Has anybody used this software for home plans. Please give me a feedback.
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I have, I like it quite a lot. Pretty steep learning curve but it's powerful. There's a good user's group on Yahoo with many helpful, patient (always a plus ;) ) experienced users...
Is it possible to use it to draw up my plans and have it stamped by an architect for permits.
for a one-off set of plans .. you will be way ahead to hire the architect to do it all
i've used Chief since '97.. great program.. but doesn't seem compatible with your game planMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
What do you mean? Elaborate please.
Yes, you could draw your own plan, good enough to build from. But the program is "stoopid" ... it only draws what you tell it. So if you have no experience drawing plans, it's not going to be much help.
Assuming you can draw thje plans, no archiotect will stamp them for you. Do a search and read thread 55562 (I don't know how to do a shortcut). This same idea (getting an archy to stamp plans) was discussed in detail.
I'm sorry, I thought you wanted it done the right way.
http://forums.taunton.com/n/mb/message.asp?webtag=tp-breaktime&msg=55562the way I do it is to open that thread in another window, right click onthe browseer address bar, and hit, copy location, then paste it here in thsi dialouge box.
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On a slightly different note. We're looking for a comparison and critique of the best 2D software packages. Several architects we deal with use AutoCad and recommend AutoCad LT for 2D. AutoCad seems to be the gold standard in our area, so part of their recommendation is based on the ability for us to have 100% transferability to them with our designs. I believe there are other packages out there that have compatibility, are professionally 2D capable, and easier to learn. Compatibility with AutoCad is not my 1st priority, competence and ease of mastery is. Any experience or suggestions?As a side bar, not 1 of the 4 architects I talked to hardly ever use the 3D function of their program. All said 2D is what is required to produce a set of permit acceptable documents and they don't nor do they want their staff spending time creating 3D prints. Too much time and effort for them and too much expense for the client. I thought 3D was all automatic?Never serious, but always right.
Edited 3/29/2005 2:30 am ET by Russ
russ.. my guess .. for your purposes... Acad Lt would be the one
those architects who never draw in 3d might as well still be on drawing boards
i know lots of great architectural firms that work exclusively in 3d.. with
Revit, Archicad, Vectorworks..
i also know a lot of ARCHITECTS who use Softplan and Chief
my guess is that in most architectural firms, a pluarality would be using Autocad
Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Thanks Mike. The wire frame answer after yours explains why AutoCad takes so much extra time and effort. I just couldn't understand how that could be after reading the Chief and softplan literature. It's counter intuitive to me that the most popular program is the most time and effort intense.Again thanks.Never serious, but always right.
ACAD is not really "popular"They own the territory through structure and marketing. They get it taught in the schools. They bought out many of their earliest competitors simply to shelve the software and get it off the market and increase their own market share/territory. The designers who learned ACAD in school have often never openned their eyes to look eleswhere and to investigate object based programs that do it well.
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Whine, whine, whine
You would be the one whinning if you realized that for you to do appoximately the same thing I can with Softplan, you have to spend far more money, live through a steeper learing curve, and work slower. Plenty of ACAD users rave once they make the switch. ACAD has it's place in rocket shps and commercial design but it's a dinosaur for residential.
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Get off your high horse. If you would have perused my original post, you would know that I said, "Let me give you an example." Nowhere did I compare it with any other 3D software. I do not know enough about most other packages to make a comparison.
I'm not the one on a high horse, chuckles.You started the negatives with your whinewhinewhine complaint when all I did was point out ACADs marketing bulliness. Your example post was fine, but trying to bully and do put downs is wasting your breathe.
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Russ, there are two types of 3D. Autocad 3d is what's called "wireframe", and you have to build every line yourself. Takes extra time, hard to keep things in the right plane when you're drawing, etc.
Then there's what's called object based drafting, like Chief, Softplan, Vectorworks. Even 3d Home Architect fits into this category. You draw the floor plan, and the program builds a 3d model for you. It's "automatic", but you have to learn how to set it up to make it automatic.
As a part-time designer, I use Autocad LT. Like Mike Smith said, I might as well be on a drafting board as far as speed goes. I use the CAD for accuracy and because my drafting skills are not top-notch.
If you want a professional-quality 2d program, I worked in an office for a couple of years where I learned PowerCADD, which runs on a Mac. Much like AutoCAD, but because of lots of intuitive and user-friendly details I could draft two or three times faster than I can by hand or with AutoCAD. They have an excellent free user group too.
