*
To expand on Bill Smith’s comment. If you–god forbid–had a fire or an accident in the house, and it was determined to have happened in an area where work was done that wasn’t covered by a permit, your insurance company could weasel out of paying you on the basis that the accident was caused by illegal or uninspected or unauthorized construction. Whatever the phrasing they’d use, it does leave you vulnerable. In addition to checking w/ the local gvt, maybe also check w/ your ins agent.
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But how about an example of the type of work a better-than-average (if I say so myself) DIYer does.
Good-size bedroom with one recessed can in the middle. From the attic I tapped into the box, extended the wiring to add three more recessed cans, replaced the original to match the new ones.
Or building a half-high partition wall and extending electric into it by tapping in (at the boxes) to the service in the adjoining walls.
Would you have gotten a permit for these?
Technically, I think I probably should have pulled one here, but I see a lot of weekend warriors coming out of Home Depot with miles of 14-2 romex and other stuff they probably aren't licensed to install.
Carlos
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Keith...years ago. we had that happen...word was passed on to the town board and the guy was replaced before the next inspection!...I even heard that another builder got away with tossing the guy out a doorway to terra firma...He lost his job because being a prick isn't part of the job description.
near the stream having thoughts of being lucky on that one!
aj
Small town living with $20 permit fees...and a bunch of nice guys and gals.
*A "blues" Fest....near the new barn...Sounds great doesn't it!near the stream,ajnice barn...
*Carlos: In most areas, you don't have to be licensed to work on your on home. Only if work on someone else's. You're right that hardly any homeowners obtain permits. You didn't and I wouldn't when working on a small project in my own house. But you're supposed to. A theme emerging in this thread is that people are more likely to obtain permits when the costs is reasonable, the turn-around time short, and the inspectors civil. Also seems to be a correlation between small towns and user-friendly building departments. -David
*You need a permit in my area (SoCal) whenever: (1) The dollar amount of the work exceeds $500; or (2) Roof; (3) Structure; (4) Electrical or plumbing: or (5) Whenever the Building Inspector says to.Here there is no hard and fast rule. Plumbing is really important, as you can not add a bath without pulling one. When you'd go to sell the home, it would have 3 baths, but the assessor information would only show 2. Bootleg bath. Buyer would probably call the zoning police and have you tear it out. Ouch!!
*That's funny G.LaLonde! You guys actually have me so worried bout my transmission that I actually tried to have the filters and fluids replaced. The local yokel cracked the ait conditioning seal instead of the transmission line and sent half my air conditioning jizz a-steaming all over the place. After he wrapped a mile and half of electrical tape around the joint, I asked him how things were going.I still haven't found the time to get the thing into the dealer to be re-charged...and I gave up on the fluid change, at least for now...I did have enough sense to take it out of overdrive when I hauled the backhoe up north. The Zilwaukee Bridge was a challenge and there was one hill in Vassar that really challenged "Big Red". I had the thing floored and it only crept up that hill at about 10 miles per hour tops! It didn't redline, but came close. I was in 2 wd with the od off.Any transmission experts know if I would have better success dropping the thing into 4wd low?blue
*Thanks Aj. I love my barn, but think a Blues fest would be better off up at the Huron house if I ever get it done. The Huron house is a few hundred yards north of the AuSable River and is located in a very popular Mi resort town with tons of cabins on the lake. I finally took a dip in the lake this past tuesday (it takes a long time for Lake Huron to warm up) and it was awesome. Pure sugar sand as far out as I could walk (about a hundred yards).Heres a MPG I took of the neighboring marina and the Ausable Pier (famous for the steelhead an salmon runs). I don't know if this site will take an MPG, but I'll take this opportunity and try.But...come to think of it, the barn will sleep a hundred or so (the upstairs is rustic), and it would be a beautiful sound hearing all those snorers singing in unison...blue Ps no mpg attachment...it didn't work.
*I pull permits on any work for others about which there might be any liability question anywhere down the line, particularily at the next transfer of title. The alternative is to put my customer in a very awkward position re: disclosure, etc. I even get permits on my own place when I figure I can use the backup of a second opinion. Most of the inspectors here have value to contribute, if I treat them that way. The occasional idiot, of course. I sound pretty stuffy...
