Replies

1. 
   clwebb | Oct 01, 2002 01:09am | #1

   Frameboss

   You might check at some of the office stores. There are some surprisingly good programs there not pro level, but good for simple to medium complexity drawings. Some might work for you for under a hundred dollars.

   For something like autocad youre talking, in my area, about 400, -800 dollars for a striped down version of the program. If you are a student you might get a student version for about 400. But the better the program the more technical it can be to use when it comes to setting up drawings and scale and such. (One thing about computer aided drafting is that it can be frustratingly slow when you learn to do it. Where computers give drafters the advantage is in archiving sets of plans- cdroms take up alot less space than full sets of plans on paper, in editing and making changes to drawings, and when enough experience is gained, speed of drafting plans.)That is important when it comes time to print out the drawing for the client. I know auotocad well, but I don't know a whole lot about programs like datacad and some of the ones advertised in FHB.

   If you want to get into drafting on the computer, you might consider taking a six week course at a vo-tech school. I took one and got a 'borrowed' copy of one of the most common drafting programs out there from a guy in the class. Which really helped me in college.

   Hope this info helps.

   Chris

1. 
   bchanson | Oct 01, 2002 06:33am | #2

   I, also, am looking into CAD programs and for any firsthand advice. A couple of years ago, I tried one of the box store "home design suites" which, while not a CAD program, was worthless. A friend who is in an architect program said the program they use (auto cad, i think) is better in 2D than in 3D. I would like something that I could draw a floor plan with, transform it to 3D and then be able to easily move doors, windows, cabinets, rooflines, etc. so that clients could see a couple of things on paper since they are often not really good at imagining things in 3D. I am a remodeller/carpenter so I do not want to spend all of my time drawing but I would be willing to put in the time to learn a program. Searching on the web i have found Auto CAD, Turbo CAD, Auto CAD architect desk and some others all in price from $100.00 to $3,000.00. Thanks in advance for any advice.

   Brad

1. 
   PaulCoffin | Oct 01, 2002 06:48am | #3

   There are 2 profesional CAD magazines that have websites, Cadalyst and Cadence.  One did an article a year or so ago on the cheaper alternatives to Autocad.  Some had 3D capability and sounded quite impressive for $300 or so.  I throw out my old magazines, so don't have the article.  The websites might also have forums where you could ask the same question. 

   Paul

1. 
   mosseater | Oct 01, 2002 08:35am | #4

   Last year I downloaded TurboCad from IMSI`s web site but couldn`t figure out how to use it. There wasn`t much help to figure it out and manuals are like hens teeth. At a local Ollie`s bargain outlet they had Floorplan Plus 3D on sale for $4.00! I figured since it was the same company that maybe the book would help me figure out TurboCad. I`ve been using the $4.00 program ever since! It isn`t high quality and you`re pretty limited in what you can do but I`ve done a lot with it and saved a bunch of time and paper. It`s pretty easy to use and can`t beat the price. I`m sure the high dollar programs are very intuitive, never tried one.

1. 
   CloudHidden | Oct 01, 2002 04:35pm | #6

   >I`m sure the high dollar programs are very intuitive, never tried one.

   Just the opposite!!!!!! Next to programming languages, CAD is the most difficult software there is. Any package I've seen with any significant flexibility is a real bitch to learn--figure hundreds of hours and a lot of cursing till you think that maybe one day far out in the future you'll feel comfortable. And none of the packages I've seen are anything like any others! If you've used one word processor, you can pick up another and be immediately productive. Not so with the high-end CAD. Pick up another, and you feel like someone took your brain out of your head, wrung the juice out of it, and put it back in sideways.

   I've heard that some of the low-end CAD can provide a quick start. At least with the stuff I design, I've found the low-end CAD to be one of the best ways to justify my prices and services. People get something cheap, figuring they'll design it themselves. They spend a few frustrating weeks trying to make it do ANYTHING. Then they ask, "does it do curved walls?", and give up. A dollar for every time that's happened, and I could buy Floorplan Plus 3D at Ollies! <G>

   Curious about something. I wonder if architects/designers feel about DIY designers the way some of the builders here feel about DIY builders? "Have hammer, will build" sounds comparable to "Have CAD, will design." I get to see a lot of hand-drawn or CAD-drawn dome plans, and the mistakes and ommisions are rampant--curves that won't work, windows that won't fit, f/p cut in where there needs to be uninterrupted rebar, and so on. Sometimes they see where they're headed and hire someone to do the plans, and sometimes they don't and then run into a brick wall during construction. Hmmmm....never really thought about that before.

