builder, and the builder simply passed them on to me without QA'ing the charges. For example, during the excavation for my home, the subcontractor charged over $5000 for "extra" excavation. Apparently, the builder did not check the validity of the subcontractor's charges, which he should have due to the relative size of the charge. Completely shocked and not expecting such a large bill, I questioned the charges. I broke out my tape measure and a calculator and mathematically proved that the volume of extra dirt excavated was actually only 40% of the volume (after considering the greatest possible uncompaction due to digging) claimed by the subcontractor. The builder agreed to my argument and I paid the 40%.Similarly, just last week the Toyota dealer where I had my car serviced charged me twice for labor, which would have been impossible for me to catch had I not carefully looked at my bill, noticed the unusually high charge, and looked at their job pricing book. Toyota provided good customer service in admitting to their mistake and corrected the charges. Most of the time this kind of overcharging is accidental, yet happens more frequently to consumers than they suspect. I get the impression from some of the discussion here at the Fine Homebuilding forum that new home customers should be completely passive and let the builder do his job (no questions asked), and subsequently allow corners to be cut and to "eat" all charges that never would have been discovered without careful observation! You will never convince myself nor any other savvy consumer to blindly pay the bill that's in front of them!Andy, I was there both days of every weekend for the entire construction, doing minor projects myself (such as pipe insulation and soffit framing, with the builder informed) and sweeping up the garbage, and can testify that the only weekend work performed (and only for a few hours) was during the last month for two weekend days (one for drywall taping, the other for finish carpentry.)I'm very aware of the award limit ($2500) in small claims court in Washington. There is no limit on what you can claim, only on what can be awarded. Andy, please, give examples and state the truth.
*What a goof...I believe the sub...never the engineer...or peckerhead..or whatever you call them in your state.
*
I think we should make 'em start carrying slide rules and wearing pocket protectors so ya can see 'em coming.Just like the high school geek Mr. PE obviously was,is...whatever.
"I broke out my tape measure and a calculator...".
*
Sounds like two generals and a lost war. I guess this is why on ships there is only one captain -two captains want to go in different directions so they cut the ship in half and they both sink! DAH - is there a moral here!!!!!
*Chris - Looks like you're outnumbered here, and I am just a numbskull engineer so I can be of no help.I'll throw a useless stereotypical non personal barb and say that I am surprised a sub can use the word chagrined!!Actually folks, in many states you can become a licensed engineer/architect/surveyor/based solely on experience without ever setting foot in a school or reading a single book! You do need to be able to read though, the test is written.-Rob
*
He tan I think you are missing the point here. I am not sure what your point is with the inter-racial babies, but I don't think it has one thing to do with building a house. From all of the carp you are spreading about how you are a misunderstood victim of your own education I just don't get it. How about this concept you treat people the way you want to be treated, with courtesy and respect. Then you won't believe it, they reciprocate with the same attitude toward you...
The real reason I am responding is to let you and any of the other pompous asses that read this to know that Mr. sideman built the home I am sitting in writing this mail, and you won't believe what you are about to read... I got everything that I asked for that I was willing to PAY for. I had a thousand questions during the process and I have to say that Mr. sideman answered every one of them. When Mr. sideman wasn't available his staff took the ball and ran with it.
The quality of the home I have is unsurpassed. I fired two of the local builders prior to meeting Dave and I have to say that I feel lucky that the builders I had for my original home didn't work out.
I am not going to go into every detail about what a good guy Dave is, but I will tell you this. I have recommended him and his company to any and all of my friends knowing that entering into a deal with him will insure that you have a quality home built in a timely manner.
In closing I have to ask one question of you folks that have all of these excuses for being shunned by the building trade such as your just to damned educated or you are recovering from a recent illness. What is the true REASON not EXCUSE you have for not acting as your own AC and building these homes yourselves?
*
Well, that was interesting. Joe H
*"He" Curtis, what the "he" was that? I am absolutely shocked that a person with a demonstrated 2nd-grade level of grammar can hold down a job and earn enough to have a decent house built for him!Mr. Zito has presented nothing but facts, nothing but completely logical and believable arguments, and describes situations similar to those I have encountered numerous times as a former new construction homeowner, BBB dispute resolution counselor and as a licensed housing inspector. The hostility directed toward Mr. Zito, engineers, and actively-involved homeowners by a few individuals at this forum is deplorable and unfortunately lessens the honor and credibility of the home-building profession. In my career I have seen countless instances where a GC or subcontractor made repeated bookkeeping mistakes in their financial favor, were caught by the wise consumer, then were outraged because they were caught and developed a get-you-back attitude for the remainder of the project. To lash out at this individual simply because he's made absolutely credible accusations that may slightly mar the image of your profession is a blatant sign of weakness and fear, as if you were personally "caught" in similar situations in your past.
