I am designing a coffered ceiling for my 2 story foyer and need some opinions. I’ve come up with three different scenarios, and they all appear to be fine on paper, but I’m not too sure how it will look once it is actually built. As you will see in the first drawing, the room is 83.5″ x 125.5″, and as viewed in the drawing, on the left is a stairway to the 2nd level.
My first question, are there any rules of thumb to consider when planning the layout? Is this room too small to consider the first two options (ie are the boxed openings too small)? In all of the pictures I’ve seen of coffered ceilings, the rooms have been much larger then mine, so the beams are spaced farther apart. My only concern for the third drawing is I have a ceiling fan that is in the center of the room and I don’t really want to have to remount it to the beam.
Another option I am considering is just running all of the beams parallel to each other. Would this be a better option for this size of room?
I plan on building these the “Gary Katz way”, or a version of it anyway. Materials will be determined once I have a design I am confident I will like, but I am contemplating stain grade beams and white beadboard on the ceiling.
Also, sorry the drawings are so big. I tried to resize them, but was unsuccessful.
MikeJ
Replies
Anyone?
Can you get a better picture? I can't fit that all on one page without scrolling back and forth. By then I have no idea what I am looking at.
When people don't know what you're about, They put you down and shut you out.
right click the attachment and use open them in a new window..Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
I'm on it, I'll see if it works. When people don't know what you're about, They put you down and shut you out.
My mozilla browser has a preference or option to set up so it displays oversized pictures to fit screen then I can toggle to the full size when I want to
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Yep. The pics are too big. A center mark would be good too.
Best to you and yours, Chris.
Some say I know too much? Can you ever?
I'll take a stab at this just to keep your post fresh so others can respond:
9 feet (plus or minus a couple inches) by ten feet (ditto) is kind of small for a coffered ceiling, IMO. I would either use a smaller grid so there are more "coffers" to make the ceiling look bigger, or I would consider going with something like a pressed tin ceiling. The tin ceilings sometimes have a pattern of like 1 foot squares and I would think that would look pretty nice. (May even be available in a diagonal pattern of squares (diamonds) that would help make the room look bigger.) Also, the coffers wouldn't be deep, which on a small ceiling may also look weird. Just my two cents worth. Van Dyke's perobably has pressed tin. So may Outwaters.
This sounds more like a hallway than a room and it really is too small for coffered.
What ceiling height?
Waht trim style rest of room and house?
Why wanting Coffered?
What lighting planned for this room?
What is the Katz style?
I know Gary and might guess but I missed the link...
Welcome to the
Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime.
where ...
Excellence is its own reward!
Thanks for your responses everyone. I know the pictures are too big so it is hard to tell the layout, but the ceiling area that I am dealing with is 83.5" x 125.5" and is about 18' high. The ceiling continues into a stairway leading to the 2nd floor and is about 37" wide, but I just plan on having crown molding in that area.
I have a ceiling fan with a light that is centered in the foyer area. Trim is basic oak princeton 2.25" casing and 3" base, which I absolutely hate, but that seems to be the only thing builders know how to use up here. I have plans of replacing it, but that will be another post.
Here's a link to the article Gary K did on coffered ceilings: http://www.jlconline.com/cgi-bin/jlconline.storefront/45ec1ecf00116ade27177f00000105c7/UserTemplate/82?c=f43708085a8ed401b125d693af5de8c9&p=1 . He had a similar article in FHB, but the JLC article goes more in-depth.
The responses seem to confirm what I was fearing and the room is probably too small to be coffered. So now I am leaning towards just a couple of false beams or doing built up crown. Thanks.
MikeJ
Edited 3/6/2007 10:28 am ET by MikeJ
Mike
I'm working in a house right now that has coffered ceilings all over the house. There are coffers in areas much smaller then the size you have mentioned so I think its doable and designed right can look good.
I'm in the shop this week working on the coffered ceilings for a theater room, it has 16 coffered boxes with all but four of them curved.
If people didnt look up to those high ceilings they wouldnt put them there!
Doug
Edited 3/5/2007 9:56 pm ET by DougU
Doug,
I've seen some of the pics you've posted and I think the work you do is outstanding. If you have time, you should do a running thread on the job you are working on now to show the progress from start to finish. If not, at least post some pics when it's done. I'm sure I'm not the only one who would like to see 'em.
In those smaller rooms, what size are the beams, and how far are they spaced apart? I guess my biggest reason for posting this is I am looking for some guidelines or rules-of-thumb to follow when designing this.