*Permit? Do I need a permit for my new house? Geesh, it's always something!
*
Here in Michigan, the state law is that any work in excess of $600 in value (labor & materials) requires a permit. However, since the inspectors work for their local counties or cities, the application of this law varies a great deal.
I recently contacted a building inspector in rural northern Michigan and told him that I wanted to build a small cabin on ten acres of property that is in the middle of nowhere. I was contacting him to find out what he would require.
He told me that a cabin would have to be a minimum of 1000 sq fs.and have a well and septic. However if I built a "STORAGE BUILDING" (wink wink) That there no such requirements.
When I asked him if I could build an outhouse, he said that they were not allowed, but if I built a "ONE HOLE TOOL SHED", he would not give me any trouble.
I guess what I am saying, is that in order to have a good working relationship with inspectors, You need to talk to them and find out what they expect from you. Some inspectors are unreasonable at times, but once you show a willingness to work with them, my experience is that the will ease up a bit.
*
Blue, Not trying to give you a hard time....Just curious. We've had BAD luck with Dodge transmissions and Chrysler's refusal to recognize the problem and fix it. It seems to me that at least 10% of Dodge pickups have the tranny go out, but the heavy duty diesel jobs like yours work forever. Different tranny or BS luck ....I don't know! Still running my informal survey. I know guys who plow miles and miles of logging roads with trucks like yours and never have trouble and then other people have 5000 miles and can't pull away from a stop sign cause the tranny is shot. Go figure!! Good luck with yours.
*Jeff,You got a lot of good answers so I'll be brief ....You need a permit WHENEVER THE LAW REQUIRES IT. Period.As for the age of the house and the previous work done: Substantial changes may require you to bring CERTAIN areas up to the current code, but work done previously only needs to adhere to the code in effect AT THE TIME THAT PARTICULAR WORK WAS DONE.I have done work on old houses in the San Diego area which are framed in what we call "Single Wall" construction. Single Wall as a framing technique has been illegal since 1927 - but the Building Dept. doesn't require us to tear them down or reinforce them or anything else.In fact, for designated historic sites, I have been required to repair and/or add USING THE ORIGINAL construction techniques, even though they would be otherwise illegal in another structure.yours,George
*Jeff, many of today's home sales involve (or require) a "disclosure" statement, which often encludes a question like, "has any work been done on the residence which required a building permit?" I don't think it would be wise to fib on a disclosure statement, so there's one tip.In this state, the nature of work which requires a permit is spelled out by state law. Localities may have additional requirements. Historic preservation districts add complications beyond building code compliance. Your local building official should be able to clarify the need for permits. In most locations, a homeowner can pull a permit, often with less difficulty and more flexibility than a contractor. The DIYer who obtains a necessary permit and passes the required inspections has some bragging rights at the neighborhood barbeque, too.As a licensed contractor, I am REQUIRED to pull a permit for most remodeling work. I can't obtain the permit without having a valid contractor's license. It kind of goes around in circles... I pull the general contractor's permit, but my electrical, plumbing and HVAC work have to be done under separate permits by sub-contractors who, in turn, cannot pull the accessory permits without licenses in THEIR fields. Recognize that although I hold the basic permit for the job, I am not permited to do, say, the plumbing, because I don't hold a license in that classification.Time spent waiting for permit approvals? Time spent waiting for inspectors? Permit fees? Sure, but around here that's what separates the pros from... well, from the others. Occasionally, a prospective client will gulp when I mention that a permit will be required for the work they wish to have done (usually because they don't want any tax re-assessment). I explain that I cannot/will not do the work without a permit, and if they wish to find another "contractor" who will do the job sub-rosa, that's their choice. I don't know that I've ever lost a job because of my ethical posture.I'm a homeowner, too, and as such a DIYer... I pulled permits for my screen porch, greenhouse and wood-burning stove. Given all the potential fire risks with a wood-burning stove, I can only imagine how my insurance company might react if I had a fire and there had been no permit and inspection. I also obtained a permit and did my own electrical work on the screen porch, which I could not have done on one of my "real" jobs.Locally, our permit process is pretty rigorous, and the inspectors are firm but fair. That said, I've found the code compliance staffs are doing their best to see that work is done well, and I've never seen them use their positions to drag out the permit process or make life miserable for this contractor.My limited observaions indicate that these folks bend over backwards to help homeowners who apply for permits to do their own work.So I'm not particularly troubled by the permit/inspection process... It is part of doing business in the business field I've chosen.Compliantly, Steve
*JeffAs you can tell, it depends on your location, type of work that is going to be done, your local building department, etc. I think the big reason why they want us to pull a permit every time we get out the hammer & nails is for the MONEY. In most locals, you local tax assessor's office can only afford to send their "qualified" assessors to look at every house, outbuilding, improvements, etc. about every 5 years. They then up your property taxes appropriately. With permits pulled, they then can send an assessor out before the 5 years. This way, they don't lose up to 4 years worth of revenue.Vince
*
Dear Jeff,
I'm intrigued by your answers thus far. I have lived in my 1830's New Englander for over 10 years and have added a deck, a bathroom, run all kinds of new electric circuits all over the house and to my workshop in the barn(I even converted my table saw over to 22o...zing!) and have never pulled a permit.I hired pros to teach me and to inspect my work, and I read a lot. I don't work in the trades. I'm in my mid 40;s and have no plans to move so I don;t think I'll have any of the disclosure problems mentioned above, but I have never had any problems from my city officials.