*Bryan,To suggest that none of us know what we are doing is just plain wrong. No?Working b withnothing but satisfied customers.BC
*Mr Zito has provided nothing but facts? How do you know? Ever listened to a one sided argument before? So look down at someone that does not have a complete grasp of the English language. This is not an essay here and I myself sometimes make typos and grammatical errors. Does that make me a moron? The one thing I am puzzled about here is the "strong case" that he has against the builder. For what? Shoddy work? The $200.00 trip charge? If the case would have been strong the attorney may have taken it on a percentage basis. One post indicated that he was overcharged $39000.00. Then it seems it would be the builder with the lawsuit trying to recover the money. Did the homeowner pay it and is now trying to get it back? Some of these subs and others may not be school educated to an obnoxious degree but I'll bet that they are very educated relative to their craft. A trade is not something you learn in a short while but one that takes years of experience. It all boils down to one thing. An "experienced" engineer like this should be able to have a contract with all these things included. Ever hear of a signed change order? They do work and are binding.When are we going to hear the builders side of the story?
*Calvin, I do not suggest that home builders and subs do not know what they are doing. On the contrary, most are extremely capable, knowledgeable, and provide satisfied customers. My point is that there is a very small percentage who try to get away with intentionally cheating the customer. There is also a very small percentage who cheat the customer by accident or through sloppy bookkeeping, yet exhibit extremely poor customer service and professionalism when their client confronts them with the issue. Some of the contributors to this forum seem to deny that this could be possible!
*Chris-Been looking in on this thread as it's evolved (devolved,) and seems to me like there is yet what to be gleaned. I am the one of the terse Caveat Emptor post. I feel that if you'd be willing to walk us through the process you used to select your Contractor/Builder the thread might move up into the sunlight of "living and learning" and away from "de basement."TIA-'Lance
*Ok bud, my mistake.To me, CZ's big problem was he didn't do his homework before he started. This is a tough world. He's learning how to live in it costly as it is. Here's hoping no one else has problems with anything in the future. Well, one can hope....
*
I too have been watching this thread for some time.
It would seem to me that the bottom line is this:
Chris contracted with this builder to build a home. Aparently, Chris was not exactly clear as to what the quality standard was of his builder prior to signing the contract. Now that Chris has upped that quality standard, he is unwilling to pay the additional $ and time required for the added services.
What you have got to wonder about is if Chris had never set foot on site during construction, would the project have come in on-time and on-budget!?
*
They say hindsight is 20/20. It's also easy to badmouth someone else's work. That said,if the timelines wee that important to you, then you should have retained a contract that said so via fines/ liquidated damages- although I never saw a contractor in his right mind who would take on a residential job with liquidated damages unless there was something in it for him if he beat the deadline.
Also, if you're so well versed in construction, then you know there are always delays. It also looks like he went over by about 6 weeks. How long was the project to last for originally?
Did you check his references or did you just take the lowest bid and hoped for the best.
While I agree with you on some of your points, you should forget the lawyer-what the hell will that get you? Alot of wasted time and more lost money. Chaulk it up to experience. The guy does sound like a loser though.
*Crusty - assuming you are representing yourself accuratly, I hope you & yours have been breeding like rats, or, more elegantly, may your tribe increase. You sound inordinatly sane, and we shure could use more of those.
*
Hi,
I was also a subcontractor on this job and was informed about this discussion by a fellow sub and decided to enter into the fray. I was the finish carpenter on this home and was installing the newel posts on the staircase when I first met the homeowner. The first thing he asked me was "Have you ever done this before?" A multitude of non-professional responses raced through my brain but in my good judgement, simply responded, "Yes." I knew already that it was going to be a trying job.
I would like to share how Chris's chronic interruptions interfered with my work schedule. For example, I had all of the upper cabinets stacked in the living room in their original packaging, leaving the dining room clear for a work area. One morning I arrived at work to find the cabinets lined up side by side in the dining room mimicking their future position in the kitchen. Each one had been marked by Chris to denote its exact location. I assumed he figured I could not read a cabinet layout plan and required his help. Funny thing was he had the cabinets in the wrong order and they would not have fit as marked. Now that the cabinets were in my way, I had to restack them back where I had originally placed them. I realize he was just trying to be helpful, but time wasted like this comes directly out of my pocketbook.
Numerous times he would tell me how to do something and was always asking me to do 'extras' not approved by the builder. The one I remember the most was that he wanted wood wrap around his sliding glass door whereas the specs called for sheetrock. He must have asked me every other day to wrap the door with wood. There was no material onsite to do this project and one day he actually told me to call the supplier and order the materials. When I explained to him (again) that ordering materials was not within my capacity on this job, he asked me to just use some scraps or something. Picking up a board from the floor he said, "Use this." It was then I had to explain to him that the board he was holding was 3 feet long and the door was 7 feet high, therefore the board was too short. I think he actually wanted me to piece together a door frame with scraps free of charge. Not exactly the kind of thing you'd expect to hear from someone who is "quite knowledgeable in homebuilding." Much time was wasted over incidents like this one and I figure he cost me a couple hundred dollars in lost time. These are the types of recurring frustrations I dealt with while on this job, and talking with the other subs, the same held true for them.
