Replies

1. 
   rez | Aug 20, 2005 10:06pm | #1

   Greetings bld,

   This post, in response to your question, will bump the thread through the 'recent discussion' listing again.

   Perhaps it will catch someones attention that can help you with advice.

   Cheers

    

   Spaghetti? The secret is in the sauce!

    

   Hunts with garlic.

   
    

2. 
   EricPaulson | Aug 20, 2005 11:34pm | #2

   That's a tough one. I've done several small projects like that with the water involved creating a bit more of a challenge.

   It was much easier once the water was dropped for the winter.

   I believe you could use some triangulation as in using a builders or surveyors transit.

   Or perhaps you could build a llight weight frame the same size as the proposed pier out of small dimension lumber. Attatch it to the land where desired and then drive the post where you want them.

   Be care full with the float idea too. I tried something like that once and the wood turned out to be a LOT heavier than I thought, it did not float well or stable and was borderline dangerous to handle.

   Eric

   It's Never Too Late To Become

   What You Might Have Been

    

   [email protected]

1. 
   bldrbill | Aug 21, 2005 03:35am | #5

   Thanks Eric--I'll be using PT pine and it does tend to be really heavy.

3. 
   brownbagg | Aug 21, 2005 02:45am | #3

   its alot easier to get a trash pump hook a line to a 1 1/2 inch pvc about ten foot long and jet them down.

1. 
   bldrbill | Aug 21, 2005 03:33am | #4

   Thanks brownbagg.  Any ideas on how to square them up?

4. 
   ProBozo | Aug 21, 2005 05:47am | #6

   i have built a handful of lake/pond piers over the years. I don't mess with pilings anymore. Use floats and concrete anchors. Dock floats are available semi-locally in most areas, cost is reasonable, and the dock can stay fully functional whatever the water levels.

   Look here:

   http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=dock+floats&btnG=Google+Search

5. 
   ChrisB | Aug 21, 2005 06:24am | #7

   I built a pier on a lake front home about ten years ago. I watched others build theirs, and was amazed at how easy it was if you have a sand/silt/mud type bottom to deal with.

   Rent a gasoline driven pump with a ten foot or so  steel rod in front of the flex hose, and get one with a fire hose like high velocity nozzel in front of that.

   Hold your vertical posts where you want them, and fire up the pump, which has the suction hose in the lake. Wash around the posts with the pump discharge, moving it up, down and around the post. Nothing will happen for a few seconds, but in a short while, the post will start sinking into the bottom faster than you ever imagined. Keep the nozzle working around the bottom of the post and it will sink six feet or more in less than two minutes.

   Pull the nozzle out and in ten seconds the posts will be locked like you poured concrete around them. Frickin' amazing.

   I sank posts six feet on center, six- eight feet in the mud, on both sides of a twenty foot long pier in one morning. In the next two years this pier on a fifty acre lake survived two hurricanes and never bugded an inch.

   For vertical posts, go to your phone company and see if they have any shorts they want to get ride of. Also, if you are in a coastal area check out the big marine builders for ten-twelve foot shorts. I got mine for free just for hauling them off the yard.

   Chris

1. 
   Pete | Aug 21, 2005 04:13pm | #8

   good advice on locating posts, thanks.  I have jetted posts before and I agree it is the ticket.

   re: triangulation --I've seen guys anchor a "drilling form" with a couple long lines for stability and ratchet the platform to center.  even though I have about 200 feet of marsh to cross, I think I'll use this technique.

6. 
   ponytl | Aug 21, 2005 05:02pm | #9

   my boat house is 2 story room above and boats below with a 20x10 dock at water level and a 160ft walkway from land to the boathouse  with another water level small 10x15 dock near the shore for jetskis and some small boat docking... plus a few piles here and there for tie'n up...

   most of this was here less the water level docks when i got the place but being 30+ years old i have done alot to it...

   from what i've read  pile are as much about friction as they are about bearing on or hitting anything hard  thats the reason they are driven  vs jetted...  in silt  you really don't want to jet em... you can very easy with a preassure washer and a long 3/8 pipe if you want... I wouldn't... you really need that side friction  in most cases

   here is how i do it... I prefer 4x6 posts  but do use some 4x4  just casue i do this alone on weekends and 4x16 x 16ft get to be fun alone....

