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I was at Menards last night while router shopping, and wandered through the woodyard. I was surprised to see 9 3/8″ and 11 3/8″ LVL beams up to 16′ long available on the racks, along with 9 3/8″ solid-wood flange I-joists in similar lengths. I had never pictured these things as being so easily available to the general public; I have always associated them with a certain amount of engineering, especially the LVL beams, and seeing them available to the clueless and worse the minimally knowledgeable caused a little warning light to come on somewhere inside me. Thoughts?
did
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You are correct, sailor. End bearing requirements, cutting limitations, fasteners, hangers and job-site storage conditions are but a few of the concerns. I've taken to specifying 5/8" type X gyp in habitable rooms w/I-joists over to compensate for quicker burn time, for instance.
Does the DIY understand the difference between l/360 and l/480 deflection criteria? Do they read the directions and follow? If so, no problem.
Jeff
*I feel the same as you guys do. Dangerous stuff. Maybe that's why they only stock the stuff in lengths up to 16' - Not even long enough for a 16' garage door header. Actually, the I-joists concern me more than the beams. People around here regularly refer to them as "I-beams" and think they're much stronger than they are.
*Wait untill someone throws them on top of the family minivan or SUV. If they make it home with one piece, they may still call them I-beams, but my guess is they will break them into a couple of pieces.
*Hugo is correct.One needs to be licensed to do electrical work in town, but I can purchase electrical supplies anywhere in town without showing a license. That is more dangerous than construction work.The engineering of I-Joists is no more difficult than engineering with solid stock. The assembly has more details but nothing difficult.Just like most electrical work DIY's do, most structural work does not need a licensed professional to do the design work. -----Around here the lumber yards including the big boxes do structural engineering (or send you to the Boise-Cascade yard to see the structural engineer). The engineering is free.------For the record I am a graduate engineer (BS, MS, PhD) and a licensed PE.
*Hugo- There's all kinds of great (and knowledgeable) advice here at Breaktime, the people are all very willing and generous in sharing their experience...............All you have to do is come in the door with a friendly attitude. -Ken
*Oh, I forgot to add, Wet Head Worrier, et al. I'm doing all this work without permits or inspections ! Gonna call the cops on me?
*Hugo- Sorry I was nice. You're not welcome here.
*Hugo- And what are YOU doing here?
*Ken, I was un-aware you were the welcoming committee, is this an official designation, or just self appointed?Wet head, I hope you keep your promises, BTW, I've also got one of those little boxes that let you get free cable tv, so you really should be staying well away from me.
*Hugo since you like stero types so much lets seeYou drive a mini van, you want me to hold you hand, and you used the phrase well, gee I think I will pass.But since you have with/for/along side/and supervised guys like me , why dont you describe WHAT I AM LIKE.David
*boy, you guy's sure must have had a rough week.
*RezHell I thought it was still mondaytime flies when your havin funDavid
*I don't say much, but I gotta say this. This is probably the stupidist thread I've ever read. Right from the start. Certain people shouldn't be allowed to buy engineered lumber because the might mis-use it? Better keep them from buying all framing lumber then. Lumberyards don't just hand this stuff out without any guidance.
*Mike, That's what I've been trying to say!Then the professionals came along and said "bite me"Your right, this is a stupid thread, and I'm going to sleep now.
*Actually it's usually the spelling that seems to suffer around here. Lot of good reading, sometimes a lot more than what's here (or there). Joe H
*My lumberyards have all kinds of span tables for engineered wood available for free at the store, which are easily understood even by a non-engineer like myself. But if i want to use dimensional lumber, i have to go to span tables in my abridged code guide. But how many DIY's are going to know the difference bet southern yellow pine and hemlock even if they have a solid lumber span table in front of them? The average Jane is actually better served by the folks who create engineered lumber.
*sg, you are probably right. I made my comment about the minivan,SUV because I saw it happen. The very people that sold this guy the " I-beams" and gave him such "good advice" loaded 8 sixteen footers on top of his SUV without banding them! They did not make sure that he left the store with the available cut and intall sheet. Maybe that is not typical of thier product support, but I have seen enough similar stuff to make me believe it is pretty normal.I have also seen electricians, plumbers and HVAC tradesmen make serious cutting mistakes on engineered products. Someone always seems to catch those mistakes and make some effort to correct them. The inspectors are the last defense agianst bad building around here( unless you also count the court). I guess my point is that the professionals are perfect, but the DIYer that is not getting the support or inspection of professionals maybe putting thier project and themselves at unnecessary risk.