While I'm at it, I guess I should recount the debacle with the electrician as I recall it from the crew. The electrical contractor bid the job based on the number of outlets, switches, etc. Chris had special requirements on locations and equipment and had done the layout himself. When the crew showed up to wire, they thought - this is great, its already laid out - and proceeded to run wire. When the bill came due the price was much higher than the bid and being livid over the outrageous price, Chris refused to pay what he deemed 'inflated numbers'. As it turns out he had added a very large number of extra outlets, switches, and lights during his layout. Had the EC not recounted the outlets and billed accordingly, Chris would have cheerfully paid the original bid price therefore succeeding in his blatant attempt to take financial advantage of the sub. I find it ironic that Chris applauds Toyota for admitting to a billing mistake when he shows obvious disregard for equitable payment of services.
Based on my experiences and talking with other subs, the delays were not caused solely by the builder, but with Chris as well. I have trimmed a number houses for this builder and all in all his clients are very happy with their new homes.
I have dealt with all types homeowners over the past 20 years and I personally didn't have a problem working with Chris, and I think he was happy with the workmanship I provided on his home. It is unfortunate that this situation had to come to verbal blows, but I felt compelled to set the record straight.
*
Sounds to me like he is just trying to find someone to validate his whining. Again, the one sided argument always sounds right.
*P.S. I meant Chris Z not the sub. After reading my response I thought it may be confusing.
*It was Sylvia, I guessed right.
*Greg G. You are my hero. It seems like the contractor is always getting blamed for projects gone wrong. No one ever takes into account that we have to be low bid to get the job and the homeowners think that because they're spending all this money we should throw in a ton of free extra's. There is no shame in making a few bucks on change orders. On low bid jobs it is the only way to walk away wiyh a few bucks in your pocket. Why aren't we allowed to earn a living just like everyone else? And if the architects and engineers did their job there would not be any change orders. Yet we are the ones who are blamed when changes have to made. Thanks for letting me blow that out.TC
*Well, looks like Mr.Zito lost heart for this thread, perhaps after realizing that he was creating a substantial file of commentary that would do little to help his case if adduced at trial. One can only assume then that his only motive in posting here was soapbox slander (or libel, as it were.) Paradoxically, the only thing he may have accomplished- since he didn't ultimately clarify anything about how he came to "get in bed" with his builder- is to have publicized the fact that his house was completed under duress, ie. with serious quality issues. Additionally, the lack of foresight he evinced when considering (or not considering) the possible evolution of this thread points to the posession of a mentality obsessively enamored of its own, somewhat feckless perspective.
*Yeah! What he said!
*Chris, why have you avoided the question of why you failed to act as your own general contractor? You say you are eminently qualified. You obviously spent a lot of time on the job. Why didn't you just do it yourself? As I said, I'm an engineer and GC'ing my own house. But I also intend to do my own trim, most of the floors, the wiring, staircase, insulation prep. I've had a number of people ask about doing those jobs and I've offered to pay them a "consulting fee" to give me a few pointers -- I tell them I'm not sure exactly how to do some things, but with their "expert" advice I can figure it out and do a credible job, though I'm sure much slower. They don't fault me for wanting to do it myself and seem pleased that I'd actually pay them for "advice" (instead of just trying to "pick their brains" for free).A GOOD engineer is capable of actually doing the work because he recognizes the limits of his knowledge and possess keen observation and reasoning skills - he knows he doesn't know, but can figure it out. A TYPICAL engineer thinks he knows more than he does, has an inflated ego, and can't actually DO very much; this creates (ironically) low self-esteem and causes him to talk down to and blame others for his own mistakes and omissions.
*Crusty - I think I fall into your "GOOD" classification. Just for the record - or dare I say FTR?-RobI started FTR - right here, right now. You all witnessed
*Sorry, I've been using FTR for months. EKT (everyone knows that). You owe me a nickel.
*Is the nickle for license? Like shareware. If it's like shareware, I'll "register later."-Rob
*
I just moved into a new construction home in April, and unfortunately I have a horrendous story to tell. I am a registered PE, quite knowledgeable in home building, designed and drafted the home myself. Throughout the building process, my relationship with the builder deteriorated. I became more and more angry due to the poor quality of his work, due to his reluctance to communicate with me, due to his numerous attempts to overcharge me or pass on unjustified charges by his subcontractors, by his poor handling of materials (stowage, wrong materials, etc), and by the fact that he couldn't manage the project timeline. That was the first problem: The contract called for the house to be completed by Feb 28th. We ended up moving in on April 19th, lost our mortgage rate protection and points paid to secure the rate protection, paid additional interest and risk insurance during construction. I kept a detailed diary of the daily events, and can account for at least 45 week days when no subs were on site. Not a single weekend was worked, either. I discovered that the same subs that were taking their time on my project were time-sharing their work on a more expensive project nearby for the same builder. On rainy days the subs would be at my project. On sunny days, they worked on another project. I currently see many other projects going up in the neighborhood where the subs are working weekends. Obviously, my builder had no concern over meeting the contract time line. My lawyer says that I have a case against this builder for breech of contract and can recover the extra costs of my mortgage.
