Hi All,
I recently had a situation with a $500 Makita LS 1040 saw that was damaged on a job by a co-worker. While the exact circumstances are a mystery they responsibility falls squarely on one persons shoulders.
I didn’t notice the damage till a few weeks after the fact and had to call up and ask for repair. I reminded them of the “you break it you bought it” policy under which it was loaned but they denied having any knowledge of the damage yet swore they were the only ones who used it. Furthermore the nature of the damge would have scared the heck out of anyone (cut through the fence by not adjusting for a bevel cut) so I doubt a kid would have had the presence of mind to do it and try to hide it. They didn’t have the $500 for buying the saw from me.
Anyway..They ordered the fence to come next day from Makita which arrived minus subfence and bought a new but not the same blade. But deny causing the damage
I felt bad I had to call them on it but it was a no doubter.
How do you handle this sort of thing? Everytime I’ve cut a cord or sawed through a nail I’ve paid for the new part, no questions. Yet when it’s been done to me I get BS and complaints.
Who’s right? Should I start walking away from my damages calling them acts of God or wear and tear. Or my second choice which is pay for my mistakes and have the co-worker who doesn’t want to invest “get your own hammer a-hole!”.
Wh
Replies
Generally, as a principal of law, the "you break it, you bought it" is unenforceable by itself. You as an individual have no more power over others and their business dealings than a complete stranger to the situation. The only way to seek to recover monetary damages is to commence a lawsuit in which you seek to recover the cost of the equipment or the repair costs. However, a suit brought in law is based upon evidence, not supposition. Simply alleging that it must have happened a certain way is generally a weak argument because it leaves itself open to criticism by the defendants who can argue that, in fact, another factual scenario could have caused the damage. Establishing any credible doubt will generally defeat the claim. And leave bad feelings all around.
Perhaps, of a more important consideration, will be your perceived treatment of your crew. How available is good labor that you can trust in your area - can you afford to be coarse in your dealings with your employees or is some degree of temperance needed. Sure accidents happen and human nature is to avoid responsibility for their occurrence. Maybe a soul searching sitdown discussion over some beer is required rather than castigations and recriminations. Explaining the financial facts of business life to your crew might go a longer way to making them more fiscally responsible to you than all the yelling and screaming with recriminations laid at their feet. Who knows, they might come away with a new appreciation that since the boss cares about me, I gotta care more about the boss. Good luck.
Griff
Let's see.
One of the guy's working for me broke my Skill saw, another broke my Hammer drill.
None offered to repair it.
I broke a worker's Sawsall and gave him mine to use till his was fixed.
He refused my offer to pay for the repair, said it could have broken the same way when he was using it.
Having had employee's breaking my tools over the years, I've given up expecting them to pay.
Now I know why some don't loan tools and others require an employee to own and use his own.
Each person to his own.
I just don't feel right, I break it, I fix it.
Jeff
dont loan tools with moving parts.
I have some fine chisles and screwdrivers with no moving parts that I would not loan.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
good point, the tools i had in my mind were like sledge hammer , shovel, etc---
If they need to borrow more than once, they need to make the purchase.
>> If they need to borrow more than once, they need to make the purchase.
Yeah, but how can they do that when they're spending all their disposable income on ganja? ;)
what is ganja?
Cannabis.
no potheads on my jobs, they are way too stupid, that is why they call it dope.
>> no potheads on my jobs ...
That you know of.
reefer, weed, pot, etc....
even those are easy to break or lose in the ditch
don't get me wrong, I loan or rent some tools but only to guys who are like me about taking care of them and who also loan to me. i've had to buy a couple parts for others tools.
but more often than not, the ones who NEED to borrow - it is because they can't keep a hammer without losing or breaking it.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
I have some fine chisles and screwdrivers with no moving parts that I would not loan.
Chisle.....screwdriver....same thing!
YOU are the one I wouldn't loan them to.
;)
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
So you are saying that a chisel and a screwdriver AREN'T the same thing!! LOLOLOL
I know what you are saying. The one exception to the "no tool loan" policy is with my wife. Yep... you guessed it... she needed a flat-head screwdriver... went to shop... found what looked like a screwdriver, though it was "really sharp".... used my 1/2" chisel for a screwdriver.
Needless to say, I have since taken the wife through the shop to explain what the tools are !!
I have some fine chisles and screwdrivers
Aren't Chisles and screwdrivers the same tool???
If that joke gets one more replay, I'm going to claim that there is no such thing as a screwdriver - that tool will be renamed the piffinpole
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
chisels and screwdrivers aren't at all the same. Would you use a chisel to knock a retaining pin out of a tool? of course not , it's too big - use a screwdriver on the pin and save the chisel for cleaning concrete off the wheelbarrow.
Or scraping floors or getting up vynal tiles..
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming
WOW!!! What a Ride!
IMERC, with all your tool degrees, i can't figure out why you don't have a floor scraper or a vynal tile getter upper. Budget tight or that kind of work out of your pay grade?
;)
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
FWIW I got 'em..