*Didn't take long for this thread to degrade into some pretty childish stuff. You guys are all above that. My concern is that things like the I-joists will be misused, as people tend to think they're a lot stronger than they actually are. For instance: Had a lumberyard call one day, and asked for two I-joists 20' long. (I worked somewhere that stocked them) They came and picked them up, and delivered them to a jobsite. I was concerned when I found out about it, as people don't tend to i justneed two I-joists, unless they needed a couple to finish off a job. So we sent someone out to investigate. Turns out they had been used as "I-beams" to hold up a carport. The guy building it didn't think 2X10s were strong enough, so he ordered two I-joists instead. They had a talk, and we swapped them out for an LVL beam, which was actually what they needed. So I'm not knocking anyone - I actually don't remember if this was a DIY job or a contractor. I'm only concerned that they will be used incorrectly.
*After reading this entire thread, I stand by the comments that I made in the first post. Witness: All the past threads on this site regarding "gee my bedroom floor framed with I-joists sure feels bouncy ...." etc.It is MUCH easier to mis-install I-joists than dimension lumber. Examples: omission of squash blocks where required, improper headers, careless plate/top-hung hanger relationship, careless cutting, wrong fasteners, etc.Most tradesmen (and I'm not one) whether they can read or not, i already know how to handle these conditions, from experience and training. Most DIY's (and I AM one) absolutely do not.Jeff
*No-one seems to be answering the question -What is it to you? So what if I or anyone else goes down, buys engineered lumber and ends up with bouncy floors or a screwed up house. What's it to you that one buys a product, uses it for the correct or in-correct application, exceeds it's rating, understands it, doesn't understand it, or bothers to read the directions? There's plenty of potentially "dangerous stuff" everywhere, I can go down to the auto parts place and get replacement brake pads and try to replace them myself, is that not dangerous? Especially for the clueless and miminally knowledgeable? There's thousands of things that fit in this definition, who's going to make a list?
*So what is a squash block? (Serious question)MDF_UserHey, I have used lots of these things and nothing has fallen down yet. I am just waiting for them to be made out of good old MDF instead of that stranded lumber stuff. (a little gas for the fire)
*But this wasn't a lumberyard - it was Menards (a very low-end big box store, in case you aren't familiar with the name), and the stuff was on racks in a public-access area. There was no opportunity for guidance, and I doubt the employees there (generally in the "dude, I got so wasted last night" phase of life) had any to provide anyway. Through shows like TOH and its ilk, the public has been led to believe that these things are massively strong. Danger, Will Robinson! Danger!did
*HugoAs I have stated before i think anyone should be able to purchase anything, but I believe the reason for the concern is public safety. Homes are build/bought and sold rather quickly these days. Building inspections are to ensure the safety of the original owners and the owners to come may years down the road. A improper use of a material may not cause immediate problems, but could cause major safety concerns years later. To use your analogy, guns are legal, sure but assault rifles are not. Why because the potential for harm is much greater.David
*Mdf User - I'll confess, I don't know what a Squash block is. Perhaps you could do us non-pro's a service by enlightening us on the subject. But, that doesn't stop me from finding out what a squash block is, if it is in my interest to do so should the need arise. I've never had the occasion to use engineered lumber, so I'll be the first to admit my shortcomings on the subject, nevertheless, why should that be an impediment to my using it in the future? diddidit - I can order engineered lumber products from my local lumber yard, with what guidance they may or may not provide, it's up to me, in the end, however, to inform myself as to what and how to use for my own safety, etc. After all, how do I know the advice I was receiving was correct in the first place? Big boxes are loaded with all sorts of products with no guidance; circuit breaker boxes, water heaters, power tools, etc. There's nothing to stop me from loading them up in the shopping cart, why are LVL's and I joists any different, really? and David, Your point is well taken, but I'm sure you'll agree incompetent or careless use of building materials is not limited to DiY'ers. The fact that one can purchase such materials is separate from whether one is using them properly. Personal, I feel catastrophic loss of life/property many years down the line due to improper materials/building practices is a pretty far stretch to say certain people should not have access.....