Problem 2: A month after we moved in, we got several bills adding up to $700 (he incorrectly added them up to $950), each bill was completely unjustified (for example, $200 trip charge for a 2nd coat on a hard wood floor, re-work to fix original mistakes by subcontractors, etc.) Additionally, we had not yet received our 2-10 warranty. I wrote a letter disputing all of the unjustified charges. He wrote back, threatening a lien on our house. We sought a lawyer who crafted a seemingly strong letter telling the builder to give us our warranty and then leave us alone. The builder still refuses to provide the warranty and still threatens a lien (although he's gone past the 90-day statute of limitations).
My lawyer has gotten too expensive and said there's really nothing more he can do for us that would be worth his cost, but advised us to go through small claims court. We plan on going to small claims court to get our $800 back for the 2-10 warranty. Unfortunately, we've learned from our lawyer that this builder has a bad reputation. Our immediate neighbor had a house built by this builder and had similar, though less severe, problems. I feel like I've been screwed and would just like this nightmare to end!
Incidentally, I may have my builder on tax fraud. He charged me state sales tax on the $2600 worth of permits on my home, which I picked up and paid for myself!!! The one time I sneaked a peak at his paperwork, I discovered that he was charging me tax on appliances that were already taxed by the supplier!!!
Should I go after the builder in small claims court for the additional mortgage cost ($100/month-30 years + $1000 interest + $2500 rate cap points)? Should I do everything legally within my right to advertise his ruthless tactics, poor building and management practices, etc.?
Let me begin here: his name is Dave Wideman, his company is Big Sky Builders, in Silverdale, WA.
*FineHomeRantings....near the stream,ajWhen this is done with(which it will be when you decide it is), you will start to feel better...too bad you hired a good contractor and now you are suing a bad contractor...is he good or bad?...
*Ouch! Looks like you've learned an expensive lesson. The time to check his references was before you hired him, and a lawyer then could have drafted a contract that protects you -- you can bet the contract he had you sign protects only him. He likely has heard all this before and is not likely to be intimidated. Be careful about "going after him" -- you could get yourself into trouble. He may be able to afford an attorney when you can't.I'm GC'ing my own house at the present and I've taken a different approach. I work only with people that I know, I do not dicker over what they tell me it will cost, I pay for all the materials, and I haven't signed ANY contracts. If they don't do the work to suit me, they won't get paid. Since nothing is in writing, we are on equal footing, except that I've got the money. It won't happen, but if they took me to court, what could they do. I haven't borrowed any money and I plan to be in this house the rest of my life.
*Sounds like your lawyer is giving you good advice. See what you can get in small claims court. Then move on with your life. Billing out as a PE pays much better than working as your own bill collector. At least it does for me.Seems unlikely that a court would give you all the loan penalties for his being slow. (Would you owe him if interest rates had fallen?) Besides, the present worth of damages you are claiming is about $17,000 on the loan plus $800 on the warranty - way over the small claims limit but bearly into lawyer domain. Then move on with your life. Billing out as a PE pays much better than working as your own bill collector. At least it does for me. Fortunately, some PE's had reputable contractors helping on their houses 6 months ago: http://www.alaska.net/~dthomasI doubt it is illegal, just stupid, to pay tax on something twice - as long as he really sent the tax payments in. He may get a lot of his stuff wholesale, some retail, not keep track, and tax everything - it's only your money anyway.You can bad mouth him, but even if true, he can come back at you for slander (or libel if written). You can threaten him but you have windows, he has bricks. You have kneecaps, he may have friends. It quickly begs the question, how far do you want to take this? Good Luck, David
*When I had trouble w/ a neighbor/developer and talked w/ my lawyer about suing him, my atty asked me, "How do you want to spend your next year? In court looking at someone you despise, or at home with your family?" We probably coulda won, but at what price to happiness? Only you can decide what's worthwhile. Look for a high road that doesn't leave you feeling like a sucker.