   for my 10 x 20 ft lower dock i eyed up where i wanted my first pile and drove it in to the the point it just wasn't drive'n much... i did this very early on very calm water from a 14ft flat btm boat... pontoon might have been better but was too much trouble to get out plus it's too nice to screw up...  my driver is kinda heavy maybe 50-60 lbs... (it's the bottom 28" of an old  8" x 8" sq exxon steel sign post with the 1" thick 12" x12" base still there... i welded loops for handles on each side some old 1 1/4 tube... just position your post slide the 8x8 over the top of your pile and keep slam'n down... helps to have someone on each side but i've done most of mine alone,  i prob lift it maybe 12" and slam down on each blow..not hard to drive 5ft down but when it won't slam /drive down anymore or i'm just tired then i hit it a few more times and it's done.... (i got the sign post/driver free from sign co that had taken 100's down)

   ok... after first pile is driven kinda eye it up and drive your second pile in my case about 19ft away for my 20ft dock...  then i temp nailed a 20ft pt 2x10 between the 2 at the level above the water i wanted... paslode impulse nailer with galv ring shank nails...  then came back and  drilled and bolted with 1/2"  galv bolts and big washers...  with this one board and 2 posts up... you can now square up your dock... I used 4x6 piles on the corners that extended about 40" above the dock for rails or just something to hang onto or tie up to....for all the other piles i used 4x4 and they were shorter and driven to or cut off just below the finished deck height... after the first 2 corners i then drove two of these "field" 4x4 piles just kinda where i figured they should be... and  framed to them give'n me a platform to work off of and get me out of the water and off the boat... as i'd frame with ends of the frame'n hand'n off into space i'd then drive a pile next to that framing and drive a few nails then bolt it up... i had an air impact driver (200ft of hose to the compressor) to tight'n the  bolts and a 4way lug wrench that worked well with the 3/4 nuts... took me a full day to build the 10x20ft dock (16hrs) decked it with 2x10 pt southern yellow pine... added an above ground pool ladder i found on the side of the road and it has become the swim/hangout/ski drop off... dock for everyone... has all but taken the place of the pontoon boat...

   p

7. 
   Dinosaur | Aug 21, 2005 09:04pm | #10

   There's no difference in squaring up the frame for your pier than in squaring up the frame for a new building. You need a fixed reference point to start with, some string, a few stakes, and a tape measure.

   You haven't filled in your profile, so I don't know where you're located. How to install your pilings depends a lot on ice conditions. I do not drive (or jet) pilings, because the result is the ice lift at spring melt will then rip the joists and beams right off the pilings, instead of lifting the entire structure off the bottom and then dropping it back down again. But you have to remember, the ice on the lakes up here gets to 3 or 4 feet thick in a normal year.

   The basic procedure is to install your anchors on the shore and drive pickets at each one. Then wade out (or use a boat, if it's deep) with a tape measure and when you get to where you want to be, note the length, adjust as desired or needed, and drive a picket into the bottom. Depending on the consistence of the bottom, rebar or 1x serve as pickets. If the bottom is really soft, you may have to brace the picket so it won't lean over when you haul the stringline tight.

   Now you've got two corners of your dock sited and one long side strung. You should be able to site the rest of your pilings from those references. Do it just the same way you would on dry land.

   The only real difference is you won't know what length to cut the pilings until after they are sited. If you drive or jet them, you'll have to cut them with a chain-saw once they are down. But if you use my method of floating them on a mud plate (a 24x24 reinforced concrete tile),  drop the plate to the bottom, dive on it and wiggle/shim/dig it as level as possible, then set the piling on it. Once I've got the piling exactly on center and plumb I mark the water level then float it back to shore where it's cut to length using the waterline as the reference point. The mortises for the beams are cut into it at the same time, then it's floated back out and braced in place with 1x.

   I hang a couple of concrete blocks on 20d nails on the bottom of the pilings to help keep them down while I'm getting the beams nailed into the mortises. Once that's done, the structure is usually heavy enough to sit in place.

   Air tools are the way to go for this kind of building. You can use a framing nailer under water to tack on your cross-bracing quickly, and then go back with a pneumatic drill and an impact driver to run in the lag screws. When you're finished for the day, dry out the air tools well, and run a lot of oil through them. Partial disassembly might be necessary for some tools. You'll know they're okay to store when you get dry exhaust air out of them.

   Use bigger lags than you think necessary; it's amazing how much power ice has to bust things. I now use 7/16" lags as a minimum, and 5/8 hilti anchors to tie into the rock or concrete shore anchor.

   I do not recommend you use 4x4's for your pilings; 6x6 is the minimum. If your pilings are longer than 8-10 feet, go to 8x8. Cedar is the preferred material; hemlock is a very good second choice.

   Do not use PT lumber of any kind in the lake! This is very important. The poison in the wood will leech out into your drinking/swimming water. PT chemicals are generally metallic salts and do not biodegrade easily. Some are heavy metals that persist for 10's of thousands of years. This kind of crap won't do the fish any good, or you or your kids, either. In many municipalities (any that have got their head screwed on straight) it is illegal.

   Dinosaur

   A day may come when the courage of men fails,when we forsake our friends and break all bonds of fellowship...

   

   But it is not this day.

1. 
   bldrbill | Aug 22, 2005 02:34am | #11

   Thanks to all for the great words of wisdom and advice.  I'm always amazed at the breadth of knowledge available on this site!