*As I have stated before i think anyone should be able to purchase anything.Anyone can buy a car or plane, but you need a licience to operate them legally. Why public safetyWhy are there over the counter medicines, and prescription drugs. Does a precspition ensure a person will use a product correctly, no but it does insure that they have been informed.I am very curious if these joist have a warning tag attached to them? Use what ever you want, just do it legally IE get a permitDavid
*Extend an olive branch and get slapped in the face.
*Hugo,You can buy a dentist chair and drill over at eBay.Does that quailify you to drill teeth? No.You can buy LVL's and TJI's at the lumber yard.Does that quailify you to engineer a house? No.Can you do both of these things if you want to? Yes.Will you big in big trouble with the local and state authority if you do? Yes.Will you do it anyway? Probably.Are you an idiot? Definitely.Ed.
*Ed I will buy the denist chair and drill, if you will hold him down.David
*Ed: Badda bum bump. That pretty much sums up my warning light. Well said.did
*hugo.. r u from texas ?is yur other name dirk?do u have a reason for hangin out heah ?or.. is it just another boring day at the office ?if i didn't think you were trying to make a point i'd think u were trying to bait these nice people, but for the life of me i can't see your point.. should mennards be selling things that require engineering and specialized knowledge... sure.. should people be buying and stalling this stuff without acquiring the knowledge...no.. but they will... and eventually the lawyers will bring a successful suit against the mennards & HD's of the world and they'll get more careful about HOW they sell the stuff...just like the ladder companies had to come to grips with the new reality... that there really are people who will misuse their product and sue them for the results..play nice hugo...
*This has to be the first thread where "misogynist" was spelled correstly right out of the gate. Progress! (Jeff), you have to admit that lumber grade is at least one variable taken out of the equation for the DIY'r. An I-joist will bounce, but a big knot at the bottom of a span says "buh-bye!" OTOH, there's the business of cutting through a flange opposed to cutting through the botton inch of so of solid lumber, but one needs to be aggressively stupid to do that. I wonder...were people standing around lumber yards when plywood debuted, saying that DIY'rs should be limited to solid wood in case they might try spanning 8 feet with the new product?
*> in case they might try spanning 8 feet with the new productWhat?!? You can't span 8 feet with plywood??!!? Uhhm, I'll be back.Rich Beckman
*Did I miss a fight? Dang.
*Fred- Stick around, always entertaining to see you go head to head! :o) Ken
*TrusJoist joists come with a fully detailed installation guide attached to every so many joists. I believe it even has a span table inside. If you know anything about building (ie. the walls sit on the floor, the floor sits on the foundation) you can successfully install a TJI floor with this booklet. They really make it quite foolproof. If you don't want to bother reading the info and don't care what a squash block is or what it does, TrusJoist really isn't liable for anything - as far as the floor is concerned. If 2x10's came with the same type of booklet maybe fewer floors would closely resemble trampolines.
*Mike,I think I made my point certainly clear by now, - but for your point, considering how often lawyers and contractors bang heads together, I don't see the HD's and Menards of the world fairing any worse than you guys.I'm afraid I've never been to the fine state of Texas, sorry to disappoint you.And as for why I hang out here, well, the same as you, for all the great (and knowledgeable) advice.
*"correstly"? :)
*What's a squash block?MDF_UserSo question? Who gets sued more - a contractor who pretends employees working for him are subcontractors, or a DYI using TGIs etc.?
*Long grain 2x stock set on either side of the joist web running vertically flange to flange to support the compression load at bearing points.
*Andrew, i was all prepared to say how glad i was to see you posting again--i've been re-reading a lot of insulation threads to get my own take on the VB/FG/cels controversy and saw your name there--but excuse me while i go let the air out of your tires. If i were a big-shot lawyer who could afford to have her secretary type her responses, my posts would be as perfect as yours. And..and...patooie!
*Hugo seems to be the kind of gal who would mis-use most anything available in a store. Like disabling the blade guard on a circular saw so she can cut her leg off when she gets serious kickback. Or not opening a step ladder fully so it can collapse under her weight. Or any number of other common sense things that lawyers love to get hold of so they can sue the poor manufacturer for not making everything absolutely idiot proof.