Since my ceiling is so high, I plan on using 1x6 stock for the sides and either 1x6 or 1x8 for the bottom. The crown will either be 3 1/2" or 4 1/2".
I agree with you about people looking at the high ceilings. If there is nothing up there, they will look at it and probably not think too much of it, but if you put something up there to really draw their attention to it, they will look at it and think "wow that's cool". At least that is what I am hoping for.
Mike
Mike
This ceiling is 30 feet up in a room with a relatively small (relative to the 30) footprint?Who dreamed that up?Tell us the name of the architect involved, and we'll see to it that he loses his AIA certification! ;-)
Where did you see 30 feet mentioned? The ceiling is about 18' high.
Mike
I have some progress pictures of the den in the house were working on but I've been waiting for the finish to be done so that I have final shots.
I'm working in the shop now on some coffers and I can get some shots of how we do it. I'm not found of the way Katz does his but to each his own.
We build all our boxes on the table, crown already installed, makes for a much easier job.
I dont know that we change beam sizes from room to room as much as you'd think. Of course in this house small bedrooms are 18' X 16' so size is relative!
I'll look for size of beams tomarrow, dont recall right off the top of my head.
Do you have any crown in the house now? If so I'd try to keep it the same style but 3 1/2" crown 18' in the air will appear small. Is there any distinct style going on now or is what your planning going to set the tone?
EDIT; I just thought of this, you never mentioned that you wanted to install crown up in the boxes, I just assume it cause thats what we do on about all of our coffered ceilings. I need to go back and reread and see if you mentioned it.
Doug
Edited 3/7/2007 7:13 am ET by DougU
Doug,
Yes I will be installing crown up in the boxes, but I am no sure on the width yet. I plan on doing some mock-ups to see what will work best.
I'm not found of the way Katz does his but to each his own.
I just plan on borrowing some of his ideas. What I actually plan on doing is making U-shaped framing out of plywood, but instead of making them only 18"-24" long, mine will be continuous so I won't have to worry if they fall on a joist or not. The main beams will run the short width of the room. I plan on making the secondary beams about an 1" or so shorter so they will just butt into the main beams. This is all preliminary planning of course.
We build all our boxes on the table, crown already installed, makes for a much easier job.
I am really interested in seeing how you do this. I am guessing that you must put up some type of framing, attach the beam bottom, and then install the preassembled boxes to complete the install. Am I close?
Mike
Mike
This is the best I can come up with tonight so bare with me.
We build boxes in the shop - in this particular case I spent a couple days in the shop building these boxes, then they were finished for sake of ease down the road. You'll notice that everything isn't finished because there is some sanding of joints in and so forth that doesn't allow finishing everything.
the layout
View Image
Sammy's, we screw these to the ceiling so we can hang the boxes off of them. The small piece of angle iron with the hole in it is screwed to the side of the box and a piece of all thread is screwed into the Sammy and drops down through the angle iron, this allows us the ability to adjust for level.
View Image
We start hanging the boxes.
View Image
Once all the boxes are installed we level them and start with the infill. You'll see the 3/4" X 3/4" cleet attached to the side of the box, this is to nail the infill up. Its held up 3/4" so that when the infill is installed its flush with the bottom edge of the box.
View Image
Once the infill is complete we istall a small piece of trim to hide the joint between the boxes and the infill.
View Image
Close up of the trim detail
View Image
In this case there was a plan to install coffered ceilings from the get-go so there is 3/4 ply installed directly to the joists followed by sheet rock so we don't have to go looking for something to screw to. This isn't always the case and its not any more difficult to install to a situation like yours you just have to spend a little time locating all the joist and laying that out.
We would snap lines for all joists in say red chalk and then come back with blue chalk to indicate our boxes, makes it easy to see where to screw the Sammy's in.
I didnt show any pics of the machine that we rented to hold the boxes up while hanging them. Just a simple lift from the rental place. On other rooms where the boxes dont weigh all that much we will just have one guy hold them up while the other guy puts the all thread into the sammy's. All depends on the weight of the boxes.
The finish was just completed this week and I'm in the shop making the next set of coffers so I dont have a final pic yet - will be back out next week and I'll shot one.
Doug
Edited 3/8/2007 1:13 am ET by DougU
Doug,
Now that looks like a slick system. Where do you get Sammy's from? Do you use anything like splines or biscuits where the infill intersects?
The dimensions of the beams are about what I am looking for. Are you using 1x8 for the sides and 1x6 for the infill and 4" crown?