Mike
Thanks for your reply. Now I understand the time and effort problem for the AutoCad users.I'm surprised though that the drafting doesn't go faster. Drawing, changing, correcting, redesigning takes a lot of time. It just seemed to me that there had to be some time advantages using a Cad program. One advantage for me of AutoCad LT is the local Jr College offers a course in it.Never serious, but always right.
"advantage for me of AutoCad LT is the local Jr College offers a course in it."See what I mean?
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Having researched PowerCadd, it looks very intriguing. However, the necessity to purchase a new Apple system is a deal breaker. Is there anything for the PC that resembles Powercadd? I assume not or you would be using it instead of AutoCad LT.Never serious, but always right.
Russ, the cost of getting a new Apple system was the dealbreaker for me too. I had tried Turbocad a few years ago and wasn't impressed. AutoCAD LT is probably the closest thing to PowerCADD, at least that I've tried. If you're only doing your house, Mike Smith is right--you're probably better off just hand-drafting it.
Mike
I see TurboCAD taking a few lumps here. I don't pretend to be an expert, but I've had very good luck with this package.
I've actually had two versions of the code. Ten years ago, or so, I bought TC 3 for about $50. It was a simple 2D package that I used the heck out of for furniture and deck design. It wasn't a great piece of software, but I was able to get a lot of good out of it and the learning curve was gentle. (Compare that to the AutoCAD I have available at work, whose learning curve looks like El Capitain! I get around in AC know, but it's not simple.)
When I started designing my timberframe, I needed a 3D code. I upgraded to TC 8 for something like $199. Again, it's not the greatest thing since sliced bread, but the value is amazing. For under $200 ($250 if you count my original $50 investment), I was able to generate a full 3D model of my frame, which I use both for foundation design and as a guide for the SIP provider to precut panels for me.
And because this model includes all the joinery (mortises, tenons, even complex valley rafter tenons) I will also be able to pull the frame drawing apart to get piece part drawings of every member of my frame. I can align them as they will appear in my work area, so I can see all the vertical posts and know "ok, all of them have this tenon on the top and a mortiser on th front face, but 6 have a mortise on the left face while the other 6 have the mortise on the right." Maybe that's not a big deal to you guys that do this professionally, but I think it could save a lot of head-scratching and expensive errors for me.
Even with AutoCAD available at work, I prefer to use TurboCAD to generate quick concept drawings. I know that if I spent more time in AC, I'd get better at it. But that's just the point - I get productivity out of TC without that time investment.
I've run into a couple quirks, but haven't stumbled into any bugs. Even those quirks might be more "user error" than a software problem. For instance, I haven't been able to move an item a precise distance. Instead, I copy the item the required distance and delete the original. Another problem for me is that measurements are always made in the workplane. You can't grab two defined points in space and find the distance between them without first defining a plane that contains those points. That kind of stuff.
I'm not disputing anyone's claims the TurboCAD is inferior to other CAD packages. I honestly don't know how they compare. It's certainly inferior to AutoCAD, in terms of pure power. There's a reason why mechanical designers use the expensive codes (Pro-Engineer, AutoCAD) But in terms of value for the non-professional, I think Turbo deserves a look. I've gotten a lot of good out of it for a very small cost. I'd be very surprised to find a better piece of software for the same money.
"Listen, strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government."Jon
I'm from the contrary school of design. Form then function, dynamite curb appeal front elevation, then modify a working floor plan to fit, and add high interest detail to the remaining elevations. Now this is for a spec home where "hooking" the drive by browser is critical.I took drafting in high school and college. I know little or nothing about drafting cad programs or anything else for that matter. However, I can't believe that there isn't a good professional cad program out there that would greatly reduce the time and tedium of revision drafting. To get a decent elevation you may try 10 or 12 combinations of window sizes, styles, and locations. 6 or 8 porch and gable details, on and on. To be able to click and drag options rather than hand draw them seems to me to be a quantum leap in efficiency.I want to use the elevations for marketing; brochures ad copy, site sign blow ups, etc. I develop the elevation and basic floor plan, give it to an architect who produces the stamped construction documents.Below are 2 narrow lot homes. For my next project I'm going to combine details and add a side load garage to one side or the other, for a 90' lot. But to have to hand draw scores of possibilities to get the right elevation detail and balance, is excruciating. There's got to be a better way.Never serious, but always right.
There are those who design from the outside in
and those who design from the inside outbut the good home designers
do it both at the same time.
Those both look great! Are they liveable?
