CBU’s vs Ditra$ and other tile questions
I’m looking at pricing a job for a good customer of mine. About 1000-1200 sq ft. all on the first floor right near the garage so it’s EZ access coming and going with supplies.
Being it’s such a large floor I’m wondering which way to go. Hardi or Ditra.
Ditra is sure a lot faster but a lot more expensive. I need to figure out between laying Hardi and all the screwing down and cutting involved does Ditra really cost THAT much more….and in the end isn’t Ditra better than Hardi in so much as it gives the tile that much more protection from cracking with it’s isolation member technology?
Have any of you figured the cost effectiveness on a substantial sized job using Ditra vs Hardi?
Also if I do go Hardi..I know CBU screws are THE ONLY screws I’d use for all the obvious reasons but what about a mix of CBU screws and 1 1/2″ roofers…”in my roofing gun”? I know electro galvies aren’t as good as coated screws but Hardi says roofers are fine. What are your thoughts. A roofing gun sure would save time on such a large floor.
I also have to lay down a layer of 3/4″ subfloor b/c I think there’s only a 1/2″ subfloor under the existing oak floor I need to remove.
I always glue and screw my two layers of subfloor together. Do you think glue is an absolute necessity? I sorta do but’d like other opinions.
And when you screw the subfloors to the floor joists do you also add screws between the FJ’s. I always have but I think I just read some where that’s not a good idea b/c it causes voids???
And I usually use 3/4″ B/C ply but is there something less costly and just as good? I was thinking Advantech but thats not cheaper I don’t think.
Last question for now (geez…I should probably break this into two threads huh?) What do you all think of using a laser tile layout tool like the new Bosch GLT3 http://www.acetoolonline.com/Product…te=google_base
I do own the PLS180 laser level but I’m thinking the tile laser works a whole lot better for floor tile. Yes/No?
I’m tired of always searching for my pencil/thin magic marker layout lines under the thinset so a combo of the drawn lines and laser lines I’m thinking might make life easier.
The last two photos shows the rooms I opened up a year and a half ago or so that I’m now talking about covering
http://picasaweb.google.com/andybuildz/OpeningSpaces?feat=directlink
PS (edit)..all the cabs will be gutted and I’ll be installing new cabs plus.
Thanks
andy
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Edited 11/4/2009 4:08 pm ET by andybuildz
Replies
Andy ,
That Picasa web link didn't work for me .
Walter
That Picasa web link didn't work for me .<<<Thanks Walter...I just fixed it...I hopeView Image
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Not sure if this will help you or not, but I've been getting some estimates for a tile job in my own house in Chattanooga and I can't find anyone locally that likes to use Ditra in their installs. (You may have experience with Ditra for all I know)
From everything I've read, Ditra is superior to CBUs, so I was all gung ho to use Ditra in my own home, but I feel like I am asking for trouble when several highly recommended pros in my area tell me that they do not like to use it.
Not sure if this will help you or not, but I've been getting some estimates for a tile job in my own house in Chattanooga and I can't find anyone locally that likes to use Ditra in their installs. (You may have experience with Ditra for all I know)From everything I've read, Ditra is superior to CBUs, so I was all gung ho to use Ditra in my own home, but I feel like I am asking for trouble when several highly recommended pros in my area tell me that they do not like to use it.<<<<<Ryan...I've used Ditra a fair amount of times and love it. Just never used it on a job this size. I NEVER heard of a pro that had anything bad to say about it. Maybe they're unfamiliar with it and in some areas the only way to get it is via the mail which is no biggie.
Some people hate using new products so they poo poo it instead of being honest about their experience with it. I love it!View Image
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>>>From everything I've read, Ditra is superior to CBUs, so I was all gung ho to use Ditra in my own home, but I feel like I am asking for trouble when several highly recommended pros in my area tell me that they do not like to use it.So why? Clearly there is a disconnect between what you are reading and what your local Pros prefer.Personally, I find that my local Pros are VERY slow to respond to industry trends. Mostly because of the learning curve, but there are also issues with liability and customer ignorance.
"Why" is exactly what I'd like to know. You've probably touched on the real reasons. In my case, I'm looking at putting tile in a 20'x10' room. I'm not sure if Ditra is really warranted in my case, but I can't find anyone that wants to use it.
Andy haven't used ditra before but whenever laying durock I thinset it to subfloor. The one thing I do is atomize the ply prior to the thinset feel that it gets a little better stickem and the wet ply doesn't suck all the moisture out of thinset.
I've used roofers in gun or 1/2" crown staples once that thinset sets up it gets harder than dick with fastners included. Trust me on that as I have had to remove it before.
You were asking about clean up in another post, one thing I've done to ease all the sponge work is use terry cloth towels from big boxes and scrub tile faces keeping mindful of joints. Fine broom dust or shop vac. before wet sponge makes, clean up alot faster and whole lot less time.
Good point dan about misting the ply first. Never thought about that.
I was questioning using my roofing gun mixed with CBU screws and you go and say use crown staples...YOWZA....lol...I'd never even think to ask about using those...lol. Don't they rust under the thinset?I've always used cheese cloth to clean the haze but a terry towel sounds faster and cheaper.
I was asking about that in that other thread but it was when I was using those REALLY rough tiles with the uneven faces. Not sure how cheesecloth or terry towels would work in that case but I'll definitely give it try next time...can't hurt.
Those tiles SUCK to clean especially with dark grey grout. I was hatin' life big time...lol.View Image
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Both Ditra and backer board are underlayments for tile. One of them offers a decoupling between the expansion of the substrate and the tile, the other does not.
In your case, the tile is going down over a wood structure. And with an expanse as large as you mention, expansion differences could be a problem.
So in the case of this install, I'd probably use the Ditra. In addition, I'd probably be thinking in terms of an expansion joint in the grout lines.
(Been so long since I've done a really big floor that I'd have to look up how and where......but I WOULD look it up.)
I won't be laughing at the lies when I'm gone,
And I can't question how or when or why when I'm gone;
I can't live proud enough to die when I'm gone,
So I guess I'll have to do it while I'm here. (Phil Ochs)
Yeh...I'm going with Ditra I decided for several reasons. I know the underlayment (my second sheets of ply) doesn't get screwed into the joists and I need to split the joists with them about 1/4 being the joists are 16oc. Then thinset my Ditra with non modified TS.I heard a cool technique if ou don't wanna use unmodified on top. You skim-coat the waffles in the top..let it dry over night then the next day comb out your new thinset and set your tiles down after back buttering them. Nice flash, huh?I don't see why I'd need to use expansion joints when using Ditra but I'll ask over at John Bridges Forum just to dbl check what those guys think.
Thanks
andyView Image
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Andy,
since your underlay is plywood, I would use modified thinset for setting the Ditra, and misting the ply won't hurt either,...after installing the Ditra, you can go to the non-modified for setting the tile....as to your "trick" for using modified on top...I wouldn't waste my time, you can start setting as soon as the Ditra is down, but use the non-modified.
Geoff
Geoff...yeh I know you're supposed to use the unmod above the surface of the Ditra. I also know it's OK to use Versabond b/c it's just lightly modified but I'm going under the opinion that the VersaBond (lightly modified) is much stickier than the non mod.I'm probably just gonna go unmod for the top. I can't remember the last time I used unmod TS...I don't even think HD carries it. I'll have to travel to my tile supplier for it.Do you all remember the stickiness of unmodified? I always back butter...but still..I seem to have this rock in my head about the TS having to be nice'n sticky without being overly wet.View Image
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If you're looking for stickiness, use the white TS. I have no idea why, but it always seems to me to be stickier than the gray.
I won't be laughing at the lies when I'm gone,
And I can't question how or when or why when I'm gone;
I can't live proud enough to die when I'm gone,
So I guess I'll have to do it while I'm here. (Phil Ochs)
Do NOT use modified anywhere near Ditra ... trust the product and the engineering behind it. Let's just say I did not, and spent a ton of time removing and reinstalling a floor. ( and no, I won't give details since I still have some measure of pride left)
Second, while your floor is large, it isn't THAT large. If you just have to put in bisecting expansion joints (cut the whole thing into quarters) and use matching silicon grout that looks identical. The Schlutter guys will say you don't have to though.
btw, ditto on the benefit of Ditra vs. Hardi when it comes to install. Three rolls vs. 50 sheets is a no brainer.
"Have any of you figured the cost effectiveness on a substantial sized job using Ditra vs Hardi?
Andy, very roughly, the price differential is about 35 cents a foot more for Ditra. My last Ditra purchase was five rolls for $1750, about $1.08 a sqft. Hardie is roughly $10 a board, or 67 cents foot. Add screws, maybe 75 cents.
Things to keep in mind: A roll of Ditra is worth about 21 sheets of Hardie. For materials handling, Ditra wins.
Installation? Snap a few lines, cut your Ditra to length, roll it up, thinset, unroll, and move on. Much easier and faster than Thinset, plop a sheet of hardie, screw it down, NEXT. Ditra wins. Cutting? Ditra wins. Hauling off the "waste"? Ditra wins.
The only caution is that using a modified on top of Ditra with large format tile (these were something like 18" by 24" tiles weren't they?) is that you might want to give the tiled floor a couple of days to cure prior to grouting. You might even want to ask Schluter tech. I also use VersaBond over Kerdi or Ditra, but not when using large format tiles like yours. I go back to using unmodified.
Adding underlayment over subfloor: I don't think glueing is necessary. But I do screw, 4-6" on the edges and 8-10" in the field.
When tiling floors I never use spacers, I snap grid lines. Then I'll thinset a grid, tile it, thinset the next grid, etc. so my lines don't get lost. I use an ink line for snapping lines on Ditra. Works well.
I've used a laser for laying out my lines, but never for tiling off of. I think I'd spend too much time moving and resetting the laser, etc. But you might have better methods than me.
So overall? For 1000 sqft of flooring, the Ditra would cost me about $350 more in materials. But it'll save me a couple of days labor, it'll be easier on my muscles, and Ditra will give a better performing floor than cement board.
Thanks so much Mongo...The Ditra from Tile Protection.com is about $1100 for the 3 roll pack...just under 1000sq ft. after they discount it. I checked yesterday.I have an important question. Being the floor is almost 40' long I'm concerned I need expansion joints across the middle of it every ?? amt of feet but I don't have the TCNA Manuel. I think it;s on pages 20-22?. I may have linked eric to it a year back but I can't find mine.
The floors going to be a sort of V pattern so I can't just lay a foam expansion joint straight across the floor at...how ever many feet you're supposed to do this. Also when I was Googling "expansion joints in tile" Laticrete says you can't use tile caulk in place of grout to do this but I'm not sure if thats right. I have no idea how you'd do it it there's no straight line across the tile...and to be honest with you.....all the ,iles of tiles I've done I've never done a room this long so I've never needed to deal with expansion joints in tile.Any clue?
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They essentially they say put expansion joints in, but they also understand that in cases like yours it's impossible or impractical to put them in. In that case, they say to:
1) Install the underlayment properly, with the sheets gapped and with a proper fastening schedule
2) leave a gap around the perimeter of the room that can be covered by baseboard
3) provide a transition strip at each doorway if possible.The on-line Ditra installation guide has some info, also around page 20.
Yeh, I read all that but it also says somewhere in a room similar that you need to put an
E J every 25-30' ( I forget exactly) and this room I think is over 35'...maybe 40' (I'll see Monday). It's close to acceptable but not quite and I need one under that header I put in that crosses into the kitchen.Cpl people mentioned using colored matching tile cauk and sprinking a little grout over it...hmmm..not a bad idea but I'm still looking for the proper EJ.
Maybe this http://www.tileprotection.com/home.php?cat=82
but I'd have to cut it into pieces and how do you finish the top to match the grout? UGH
Caulk might work.View Image
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Andy, Sorry to say that I can't offer much more advice on this one. I've never had the need to use the Schluter expansion joints. The best I can offer is when I've tiled over slabs, and I honored the control joints in the slab by establishing a grout line over the control joint and then filling with a color-matching caulk. Having to establish a zig-zag joint across the floor out of Dilex does not sound like fun.
I'll call Schluter but....ugh. If it were JUST a zig zag even that wouldn't be bad but a V pattern or herringbone pattern...there's not much of a line to follow so I may go with the advice of some that say I can use a color matched caulk and do the best I can.
In Johnny B's Liberry he does have a page on expansion joints and says you can use silicone...nothing about color matched caulk....I'll have to ask over there again after I talk to Schluter.View Image
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I know this won't make you feel better or worse...but several years ago I did a slab out by my pool. Size is about 36' wide by over 60' long.
While I did cut control joints into the slab, when I tiled it I used Ditra and then tiled without regard to the control joints at all. 16" tiles.
No harm, no foul, no cracks anywhere after all these years of winter freeze and summer temps where the tiles have to get over 100 degrees after baking in the afternoon sun.
Granted, it's a pool and not a living room. But the Ditra has to be doing it's job in the great outdoors.
Speaking of the pool, it's time to fire up the hot tub and have a cold one.
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Looks awesome. That musta been fun : ) Whatcha mix all that mud up in? Wheelbarrow or cement pan?I think I'd worry more about a house floor and cracking tiles vs your job b/c your job is almost solid cement vs in the house has all the different layers of materials but then again I seem to always look for something to worry about.Speaking of pools I closed mine last weekend. Took photos to prove it worked right before I put it to sleep...in case someone buys my house over the winter.
http://picasaweb.google.com/andybuildz/PoolClosingOct09?feat=directlinkView Image
The Woodshed Tavern Backroom
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Yeah, the pool area is one of my favorite places to hang out. Swimming, tubbing, or just hanging out at the fire circle. Just came in from the spa as a matter of fact. I figure I'll close it up after next weekend.I actually mixed up the thinset a bag at a time in a drywall bucket, using a drill and a paddle. I use two buckets, and have two batches going simultaneously. While one slakes, I spread the other. Back and forth.I remember the photos you posted of your pool way back when, back when you bought the place. You've done good reclaiming that space, son!
and for eighty bucks you too can have one of these
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a-0hLOpL8lc
I use a spackle mud mixer in my drill but this is tempting!! Wish it was 1/2 the price though.View Image
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That does look nifty.
Andy-
the HD near me carries unmodified thinset. I'm guessing others do, too.
what I don't like about the unmodified TS is that it seems to set up faster than the modified. I have to learn to either have to mix smaller batches at a time, or work faster <G>
Shep...I spoke with my tile dealer today. I'm just gonna figure all the thinset...modified and unmodified, the grout, caulk and the Ditra and let my customer order it with his tile...then it won't my number look half as scary...lol...plus they can deliver the entire thing.
All I need to supply is the 3/4" B/C ply and coated deck screws..oh yeh..and the trowels.
Might even put the Ditra trowel on his list to buy for me..heh heh. I mean how often do you need an 11/64x11/64" trowel?It's worth it to him cuz I ain't marking it up and he needs this stuff no matter who does this job and it's good for me b/c if I make an error in the amt of anything...it's on him. 1000 sq ft and Ditra and 16x24" tiles means I'll prolly' use 1/4x1/2" trowel to apply for the tiles and that will use a LOOOOOOTTTTT of thinset! Get my mud mixer out to put in the drill and small plastic cement pan and get to makin' Lots O' Mud : )View Image
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>>what I don't like about the unmodified TS is that it seems to set up faster than the modified.<<<I think that's part of the point being it's trapped against two surfaces that don't really breath or absorb moisture.
'Tween the plywood and Ditra you use modified.
What I don't like about unmod is it ain't as sticky...but if you back butter all yer tiles there shouldn't be a problemo at all.View Image
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Ditra
too late