2. 
   Adrian | Oct 01, 2002 05:45pm | #7

   Re: CAD in general, and the learning curve: I just started with a new crew here in September, at the college. I'm teaching, among other courses, intro to technical drawing and Autocad....that's important, because if you know how to draft, and just want to draft with CAD that's one situation, but if you don't know either, obviously the learning curve is steeper.Most of these guys are starting from scratch with both.

   I think we've done five classes now (ten hours, plus whatever they are putting into it outside class). 60% are flying; the rest still have a lightbulb waiting to come on as far as some basic concepts go, but they are drawing (and not everyone was at all comfortable with computers to begin with). They all know the basics of file management, layer management, views and zoom commands, coordinate systems, snaps and grids, and a good bit about how to customise the program or choose between options. They can all draw orthographic projections, and draw isometrically....they have seen some 3d stuff, and we'll move into that soon.

   My point is, it can come pretty quickly (much more quickly, I think, if you take a class than if you try and figure it out yourself), but some people definitely take to it quicker thanothers. You have to put the time in, to make the commands second nature. I believe it's worth it. 2D is fine for many applications; if you can manage 3d, that's really beneficial, but not essential for construction.cabinetmaker/college instructor. Cape Breton, N.S

2. 
   booch | Oct 01, 2002 03:25pm | #5

   You wrote:  I do not want to spend all of my time drawing but I would be willing to put in the time to learn a program.

   Cad of any sort is a commitment of time. It is not "windows" like as the commands are not really close to what you use in other programs. The terms are strange and hard to comprehend. Learning to drive it takes 40 to 80 hours in AutoCAD LT for 400 bucks for the program. That is the coin of the realm program. I own 3 fly by night programs that always lack depth.

   Three D is finish carpentry to a framer. The commands and coordination are time consuming. Each view is a drawing that needs to be scaled to fit. Plus thaT IS A 1500 DOLLAR aUTOcad PROGRAM.

   Put in estimators terms. a standard "D" size drawing is a 4 to 8 hour experience. Unless you are making money on the design I'd steer clear of that. Sketch it on vellum and give the homeowner a copy to mark up. It will take 1/4 of the time aND you can do it in the coffee shop.

3. 
   xMikeSmith | Oct 01, 2002 09:55pm | #10

   We've been doing our own designs since '72... around '85 we tried AutoCad but realized it involved a learnig and proficiency curve that we didn't have time to devote to.

   In '96 we started shopping again and looked at Softplan, Vectorworks and Chief Architect... we chose Chief, Version 5.. now we're up to Version 8...and we're running two staions plus another license at home..

   here's a 3D view to show the homeowner the schematic of the new addition...Mike Smith   Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore

   
1. 
   bchanson | Oct 02, 2002 03:11am | #13

   Mike,

   Thanks, that also looks interesting. I will look further into that as well. Does Chief give you any flexibility in things like staircases or archways or curved walls? One program that I tried a couple of years ago, Punch! Home design, would only allow you to choose from a select few styles of stairs, for example.

   Brad

1. 
   xMikeSmith | Oct 02, 2002 03:46am | #14

   yes , Chief can do  all of those things.... so can Softplan & Vectorworks...and rendering... and walkthrus... and full printing capabilities...

   you can produce beautiful drawings , renderings or just plain jane working drawings.. whatever yo or your customers needMike Smith   Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore

4. 
   JohnSprung | Oct 02, 2002 01:20am | #11

   I used to use TurboCad, even beta tested a couple versions.  They don't bother to fix their bugs, they just want to add points to the feature list and churn out a new version every six months.  They make their money by getting you on the upgrade treadmill.