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I believe so, but that's why we or at least I have a smart wife. These have the advantage of being boxes and lend themselves to proven floor plans. We try to leave them as open as possible on the 1st floor and not install the finishes until the bank insists. I can show buyers other work for finish ideas, so if possible and we're lucky we can get them sold with the new owner, or more likely owners smart wife, having the ability to significantly self customize the interior and finishes.Not to belabor my original question, but. I've had several architects recommend AutoCad LT for my needs. They, or coarse have used it for years and stress comparability with full Acad, for which I couldn't care one wit. After your critique, which prompted a little research, I belive you are dead on about Acad. However, there does not seem to be a PC compatible program under 2 grand, with the intuitive ease of Apples app PowerCadd. Because AutoCad LT has training available, that there are numerous users locally and forums available to ask questions, and is fairly reasonably priced, am I better off buying LT with its limitations and I'm afraid steep learning curve or is there a professional something else out there for we folks that ride the high tech short bus? Also aren't there add on's out there that make LT more capable?Never serious, but always right.
sorry, russ... the answer is... no, you can't get just a little pregnant..
AC Lt. is a fine program.. but if you are considering how to make add-on's to it, you should just jump in the water..
Chief is better..
Softplan is better..
Vectorworks is better..
so... 2d ?... AC Lt. will be great
3d ?.... in for a dime ...........
get a demo disk....Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Instead of worrying about a computer and software and learning to use the software, have you thought of hiring a designer/drafter on a contract or part time basis? That would free you up for other types of work, and you wouldn't have to worry about the bits and bytes.
Like most owners and as the end of my tagline indicates, I'm dumb enough to think I can do it better myself. Actually cad's a contemporary skill I would like to learn, and even if I hired a designer, going thru all the design and style scenario's would still use much of my time plus plenty of money. I look at it as a continuing ed, added capability, and just plain fun opportunity. But initially and I'm talking a few years, learning cad 2D will fill my plate and it's an upgraded skill I already have a background and experience in, in the conventional world, hopefully cutting down my learning curve and frustration quotient.Never serious, but always right.
Thanks Mike, I didn't mean to add capability toward the 3D world, if that's what you thought. As I understand it there are add on's that provide many more click and drag elements such as window designs and styles, cabinet designs, door and interior trim designs, etc. Or maybe other small programs that would make it more intuitive or save a step here or there. Still only 2D just more efficient. I see and understand now why all these other programs you mentioned appear to stand head and shoulders over Acad. I don't know if you read Piffins reply of the explanation why so many architects ended up using Acad, but it seems to be an incredible efficiency and cost mistake especially for residential design. As I mentioned, an architect I know well, that does work for a large semi custom development company, and employs several other architects and cad people, won't allow his personnel to even hint to their clients that they have 3D capability, because it would be so time consuming, therefore expensive, to produce the work in Acad. He says rather than up grading their Acad package next time they'll go to LT. Unless there's something I'm missing I don't know why they wouldn't go to one of the programs you mentioned and offer the client enhanced service. A competitor might,huh. Maybe it's the retraining and learning curve cost. Thanks again for your input.Never serious, but always right.
russ..... i think that acad provides some additional discipline that architectural offices require in working with draftsmen, engineers, landscape architects.. etc.
multi-users tend to complicate the drawings..
however.. some 3d, like Archicad and Vectorworks provide that same discipline and interconnectivity with the input from others
Chief can do this also.. and , as a matter of fact vs. 10 makes great strides in imposing some of this...
so... some of the headaches of supervision are easier with ACAD.. with the others you have to use different rules...
so.. it's like the Army way .. our someone else's way..
Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
'On a slightly different note. We're looking for a comparison and critique of the best 2D software packages. Several architects we deal with use AutoCad and recommend AutoCad LT for 2D. AutoCad seems to be the gold standard in our area, so part of their recommendation is based on the ability for us to have 100% transferability to them with our designs. I believe there are other packages out there that have compatibility, are professionally 2D capable, and easier to learn. Compatibility with AutoCad is not my 1st priority, competence and ease of mastery is. Any experience or suggestions?'
Since our budget in no way can cover an archetiect or even a drafter I have had to produce all of our drawings for our permits. These drawings include 3-d renderings and line drawings of floor plans. I looked around a bunch at the cheaper floor plan software and went with Imsi FloorPLan 3D. The software was under 50 bucks and it does pretty much everything I need it to do. There is good support in their unline forums and its cheap. I am attaching a rendering of the deck we did and darned if the real deck does not look pretty much just like it.
Daniel Neuman
Oakland CA
Crazy Home Owner
Very nice deck.
