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Replies
Yes.
Don't know where you're located, so don't know what rot-resistant woods are available to you. Around my area (Ontario, Canada) the choices are cedar or hemlock.
Regards,
Tim Ruttan
Hay, I know you! Your Dad flies trees around the world, without stoping for water! Can't fool me! BW< Chuck KellerIf, at first, you fricascee, fry, fry a hen!
I've had poplar german drop siding and fascia on my house for 25 years with absolutely nothing on it and it looks like the day I put it up. Cant blanket condemn a certain species without knowing the application and situation.
Put an end to this right quick.
Poplar is not gonna be a sign post for very long. thats a period.
As trim ( painted) or siding (painted) it will be moderate in life span if also in protected locations.
I have 175 yr. old trim ( outside, shingle moulding, rake and soffit and fascia, and window trim) that has held up to date IN THE AREAS where it does not get hammered by the westerly storms..and is coated extensively with YRS and YRS of lead paint...
If he wants a sign post, I agree, Pop is NOT a candidate for longevity. Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Time, time, time look what's become of us..Time is all we have, spend it wisely with fervor..dance for no reason, love with out plans and live without worries..we all can.
You can't compare poplar used on the side of a house, hanging up in the air, to a poplar post stuck in the ground. Sure it will last longer as an exterior sheathing that was properly sealed and prepared. A post stuck in the ground is a whole different animal, with all of that exposure to water and dirt, ice and snow, freezing and thawing, etc.
One more proof of my eternal confusion...Up until this thread I was under the impression that the name "poplar" referred to a couple of different trees depending upon region.But no one in this thread has mentioned that, so I assume I have been wrong all this time.Rich BeckmanAnother day, another tool.
C'mon, you know better. But for this thread it doesn't matter. I was referring to tulip poplar, liriodendrum tulipifera, which isn't a true poplar but a member of the magnolia family. It's the mainstay of the hardwood plywood business and a common usage of "poplar". Big box stores sell it as such. Pretty sure Sphere was referring to the same.
A true poplar, of the genus populus, will also rot rapidly in wet ground contact. From what I gather, faster than liriodendrum tulipifera.
I continue to use liriodendrum tulipifera for an exterior wood very satisfactorily, just well-drained and no ground contact.PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
You missed my favorite one..
populose tremuloides..( Quakeing Aspen) Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Time, time, time look what's become of us..Time is all we have, spend it wisely with fervor..dance for no reason, love with out plans and live without worries..we all can.
So after all the info in this thread, maybe the poplar that has aged well outside is all heartwood? I have seen such on old homes but I have repaired lots of rotten stuff less than ten yrs old even backprimed , caulked...
yes. Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Time, time, time look what's become of us..Time is all we have, spend it wisely with fervor..dance for no reason, love with out plans and live without worries..we all can.
That's what I guessed, heres to a cooler week (?) in the bluegrass. Feel for you on that copper roof, I am trimming in a stuffy house, prob half the heat, and getting worn out . Even switched to tea in the morning, hard for a coffee junkie.
Tell me more! What part of the country? What species? Fast growing or slow? Thank you, ChuckIf, at first, you fricascee, fry, fry a hen!
Not sure what you're talking about, Chuck...
Regards,
Tim Ruttan
Burt Ruttan is a well known pilot and designer who recently ( last two years) flew his aircraft around the world, non-stop!! Quite a feat. Thought you might be related to this man. No wonder you scratched yopur head! BW, ChuckIf, at first, you fricascee, fry, fry a hen!
Tulip poplar is a poor choice. Heartwood of white oak or walnut would be fine. Around here, fence posts are normally either black locust or our local cedar, which is the most rot resistant.
PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
Poplar is a very hardy wood for outside use. Last year, I did a restoration of an 80 year old house sided in poplar. I'd say 98% of the stuff still looked new. The most damage was located at the ends of the boards where they hadn't been painted. That's to be expected of course, but it's MUCH better than pine at resisting rot!
----------------------------------------
Let me drop everything I'm doing so I can work on your problem!
Matt, that's old-growth poplar. Old growth pine weathers well, too - plenty of houses with 100 year old pine siding.