But when somebuddy grabs your 2" Williams chisel or 1,5" Sorby corner chisel and does just that with them, more than once, I figured I had it all wrong in with what I was doing with them... That is their real mission in life...
Ya know that 2"er makes an excellent splitting wedge, especially when you beat the snot out of it driving it with a 32oz waffle face..
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming
WOW!!! What a Ride!
Sorry, but I don't think anyone here wants to borrow the "piffinpole".
Things getting lonely up there on the island?
EDIT: This, of course, was meant as a joke. Perhaps a poor one. First day back from vacation :)
Edited 9/8/2004 6:06 pm ET by RickD
Griff,
Well I don't think I would pursue this matter in the courts. It's always been a matter of fact in my experiences.
Also I'm not the boss, the perptrator would be considered the boss. I have a sizable investment in tools to make myself my valuable to a contractor. This "contractor" prefers to use the cheapest available and not enough.
This actually a perfect isllustration of my favorite saying:
"No good deed goes unpunished"
This happened on a job I was performing for free when not being informed it would be non paying till I arrived and rolled out. I saw they were under it and I figured the good will would come back in positive ways.
Including the damageto the saw there were other issues including missing tools.
I was lucky they paid for part of the fix.
Wh
i can't imagine something like this would ever actually go to court but if it did, ther would be no need to prove absolutely how it happened, only that it is more resonable to believe that the borrower damaged it than that he did not. Circumstantial evidence does fit this glove.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Tough call in business....got to size up each indivual case...if the guy's a boob chances are you're gonna get stuck with some cost when associating with him.
Years ago I borrowed a sawsall from a neighbor tradesman....while I was using it over a couple of weeks for demo, it became sluggish, mostly due to dirt/drywall dust...etc.
It was working when I was done...but just didn't seem right...so I sent it manf for a complete rebuild/recondition...added a new pack of blades and returned it.
Next time I needed that tool, I bought my own. (whadda good boy am I?)
"Neither a borrower or a lender be." WS
Last April I had two guys working for me who were hard on tools and materials. When one of them dropped my $230 Stabila plate level and put a dent in the frame, I was not told. Normally I don't let folks use that level. I baby it. Anyway, later that day I saw the dent and asked who had dropped it. Neither one admitted it. I said a few choice words and took the level away. The next day one of the guys cut the cord on my new Bosch worm drive saw, which had been out of the box for about an hour. He cursed for ten minutes, in effect costing me again in the time that he spent on the subject. I would have expected him to continue working with another saw and to offer to pay for the damages. I was the one who should have been cursing. Several other things happened that week. In one case, I had precut all the headers on the second floor and the guy who cut the cord chose to cut two of them again to build two closets. When I discovered the problem, I had him take the closets apart and rebuild. This resulted in more cursing and a temper tantrum which I was also paying for. Ten minutes is not much, but when I am paying for something that I do not want for ten minutes, I don't like it. When I asked him why he had cut the headers shorter, he was not able to explain. My suspicion is that some folks smoke too much marijuana and then come to the job with an inability to function with a clear mind. They go through the motions, but there is no real continuity of thought. On Friday, I paid them and told them both their services were no longer needed. My blood pressure went down and I enjoyed building the rest of the house by myself with the peace that surpasses all understanding. I spent nearly four days fixing what they had screwed up while I was not closely supervising them. I didn't care too much because it was costing me nothing but time, I love what I do, and because I was getting it right. Since then, I have worked alone and am making a lot more money. I have eliminated frustration and most waste.
Good post but please hit return (enter) every five lines or so for readability:-).
Edited 9/6/2004 2:17 pm ET by RASCONC
I don't agree wiht less. If his philosohpy was correct, Bill Gates would still be working out of his garage, ditto for GE, Motorola, etc.
Does K-Mart, Wendy's, Sears and other close stores due to shinkage my employees? Do any of us stop swinging a hammer becausewe occasionally hit a finger with it?
Things happen, not onlyu in business, but in live as well, and it matters not if they happen accidentally of from abusive and unconsciouse employees. With even only one employee and doing about $250,000 in annual sales, a .5% as on 1/2 of one percent added to the overhead covers this issue, therefore eliminates the frustrations, cursing, etc.
Control what you can control, not by shriking one's business, but instead, by implementing standard " good financial business practices." Sh*t happens. Plan for it and address it - properly.
I was not actually agreeing, just pointing out the art of the paragraph and trying to be nice.
I think his points are good though. I have a neighbor who has downsized his business, feels he makes more money and less stress. Another HS classmate/business owner had the same feling. My son who has a tree and irrigation business has hit the same level that he is happier with fewer employees.
Granted if all went that way there would be no Wal-Marts, HD's, other big businesses. Wait, that may be a good thing. :-)
Edited 9/6/2004 3:25 pm ET by RASCONC
Edited 9/6/2004 3:25 pm ET by RASCONC
Well, I guess that's why some people prefer to own a "practice" while others prefer to own a "business, with all it's irratants.
There are three things I never loan out, my tools, my truck and my wife. Although not necessarily in that order.
mike
lol to that.