*Chris, some of your losses are compensable, some are not. You can recover in small claims court (to the limit of the court's jurisdiction, which is usually around $3000 but may differ in your area) all overcharges whether for materials, tax or otherwise, and cost of repair for unacceptable work. You cannot recover for the extra cost of your mortgage. Consequential damages are not recoverable for a breach of contract. For this purpose, you would have needed a penalty clause for not finishing on time.If your GC was as bad as you say, the time to learn was before. He likely isn't too worred about what you say or do. He's probably being chased by plenty of people before you, and isn't going to lose sleep over your problems.The answer was to have a lawyer prepare a contract before you started, not to write a letter afterwards. Someone like this will just take the letter and smack you in the head with it. He's can't sue you for slander, since truth is a complete defense.If you love your house otherwise, than do what you have to do and let go. Enjoy your house rather than make it a monument to anger and frustration. If you don't let go, you will never enjoy a moment in your house. It's no way to live.SHG (this is not legal advise, just an observation)
*Hi Chris,I agree with SHG on most of his points.Keeping a detailed log of events does not guarantee success in court. As a PE and claiming to know construction you will find that you failed to take appropriate action in a timely fashion.It was your responsibility to stop the work in progress and solve it immediately.My comments would be for you to not follow through with any actions against this individual other than filing a complaint with whatever regulatory agency in your jurisdiction that monitors poor business practices or construction licencing and leave it at that.I doubt that he will follow through in court to try and collect what he knows to be a poor case.DO TRY TO ENJOY YOUR NEW HOME AND CHALK THIS UP TO A GROWING PAIN.Sorry,Gabe
*No weekend work?....That unethical bastard! And there was'nt a sub or some work going on everyday. The cement truck should be there, just as soon as the trackhoe pulls out the last scoop, and the gravel truck should be passing the cement truck leaving. The block truck should be waiting for the gravel to get unloaded, and a full load of masons SHOULD be there to place the cubes of block, to better facilitate efficient material movement. I mean MY jobs go just like that, and as I see on Hometime, and This Old House ol' Dean Johnson and Tommy Silva do it that way also( so EVERY contractor must right?). The auto assembly plants work that way, it's called "just in time" where every material piece and person arrives just in time to do the job, therefore eliminating any wasted time, inventory, and movement. I think your builder is being inefficient and wasteful, he's wasting your time and money....I'd sue him. What does everyone else think? PS. what is PE? project engineer, Phys ed., ...oh I pray it isn't that engineer word.
*There are to sides to every story.I am willing to bet the contractor involved could rant just as entertainingly(and informatively).Most likely the truth is somewhere in-between.No weekend work? That's a good one!good Luck All,Stephen
*Caveat Emptor, especially if you can't build it yourself and especially especially if you're spending tight money to have someone else do it.
*There are plenty of legal ways to bad mouth the guy and not get slandered.We had a few people buy ads in the paper around here that said things like "I had Dave Wideman build me a home and it was completed too late, I was overcharged and I am entirely unhappy with the quality of my new home."Another read something like "In my opinion Dave Wideman is a bum loser"Joe Lstiburek has a slide of all kinds of remedial work and EIFS failure being fixed on a guys house, and the owner had painted "Built Proudly by (iNSERT ACTUAL NAME HERE)" accross the front in 3' tall letters while the work was going on.Spend the next year in court, or kill him with word of mouth you decide.I will add that if you do your homework ahead of time, you will know firsthand the quality of the work that you will get.-Rob
*Chris,Your experience and quandary sound all too familiar to me. Last year my wife and I were faced with some of these same decisions after our remodel and addition project turned into a nightmare. Briefly, some background:Project was 60+ days past deadline when our contractor disappeared. We hired another contractor to finish, ended up 4+ months past original deadline just to have the house livable. Total cost was nearly double original contract amount, plus subcontractor liens (from the first contractor), plus temporary living expenses for 4+ months. First contractor filed for bankruptcy approximately 60 days after he disappeared.Here's some insight into how we made our decisions: We felt, as did our attorney, that could we win (probably easily) in court. However, we also knew (or had strong belief) even before the bankruptcy filing that our contractor didn't have the ability to pay any judgment that we might be awarded. Even though we were talking about a significant amount of money (at least to us it was significant), we concluded that spending more on attorney's fees would be throwing good money after bad.By the time our contractor skipped town, we were already physically and emotionally drained (my wife was 7 months pregnant with our second child), but we still weren't in the house. Our focus at that point was on getting the house livable and keeping our family intact. I hated feeling like we just gave up, but we had to be realistic about our remaining capacity to launch a new crusade to chase our original contractor through the legal system. I also came to realize that although it was our contractor who committed the illegal or unethical acts, and that I didn't "do" anything wrong, I still had to bear a large (maybe the largest) measure of responsibility for the whole disaster. After all, I hired the guy! I dare say that had I done the proper due diligence in advance of signing the contract, I wouldn't be able to commiserate with you.Ultimately, we wanted to move on with our life more than we wanted to ruin our contractor's. (Actually, he was doing a pretty good job of ruining his life without our help). It was not easy to let go or to accept some of the blame. It will take us a long time to recover financially, and the house still isn't completely finished (although it's very comfortable), but on the whole, we felt that we were better off worrying about us than about him.Obviously, each situation is unique, but I hope that some of this will be helpful to you as you make some hard choices.P.S. - Not that we have totally given our contractor a pass for his actions - we have filed a complaint with the state construction board, and here in Florida there is a state-run recovery fund that we hope to access, but it's not costing any money and we're not spending every waking hour thinking about it any more. For the building professionals, please don't take this posting as a rant against the whole profession. I realize that my experience is the exception, not the rule, and I share it only as a possible help to others.
*Jeff...you sound past your rant....nice post...near the stream,ajlets all do our homework next time...
*We Definitely need the other side of the story here. Bells go off when I see things like I'm quite knowledgeable about construction, I designed and drew it myself, and it was supposed to be done in Feb. Winter projects take alot longer, and this was in a winter climate no? If you are really picky, you would never do a winter house. Would anyone in there right mind, and looking for help, go into a doctors club and ask advise on a malpractise case.....c'mon ....and then to name names..someone local call this builder and get his side. Keith C
*Keith: PE is Professional Engineer, someone who has 6-10 years of schooling and supervised experience, passes a national exam plus any additional state-specific exams or requirements (seismic and surveying in California, cold-weather engineering here in Alaska). Like contractors, doctors, and lawyers, we come in a spectrum from very good to amazingly bad. And like some contractors can do some good engineered solutions to problems (and others can't), some PE's can build houses (and others can't). But generally, I would trust a bridge designed by a contractor before I would trust a roof framed by an engineer.
*How do you actually do the 'homework' to find a good GC? When trying to find someone for an addition, I ran up against a wall. You can ask all the right questions, and you get all the right answers. You can look at their references, but it's hard to find one that is similar to what you are doing (at least for an addition). Plus when the work is already completed you can't see many of the mistakes, so it's hard to find out if it was really done right. Most people are too polite to badmouth their builder. I asked a guy point blank if he was happy with his home and he said yes. I found out later from someone else in the neighborhood that he has had a perpetual roof leak since the day they moved in (a year before I asked the question), resulting in a molded, mildewed wall and ceiling. A search of NARI turns up 0 in my state (UT). Unless people are REALLY angry, they don't report to the BBB. So, how do you do this homework that yields a good builder? Is there a resource where you can actually match complaints with builders? One that lists the good builders?
*amy... you do what people always do.. you try to find the opinion of someone who is knowledgeable ... that you trust, that may have a vested interest in you getting a good job.."" birds of a feather, flock together""do you have a painter , or aplumber who has the qualities you are looking for ?well they know a GC who has those qualities also..know a lawyer who does a lot of real estate closings ?bet he has an opinion or two..got a favorite lumber yard or hardware store where you get good service and they have a good sense for integrity..... think they want to give you a bum steer ?""oh sure , you say, they're going to recommend a friend...""not if the friend is going to make them look bad..and of course, what you get is only based on past performance...no guarantee of future results... but it is an indication...also, when times are a little more competitive, i definitely give a list of current satisfied customers...that i have permission to use their names..are they indicative.. you bet.. i have no control over what they say to you, i may pick and choose, but you will get a good idea of how they were treated..does the contractor live in your town ? does he /she have a permanent place of business, wether or not it is their home ?how long have they been in business... experience counts ... of course , so does youth and enthusiasm... so keep a sharp look-out for those rough -cut diamonds..when you interview them, do you have a good fit... i get along best with customers who are looking for a good business RELATIONSHIP, maybe you like the kind you may never see again... different strokes..how do you buy a car? are you satisfied ?do you shop price .. or service.. ?these are some of the things that determine your decision...
*Chris:Just to get a few facts on your situation:Aprox how many square feet (finished/unfinished) is the home you had built?What was the time period specified in the contract allowed to build the project?Was the construction "standard" stuff or did you use some cutting edge materials and construction techniques? Were there any unusual site problems that could have slowed construction? What about weather delays?Name some current problems (building defects) with your new house and/or some that you see as possible problems down the road.
*Amy:I think it's probably hard to tell who's good or who isn't some of the time but most of the time I suspect it's pretty clear. We all know if we meet someone whether we trust them or not. We can usually smell the BS if that's what they're doing. So go with your gut and you'll be right most of the time. Everytime I've been screwed by a client (that happens too), It was because I didnt' walk away when something inside me told me to.And you're right BBB, NARI, and the 0thers don't mean much. If you check with my states DCA, you'll see I have a complaint filed against my company. I was screwed by a client who filed the complaint when I threatened to sue. The matter was settled, I was not found to be at fault but there's no finding of "innocent" so the record is still there and I'm an honest, hard working, dependable contractor who puts out a pretty good product. (If I do way so myself).
*Amy,I am currently acting as a construction manager for a client.In finding a GC/Framer/Builder (they are doing most of the work) for her house, I asked around and ended up with about a dozen names. Of these, three or four of them got more than one hit, sort of cross referenced from different trades people.Of these 4 there were only 2 that could talk to me about building this year. The next thing I said was let me see your work. The one guy had foundastions done, they other crews were just finishing framing.I told both of them that was just great with me and that was what I really wanted to see. They were both stunned because they had never had anyone ask to see them framing something, or see foundations!! Their customers always want to see finished houses. You can still learn alot from a finished house, but you need to see their work in progress.The stuff under the drywall is waht is important, but no one wants to see it, and they don't want to spend the money on it, with a few exceptional people here and there.Now the question I ask you is how do you know what you're looking at even if you can see a work in progress. The reality is that 95% of the people don't know good work from bad, unless it is paint or trim work. That is why people hire me, because I do know, I am involved in the house from site selection through performance testing, and I have no vested interest in who you would like to use, or how much the house may cost. I get a fixed fee, I work with you and your plans or architect, I generate my detail drawings and performance specs to supplement the architects or the plans, I inspect the contractors work before he starts your house, and I test your house when he is done.I am a neutral third party, except the two open projects I have now I will also CM at the clients request, which is somewhat of a pain. I preferr the consult/inspect/test route better because I am then left out of alot of the politics.Without finding someone like me in your area you are reliant on the contractors word, or references from previous clients who also have no idea what they are looking at. There are several houses here that I have looked at where the owners are ecstatic and the house is some of the poorest work I have ever seen.Please remember that code compliance plays almost no part in the health, comfort, safety, durability, or energy efficiency of your house. This is because codes are written without prime consideration of physics, and they do not dictate workmanship.Here's a few pointers - if the ridge cut of every rafter is off, and shimmed alternately on the top and bottom of the cut, then the guy is not good.If the sheathing is not square in corners - not good.If the guy stacks up 2x4's instead of using 2x12's - again not good. (See picture)-Rob-Rob
*Rob, is this a header? Is it also a load bearing wall ( guessing from the rafters )? What is the span of this "built up joist"?Nice work!Frank
*Rob, that's a great picture but shouldn't it be in the "Go away DIYs" over in the tavern? Surely that isn't the work of a professional? Joe H
*I really like the comment about this guy's inability to add a column of numbers without overcharging.I worked for a guy that did that regularly -- his comment is that nobody really re-adds a column of numbers on a bill and if he gets caught, he would say he just made a mistake. My boss did it for years and my guess he made an extra 10% per year with that cute little practice. The thing is that he had absolutely no scruples in this regard because he also did it to his sub-contractors and shorted them in the process.He was a very successful businessman but personally I thought he was a creep. I'd say it might be the same guy but I know the guy I worked for has retired to Florida with all his millions.
*Chris I would suggest a good home inspection. This may uncover a few more flaws or it may (with positive feedback) giv you some peace of mind to start putting this behind you.Small claims court might be a good place to settle your finacial problms with this guy, hopefully he will get what he deserves and you can cut your losses and move on. p.s. About the pictures that Joe inclosed.Unfortunately the wealthiest framer in our area is the worst that I have trimmed behind,yet he is never without work and one of the well-known "professionals" many builders go to.Fortunately there are some talented guys around-who pay their taxes and use legal helpers.
*Damn. That's just scary...yup, sad and scary. Nice catch with the pic. Whoever said, "what you don't know won't hurt you", must not have been familiar with the building trades.Later. LJ
*About the scary pic....it's not in the production world. It's not done like that by you or me...but it's plenty strong...ie...I work on old camps around Lake George framed with full dimension 2x4s, double top plate with no header over windows and 2x4 and 2x6 rafters...No sags, no camps collapsed by snow. They do have 12x12 pitch roofs, and the modern homes with engineered truss systems and 5x12 pitch roofs leak in the winter from ice dams and once in awhile even collapse from snow loads...I cannot grade this framer doing production work for $2.00/sqft without seeing the whole picture...I do see that most of us would like to think we would never need to stack four plates....but we weren't there at the time.near the stream,ajNice pic though rob and excellant advice on how to pick a contractor...
*I'm not sure you can't recover consequential damages for breach of contract, SHGLaw.I agree about moving on, but first, I'd:1. File a claim against his bond (in CA, GC's must carry a min. bond of about $7500 you can claim directly with his surety co.)2. Did you say you don't have a written contract? In CA, that's illegal: all GC's doing work (labor and materials) worth over $300 must have a written contract. This just gets him in trouble with the licensing board- but complaints adding up threaten his license. 3. Small claims court, of course.4. Go camping for a week (probably can't afford more than that).Good luck.
*Yes, winter projects can take longer, especially here in Puget Sound. However, we had a very mild winter and several of my builder's subcontractors (including framers, plumber, electrician) decided to take time off IN THE MIDDLE of their work to attend to other projects ON SUNNY DAYS. My point was that there was ample opportunity to complete my house on time! If you're questioning my credibility, you can email me directly and discuss. Incidentally, there are numerous other examples of unprofessional and unethical business practices by my builder that I did NOT mention -- I just presented the tip of the iceberg. Everything in my original post was absolutely true and basically summarizes the words in his and my attorney's letters.
*It is a "beam" that spans about 16 feet accross the front of a porch. My "new" digital can't deal with surfaces that pitch away from it on an angle. I tried to get the shot showing how it was already bowed about 1" accross that length, but the camera just blinked the green light at me.The rafters are about a 4/12 pitch and they span about 10 feet.There was a future feast for ants and termites in the backfill around the house too.I got ill at this house and actually stopped taking pictures when I realized that people were paying MEGA bucks for work of this kind. This was a large custom house in a fancy development in LeRoy, NY.Here's a few more for fun.Luckily, my guys, Miller Brothers Construction, didn't use a shim anywhere in the whole place. You couldn't slide a business card in any of their joints!-Rob
*Rob. I think you're being too hard on this guy. It obvious someone stole all his tools and he's left with only a chain saw to cut his rafters. Joe H
*Now you give the kicker...16'...no posts in that span?near the stream seeing the light Rob,aj
*i In CA, that's illegal: all GC's doing work (labor and i materials) worth over $300 must have a written contract.Since when? Did I miss something? That thing about the $300 cap is about licensing only. An oral contract in not only leagal, but binding.
*Chris, I certainly hope you've read all of these postings attentively. You've recieved an awful lot of really good, lucid advice from a number of terribly knowledgeable people who genuinely want to help you out. I have one thing to add to all of this, take it for what it's worth... At this point, this house is going to pretty much always be a source of heartache for you, even if you do manage to somehow get some sort of financial satisfaction (very doubtful) from the builder. You might want to consider putting the house on the market and starting over with a new and better researched G.C.. I suggest re-reading those posts in here regarding how to shop for a contractor a couple of times, there's some good stuff in there. One other thing to consider. Selling the house might be made a bit more difficult if you broadcast all over town how bad the builder was and how badly you got screwed by him. Something to think about anyway. Good luck buddy, and I sincerely hope this will be your only horrible homebuilding experience. i A P.S. for the rest of you.... I wonder how many people who have had similar experiences have also selected their builder because they were the low bid?
*Not doubting this guy, but I'll never forget the day I got a call from a homeowner that said.....You need to get here right now, I've got a terrible leak and there's a foot of water in my basement. So I rushed over to look and sure enough under his homeowner installed icemaker line was a puddle of water a foot in diameter laying on the floor............
*Actually, I'm not to worried about the present quality of most work that went into the house. I wound up supervising most of the work, visiting the site about 3 times as often as my actual builder (who was too busy enlarging his business, firing half of his office staff, doubling his work force, moving his office, increasing from 3 projects to 8 projects during this time frame). I probably intercepted about 30-40 significant discrepancies (hopefully all of them) and had the builder attend to them ... things like missing squash blocks under I-joists, a truss that didn't span the required length (yet was STILL INSTALLED!!!), Tyvek housewrap not taped, inadequate support and nailing (top and bottom) of I-Joist vaulted ceiling rafters, etc. I was absolutely amazed at how overwhelmingly resistant the subs were to fixing these errors or trying to get away with them! There are a handful of remaining discrepancies (worst one is inadequate or missing exterior trim caulking) which the builder has yet to attend to (4 months after moving in.)I do feel that had I not been there, the house would be very poorly built and possibly a disaster waiting to happen. At this very moment, the only thing that concerns me is the plumbing (standard copper). Nothing leaks now (knock on wood). System passed initial hydrostatic test (after 4 tries). Plumber did very sloppy work and tried to overcharge everything by about 50%. My builder even acknowledged this and fired him (supposedly) from doing any other work for him.
*When all is said and done..... And if indeed all said is true (not implying it isn't) Chris, you just need to..... i get creativeabout taking care of some of your frustration. There's plenty that can be done within the confines of the law to make someone's life miserable. Of course this all needs to be weighed against the toll it will take on you. Is it really worth it? Yep, Puget Sound weather was pretty mild this past winter and sure has been great this summer. Where abouts were you building? Sam
*The leaking copper always amazes me. My first time with copper pipe I was running a large commercial job. I asked the plumber on the job to "fill me in" after 15 minutes I headed to the store and bought the stuff I needed. FOR THE FIRST TIME IN MY LIFE I soldered copper pipe - in my own house and had no leaks (repiped whole house). Then onto othe friends who are also serious DIY's and no leaks. Then renovated my house, cousins house, mothers house, no leaks.Now I admit - I have only installed maybe 1000 or so fittings, but none have leaked.Also - in commercial work most of the guys never have leaks either - except the one job where there was lots of dripping oil in a pit, but that was a mess anyways.This has lead me to believe that if you can't pipe a whole house with 1 leak or less, you do crap work.I say this now because the last few jobs I did were rushed jobs, in awkward positions, with bad light, limited mobility, etc. and I still had no leaks. I don't even use a brush anymore, I use this certain flux that cleans green pipe.Sorry - my rant on piping is concluded.-Rob
*Every story has two sides. I am not agreeing with anyone, but I know how these things can go. I worked on a project last week doing some very specialized work. Not all that tough but something I do everyday. The "engineer " on the job seemed to think it was his place to tell me how to do my trade even though it was obvious from his first sentence that he didn't have the first clue what he was talking about. I was as polite and cordial as I could be but it took all that I had to keep from telling him to find whatever it was that he did and go away and do it. I'm sure he was good at whatever his job was, but it was painfully obvious that he hadn't been anywhere near the real planet in a few decades. Due to his "prescence" the job took me about twice as long as usual. We have all had customers that think we walk on water as well as those that wish we would drown. I feel for you if you got bit by a bad contractor but that can be a relative thing. Some people are not happy no matter what you do while others are great to work with. Without hearing the other side of the story we really have nothing to go on. Not sticking up for the guy,and not trying to offend you,just been on both sides of the issue.I remember many years ago I did a job for the most miserable SOB on the planet. He hated everything I did, as well as the work of everyone on the project. A year or so later I was bidding on a job and the customer asked me if I had done a job for(miserableSOB). I reluctantly said yes. He then gave me the job saying that if I could put up with that guy, then I must be alright. There, I vented. Therapy session over.