Regards,
Tim Ruttan
There really is not much difference in "old-growth" poplar and recently harvested poplar. Poplar grows in full-sun in "disturbed sites" like where there was a fire, blow-down (tornado, wind storm), or recent timber harvest, etc. Poplar is a tree with a very short life-span, so before it can be old enough to be old-growth it is dead. It has always grown fast, with large growth rings.With most species, your contention is correct though.
I agree with your assessment.
Poplar can work well for his post, provided the end grain has been sealed up well.
I built a dozen exterior shutters eight years ago that look as good as new. I sealed the end grain with as much exterior paint as it could hold and epoxied after that.
However there are of course better woods for long term ground contact.
Edited 6/9/2005 9:58 am ET by jackplane
There really is not much difference in "old-growth" poplar and recently harvested poplar.
Here's a possible counterpoint to that. Around here poplar has a reputation of being very rot prone. For that reason I haven't bought it for exterior work. Yet my 165 year old house appears to be sheathed in poplar and it it VERY rot resistant. That was why I originally checked into buying poplar.
You are correct.
OG consists of a larger percent of Heartwood, that is the real factor. See, them old guys knew what to use and what to discard.
I renovated an old ( pre Civil War) school house last summer, all the floor joists were heart pop. Not one termite, nor ant had chewed it up. The crawl had air flow, so it remained at or near relative humidity ( the bugs like ABOVE rel Hum as rule).
BUT and a big BUT at that, IN GROUND is a totally different animal, it is called FUNGUS, and Pop. is prone to decay from the various microbes and cellular critters that thrive on celluose..cellouse with out the natural resins or anti bodies to protect the cell walls.
Tannins in Chestnut and White Oak provide that defense, as do the Toluses tha impede transfer of cappilary action, Think about wine casks, they ARE white oak, because they have the impermability that red oak can't supply.
Walnut is a semi diffuse porous specie, it too has "blocked" pathways to the edible parts, and also has the benefit of a natural poison, IE: Juglans..it is TOXIC.
It can appear as a mild depressant in humans ( cuz we are bigger than a termite) or as a mild stimulant, ( read about Ridalin, and children)..either way, a planting under a walnut grove is doomed.
Southern Yellow pine WAS so resinous, that turpines were volitole, actually produced the first tar gums for ship building, and made more hazerdous to "fire cannon" which was the very same pitch that made the object stay afloat that they were lobbing at..Ironic huh?
Sorry. I just hadda try to explain,,and when i do, i create more corn fusion. Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Time, time, time look what's become of us..Time is all we have, spend it wisely with fervor..dance for no reason, love with out plans and live without worries..we all can.
I wish I could just hire you for the summer to work on my house.
Ed
LOL..
Let's talk, I ain't far away. And have Kin in Cleveland.
I have worked all over this great country, drove 20 hous straight thru from Philly to Mobile..I am game.
What ya need? Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Time, time, time look what's become of us..Time is all we have, spend it wisely with fervor..dance for no reason, love with out plans and live without worries..we all can.
Hi Sphere, I wish I could, but I can't. I just have to live with this place. I was an idealistic guy wanting an old house. That was in 1986. I bit off more than I can chew, or however the expression goes.
Ed
You must not know what I have undertaken............LOL
Looky here . http://forums.taunton.com/tp-breaktime/messages/?msg=38593.342
It is a labour of inconsisity and exploration.
Don't bother with the whole thing, it gets better towards the end, like a Stephen King novel. That is the really scary part, THE END. Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Time, time, time look what's become of us..Time is all we have, spend it wisely with fervor..dance for no reason, love with out plans and live without worries..we all can.
Hey thanks.
I knew that you had a major project underway from reading here. Very major. Bigger than my imagination. I like that photo of the exterior 1st floor unsheated.
It's that labor of exploration part that has gotten to me. I don't like where I've let it take me, but that's another story. Funny thing is that one of the reasons I bought this place was that it was supposed to provide an opportunity for some needed accomplishment.
"opportunity for some needed accomplishment"
Man, I LIKE THAT..great thought there. I couldn't describe it any better. Thank You. Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Time, time, time look what's become of us..Time is all we have, spend it wisely with fervor..dance for no reason, love with out plans and live without worries..we all can.
"opportunity for some needed accomplishment"
Man, I LIKE THAT..great thought there. I couldn't describe it any better. Thank You.