My question is: has anyone ever heard of horror stories of bathrooms(for instance) having to be ripped out because of the homeowner not having a permit?
*
In Toronto, construction on a large apartment building was halted after the shell was up; it sat empty for years, clearly visible from the Parkway and affectionately known as the 'white ghost'. It was finally torn down a couple of years back. All because they never had their permit approved. Sometimes permits can be post approved for small improvements, but not always.
*George --What is "single wall" framing? What requirements were added in 1927? I have a 1926 house, and there are strange things about how it was framed, at least by today's standards. For instance, a door may have a king stud but no trimmer on one side, and a trimmer but no king on the other (the header extends farther, to the next king stud on the same sequence of 16" centers as the part of the wall on the other side of the door). The other thing is that they left wild ends of planking and stuff sticking into the attic. I suppose that's because 1926 was before there were skill saws, and it wasn't worth anybody's time and effort to cut them off by hand.-- J.S.
*RESPONSE TO POST # 38Dear John Sprung,Single Wall is something akin to balloon framing except done w/ boards tightly butted together edge to edge, generally full dimension 1 x 12, and few if any studs as we know them today. Stem-wall foundation (stone and/or concrete); pier and post and maybe up to 8 x 8 girders. 1 x 12s nailed plumb directly along the edge of the sill or face of the girder - under the floor or even on up into an attic space (if there is one), you’ll see the ends running wild at random lengths. What the heck – they’re hidden and would have otherwise had to be hand sawn, like you said. I think it’s kind of cool.Corner posts are often 4 x 4s ripped diagonally into a triangle shape. Floor joists hung off a 2 x ledger that runs the perimeter; go up the wall 7 or so feet and attach another 2 x ledger (though I have seen it done in 1 x), and then run your ceiling joists or floor joists for the upper floor off of that. Or better still, a continuous header of 2 x 12 over all windows and doors along the length of a wall, and the same header acts as a ledger for the ceiling or 2nd story floor joists. Bitchin’, huh?The outside of the wall is one side of the board, and the inside of the wall is just the other side of the same board. Hence, “single wall”.Exterior walls, though, are generally furred out and lathed and stucco plastered or sided w/ some type of lap or shingle siding if they are still being lived in today. All interior walls are exactly 1 inch thick. Cowboy construction. Building materials in southern Calif. and much of the West was mighty scarce in those days. To follow the evolution of it further, look for information on the work of architect Irving Gill in his smaller residential construction. 1 x 4s turned flat and standing up vertical on 16 inch centers. 1 x 4 running along the floor perpendicular to this 1 x framing; same at the top of the wall and then vertically at all door jambs (horizontal for headers) and again vertically at all corners.Now picture this (if I didn’t already lose you) – this 1 x 4 base, crown, casing, and corner trim nailed to the framing is also the plaster grounds – so the plaster surface sits flush w/ the face of these 1 x 4 “trims” and the field is over lath nailed to the framing 1 x 4s – for a total wall thickness of 3 inches. All door and window openings framed 3) 1 x 4s thick. Exterior walls, bearing walls – all pretty much the same everywhere. Real economy of materials.And they’ve stood up, though by code they probably shouldn’t (S).I’m currently working on a place in “Old Town” San Diego, the oldest part of the house was framed up in 1864 – it follows a more “modern” style of balloon framing using (full size) 2 x 4s @ 16 inch centers– so I know the techniques and engineering were known. The real killer there was the roof – 2 x 4 rafters @ 36”. When you walked on that roof it was like walking on springs! I braced the gable walls and then tore the roof off (several