I have one guy that is hard on my tools but then again so am I. The way I see it it's all part of the job. I just don't give him the brand new stuff, that's for me to tear up.
Whenever someone loans me something and tells me to treat it as if it's my own, I tell them you don't want me to do that, you want me to treat it as if it's yours. It works out alot better that way. :-)
Dave
You said he was a coworker. If this is the case, maybe you should be taking up the issue with the boss.
I don't think employees should be responsible for damage or mistakes that happen throughout the course of a job. If a cord is cut, header cut short, or fence damaged, the boss is responsible. Employees are not paid to be financially responsible for their mistakes.
If an employee frequently makes the mistakes that are a problem, you should give him the opportunity to work for your competition.
Jon Blakemore
Sounds like you should have learned a tough lesson. Why are you bringing your expensive power tools to work? Let the boss supply such items. If he does'nt then make do with whatever he provides. If productivity falls off he will be forced to buy better equiptment. If you provide the equiptment then he never will.
When I worked as a union carpenter we were absolutely not allowed to bring a power tool on the job. The theory was it gave you an unfair advantage over the guy on the bench who was'nt supplying the contractor with his power tools.
Until recently, I worked with a guy who was "hard" on his tools and even harder on mine. One day I brought my Festool jigsaw to work, an hour later I see "Petey" try to force cut a 1/2" radius in 3/4" ply with a general purpose blade.
The saw was making some very bad sounds, I pulled the plug and he looked at me "WTF?" I told him if he planned on continuing he should take a picture of the saw "?"... so he could show the Dr. what he was looking for. He left for the rest of the day.
He used to pull this kind of passive/aggressive bull$hit about twice a month until I finally told my boss I wasn't going to work with Petey anymore. He's gone, I got a raise.
Sounds like you work with some low rent dudes, tell them they can rent tools cheap at Home Depot, yours only come with operator attatched.
The awful thing is that beauty is mysterious as well as terrible. God and the devil are fighting there, and the battlefield is the heart of man.- Fyodor Dostoyevski
Wow! Can I relate to you! My Partner owns almost all the same tools I own yet his all look brand new(when I get the chance to see them). Seems its easier to just go to my truck and use my tools than actually bring his own. If I run out of Paslode gas his comment is "I have some at home i'll sell you". Sounds great, use my tool all week then charge me for the gas YOU USED. I also get the blow up and go home thing from this guy too. He had the H.O. driveway looking quite like an ashtray(butts everywhere) when I told him to clean it up he broomed them all into the garage then told me he had to leave or he was going to "light me up". Are there any good people out there?
MSA1
I'd have to take that comment of his, "light me up". as a challange! If he thought things were bad enough for him to go home in a tissy because of what you said I'd have to lay it on even more the next day.
I dont mind anybody using my tools but if your going to abuse them better get used to a bit of abuse from me as well.
I do like the mental challanges though, I wouldnt let those slip by!
Doug
This is an education, youve learned what loaning out tools can do. I only hope that you pay attention and decide its NOT WORTH LOANING OUT TOOLS.
Since I am an owner... my tools get "loaned" to my guys all the time. It was a "cost of doing business" if mine got broken, cord cut, etc.... until I put in a profit sharing and started charging replacement cost for broken tools in the profit equation if the damage was do to negligence. AMAZING how quickly the guys started respecting my tools (and peer pressure on each other was also high) !! LOL
If I go out on a job where I am working solo... simple rule ... no loan of tools.. period. I will help a guy out, as long as he is willing to help me when I need it. Example, I will cut some blocking for a plumber if he is willing to lend a hand when I am in a bind and need an extra hand. If I need a pipe wrench and don't have one with me... I get the pipe wrench and the plumber !! If he needs a circ saw... he gets the circ saw AND the carp!!
My guys will loan tools to each other (though I discourage it). They have an unwritten code among themselves though... "you breaka my toola... I breaka you face AFTER you pay for a new one (not a replacement... a NEW one)". These guys are butchers with each other (which I DO encourage) when it comes to "honor". They know how much they had to save and sweat to buy their tools... and they know that their job depends on them having tools that are not broken and in full working order.
Maybe it's skill (doubt it)... maybe it's luck (most likely)... but I have yet to have to step in and referee a tool dispute. Of course, maybe it's because I have made it very clear that if they cannot work it out for themselves... NEITHER of them will be happy with my decision.
hey what...
seems as though you are talking about a "fellow worker"..
he should fix it..
however.. if it was my job.. and your tool got broken by another one of my workers, i'd have the tool fixed..
like sonny says.. it's all part of the cost of doing business.. we always have tools in for repairs.. they're tools.. they break and wear out.. some faster than others..
if you think it may get broken and you wll be out the cost of repairs because of how things work in your company... then either don't loan out the tool or suffer the consequences..
i like " rich from columbus" method of operation.. although it's one level of formality above our organization..
i give gift certificates for the tool store.. ( Quaker Lane).. so the guys can get that "special " tool they want..
but really ... other than skill saws and levels.. i provide all the tools we need .. and a lot we don't need..
your company should have a policy about wether or not you provide tools, and who pays for their repair
Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore