I just got back from a meeting with my car mechanic who is looking to get out from under the shade tree and into a real commercial property. The building he is looking at is a little dilapidated and otherwise needs a fair amount of work to be useful to him but the price and terms of sale are quite tempting to him assuming the start-up cost is decent.
As a residential remodeler, I don’t know much about commercial code and practice, but as his friend he wants me to be as involved as possible. I am assuming the building will be a total gut out, leaving the block walls, adding new trusses that gain him the height he needs, insulating the block to minimum standards and installing minimum electrical.
The building is 72′ x 44′ on one acre in a small village; asking price $60K with extra low payments during construction period.
Are there any codes or concerns I should be aware of when dealing with building/remodding a commercial mechanic shop?
What are the standards of insulation and interior finish for the block walls?
What is the best and/or most economical truss systems to gain 4′ of head room in the garage? Block walls are currently 11′ tall with pilasters every 10′ carrying heavy 4:12 wood trusses. He needs a minimum area of 20′ x 12′ x 15′ for each of his lifts. I was thinking of coffer trusses but I have never seen them span 44 foot; not to mention I am not aware of how much they cost in comparison to other truss types.
Any helpful info would be greatly appreciated.
DC
Replies
i have the exact same bldg i think. needs the clg raised for a mechanic. problem is in commercial i have to have a paraphet wall .
my thought was strip the roof and rafters,then go on top of my existing paraphet walls and sit new trusses with a vaulted clg to get the clearrance i need.
city says no go,i have to have a parphet wall 30" above the edge of my roof all around 4 sides. now this bldg does set closaer than 10' to property line which does affect it.
3000 sq ft for 60k sounds good though.
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Do you have an architect you know & use? the investment will be well worth the money plus you may not have choice anyway. In Ohio you can't design a commercial building unless you have an engineer or architects stamp. Consider also the liability due to design faults (including items missed on the drawings but required by code)will be on the architect.
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We built a shop for our mechanic friends probably 30 or so yrs ago. At that time they built a separate block building for their furnace-abutting the outside wall of the shop. Might be a requirement, have no idea.
Floor drains could be a problem due to the need to contain contaminants.
But my reason for responding is that they installed a waste oil furnace and over this time have been happy as clams to dispose of their waste oil in this manner. The shop has 4 mechanics. Other shops have even taken to giving them their oil. I don't believe they buy any fuel at all, tho have the ability to store it if they do.
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Thanks for the reply.No floor drains to worry about, looks like there may have been one long ago that was filled with concrete. Whether or not it's a drain, I am calling it "sealed".My friend thought about building a waste oil burner for his home shop; a pole frame outbuilding. He had me go over some plans and instructions that he got off the internet. It all looked fine to me, not that I know much about building furnaces. But I guess his insurance company didn't like the idea when he had them out to inspect. Yet they were fine with the wood stove in his shop?Anyways, he will definitely need a newer furnace in this new building. I suggested to him to pick up a couple of used furnaces; one for the shop where he likes it cool ( 55˚F in winter) and another for the office/waiting room/lounge where it could be more comfy to others.DC
Heres my 2 cents.
If you know what you are doing, you dont need an architect.
Contact the inspector, tell him what you told us and ask him the basics.
1. Do you need an engineer or architect to seal the plans?
2. Is the building lot conforming to the intended use.
3. Any special requirements necessary for the construction:
Ie:
fire code
Plumbing requirements and connections to utilities
Electrical requirements
Any ventilation requirements
runoff requirements for any exterior parking lots (some areas require oil separator traps, etc.
Your mechanic buddy could put the property under agreement conditional on all approvals and necessary permits being readily avail from the township without onerous requirements.
Some good stuff so far, please keep it coming....I am really curious what all think of the roof truss type.Here's a more info :1.
No architect. None needed in my village. It's like the old west. Building inspector is part time farmer and otherwise non-existent anyways but when around is fair and easy to work with. I will likely still pull permits though - to get the minimum requirements in, but otherwise he would like to stay low budget until the money starts flowing in for him. We are currently hoping to have an initial budget of $30k then later improve another $20K but that is just from the numbers I pulled out of the air, nothing is nailed down yet.2.
Zoning/Use for the building has already been okayed. There was a recent ruling at town council; Someone wanted to buy it, tear it down, and build self storage....he got turned down and council agreed that it could only be in the use category of anything it had been in the past. It was originally a tractor sales and repair shop, then it was an auto body shop. They are fine with auto mechanic shop. Funny how small towns work.3.
Not yet sure of any "special" requirements....my concern is the fire code, which I am not very knowledgeable about in a commercial setting.All utilities [elec./water/sewer/n.gas] are hooked up and in working order and there are no floor drains, hence no oil separator.Electrical will be minimal to get up and running but should be easy enough. I am thinking of wall mounted conduit, all 20A outlets, 20A for lighting, 8ft HID fluorescent fixtures, new service panel. Service is currently 100A but we imagine upgrading to at least 200A. There is actually a brand new power drop that was never hooked up (the current power line is ran to a rotting wood pole).He and I talked briefly about ventilation. He didn't think it was necessary and claimed he never noticed ventilation in any of the other commercial shops he worked in. He said it would need ventilation if it were an autobody shop (which it used to be) but not for a mechanic shop. I will research that more though. Why do you think he would need ventilation? He does have exhaust fume hoses and a port for it at his home shop. I imagine he will bring that to the new shop.The parking area is gravel and current owner was okayed by DEQ and DNR for parking vehicles, equipment, and supplies. I don't think permits will be a problem, usually isn't in this town. The village seems to be willing to do most anything as long as a viable business gets opened. To make matters even easier, the current owner works for the village DPW (he's worker #2 out of 2). DPW building is right next door and actually is build over the property line by about 3/4"! We got a chuckle out of the notion that he could own 3/4" of the village. Also, when the last prospective buyer went to the council to propose a storage facility, my mechanic friend was there and spoke up to say it should stay a service type facility. Later, at another meeting, the council agreed that it should remain in that usage category. Again, that's just how small towns work.So, what is your opinion on the roof trusses?Currently on my list of truss possibilities are coffer, scissor, vaulted parallel chord, dbl. inverted, barrel vault trusses, or something like rigid steel frame. I assume most will be out of the budget so I am leaning towards the coffer style to create a 20' wide center isle for his lifts. Current roof is about 4:12 but could probably go up to 6:12 and still hide behind the front parapet. Parapets are not required here. Anything goes...next village over has a down town mechanic shop in a newly built pole barn. I think we can do better than that.*sorry so wordy*DC
I wonder if you could just build 4' kneewalls on top of the CMU wall, install the trusses (standard 4/12 pitch, flat bottom chord), and install 2x4 braces at 45° from the bottom of the stud to the bottom chord of the truss?Maybe not the most high-tech solution, but it sounds like your village might be okay with a lot of things that you couldn't get away with in other places.
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
Jon, that's a great idea. He had suggested to me to build knee walls up but I was worried about the connection at the bottom plate not being sturdy enough and there being the possibility for wind shift. I never thought about building diagonals... neither of us did. I thought maybe building up in CMU but I'm not super keen on masonry construction either.It's iroic that neither of us thought of using braces since that's how his home shop is built.I will certainly take that into consideration. Thanks.DC
hey dc
Sounds like you are most of the way there.
Re. trusses, cheapest would be a couple of frame walls on top of the block walls, and put regular common trusses right on top. Depending on the structure, if the bottom trusses are aligned with the top of the parapet, could look ok.
If you cant raise your sill height, you could probably only get a scissor truss in there easily. Other stuff could get expensive. I recon a gambrel style of truss could work but gets expensive. Talk to your truss supplier. My truss guy in Lancaster PA does barns and such and would be perfect for the project but that might be a little far away.
conduit is necessary in a garage. (I dont know commercial code but you are crazy to run MC in a work environment like that)
Obviously he will need 220 for his compressors, probably lifts, etc.
last garage I built was when I was mechanicing 25 years ago with my best friend.
Things to consider.
Outlets at bench heights
task lighting for certain areas down low.
If building can be drive thru, can help with getting vehicles and stuff in and out better.
Consider having 2nd floor over office area for long term storage We kept a ton of stuff over the office and were up there every hour or so. It is amazing how quickly that building will get used up space wise.
Commercial repair garages do have some requirements when it comes to the electrical system. From floor level up to 18 inches above the floor is considered a Class 1, Division 2 hazardous area, and if the building has a pit for working under cars it's a Class 1, Division 1 area, so the wiring methods have to meet requirements for those kinds of areas (generally, in a repair garage you don't put outlets down low on the wall anyway, but you have to make sure electrical connections to hoists, air compressors, etc. that may be below 18" are done properly.) Another concern is that adjacent areas like offices or storage rooms that open into the shop may be subject to the same restrictions, if they don't have positive pressure ventilation to keep any flammable fumes from entering. This is covered in Article 511 of the NEC, I'd recommend checking with a local electrician on details.Gas stations or places where there are gas pumps have a whole other set of requirements that are covered in Article 514. They are a lot more restrictive, but I assume he's only doing repair and not selling gasoline.
Stuart,No gas pumps.I didn't know of that height code but we weren't planning on any plugs low anyway. In a commercial WWshop I built once, we were required to run Romex (12-2) in the ceiling then drop into conduit to the desired height. I planned on running the electrical the same way as I hate/suk at conduit bending and snaking. Not to mention it's cheaper and doesn't collect dust like wall mounted conduit runs.No pit and the lifts wire in from a ceiling drop to about eye level.Air compressor is 220 and will be in a int. sealed/ext. ventilated mechanical where the service panel is located.Also didn't know about needing positive pressure up front, but I will let him know and make that part of my dual furnace argument.Would sealed fire doors work too? I assumed fire doors between office and shop area so that might be yet another reason.Anyone know if I MUST use metal studs for partition framing? How about the min. required drywall thickness?DC
Fire rated doors may be a good idea but that gets into an area of the NFPA codes I'm not so familiar with, hopefully someone else can elaborate on that more.
I think you ... and, for that matter, many BT posters .... missed the point of the 'do you have an architect' question. I'm addressing it here, because the issues come up so often.
Let me be blunt: architects and engineers don't get their qualifications out of a Cracker-Jack box. They actually go to school and take courses that teach them to recognize design issues, and solve them.
Some jobs are so straightforward that nearly anyone can bumble their way through. As jobs get more involved, and issues arise that are beyond a mans' daily experience, there comes a time to consider hiring someone who has 'been there, done that.'
What the 'stamp' on a drawing really means is that someone who knows what to look for has gone over the plan, and addressed any such issues.
While we tend to look at these 'college boys' as a bunch of clueless chairborne pencil-pushers ..... the fact is, they have a skilled trade as much as anyone. It's just that their computer is their 'toolbox.'
I'm currently involved in a job where the owner is intent upon doing things 'his' way, without regard for the way things are supposed to be done. All his ego will accomplish is delaying the job and running up costs. At the very start, the city explained to him (in nauseating detail, using short sentences and small words) the requirements, yet he can't be bothered to comply. His loss.
As for codes, and 'special codes' in particular ..... it has been my observation that good design invariable meets every imaginable code. It's well worth it to start off with a good design.
I don't think anyone is maligning architects or design professionals, but the question is about how essential it is to pay one in this instance.You're an electrician, right? Do you call in a plumber if you need to cut patch a 12" section of copper pipe? Or do you call a carpenter to frame a 4x4 stair landing on this side of your home?I certainly appreciate what a design professional can bring to the table, but sometimes it's just not critical. We did a commercial build-out a few months ago with no architect. Everything has the blessing of the AHJ- nothing was below the table or anything like that. I met with a County official at the beginning, asked him what we needed to have on the plans (and if an architect was needed), and we got it done.
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
Oddly enough, I do use other trades - even in my own home.
I often 'team up' with a plumber to instal pumps and the like. He's a bit on the paranoid side, and when he learned that I can (and do) thread pipe, he nearly had a stroke. He was terrified I was going to cut into his plumbing work. Not likely!
As for this thread .... there are enough areas that have either seen major recent code changes, or call for some substantial engineering training, that I think the OP needs to bring in a pro. Perhaps the 'right' general contractor; perhaps not.
Old properties bring up all manner of issues; auto repair operations have long been in the cross-hairs of the environmental folks; and cutting trusses is chancy under the best of conditions. Just when do you say 'get some help?'
I don't want to get too much into this "architect" thing as it's a peeve of mine but here's the deal:
I don't need an architect on this project. Some BT'ers do need architects, I am not one of them.
In addition to over 10yrs of construction experience, I also have two degrees in architecture and have had my own residential based design/build company for almost 6 years now. I know how to spec and engineer the structure if that were necessary.
However, I have never before designed nor built a commercial garage and was just looking here for assistance researching this subject so I can help my friend to get his business going in a cost efficient manner. An architect in the same position might well be posting here asking the same questions as I.
Now, I don't nor did before mean to aggravate or spite you by claiming we don't need an architect..... we just don't need an architect.
I do need a cheap and effective truss system. I am now leaning towards the knee wall with braces option, unless a better or cheaper option pops up. I also need opinions from anyone with experience with a similar project.
You are an electrician? Can you recommend a lighting option? I figured just using 8' fluorescents and maybe some task lights over benches and ceiling outlets for drop lights, although my friend wanted high bay fixtures but I was concerned about cost and maintenance.
What can you tell me about the lighting in this picture?:
View Image
floor lights would be sweet but would mean lots more $$$. Can't tell what the ceiling lights are.
DC
does somebody actually use that shop for it's intended purpose???
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Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
"Some days it's just not worth chewing through the restraints"
IMERC, The shop is currently being used to store the owner's tractors, snowmobiles, etc. while the parking area is storage for some of his heavy equipment and a few trailers. He does some landscaping on the side but no real business. He's had it for about 10 years.Before that it was a collision shop for about a decade. It was built in 1954 as a tractor sales and repair shop. I don't know what else it may have been. Why do you ask?DC
that place violates all the rules of "shop"....
no man card for him...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
"Some days it's just not worth chewing through the restraints"
Oh, sorry I didn't realize you were referring to the shop in the picture.In my opinion, that's not an automotive shop at all....it is a shop themed bar.DC
I was trying to make my 'architect' comments for the general audience, for application to many threads. To quote Dirty Harry, "A man has got to know his limitations."
If you can do the truss calcs, and the building dept will accept your stamp, go for it.
As for the electrical: Section 511 of the NEC has had some recent, pretty major, revisions. You most certainly need ventilation in any 'grease pit,' and don't even think of having anything electrical within 18" of the floor.
You'll also need to have supplimentary exhaust ducting as well as fresh make-up air added.
"Not much electrical" is misleading. Garages almost always end up needing all manner of electrical; there are compressors, lifts, grinders, lathes, etc. There is also, quite often, a large water heater and laundry equipment. It adds up.
As a business, you will need a 'sign' circuit, and possibly a circuit for your 'show window.'
Lighting ... what you show is not what you want to get - nor do you want 'ordinary' fluorescent.
The picture shows HID, probably 'metal halide.' The stuff is hot, and takes 20 minutes to get bright. Instead, there are now fixtures that use extremely skinny T-5 fluorescent bulbs. Unbeatable light, suitable for high ceilings, and cheap to run. Just be sure to mount them where the light is not blocked by an open garage door - and you can set a ladder to change bulbs!
Unlike other fluorescents, T-5's operate quite well when they're cold.
Drop lights are another matter, as are drop cords with receptacles. It all comes down to whether your inspector decides they need to be 'explosion proof.' Remember what I said abou telectric within 18" of the floor? Some shops dodge this issue by either mounting fluorescents on the wall, or by making a cart with a light pointing 'up.'
Ask his insurance company to come out and talk to both of you. They have lots of experience with what will avoid accidents in the building, and can suggest features that will reduce insurance premiums.
I am still kicking myself over missing the chance to buy a similar sized building at a better price about a year ago
one thing I would be wary of on commercial property----underground fuel tanks, oil contamination or anything chemical/hazardous that is already their but could come back to bite you with future liability.
stephen
Thanks Stephen,We asked about the ground conditions, that was how we found out that the DNR and DEQ okayed the site. No brownfield. The current owner did some digging to make the gravel parking lot and said he didn't find any saturation by contaminates (Which surprised me since it was originally a tractor sales/repair) just a scrap pile of metal parts.Right across the street is another building up for sale. The old gas station and garage. It has much better aesthetics, needs the same amount of work on the building, has less land, cost much less.... but has lots of stories surrounding what's under foot. Some say the fuel tanks were removed illegally and contaminated that area; some say that all used motor oil was poured out the back door, still others claim that there are vats of arsenic in the ground from it's days as a coach builder's shop. On top of those claims, the last owner built a pole barn on the property line and the roof actually overhangs the neighbor's property (a residence). The problems outweighed the cost.DC
yup, my wife has a client that bought a property that was a truck mechanics shop for a few years (less than 5 years). In that time the soil on the property was contaminated by oil etc... Once discovered, no work on a new building could be done on property until cleanup was done which amounted to about $400,000, and a delay of almost a year.
Have him make his offer contingent upon you having all the time you need to get those questions answered by the proper authorities. It will cost you big time to not know the answers.
Blue,Currently my friend is the only one making an offer; a lease option buyThe owner is highly motivated and is willing to land contract to suit whatever we need.So far [after one meeting] the only stipulation we made was that payments be kept very low until the shop was operational. The owner agreed that $450/mo was fair to him because that's what he currently paid on it [in another land contract].I think any other demands we have would be no problem.DC
just my opinion.. but i think you might come out cheaper adding on a 16ft tall metal building to house the lifts...
but if he neds to do it on the cheap.. and you can add a few supports that won't be in the way... i could picture the lifts in the center adding a few support posts & beams and just cutting out the center of the trusses to gain the height he needs.. provided you add the proper support... pretty sure thats what i'd look at first if money and time was an issue and if i already had a good roof
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