Jon Blakemore
In a good modeling program it is automatic, but autocad stole the name auto and failed to deliver the auto part of the package
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It's incredible to me, now that I understand the "wireframe" vs "Object based" operating differences, that an architectural office would want, let alone could afford, time not acquisition cost, AutoCad. These architect's I know are smart talented people but, from what little I've learned here, seemingly have totally missed the boat from a business efficiency perspective and the retaliative small effort value added 3D capability of these other popular Cad programs.However, back to my original question; I don't necessarily have a need for 3D. If 3D is included as a low or no cost additional feature, fine but, I'm still interested 1st in a 2D program with professional results that makes the drafting process easier and /or more efficient, especially for elevations. Any ideas?Never serious, but always right.
I have both Intellicad and Turbocad. Intellicad is probably closest to ACAD - the fuller package at a price less than ACAD lite.Turbo has more toys and a few bugs thrown in. I only hear about the bugs. Don't use it enough to have had them hit my windshield
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I agree entirely with Mike. It's a relatively expensive, fairly complex program to master (I don't claim to have done so, btw) and if you're going to use it once, I can't imagine it's going to be practical. Not to mention the odds of geting all the myriad details right in a reasonable amount of time and effort...
I used Chief to develop the plans for my house. It is a complicated software package, but the training disks were very helpful. I think I paid about $1650 for the software and training disks.
My situation was a bit unusual, in that I'm building a timberframe house. No local designers wanted anything to do with it, and the people I found via the timberframer's guild wanted a fortune (in my estimation) to draw the plans. If I remember correctly, I was getting bids in the $14,000-$20,000 range.
I didn't need an archy signature, just an engineer. I showed an engineer my plans and a mountain of engineering calcs I'd performed. He asked a couple questions. I was able to answer well enough to convince him that I knew what I was doing, so he stamped them.
Now, I'm a detail-oriented guy, and I spent months refining my floorplans/frame plans/elevations. I also have to add that I'm early in the building process, so I can't claim to have avoided any and all code violations. I believe I've got it covered, but we'll see.
If you aren't a bit of a maniac and/or you want the plans done quickly, this route is not for you.
I guess my bottom-line answer is that it is possible to do your own plans with Chief. But if you can find a designer or Arch. that will draw them up for a few thousand $$, I'd suggest letting them do it.
Jon
Once you take the "tutorial", you can bang out a floor plan pretty easily. Also, modifiying, and making changes to that plan is too easy. "Point" "drag" "click" DONE.
I would say it's easier to draw details manually ( That's t-square, triangle, and pencil)
If you do manage to do it all with the software, your going to need a plotter, unless you want to tape together 8 1/2 x 11 pieces of paper. Or, there's suppose to be a way to burn it on a disc and take it to a print shop.
Good Luck with it.
How complicated is your house?
blue
Just because you can, doesn't mean you should!
Warning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. There are some in here who think I'm a hackmeister...they might be right! Of course, they might be wrong too!
I just purchased a student version of Chief Architect. Runs same as the full version. Only difference is that it prints out a faint watermark on all plans. If you are a student or have one in the family you may want to consider this route.
Chief is great for designing in 3D. I designed a Kitchen remodel and large rear addition on CA. I'm not an architect or designer, but I have some knowledge of design and wood framing basics.
I considered trying to do my own working drawings, but decided against it. I want the builder to do working plans from the design so that he is responsible for any mistakes made in the plans. Why would you want to take the liability off the builder and place it on yourself??
Mike K
Amateur Home Remodeler in Aurora, Illinois
Why would you want to take the liability off the builder and place it on yourself??
Great idea ... don't accept any responsibility ... I'm sorry, I thought you wanted it done the right way.
I can think of hundreds of ways that it would be impossible to take your design and redraw it to meet structural and code issues without changing it drastically.
been there
done that.Not picking on you personally. you may have fine designs, butit is not wise to recommend this asa generally good idea, because it is not. More likely to be an exercise in frustration for the HO and the builder.It puts the builder in the postion of having to inform the HO that his ideas such and that they cannot possible meet code and be built as drawn . No matter how tactful I do this, I feel uncomfortable being in that position.
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If all you want is an electronic pencil, get the cheapest thing you can find. As features increase, so does the cost. Are you concerned about accurate dimensions? If so, you need a whole plethora of features, such as precision input, snapping to various types of points, and automatic dimensioning. Then, there is the whole thing about text size and the scale of the drawing. How big does the text need to be on a 1/4" scale plan?
For those in document production, the 2D software is a waste of resources and money. If operating costs are a problem, you cannot afford NOT to have intelligent 3D CAD.