rafters like paper from the termites) and re-framed it, following the same pitch and profile, w/ 2 x 8s @ 24” and lotsa Simpson hardware. Left the old rafter tails running to the outside to maintain the original look.But I'm off the topic. I think the thing with single wall and its derivatives was that it was merely an attempt to value-engineer the construction, make it strong enough yet cheaper through less building materials. Oh – and 1927? That’s the year the Uniform Building Code was first published and the city of San Diego adopted it. I guess single wall and Mr. Gill’s designs didn’t pass muster w/ that crowd. (Yes, people are still livin’ in ‘em ….).yours,Geo. Lentulo
*I love the permit and inspection process, it's so dependable. We just pulled out a 6' wide window to replace it with a 6' wide double door, and what did we find? No header. None. Zip. A piece of 2x4, laid flat, to define the top of the opening. The house was built in 1969, well after codes were published. This was completely unexpected, since the attic is well-framed (and all we could see when we bought the place).
*Amy,Yeah - that's kinda wierd @ an exterior wall, I guess. Is it a bearing wall, or a gable end, or side wall under a shed roof, or ??? Even so, one 2x laid flat over 6' sounds kind of stretching it ...I'm trying to think like the carpenter that installed it ... was this a wood window? Was the 6' span broken up by strong jambs and mullions which were in turn carried below by something more substantial - like cripples @ 16" centers? Just trying to find some logic there .... Another side-note: As you are probably aware already, there are places even today that still do not require permits. Although San Diego adopted the UBC in 1929, deciding which types of construction were legally allowable, (I know, I said '27 in the post above) - anyway, it wasn't until, I believe, 1973 that San Diego began requiring a building permit w/ mandatory inspections. And that was a full 2 years after the devastating Sylmar quake some 150 odd miles to the north of here.More of an art than a science, I'd say ....Geo. Lentulo
*This is a bearing wall. It is a basement window, close to the top of the foundation, so I guess the carpenter figured the concrete on sides and bottom was fine. What I see is a 6 foot span of my house sitting on 2" of lumber, that was supported by 1/2" trimmers. The only thing above it was a sill plate, then joists supported on that, so nothing that could be mistaken for a header. The window itself was a cheap aluminum slider. The amazing thing to me is that it worked - there was no distortion and the window opened and closed easily. When we are done this project, I'll have to go check the other one (also a 6' span) and see how it is faring. My budget is busted right now - I can't afford to cut the concrete below to enlarge the space and make room for a header, which would take up almost half the window height-wise. Maybe in spring...
*There wasn't a band sill same depth as joists?
*Amy, when we install basememt windows, and doorwalls, we ofter frame the header in the floor system. If you tore out our window thirty years from now and looked, you'd only see a 2x4 on the flat, but that doesn't mean the opening isn't properly carried.blue
*George --Thanks for the detailed explanation. It's very interesting, and it makes me all the more grateful that my one year before the building code house isn't any worse that it is. ;-)-- J.S.
*
I know legally I am suppose to get a permit to do everything and anything. As a DIY restoring/remodeling a old (1909) house, updating many PO’s past sins and adding a few things here and there. My question is, when do I
b really
need to get a permit. No lawyers please.
*Jeff. The bset qualified person and perhaps the only person who can give you the correct answer is your local Code Enforcement Officer or building inspector. Not everything you'll be doing requires a building permit. But each town or city differs in what does and does not require a permit. Ordinary repairs usually do not rewquire a permit, but how does you town/city define ordinary repairs? Hope this helps.GeneL.
