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Lots has been said here about foundations & slabs -- I'm curious about simple footer and stairs.
(1) A pro bono client would like brick stairs to his stoop -- I am simply ignorant how this is supported. Existing stairs were built on pt sleepers -- surprise, this doesn't work for long.
Basic sketch:
View Image
My thought was to build a U-shaped footer to frost line, bring it up to the sides and base of the stairs with concrete/rebar or CMUs, then cover with bricks or half-bricks. How is the footer connected to the stairs (I assume rebar is in here somewhere)? How is the center of the stairs supported? The concrete stairs I've seen have a smooth underside, like a sheet of plywood was used, hollow center & CMUs on each side.
(2) To support 5' wide wooden stairs to a masonry stoop (CMUs again), would i pour a 4"x8"x6' slab for the footer, reinforced with hardware cloth or welded-wire fabric? Fasten the ledger with ... expanding bolts?
Help! Totally out of my depth here. Yes, I've done run-of-the-mill u-mix Sakcrete concrete work, numerous postholes, footers, mini-slabs. Naturally, want to do it "right" without breaking my fragile back.
TIA TIA TIA :)
*Good afternoon Andrew,I'm a little confused here on your need to a) build such an elaborate footer, b) attaching it to the masonry stoop seven ways from sunday.If the stairs are founded on a reasonably drained pad of crushed stone, you can normally do this without a footer.Have you considered an inexpensive pre-cast stair for this project?To cast in place a base to accept the brick is one thing to build the entire stair out of brick is another.If you could focus on one part of your project and describe what the client wants as a finished look, maybe I could be more helpful.I gather this is a freebee.
*Freebie/practice for the real world.Sorry, by throwing everything out there it made it sounds like I'd be doing everything at once. just the way I tend to think. I shouldn't think out loud!The wooden stair attachment & pad detail is for a potential lucrative for-pay job, so if I can only glean one free answer from you please make it here. :)On the brick stair, finished look is that of solid brick. Substructure goal is simple and quick and cheap but competent. Existing substructure is loose dirt and composted wood. Virtually every concrete stair I've inspected around here has broken, moved independently of the house, or both, that's why I'm considering a real footer. Compacted crushed gravel base would be super (6"?) and I even know how to do it.
*Hi Andrew,No, you can get all the free answers you want from me, I thought your project was for free though.In order for frost to have a real effect on lifting anything, you must have moisture. If you are founded on a properly drained surface, you should be fine.As an added piece of mind, you can always put 1" SM under the stairs.You can cast in place the concrete for the masonry. Simply start by dropping the height of the first and last treads by the thickness of the brick. So if your bottom step is 8" high and the brick is 2" thick, cast the concrete 6" from the finished ground elevation. The top tread would then be 10" from the top of the finished stoop. Later, you set in the brick.Form the steps complete, add a slopped box on the inside, 8" from the sides and 6" back from the back of the tread to ensure proper integrity is maintained to minimize the concrete required. Put in 1/2" re-bars on both side, and 2" back and down along the treads and tie them into the side pieces with an overlap.Are we getting there Houston?
*One thing I'd add to the cast in place Gabe is talking about: fill the interior with compacted sand or DG less X inches from finished elevations. X = thickness of concrete slab @ treads + thickness of brick.
*Oh boy. This is like trying to read the newspaper bridge column. ("lead with a heart trick backflip double clink king's sow to South's triple frimble...")Ok, Houston, what I hear is no digging if water won't collect underneath. Or use 1" SM (whatsit?) ... I assume a compacted gravel bed on undisturbed earth would be appropriate.Now, the form -- I picture two pieces of plywood the tops cut like stringers, reinforced and connected together by, say, 2x6's to define the "risers". The slope of a wedge-shaped box inside is set about six inches behind the root of the tread, and 8" back from the sides of the outer form. Rich suggests filling the box with sand -- is the interior form just left inside to rot away? Or can the concrete be poured over the sand?The rebar in the "stringers" -- is it horiz. and vertical? The horizontal rebar running the width of the treads is wired to the stringer rebar. How far apart is the rebar spaced? Any point is using CMU's to save time, concrete or money?Wood is so much more ... forgiving.