   From Turbo, I upgraded to AutoCad LT 2000i.  After some un-learning and re-learning, I'm very glad I did.  AutoCad is far more stable and much easier to use.  It also has the advantage that their .dwg file format is the industry standard for exchanging files, and none of the other programs do a good job of converting to that format.

   The funny thing about CAD is that once you start you'll do far more of it than you can ever imagine.  So it's worth your while to get something good the first time.

   -- J.S.

1. 
   bchanson | Oct 02, 2002 03:02am | #12

   John,

   Does the AutoCAD LT 2000i also do 3D views? I did some quick research on the net and it looked like it was 2D only but maybe I missed something since once you get to looking around for things there are so many options and slight variations that it's hard to compare apples to apples. I like the fact that is uses the dwg format for potentially easier sharing of files in the future. Thanks for your help.

   brad

1. 
   FastEddie1 | Oct 02, 2002 04:14am | #15

   No, Lite only does 2d.  Think of it as an electronic drafting table...whatever you can do on paper, you can do with Lite.  So if you can draw isometrics and perspectives on paper, well you get the picture.

   And I agree with the earlier message about higher performance programs and intuition.  I have been using Autosketch, AutoCad, and AutoCad LT since about 1986 (that would be v1 of Sketch and something like 2.9 of AutoCad) and there's nothing intuitive about it.  It takes practice and coinstant use to be able to draw with ease.

2. 
   JohnSprung | Oct 02, 2002 07:51pm | #19

   Lite has an isometric snap mode, and can do limited modification of 3D objects created in full AutoCad.  See pages 120 - 121 of the LT 2000i manual, or in the online help look at DSettings, IsoPlane, and ShadeMode.

   I agree completely that this is not easy stuff.

   -- J.S.

2. 
   BillHartmann | Oct 01, 2002 05:48pm | #8

   Exactly what are you wanting to do with the CAD program? What kind of drawns do you want to give to the client?

   I might have you mixed up with someone else, but I think that you just did framming and would get a set of plans to make you bids from.

1. 
   FrameBoss | Oct 02, 2002 01:31pm | #17

   we do usually just rough in houses yet like every one else we deversify  a little at times. We get pole barns... finish basements additions   ect...

1. 
   andybuildz | Oct 02, 2002 02:39pm | #18

   I found 3D arch pretty easy to learn, specially for the money it costs(under a hundred dollars depending on which version you purchase). The roof was the most difficult but still not all that bad.. For the money I think it puts on paper just for an estimate some real pro looking thoughts.

   a

   It's not who's right, it's who's left ~ http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM

   Edited 10/2/2002 7:40:15 AM ET by Andy Clifford(Andybuildz)

3. 
   Qtrmeg | Oct 01, 2002 09:10pm | #9

   You may try 3d Home Architect, just to get your feet wet with cad. For under $50 you can draw just about everything you will "need".

   I first tried it by accident, I was working on a comp for a friend and he left the disk in the cd. Version 2.something, and I figured I would give it a try. At first I realized what people here say about a learning curve, and said I can draw faster than this by hand. Step downs and complicated rooflines required some cobbing, but I could always fudge a drawing together.

   The short version of this long story is I moved on to Chief Architect, which had the same design engine and similar tools, but all of the features missing from the toy version, and I have a drafting table for sale. The last time I checked you got a $50 rebate towards your purchase of Chief, which more than covers what you have to pay for 3D, and the best part is you get to play with a simpler program until you are ready to move up, if you ever think you need to. If you do move up you will find that you can find your way around because you have already learned the basics of a very complicated program.

   One other reason I recommend this route is because Chief upgrades like I change socks. I get the impression you want to start with this, but know that it will be a while before you are proficient at it. This is a very inexpensive way to see if you like what they have to offer before you spend the $1000-1500 they want for the real programs, and when/if you are ready you will buy the latest version. But you may very well find that 3D does all you need for the near future.

   Just an option, like any of the other options we have.

4. 
   getgo | Oct 02, 2002 06:26am | #16

   check this site out....some free, some try and buy

   http://www.tenlinks.com/NEWS/special/wtc/index.htm

   
   

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   Edited 10/2/2002 1:03:15 AM ET by RAY5111