*Jeff, most jurisdictions have a minimum regarding the work you can do at home without a permit. Go outside this minimim and they can have you dismantle all your work at your cost and fine to boot. Talk to your local building official and ask him if your specific work you want to do requires a permit.Is it worth the risk to save a few bucks?Gabe
*Jeff-Gabe on the money. It really can vary by area. I work in the PA/DE/MD area. It's amazing the difference crossing over the line can make.At least learn how close to the edge your getting
*Jeff,No permit can also cause problems with your homeowner's insurance. What have you done so far? Are you afraid of an inspection that will uncover prior work?Bill
*Here in SE Texas, the code and permit requirements vary city by city. MOST require a permit for ANY work over $100. It doesn't matter what work is being done, they want you to have a permit. They really just want the permit money for small things, but it is still required, and can get you into trouble if you ignore it. 9 times out of 10 the inspectors will not come out to your home to do any actual inspections. The cities just require the permits.near the ditch...James "Life is Hard, But I'm Loving It" DuHamel
*It's not the fees that keep people from getting permits but the hassle. The levels of complexity to get a permit and jump through all the hoops that are raised by people afraid of getting sued grows every day.Even small jobs are being required to have fairly complex technical drawings, absurd lengths of time to wait and the whole time your often dealing with grumpy (or worse) beaurocrats. Just thinking of the whole process really kills the Saturday morning two cups of coffee ambition and takes A LOT out of the quality of life of being a home owner.Now, on this web site most people have seen things that DIYs have done that have made their hair stand on end (and near criminal acts by contractors shaving corners) and they'll tend to recommend a professional approach. Further, things get more complicated because, unlike prior generations, nobody seems to live in one house for more than a few years any more and they don't worry so much about the long term effects of their work.A county near me has a successful "Wednesday Express" program at the building dept. You show up with your drawings, meet a plan checker at the counter, make red-line corrections on the spot, pay your fee and start building the minute you get home. Let's hope to see a lot more of that in the future. You get better construction, more fees for the county, less time wasted and you don't turn good citizens into criminals just because they don't want to get caught in a senseless grind at town hall.
*To expand on Bill Smith's comment. If you--god forbid--had a fire or an accident in the house, and it was determined to have happened in an area where work was done that wasn't covered by a permit, your insurance company could weasel out of paying you on the basis that the accident was caused by illegal or uninspected or unauthorized construction. Whatever the phrasing they'd use, it does leave you vulnerable. In addition to checking w/ the local gvt, maybe also check w/ your ins agent.
*Here in Western Washington a pretty good rule of thumb is "anything deeper than paint", at least in the two counties I usually work in.
*Just to answer the question you asked, it's when you don't get caught. If there's nothing documenting existing conditions, nothing that can be seen from the street by the building inspector, your nosy neighbors or the guy who hates your guts. Nothing that can be found after the fire for the adjuster to blame it on. Nothing that's going to red flag the attorney for the nice young couple you plan to sell to someday. What can you get away with? Everything or nothing. It's done all the time, for a variety of reasons, and mostly homeowners get away with it. But when they don't, and according to where you live, what you are actually doing and how kind your local building inspector is, the results of getting caught can be huge. On the other hand, if you talk fast and have little regard for honesty, it's amazing what some people can do. By the way, biggest tell-tale sign is the dumpster or pile of studs sitting outside. Last thought, a lot of what gets done inside doesn't actually need a permit and can lawfully be done by homeowners without consequence. If you are doing a lot, find out what's what. Who knows, maybe you won't be a miscreant after all.And all this from an attorney!SHG
*I don't build houses, or additions; if I'm involved in them it's as a secondary trade, and I'm out of the permit loop. But a lot of kitchens for me (and I don't do all that many a year anyway), are basically new cabs with relatively minor electrical and plumbing stuff; most of these guys are 'retail' contractors like me, not subs of mine, and they deal directly with the homeowner on the business stuff. I also have a clause in my contract that says permits and conformance to local bylaws are the homeowners responsibility. So...I have no idea how often permits are or aren't pulled by the homeowners. I've never pulled one on their behalf, and it doesn't really come up much.My opinion (and yeah I'm one of the people in favour of more licensing for trades), is that a permit should come into play if there is structural changes, or substantial work done in the regulated areas (plumbing and electrical only). The rest is just a tax grab. Anyway, that's the rule of thumb most carpenters I know use; structural=permit, otherwise...
*here in RI.. we're required for roofing and siding.. and all structural.. any change of egresswhen in doubt .. a good policy is to ask..one of the relationships you want to build is with the building inspector..and hsi brtoher/sister inspectors in the other towns.. they do talk to eac other, you know.. never hurts to have a character reference..and , you'd be surprised how many people the building inspector talks to in the course of a week..when your name comes up.. what does he do.. or say ?maybe he just rolls his eyes.. or maybe he says ..""i'd use him on my house""build up a big account of trust.. that you can draw on in the future...
*A few years ago, I was putting an addition on my father's home in upstate PA. We contacted the local building official and asked what we should do. His answer? "Be careful"Can't beat that country living. Of course you gotta be careful when buying someone else's "carefully" constructed home.
*SHGLaw covered most of my thoughts and actually addressed your question. I would re-emphasize his points that getting caught is a function of an obvious worksite (dumpsters, piles of 2x4's, illuminated demo'd rooms in the early evenings), and bad relations with your neighbors. I would add that an active jobsite on your street or that the inspector drives to along your street ups the risk.And if you get caught? You get red-tagged, have to get a permit retro-actively (and defintely with a loss of goodwill with the building department), and maybe a fine. Rather than worry about a house fire and (the remote) possible hassles with the insurance company, I'd worry about doing it right. Be especially careful about tying into that 90-year-old wiring. The romex you will run is fine, but those old wires are oxidized on the outside and brittle. I clean them up with some emery paper and handle them gently. It sounds like you are aware of some older hack jobs and plan to make it a better, safer house than it is now.When I remodelled my 1910 house in Seattle (total kitchen redo, some structural) a building permit would have run about $1,000 and taken at least 3 months! Plus I'd have to be home during the day to meet the inspector numerous times instead at work earning a paycheck. I didn't bother. For a house: $3,000 and 9 to 18 months to approve. I've been hit up for bribes in San Francisco and; doing toxic waste site clean-up, encountered a lot of inspectors who couldn't admit when they didn't understand the project.In Kenai, Alaska, I've been very happy and amazed at how well the building permitting and inspection process goes. We paid our $355 fee, got our house plans (sketches, really) approved in a day, and could always get a convenient inspection appointment. My questions were answered politely, the inspector was always helpful in exploring options with me. And I have a house any bank will loan on. Ask locally, maybe the permitting process will actually add value and peace of mind to your project, like mine in Alaska. Probably not, but ask. -David
*Jeff, you're getting a lot of good, conflicting advice, so I'll give you my take.First, know that I think along Libertarian lines.Most structural changes will require a permit, providiing your locality has a building dept. If you inquire about permit needs, and the inspectors are vague aor grumpy, then the entire process will probably be an ordeal. If they are polite and helpful, it might not be too bad.I've got one for my never ending barn project, and won't get one for any interior projects. If someone wants to enter to inspect my house, they better bring a search warrant.blue
*You don't need no stinkin' permits. I never get them, all they do is cost you more money and make a bunch of damn inspector types nose around your work, and totally foul up your schedule. And they always find nit-picky little problems.Put up those red tags for everybody to stop work. I wish we could use the whole bunch of them for backfill. Keith C
*Nice looking barn, Blue! Had to replace the transmission in your Dodge yet????
*no good... keith.. contrary to popular opinion.. they're organic material.. and they just rot away..next thing you know , you gotta disatisfied customer wants you to come fill in the depressions...sheesh.. some a you guys don't no nuttin ....
*Ohh , that's right, organics.....so could we run them through a shredder, then use them to fill the cores in the block? I'm having some difficulty with one working in a new county for the first time, can you tell? Keith
*Then you should know Keith, don't get on the wrong side of the guy. They've got memories better than elephants.
*Yeahh I know... but my problems are from an inspector that used to be a mason, now he is all over my masons, which is making my job hell. On the first insp. he failed the forming of the footers for no grade stakes. This footer has 14 steps in it(diff elevations) and was formed with 2x10's. We usually shoot the grades in with a laser as we pour. The lead mason met the guy at his office the next morning, and went over the desk at him.(the lead is 70 yrs old , and could easily have taken this 50 yr. old inspector) He is now failing me for no durawall between the brick band and the 4" behind it(2 courses), I have durawall ever 16" over the rest of the house where the brick goes to the roof, but he is pushing for tear down on the rest....dick