*Jeez, Splinter, I thought you were a classy dame! Around here we only spit on the floor in the tavern.Just a ...
*Don't want to escalate this conflict, but I'll add my 2 cents.In my mind there is little difference between selling a 16-ft 2x10 or 16-ft LVL to the uninformed. You need to know what you're doing to use either one properly or you'll get in trouble.That said, building codes, permits and such are essential to maintaining public safety. Hugo, get a permit and plan review by somebody that your state recognizes as a licensed professional.
*Hi, Ed. Looks like you replied to me, but i can't figure it out. Hugo's a girl? Standing on a ladder despite having her leg sawed off while a lawyer jerks it out from under her? No wonder you're sympathetic... (Must be a guy thing; i seem to be immune.)
*You can't expect a consumer to be smart enough to know how to judge an entire house ( Pulte exposed), and yet be too dumb to use a stick of lumber.
*splintergroupie,I guess I don't understand what you're trying to say.BCK
*Ed Hilton,I am not a gal.Ed Williams,You asked what I do for a living, I work in the technical services industry, I hope you'll forgive me for not elaborating on that. It's just very complicated for non-professionals such as yourself to understand, with all sorts of terminology which will leave you confused, and software and hardware you're unfamiliar with. You know, like how I can't understand you guys with your tape measures, skil saws, sawzalls, and square pencils that you use.bcKelly, As for building inspectors, permits and inspections, well, all very well and good for providing the "impression" of doing something right, but for those who say it's necessary for public safety, you guys are just plain dumb. The few building inspectors I've run into seem more interested in kickbacks than in safety.
*Andrew, how nice to see your name again. Still at it? Still in DC? Have you bought every tool known to man yet? Joe H
*In the Pulte thread, many (myself included) were saying the people who bought the houses should have known more about what they were buying, that they shouldn't have blindly followed what contractors, lawyers and real estate agents were telling them about the quality of the houses they bought which subsequently were falling down around their ears.Yet, in this thread, there is the idea that homeowners aren't smart enough to be trusted with any sort of lumber that they might use in construction. I do not agree with this. I learned to do my own work bec when i hired it out, it was done badly by bad contractors. The good contractors were all busy and had no time for my jobs, so the alternative was to DIY it. On the face of it, who cares more about my house, the fellow who is doing it as fast as possible and who may be out of business next month, or myself, who has time to do it right, and will have to live with what i did to my home?Maybe i'm making more of this than Derek intended, but i see a dichotomy between thinking people ought to be more responsible for their behaviors and upkeep--maybe not drive around with other people sticking out of their windshields--and the thinking that says we should compartmentalize our lives, be specialists, and leave the thinking to others who are more qualified. The guy with the I-joists on his pickup isn't going to be hired to do the next WTC; he just wants to build a carport. If this requires a permit, so be it. If i were King, i would have advisors in building departments as well as inspectors, to teach the small-timers how to do it well and safely, instead of this PASS/NO PASS system that encourages ignorance and deceit.
*Wow. I didn't think I'd be smacking such a deep nerve with this, but it seems to be dredging up the old DIY thread and associated warring (wasn't that Splinter v. Gabe, round 1?). Anywho, lemme elaborate a little bit. In seeing these I-joists and LVL's on the free-for-all rack, a little bell rang somewhere, and sensed a potential for misuse. It's sort of like when I worked in the crane+hoist industry - certain questions or requests or combinations of products raised warning flags, like asking for a rope guide invariably meant that someone was going to do off-vertical lifts, a major no-no. Of course, anything can be misused, as has been pointed out a couple of times. I think what caused my minor alarms was simply the ingenuity of the common idiot! Plus, these were most definitely not TJI quality, and there was no educational material around to explain what the differences were in application and installation. Seeing these at my local lumberyard would have raised no flags at all; seeing them at Menards still does. I doubt the people working there would know the differences in application.Did that make sense? It's past my bedtime.did
*diddidit,Sorry I didn't respond to your original post. I got distracted.Most everybody here has made some good points. At the home centers, you can buy just about anything you need to build a house. There is nothing wrong with that. If an electrical contractor can save a few bucks buying breakers at HD, well.....what's wrong with that? It does give an avenue to Joe Homeowner to try to wire his house himself, but he could go to the electrical supply house and buy the material anyway.I think most people know, with few exceptions, that there are things they should leave to a professional. Not everyone feels that way But there are people out there who will wire their own houses and engineer their own structures.Outside of city limits it's done all the time.Ed.
*Holy crap, Hugo. At the beginning of this thread I was firmly allied with the "BITE ME" group, but now....well, what's wrong, man? And if you're gonna tell me the obvious stuff that I already know you'll probably say, don't bother. What's goin' on? The Man treating you bad at your software support job?You don't talk like a guy that's worked in the trades very much.But what really blew me away is what you said about inspectors. The job of the inspector is to enforce the code. That's it. The code MAKERS are the ones responsible for safety. So an inspector is therefore enforcing safety by enforcing the code, for your own dumb self as well as anyone else that steps foot in your home. Maybe you'd care to tell us the story about the inspectors that just wanted a kickback from you?
*splintergroupie,I see now, and mostly agree with what you say. My wife and I DIY. We designed our house. We're building it DIY now and have had an earthwork sub, concrete sub, HVAC sub for our GSHP and one guy to help us with electrical and plumbing. 2 of 4 subs had a marginal grasp of important aspects of their work, and 3 of 4 were a huge pain in the %[email protected], it has seemed like we are forced to educate ourselves to get a good job from these contractors. Interesting idea about advisors in the permit office. Biggest hurdle to this must be our litigious society though, right. If someone tells me how to do it at the permit office then I'm not responsible any more, right?Thanks for not leaving me out Hugo.BCK
*Well, Looks as though someone's been deleting my posts, probably the guys who run this board, which is fine, since they own it. But I've rather lost my train of thought. Let's see, this all started with someone questioning if certain building products be readily available to homeowners, DIY's, because of the potential for mis-use. As opposed to properly trained professions, which, in my neck of the woods means a rolly-polly man in a pickup with his teenaged helpers. Come on ! Like I can't learn the hows/whens/and whys of engineered lumber? What kind of instructional literature comes from these companies regarding their product, a 7 page brochure? Somehow, I think if I can master my VCR manual I should be able to handle LVL's and I joists as well.
*Splints - sorry about the unclear message. It was not aimed at you. You've been around long enough that we know all about you. More than we want, possibly. :) Refering to HB as a gal was a feeble attempt at a put-down. You're thoughts on the building inspectors/plans examiners is good, but I would suggest that it be modified such that they be empowered (or required) to provide assistance and guidance to prevent field errors. It would make their inspections easier, too.Hugie - what's wrong with a construction professional having teenage helpers? As long as they are properly supervised and utilized, that's how skills and knowledge are passed down to younger generations.
*i What kind of instructional literature comes from these companies regarding their product, a 7 page brochure?There was NO literature present - I don't doubt that you or most other reasonably skilled homeowner/DIY (I'm in the DIY crowd myself)could handle these products, IF given some instruction in their application.did
*Hi folks. I deleted some messages here. They were becoming personal attacks, which aren't allowed by our content policy. You can all do better than that. The thread evolved in an interesting direction, one which I've seen both sides of. Having spent 15 years in the trades, and a little better than 5 as an FHB editor, I can say with assurance that there are some DIYs out there who do better than most pros. There are also some pros out there, some of whom I think are regulars here, that put everyone else to shame.Both are welcome here, as are people from either camp, of whatever skill level, whose hope is to become better at what they do. Just do me the favor of brushing the chip off your shoulder before walking in the door.Andy
*Hey Andy, when you delete a post, or when someone gets a little over the line, do you send them an email? I know I have been a little obnoxious at times, but no one in an official capacity has ever called my hand, so I guess I haven't stepped over the line yet. (And, no, I'm not trying to see how far I can push you.)
*Ed, sometimes I do, sometimes I don't. It depends on how busy I am and where I am and what's going on. If, as is the case now, I'm posting from home, I do the minimum. If I'm at work anyway, I may send an e-mail. Most of the time, deleting a post is enough of a message. If I see a trend, I'll surely e-mail.
*No problem, Wet. It's sometimes too easy to take things personally on-line. When I get annoyed at a poster (When's that ever happen? ), I'll type a long response, and delete it before posting. I get to vent, and the world doesn't have to suffer it.