Let me give you some examples. With "smart" object software, such as Autodesk Architectural Desktop, a multi-component wall can be drawn with one click and a few keystrokes for length. Doors and windows can be inserted in the wall with automatic cleanup for the break in the wall lines. Elevations of the building, interior and exterior, as well as sections can be automatically generated. All schedules, such as door, window, room finish, room area, and wall area, are automatically generated and updated. These schedules can be exported to Excel to create a cost estimate, although there is third party software that automates that process. Drawing sets are set up, entering project information one time to appear on all sheets in the set. Drawing titles are automatically entered both on the drawings and the sheets. The question is, do you want to pay $3k+ for the software, or $20k+ per year for a drafter?
The act of an architect stamping a set of documents that are created by someone else is illegal in every state. The same goes for that engineer who stamped the documents for that individual. If you know of that happening you should report it to the state licensing board.
Sorry to sound so gruff, but those are the facts.
Hang on--how can it be illegal for an engineer to stamp a set of plans created by someone else? I regularly run house plans I design and "engineer" past a PE who checks that the design is safe and puts his stamp on it. Isn't that what engineers are for?
Mike
Check your state's licensing laws. That's what makes it illegal. Even if you are employed by the engineer, it is not enough that the engineer just "check the calcs."
I would prefer spending the 3k than the 20k. And the legal part I will cross that bridge when I get to it. Thats the least of my worries.
Yep. I use it all the time. I've had plans stamped, permited, and then built. I'm doing a 2100 sf and 3100 sf contract right now. A civil engineer reviews the plans and stamps them. I have to tile the 8.5x11 sheets to complete a plan since I don't have a plotter. I then take the plans to Kinko's to make large format copies. I use the 3D views quite a bit for my custom contracts. The owners want to have some concept of what a kitchen or room will look like as well as the elevations. The only limitations are those placed on myself due to my lack of diligence with the tutorials. When all else fails, I'll go back and read the instructions.............NOT! If I am ever really hassled about an architect's or engineer's stamp I'll have the plans redrawn but I've done the design work and plan to pay accordingly. So far, not an issue.
I bought Chief at the end of '04 to use as a tool for getting my designs into viewable form and tyurning them into plans. (I'm artistically challenged.) I stewed on the decision for a year ort so, until I talked with a retired local contractor. He started using Chief in about '97, and he said he won every bid he submitted when it was accompanied by Chief drawings. That was pretty much all I needed to hear.
There's alot to learn to get up to speed, but it's a whole lot simpler than, say, Photoshop.
Not only does 3D capacity help sell the job, but it reduces drasrticly the number of times a customer says, "That's not what I wanted, We need you to move that window and get rid of this wall..."reason being that about 85-90% of the population is 3D impaired. They cannot look at a floorplan drawing and visualize from it the actual construction.
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absolutely, paul... 3d has sold a lot of jobs for me..and conveyed exactly what we were going to do..
including those nasty step-ups and step-downsMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
I'm trying to make an example here. prospero is having a hard time accepting my 3D drawing file in btmp. I'll be right back
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One at a time. Attach button is sticky
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Trying one last gasp measure to get it up...Yep, there it goes. My original must have had some corruption in it. I simply openned it in irfanview, and resaved it to another location and it went along fine this time - fugh
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Another one that really impressed the snot out of the customer was where the house was almost right on the shore so I shot a photo to the water with a sailboat sliding by, and used that for background instead of plain colour or windows clouds standard. That way, when I saved the camera setting with that background, it was a shot of his living room looking out at what he was likely to see.
That one is in a CD someplace after saving from the other PCFor a new house on a lot, you can photio the site and place an exterior view of the 3D right on the lot. These each take only a few mouse clicks once the drawing is done and the pictures taken. I don't really uinderstand all the "Too much time..." Of course if I were to fiddle with the exact colours and textures, then yes, I would have had another day in each of these.
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There is no comparison for a 3D view for almost all clients. Before CAD, I have had clients who made substantial changes after construction was well under way simply because they could not read 2D drawings.
I have found that working in 3D (Autodesk Architectural Desktop) SAVES time, improves coordination, and enhances the entire process. Not only is the model viewable in 3D, but the software generates its own elevations, building sections, and wall sections. Details can be automatically notated in compliance with the National CAD Standard. Detail components can be selected from a list in the CSI format. How can that be slower than drawing it with an electronic pencil?
But the choice is yours. If all you want to do is draw "dumb" lines and circles, get the cheapest thing you can find. If you want to improve production and accuracy, buy as much as you can afford/borrow.