I appreciate you taking the time to share your techniques, and everyone else for their offerings as well. Thanks.
And keep the pics coming.
MikeJ
Doug,
I just did a search for Sammys and it looks like I can get them from Fastenal. So do you make the angled brackets or are they premade?
Mike
Mike
The angle brackets are just cut from a long piece of angle iron.
If you chose to use the angle brackets you want to make sure that the holes are all oriented in the same place. Just makes for easy install.
Next Monday I start on the most complex coffered ceilings that I've ever done. I'll have to get some pics for ya.
Doug
Doug,
Definitely keep the pics coming. I never get enough of this stuff.
Mike
Hey, Doug, does the boxes-hung-with-Sammys method give you enough flexibility to move things slightly when installing the faceboards to the cleats, so that no taper-rips are needed?
Oops! I think I see the answer. The trim molding covers all sins, so who cares about a gap here and there. Only the end butts are critical.
Nice arrangement. Did you dream it up? The boxes . . . are the tops and sides all from veneer-core plywood?
And all those inside 45s for the crown. Yuk! Or are they copes? I'm not patient enough for work like that!
Gene
We have a bit of movement for the infill but as you already noticed we don't have to be dead on.
veneer MDF, makes for a nicer job, everything lays flat. Its hard to find ply that doesn't have slight twists in it and that makes the job problematic.
This method isn't my idea, my bosses. When we get to the site though the directions go out the window!
The boxes are made on a bench - that allows you to gang cut all the crown, all mitered. Our box parts are cut out on a CNC so there isn't a problem with slight inconsistencies, all sides are equal lengths. I built the boxes and crowned them out in two days - complete.
I'm working on a coffered ceiling for a theater room that has 16 boxes, almost all of them have curved crown in them. I had to cope the crown in them though because its to hard to fit the curved portion of the crown to a miter.
I live for this stuff
Doug
Ahhhh. Curved crown and mitering. The miters are curved, too.
That is something I can sink my teeth into. I love curved work.
The miters are curved, too.
So you understand why I coped them.
Doug
I have a ceiling fan with a light that is centered in the foyer area.
Fan in that location can be a difficult thing to cope with. At 18' up, it adds complexity to the lighting design as well (especially since any light fixture above gets "strobed" when the fan is on, and anything underneath that is also adjustable tends to be less, well, eye-worthy, and it's where everyone will look at it, once).
You might could still "coffer" this ceiling, you just might need to limit the "how much."
Probably a pattern of nine "squares" will work. Using a center "module" that is not equal to the ones on either side in either direction is probably a good idea, too. (I'm thinking that I'd start with a 42-48" O.C. center square and sketch from there.)
If you then used, oh, a couple of 2x6 to make the 'beams' of the coffers, then "picture framed" around them with a 4" crown mould, that'd likely work, especially in paint-grade.
That's just one way, though; there are others.Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
We actually found a really nice ceiling fan and the light ficture is below the fan so no strobe effect.
Probably a pattern of nine "squares" will work. Using a center "module" that is not equal to the ones on either side in either direction is probably a good idea, too. (I'm thinking that I'd start with a 42-48" O.C. center square and sketch from there.)
That statement answers one of my original questions. If you are able to view the drawings I posted, you will see in one version I have the center "squares" at about 37"x37" and the outside "squares" at 16"x37".
What I am trying to find out is this traditionally acceptable? In the end all that really matters is if my wife and I are happy with the end result, but I would like to follow any traditional design principals to keep it true to its form.
all that really matters is if my wife and I are happy with the end result
Which is all that really matters.
Sadly, all my tuits are non-circular, so I'm not going to dash off a sketch here soon. Will see how later fares, though.Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
If you really want to do the coffered ceiling, you might want to think about how your light fixture(s) are going to fit in with the design.
Frankly, in a narrow, two-story space, no one's gonna look at the ceiling twice, except when descending the staircase. I'd worry most about the appearance from near the top of the staircase.
Hey Mike,
I just completed a coffered ceiling about two weeks ago. The room is about 11.5 ft. x15.5ft., 8-0ft. high. 2.25in. casing(molded-ranch)and, 3in. base, center light fixture, radiuses window centered on long wall.
I to was concerned about the sizing, and finally settled on 2-0ft.x2-0ft. approx.. 5 beams(6 spaces)X6 beams(7 spaces). I was able to remount the light fixture on the new beam with out a problem.
The beams are 3in.x3in., crown is 2 3/4in. All painted.