Sphere, it sounds to me like you REALLY understand that. What do you do to get yourself back up when the old sources of accomplishment no longer provide the lift.
" when old sources no longer provide the lift?''
Ijump into something totally new, like the copper work I have been doing lately..feels good to learn some new tricks and talents..like playing a new song for the first 100 or so times, until ya NAIL it perfectly. Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Insert your favorite George Harrison song HERE.
"Old Growth" refers to relatively ancient trees that grew slowly due to intense competition for light and nutrients. Most old-growth trees are or were 150-500 or more years old. As a result these trees can have 15-25 or more growth rings per inch. To make it as old-growth a species must be able to eak out a marginal existance for decades.Poplar is considered ancient if it reaches 60. Many poplars are doing good to make it 15-20 years. They grow rapidly in full sun and have large gowth rings. If the kind of competition that produces small growth rings exists the poplar dies.By definition, there is no old-growth poplar. It is an oxy-moron.
I'd say the best thing to use for a post is osage orange, but poplar of any age is better than the pine that I can get.
Look for posts with lots of "green" in them. Make sure they are kiln dried or at the least, cured well.----------------------------------------
Let me drop everything I'm doing so I can work on your problem!
Use cedar if you can get it. I remember my grandpa telling me about a cedar post he had on his farm that had worn out several post holes. - lol
Poplar has been used for exterior applications for quite a while.
There is more rot resistent wood available however.
Cedar being one.....but its rather soft.
Screw Pete!
Gabe for Governor!
I've seen this debate before; some say it will rot, some say it won't. All I can say is any poplar I've ever been involved with that went outside rotted like crazy, and faster than anything else I'ver seen except basswood; one company I worked for got caught badly. I won't use it outside (nor basswood).
If you're in the East, another possible is larch/tamarack/hackamatack.....the books only rate it 'moderately' resistant to decay, but it's used all through the Maritimes in wet places (used to be used for boats too). There's a western larch, but I've never used it.cabinetmaker/college woodworking instructor. Cape Breton, N.S
don't use as a sign post -- use something else
I'm with you. Any poplar I've seen outside hasn't lasted very long. I've done several jobs replacing poplar where it was installed well, backprimed, caulked, the whole deal. And most of it was less than 10 years old when I replaced it.
Not worth the risk, IMO.
In the ground it rots like a roll of wet newspaper. It is one of the least decay resistant woods you could use. Go to the Forest Products Lab web site for a chart showing which woods are best for your application.
http://www.fpl.fs.fed.us/documnts/fplrn/fplrn153.pdf
Richi, Can you erect a small, roof over it? BW, Chuck Keller
If, at first, you fricascee, fry, fry a hen!
I googled wood species for fence posts and got these results:
Black Locust or Osage Orange 20-25 yrs, Red Cedar 15-20 yrs, Wt Oak 10 yrs, Hickory 5-7 yrs, Red Oak 5 yrs, Honey Locust, Southern Yellow Pine, and Poplar 3-7 years, Sweetgum 3-6 yrs. Pressure treated 10-30 yrs.
here in the northeast, for the money we pay for poplar, there are MUCH better choices, poplar in my opinion, is a bad choice. Go for cedar or even a mahogany variant
I know this thread is very old but I wanted to add somethings and correct some statements.
Tulip Poplar's, aka yellow poplar, can live up to 300 years in the right conditions and regulary lives 100 to 200 years in urban areas. The largest tree in my state is a tulip poplar that is over 150ft tall and 14ft around at the base. It is estamated to be well over 200 years old. Some estimate that it could be over 300. Its in the middle of a wilderness area.
Old growth tulip poplar's that are 150 yrs and older have more heatwood and little sapwood. Since younger tulip poplar's grow fast they have a wind band of white sapwood. This sapwood has no resistance to decay. Thus, this explains some of the difference one sees in the decay of new poplar and that on very old homes. Also modern milling practices tend to take more from the outside of today;s logs. As a result , the lumber tends to have a high portion of sapwood, if not all sapwood.
There are many example's of homes build in the 1800's here in the south that were clad with tulip poplar and the clading has held up very well. However, I have personally seen new poplar lumber begin to rot within 10 years.
My conclusion, I would not use new poplar lumber for exterior applactions unless you can find some old growth trees, have it cut, let it sit for a few month and then have someone mill it for the heartwood.