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I’ve just rebuilt a redwood deck using the Deckmaster clips. Yes, they do add width to the tops of the joists. However, one of the reasons I used them is so that I could use a wider spacing between the deck boards (1/4″). I think this more than offsets the slightly wider ‘collection surface’ in my case.
I am very pleased with the results, but they take a LOT longer to install than nailing or screwing from the top. You may have more or less difficulty depending on the available clearance, but it does take much more time.
I have not tried any of the other systems, but chose the Deckmasters because I like the positive hold and because it allowed the wider spacing I wanted. I think they will also be less susceptable to problems due to wood shrinkage and warping.
I really like the look and the solid feel. I would be less enthusiastic if I had had to pay someone else to do it. Deckmaster estimates that an experienced carp can install 60 linear feet of decking an hour. I am a weekend warrior and not a pro, but I ain’t that bad, and I felt lucky to hit half that rate what with bringing warped boards into alignment (and even the very good grade I used has noticeable warp in 80-90% of the boards), climbing under and back 2-6 times per board, sliding on my back to get the last few boards with low clearance, etc.
You can see what they have to say for themselves at deckmaster.com.
Replies
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I've just rebuilt a redwood deck using the Deckmaster clips. Yes, they do add width to the tops of the joists. However, one of the reasons I used them is so that I could use a wider spacing between the deck boards (1/4"). I think this more than offsets the slightly wider 'collection surface' in my case.
I am very pleased with the results, but they take a LOT longer to install than nailing or screwing from the top. You may have more or less difficulty depending on the available clearance, but it does take much more time.
I have not tried any of the other systems, but chose the Deckmasters because I like the positive hold and because it allowed the wider spacing I wanted. I think they will also be less susceptable to problems due to wood shrinkage and warping.
I really like the look and the solid feel. I would be less enthusiastic if I had had to pay someone else to do it. Deckmaster estimates that an experienced carp can install 60 linear feet of decking an hour. I am a weekend warrior and not a pro, but I ain't that bad, and I felt lucky to hit half that rate what with bringing warped boards into alignment (and even the very good grade I used has noticeable warp in 80-90% of the boards), climbing under and back 2-6 times per board, sliding on my back to get the last few boards with low clearance, etc.
You can see what they have to say for themselves at deckmaster.com.
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I've used the Simpson clips on several jobs and found them to be fast and strong. They go in quick and from the top, there's no getting under the deck required. I've had extremes of heat and cold for the past five years on one deck now and they're holding fast. They are much more economical than the other systems as well.
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FX
I've used the Deckmaster and the Simpson Deck Board Ties (DBTs). The DBTs tend to trap leaves and debris between the board. I prefer the Deckmaster in that regard- much easier to clean off if you have leaves nearby.
Installation was a toss-up. I found the DBTs to need quite a bit of wrestling to get bowed boards to line up right. Once you get the rear clip under the previous board, it is tough to slide the board around. I do agree that screwing from underneath is a pain in the a$$ - forget about their photos of a guy on his knees casually reaching down with a right angle drill.
I've also installed TREX with the deckmaster system. A very nice system. TREX has no memory or bow, so just lay it, hold it and screw it.
Never used the biscuits, but I'd guess it traps dirt and water, allows for squeaks if not done precisely or just after things shrink, and allows water to get into the interior of the deck boards.
BTW, if you use DBTs on TREX, you will need to screw the ties in...the joist hanger nails will blind you if you try to smack them into TREX by hand. (Can't imagine lining up a pneumatic driver to hit the hole either.)
On a related front, do many folks lay double joists at locations where the deck boards will be butt-spliced? I always double up, with a 2x spacer between, so the splice is out in the air, and water doesn't collect at the end grain.
Adam
*... nice detail with the butt joints, a vulnerable point for rot. Adam, if a client wants Deckmaster, by what factor do you increase your labor estimate? Did you say you screwed the clips to the joists?The Deckmaster install looks good, is I think very good at keeping water out (I also put a dab of construction adhesive under the boards to fill the gap), you can have whatever spacing you like, and provides a strong connection to the joist. No nail pops, no nail or screw holes collecting water. But they are expensive and a PAIN to install. The Trex is very willing, but you do have to be careful that as you are screwing along it doesn't wander off; and I didn't worry about it much, but wondered if the Trex was dimensionally consistent. I started screwing the two ends down first and was able to go much faster.But what a lot of labor. (Said that, didn't I?) Like Adam, I didn't see myself hanging upside down dropping screws and did it from underneath. But there must be an easier way. If you're being paid enough, well fine. And it does look nice, I'm interested to see how it weathers.
*Has anyone chopped the deckmaster strips into 5" lengths so that they can be hidden under the boards? Also, so they don't show in the spaces between the boards, or add width to the joists between the decking to trap additonal dirt and leaves?
*Great, even more work! :)
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I didn't cut the Deckmaster clips except for the extra clip to accomodate butt joints. I did give them a coat of flat black though to keep them from reflecting too obviously.
That's a great idea about doubling the joists for the butt joints. I'm glad I didn't think of it - I've already got way too much time in the thing, and I'm still working on the railing.
*I didn't want to admit to being cheap, but I have used Simpson A-series brackets and/or hardware store type metal corner braces in lieu of the Deckmaster system. The angles were concealed under the deck boards and were much less costly than specialized systems. It went together well and has held up through wind and rain and ice and snow and sun... you get the point? It works.
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FX and andrew;
I estimate at 2.5x more labor for the deckmaster. You can get down to a pretty efficient system with tacking the ends of several boards, then screwing from underneath. Also, a short 3/4" pipe with pony clamps can be indespensible for holding the board down to the joist (you can twist 90 degrees between ends to get the joist and board),
Cutting the deckmaster would be a hugh hassle: I do all the deckmaster for a section, then lay boards. Cutting individual strips you'll be piecing each in exactly. I'm a bit of a perfectionist, but wouldn't consider it.
I do paint the deckmaster with flat black. they disappear pretty much. Regarding water/dirt and rot, use pressure treated doug fir with pcf 0.40%. Heck, compared to the DMs, labor, decking the PT is nothing.....
Adam
*Yeah, I wish tacking the ends had occurred to me sooner! I used 1/4" ply strips as spacers, that sped things up too, and it was obvious from below if things were headed off course. I think if I do it again I might consider toenailing/shooting a few stainless finishing nails through the board while on top to ensure its obedience through to screwing. Faster than a clamp?Do you have a generic number of hours per sf? In other words, how do you arrive at the base labor estimate, assuming a minimum of add-ons?
*AndrewHours per sq ft is kind of like gallons per mile.... (only a concern in an M60 tank)I'd guestimate at 20 sqft/hr. But thats a run rate. Stairs/corners/angles of course slow things up.BTW, I only do specs, no "clients", so the estimates are really "unverified".Adam
*That's even more interesting -- how do you decide to go to the extra trouble of something like blind deck fasteners in a spec home? Is the payoff there for the trouble? (My recent experience is that non-trade people don't notice details unless they're pointed out.)
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I'm searching for opinions/experience on blind decking fasteners. Simpson clips, screw-down plastic biscuits, deckmaster-type "L" shaped metal strips, etc. It seems to me that the metal screwing strips add with to the joists in the spaces between the deck boards, and would add to the buildup of dirt and leaves. It seems the biscuits are really labor intensive.
Anyway, any experience here would be appreciated. Who's used what, and what do you think?