Presumptions specific to my job, eight foot ceiling height, so scale of components could /should be smaller, a coffered ceiling should be busy in order to draw attention to itself.
I was happy with the way it turned out and the only change I might have made was to use a larger crown. Maybe a 3 1/2in., but that may have looked to heavy. I will never know!
You may want bigger, heavier beams(4in.-4 1/2in.) and a 5 1/2in. crown. Two beams, three spaces X three beams, four spaces,with a rim board around perimeter(maybe an inverted 5 1/2in. molded base board).
I was not that impressed by Katz's installation techniques. But I'm sure that is because I read his article on ''HOW TO HANG A DOOR'',he he heee what a joke.
Good luck,
DAVE
Dave,
Do you have any pics that you can post? What type of framing did you use?
Mike
Hey Mike,
I guess, I'm almost embarrassed to say I don't have a digital camera or the knowledge to post the pictures. I wish I did and some day I will, but for now I can't.
On my project, I had to cover up a textured ceiling, so I started by sanding the ceiling and installing some 1/4 in. birch plywood, putting the seams under a beam location. Then I primed, sanded, cleaned, painted, sanded, cleaned the ply.
Next I laid out my beam centers around the perimeter of the room. This requires a little math and a calculator.
Get your individual wall lengths, subtract the number of finished beam widths and the rim X two.
Divide by the number of spaces your design creates (one more space than beams).
This gives you your finished size of the coffer area, for that wall. Do all four walls, chances are they will be a little different, that is O.K. (1/8-1/4 max.).
Find the center of each wall and work out to the corners. Depending on if you are starting with a beam on center or a coffered area on center, do the math and lay out the wall marking the beam center and the edge of the material that will be used for nailing the beam up to. You could take a small piece of scrap and layout your marks on that and transfer as needed.
Sounds confusing, In the room I did, one of the walls was 11 ft.-5 1/2 in.(137 1/2 in.) with 5 beams -6 spaces. The rim is 3/4 in. thick, the beams are 3 in. X 3 in. (beam side 1/2 in.thick) so........
137 1/2-15(3x5)=122 1/2
122 1/2-1 1/2(2x3/4)=121
121 divided by=20 3/16 in+- so.....
20 3/16 in. is the finished coffered size
1/2 the beam + 20 3/16 +1/2 the beam=23 3/16 or the beam centers.
I ripped 2X material 2 in. wide to nail my beams to . So I marked my centers added or subtracted 1 in. depending on what side of the center line I wanted to mark or mark both sides just to keep from getting confused.
Once everything is marked out , snap chalk lines for all the beam nailers.
Install the rim trim.
Install the nailers that are perpendicular to the ceiling joists.
Install the beam sides to those nailers. Next install the rest of the nailers, glue, screw, toenail, whatever you think best.
Install the sides to those nailers.
I used 1/2 in. MDF for the sides and 3/4 in.MDF for the bottom (with a 1/2X1/2 rabbet). The sides are 2 3/4, the bottom 3. All had been primed and one coat of paint, sanded and cleaned.
Take care to line up the pieces(sides) when installing so that when the bottoms are put on they are in plane.
Glue in the rabbet and a couple of pins and you are good to go, if you milled the rabbet correctly the joint is inconspicuous. Even the brads tend to pucker the MDF so sand as you go. Nail up the bottoms to the thru beams first and then fill in.
Now the crown, I usually cope inside crown corners, except for prefinished cabinet trim and coffered ceilings. And if you don't have Collin's clamps, spring clamps or them doohickey things I'm not sure you can do it this way.
Measure all the openings, orient them so you can put them together front, back, left, right, up side down etc. ,etc.. The measurements should all be close and you might be able to cut them all the same, probably not, but you need to be able to put them together the way they need to go.
Measure to the nearest 1/16, cut 1/8 smaller, miter cut the pieces, glue and use the spring clamps to hold the four pieces together, let the squares set up, then come back and use a brad pinner from the back side to reinforce the joint.
Install the squares, pin into place, caulk as required, sand anything that needs it, spot prime anything, paint anything that needs painting, sand , clean, give everything a final coat.
With two people this goes quickly.
GOOD LUCK !
DAVE
The new issue of JLC has an article by gary streigler on a "beadmed ceiling". Might give you some ideas.
A great place for Information, Comraderie, and a sucker punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
http://www.quittintime.com/
I think I finally got the pics resized so they are easier to see, except for the fact that these are scans so some of the lines are faded, but you still should be able to figure them out easier than before.
Mike