Replies

1. 
   Guest_ | May 02, 2000 09:23pm | #1

   *
   we do both,, and we'd be high end..

   are these really ((((shakes)))) shakes would be hand splits.. or .

   are they cedar shingles.. probably red cedar 18"?

   either way, we'd use a gun nail, usually Stainless steel... and the guys working the edges and the details would be hand nailing with a hot-dipped galvanized 5 d box nail.....

   we'd be installing it over Cedar breather mesh, too..

   with copper flashings..

   and red cedar trim..

1. 
   Guest_ | May 03, 2000 03:12am | #2

   *I've always nailed mine by hand, but then I'm doing them for myself - not under contract to someone else. Mike Smith: It sounds like you have considerable experience with cedar shakes/hand splits. I've always heard that the premium hand splits will last longer because they have been split naturally following the grain - any experience with that? Also, tell me about the mesh - I've always used 1x2 nailers but that does raise the roof surface slightly and requires edge trim. Does the mesh really allow good air circulation on a par with nailers? I continue to be amazed at the builders and home owners who spend a small fortune on cedar roofing only to have it nailed directly to builder's felt - I'm amazed the roofs last as long as they do installed this way.

1. 
   Guest_ | May 03, 2000 03:16am | #3

   *Ahhh, nice! You be high-end! Does that cedar breather mesh add much in the way of $ to the job, Mike? Curiously, Steve

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   Guest_ | May 03, 2000 03:28am | #4

   *from memory i think the Cedar Breather was $80 for a 2 sq roll...and my guess is that it has the same effect as the skipped sheathing...there is less surface contact so even though the space is only 3/8 .. with the skipped sheathing the contact is the width of the sheating (say 2.5... or 3.5 inch per course)we had to find something about five years ago.. and so far we really like it..you have to develop some details at the roof edge and the hips and ridge....but you had to have some details for the skipped sheathing too..but labor wise it goes down just about like felt..and you can cut it with a good pair of shears...as far as shakes being longer lived than shingles.. i'd think it was the opposite.. the water tends to stay in the grooves..but the guys at Liberty Cedar say it's mostly a function of thickness.. the thicker the butt, the longer the life.. all things being equal .. like if you got into a source from old first growth.. that supposedly has more decay resistance than farm trees...i think stanley niemec knows a lot about cedar shingles and related...b but hey , whadda i know?

2. 
   Jason_Kehl | May 03, 2000 03:47am | #5

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   I am a first year apprentice and we are to be putting shakes on a garage this weekend. Can they be put diectly on the felt or do they need the breather space already mentioned? The guy I am apprenticing under has mentioned only the felt. Thanks.

3. 
   Guest_ | May 03, 2000 03:56am | #6

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   well... if i were u ..i'd go to work and tell him in no uncertain terms that some guy on the internet says he don't no squat.....

   hmmmm... on second thot...

1. 
   Guest_ | May 03, 2000 04:06am | #7

   *Read the package, and follow it if you want the warranty to be inforceable.blue

1. 
   Guest_ | May 03, 2000 04:21am | #8

   *Yeah I'd use the gun but keep an eye on the pressure. Let them breathe, no curl and no rot.David

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   Guest_ | May 03, 2000 04:39am | #9

   *Jason,You may want to find someone else to give your time to. Unless you want to learn the wrong way to do things.MD

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   Guest_ | May 03, 2000 05:10am | #10

   *Well I guess Mike wants me to express an opinion.I wrote two Extension publications applicable to this thread (one on "the care and maintenence of shingle and shake roofs" and the other on "pneumatic nailers").Relative to longevity, thicker is better providing you are talking about consistent extractive content of the thujaplicines within WRC. However there is considerable variablility in extractive content (within trees and between trees). Within older (old growth trees) excluding sapwood, there tends to be more decay resistent extractives in the outside layers than in the core. Likely there is leaching or oxidation over time. Second growth material, as with redwood, is less decay resistant than the old-growth, possibly due to faster growth rates. I would have to do a specific literature search or dig through boxes of files to determine if this also applies to WRC. My GUESS is that it would. From my perspective good care and maintenence is as important, if not more so, relative to longevity. Shaded roofs that stay wet longer, roofs that are allowed to grow moss (as in the PNW), roofs where debris is allowed to accumulate, and roofs with greater southern exposure will not last as long. Decay is promoted with increased wetness and sun light (especially UV radiation) will degrade wood.In the Extension Bulletin I wrote, I recommend repeated retreatment with appropriate wood preservatives and if necessary the application of pigmented stains that act as UV inhibitors. Roofs that have copper (best) or zinc (less effective) strips applied at appropriate intervals will also last longer because the metal oxidizing and leaching down the surface will impede biological growths (moss, mildew, fungi). If I had a shake roof, I would definitely include copper strips or more realistically, bare copper ground wire at about 8-10 foot intervals. I don't because I live in an area that is surrounded by trees and I want to minimize building exposure to fire so I have a metal roof.I see several advantages to using pneumatic staplers over hand nailing. The first is that staples are of thinner overall diameter (two points as opposed to one large one) and splitting increases (generally as a function of increasing fastener diameter). Also pneumatic tools will drive the fastener in one rapid instant. Repeated nailing causes more shock to the wood and greater likelihood of splitting. That said, hand nailing is better than improper stapling especially if the crown of the staple in driven into the wood. Hand nailing generally allows the head not to be driven into the face of the shake/shingle. If the stapling is done with the correct air pressure, then crown setting can be avoided. Pneumatic nailers are a very definite labor saving device. WRC is also a relative stable wood in terms of dimensional stability so I have little concern about expansion and contraction across the distance of the staple crown.I agree that the bottom surface of the shingle/shake needs breathing space. Shingle/shake roofs are not totally impenetrable to water (especially water vapor); if the bottom remains excessively wet, decay can/will exist. Also the roof sheathing can decay if it remains wet for extended periods of time.Shakes and shingles, like lumber and plywood come in different grades. It is necessary to get a comparision of which contractor is applying what grade. The amount of exposed face will make a difference vis a vis longevity as will the slope of the roof.I cannot think of anything else and I certainly would like to hear more pragmatic experience for the real experts -- the people who do it for a living!!! Book learning is only appropriate to a point and it has to coincide with the wisdom of experienced and professional intallers.Stanley

2. 
   Guest_ | May 03, 2000 05:25am | #11

   *Stanley, we drew straws over in the tavern and I drew the shortest. i'm the one that has to come in and correct yuo, about one little teenie ittie bitty white falseeeeehood.You (another previous member of the air club also mentioned this) said; "If the stapling is done with the correct air pressure, then crown setting can be avoided. " I don't agree that the air pressure is responsible for driving the staple too deep. That function is decided by exterior manipulationof the nosepiece. Before the advent of adjustable nosepieces on nail guns, I used to grind down the driver tip and that would "adjust" the dept hof the driven nail.I tried adjusting the air pressure to alter depth but failed miserable every time.blue

3. 
   Guest_ | May 03, 2000 01:30pm | #12

   *Stanley... one other small point.. teeney weeney, actually..we don't use no stinkin staples...we use a SS. ring shank box nail, about $125 a box,from Bostich...and we use a sidewall coil-nailer with an adjustable nose to set the depth..we use that gun for all of our sidewall because of the adjustable depth feature..same gun,any siding....('cept vinyl)it's all commin back now.. you reminded me of another good reason for the copper flashings... because of our last discussion where i had been usin zinc... which of course is harder to come by anyways..mind now.. before i get blue out of his seat... i got nuttin against staples,, we don't want another nail to inventory.. so with the C60 , we can shoot any kind of nail we need....sidewall, sheathing, subfloor, trim...yada, ........

4. 
   Guest_ | May 03, 2000 04:54pm | #13

   *Good discussion guys - you've really covered the bases - Taunton ought to consider taking these kinds of discussions and putting them into a compendum of techniques so that someone 6 months down the road could just look-up a description of the technique in a ready reference on the job site.

5. 
   Guest_ | May 03, 2000 05:06pm | #14

   *gregg, nah, you don't wanna do that ...i've never even seen a cedar shingle..nothin but concrete and steel bars here... i've just retold this story so many times i get better at it every time..and stanley... he's a lifer too..everything he knows he learned in the prison library.....let the midnite special.....shine it's light on me......

6. 
   Guest_ | May 03, 2000 06:34pm | #15

   *Not when you consider the extra time the shakes will last due to being ventilated ...

7. 
   Guest_ | May 03, 2000 06:49pm | #16

   *I agree with the issues raised relative to nailers. Fastener setting from my experience is a function of both tip adjustment and air pressure.I also have always been fascinated by the fact that the general use of the term "institution" includes universities, prisons and mental health facilities. I've never been in the latter two but from my experiences in academia, I can certainly see parallels with the other two. Plenty of lifers and plenty of nutters and lots of 'em just doing time.My expertise is really in wood and fine wood machining rather than building -- I built my shop and a friend with both woodworking and carpentry experience (as well as being a wood technologist) used to criticize me about my level of accuracy in measurement and cutting on the building. He used to say that "we were not building a piano".Want to evaluate my work? -- check outhttp://niemiecstudios.com

8. 
   Guest_ | May 03, 2000 06:51pm | #17

   *That's a pretty wide bid range - is $26,000 explained by the difference between hand and nailgun? Or are there other factors?Done (2) shake roofs, 6 years old and 3 years old with cedar breather, #1 blue label tapersplits, lead-coated copper etc. Also ice & water shield eave-to-ridge (yes, I know ..) Looks like they are going to last a very long time - doing it 'right' does make a difference IMHO.A man who knows all - Homer Earll, Annapolis MD, (410) 269-6848. Eastern regional rep for Cedar Shake and Shingle Bureau. Liason w/ roofers, capenters, suppliers, architects, you name it. His middle name is Thuja Plicata. He actually has a personal collection of cedar shingles from 1700's - present.Two after-installation treatments I've seen recommended:TWP - by Amteco San Diego CA 619-558-0800X-100 - by Amerian Bulding Restoration ChemicalsHowever, no direct experience, yet, w/ either one.

9. 
   Guest_ | May 03, 2000 07:16pm | #18

   *i filled out the evaluation survey on yur site....A-plus fer the site.. and a-plus fer the werk..

4. 
   N._Moore | May 03, 2000 07:16pm | #19

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   I've gotten 3 bids to re-roof my cedar shake house - from $22,000 to $48,0000 (and some in between). The high end guys say you have to hand nail. The low end guys say you can nail with a gun. Who's right?