*Hi Andrew,Didn't mean to confuse anyone.I'll take it in steps.The key element in my comments on the base for your steps was drainage. Simply installing compacted gravel will not give you drainage unless all the water that it would collect has an easy way out. Sometimes it requires a drain pipe connected to the house's weeping system or is of a higher elevation than the rest of the lawn.Crushed stone is better than gravel for this application.SM is rigid styrofoam insulation. By installing it under your poured concrete, it will also help to prevent frost damage and will allow the sun to melt off the ice better in winter.With regards to the forms. It's best to picture your steps as individual slabs of concrete, that are each shorter by 9 1/2" to the next and then stacking them to form the steps. You form them the same way. 2x8 work well and once stacked in place you install 2x4 pickets around the perimeter and nail the whole assembly together.You have a 6 ft wide step if I remember right, so you will require a blocking in the center of your front step face.With regards to the rebar, what you want it to do is, one on each side along the stringer about 2" from any outside face of the concrete. Another along each horizontal run of the steps, again about 2" back and down from the front tip of the treads.To overlap, you simply use longer pieces and bend 90's into it. If your step is 6' outside to outside, you use 7'-8" pieces of rebar and bend the first and last foot in a 90 degree bend to form a very wide U and then you tie the ends to the run along the stringers.You can use either a box out of wood on the inside to save concrete or do as Rich said and put sand in the middle, it's a lot cheaper than trying to fill the whole thing with extra concreteHope this helps,Gabe
*Think of it this way: you are building a footing--a very tall, multi-level form--but a footing nonetheless. This will then be faced with brick.Your forms would resemble a "U" when viewed from a bove. The concrete you will pour will be poured between the two walls of the forms. After the pour is cured enough, strip the inside form--or, if you used foam for inside form, leave in place--and fill cavity with compacted sand. Myself, I use 3/4" ply for forms.Your pour would be shy of final dimensions by one brick width on each side and riser, and one brick + concrete slab for treads.Rebar placement: every 8" horiz. from house to riser. Treads gets 2 @ 4" o.c. Wall placement: every 8". May be overbuild, but never a problem down the road for 15 years. Not even a hairline crack where normal pulling from house.HTH
*Andrew,Consider a proper footing/pad on a proper base. From there, build the stairs using regular concrete block, using sizes as required. Once done, face it with brick.I've seen it done both this way and as the previous poster's described.
*Thanks Mongo, that is what I originally thought -- probably overkill for this mild VA climate but I do know I've seen it done here. Can I/should I build up from the footer to grade with concrete block or solid concrete?Last stupid Q for the cast-in-place crowd (Gabe & Rich) -- um how do you strip a form that is encased in concrete? (These steps go against an existing structure.)
*Hi Andrew,Leave out the back portion of the form. Press the assembly against the stoop or overlap the sides of the stoop.Once you strip the forms, within 24 hours, scrape the fins off and rub the surface smooth.Gabe
*INTERIOR forms, Gabe. Send in the termites?
*Hi Andrew,In my last tread, I indicated that there was no form between the concrete and the stoop. The only form would be underneath the steps if you used the sloping box form and that would also be eliminated if you used Rich's comment to use a sand fill instead. Neither would be visible from outside.I don't have any termites to send. Saw something neat though in Florida a couple of weeks ago. A work bench inside a garage had a 2x4 framed work bench in the corner. Was nicely painted white. Went to move something underneath and when I tried to support myself on one of the 2x4 braces it disintegrated in my hands. The entire piece was hollow. Only the paint was left from the termites.Never saw anything like it back home. Those little bastards are something else.So like I said, I don't have any to send you and I wouldn't wish them on anyone.Gabe
*Ah yes, it is the fate of the sloping (or stepped?) underside box form about which I inquired. Like the sand idea. i may go with concrete block as it will mean less weight to haul around (don't have one of those testosterone-drunk pickups yet).Thank you for your generous advice.In Florida, code now requires 10 mm epoxy paint to help the houses stay up a little longer than crummy framers and hungry termites permit.
*Does borax work against termites? They aren't a problem around here (knock on solid wood). Whenever I do any around-the-foundation earth maneuvering, I usually sprinkle in some borax with the disturbed earth. We have ants-o-plenty, but that's about it.Re: previous post, build up from the footing with hollow core blocks. They don't have to be placed tight side-by-side, just close enough (a few inches separation) so the next course can bridge the gap with sufficient support. Tough to expound on not knowing the design.Best of luck!
*Expounded plenty. Don't know about the boric acid, though i assume yes since it seems enough to protect cellulose insulation. But termites spend most of their time in the wood, perhaps it would have to be impregnated with the stuff to be effective.
*If you plan to order a concrete truck you may want to forget the interior form. Around here, we need to order 4 yards minimum, so you'll end up with alot of waste, or fill it solid. My stoop on my barn is a 4 x 4 x 3' deep block of concrete. I pity the guy that will have to remove that. It will probably be me though 8-).-Rob
*How much does that sucker weigh? Will it subside at some point? You may be inviting Blue and his sledgehammer over some day.
*Sand - 90 pcfConcrete - 120 pcfMy stoop would be 5760#. A little bit above the "usual" value of 200 psf for subsoils, but it ain't moved yet! Still slopes at 1/8" per foot.-Rob