*Don't let Andy have all the fun.I think everyone should delete some messages. It's a kick. Try it. Yes, you have to learn the right sequence of buttons to push. After five or six hundred, trust me, you get the hang of it. And yes, you may see some whiner put you down and act like you're trying to rewrite the Bible. But there's also a chance you could gain the respect of someone you'll value as a friend. It's a good risk.Clicking away, Fred
*Dear Wet,get along in person? If you didn't hack my joists, I'd kiss you.But about this forum thing. If you ignored my 'style' and argued to the death about energy, then we could really get tight. Bt has been overdosed with hostility for too long. Can't change overnight. It will take some time for all poison to work its way out. Every good post moves that process, each bad one is a cramp.Ready for serious fun, Fred
*Dear Wet,Sure, bad distribution in a normal sucky house is a nightmare. I admire the skill it takes to somehow balance the heat input when there is raging heat loss. I could never do that. It's way, way over my head.Bear in mind that I'm an envelope guy. When I can get control of the building design, there is no mechanical heat distribution at all. It's too complicated and expensive for me. All the wires, ducts, and pipes drive me nuts.And then there is our Gene.Simply, Fred
*Nice work with the fire hose, Andy.Guidance at lumber yards/supply houses v. home centers:The argument is that people aren't smart enough to do their own work. If education is the missing link bet the public and that I-joist, i say smarten 'em up instead of telling the ignorant sods to wait in line for a professional to help them out--eventually, and at great cost.I'm not familiar with Menards, but HD has all kinds of classes and wastes all kinds of warehouse space on sample installations that suppliers to the trades needn't bother with showing. With the demise of school industrial arts classes--where i'll bet a lot of us learned to deal with tools and materials--Home Centers have stepped into the breach to educate homeowners, albeit haphazardly.
*I wish HD would invest more in training, too; i think they're dropping the ball in that area. Maybe it's the liability issue there, as well. Pretty soon carps will have to license their hands as lethal weapons!
*Yo Splinter - Knowing you what little I do, I know that there are at least a couple of things about you that are above average. One is your intelligence, and the other is the size of your...............Well, never mind. I don't doubt that you yourself are intelligent enough to read a span chart for lumber or engineered products. But plenty of people aren't. I get plenty of requests from people to help them interpret the charts. And I think it takes some experience to know when to follow the charts and when not to. And there are other things that go along with beam charts - Like load development - That just aren't known to the average person.
*... or you could just use a Dremel Mototool ... oops, sorry I read the instructions and you are not allowed to drill teeth with it.Jeff
*did - I think we all missed the scariest aspect of your post - you were ROUTER shopping? (Danger, Will Robin ....) :o)Jeff
*>We're building it DIY now and have had an earthwork sub, concrete sub, HVAC sub for our GSHP and one guy to help us with electrical and plumbing. 2 of 4 subs had a marginal grasp of important aspects of their work, and 3 of 4 were a huge pain in the %!@. >Unfortunately, it has seemed like we are forced to educate ourselves to get a good job from these contractors.If you're acting as the general contractor, then you should be educated enough on the trades to properly manage the contractors you hire, including their methods and materials. You're an important part of making sure the house will stand safely for a long, long time, and learning and understanding a healthy chunk of what is required of each sub is a HUGE part of being a good GC. It's more than just making phone calls and writing checks, no?Jim
*Hugo, I'm wondering if you think the consequences of missing your favorite Jerry Springer episode because you mis-programmed your VCR are the same as the possible collapse of your house? Joe H
*Yup. Got myself a nice Milwaukee BodyGrip, but not at Menards (they had, for some unfathomable reason, only $50 Ryobis or $300 Feins) - got it at Lowes. Don't feel too much fear yet, though - I don't have any bits yet. Give it time...did
*... Milwaukee has some great dental attachments ...
*Joe, You all are a bunch of smarty pants...And I get accused of doing the baiting... My work and my house are not at issue, I'm not even using engineered lumber.I don't see spontaneous collapse of a building any more or less likely with engineered products than with dimensional lumber.Why are you worried about my house? Every one's been saying "Public Safety ! Public Safety !" Mine is private property, the public is not invited. It's up to me, as owner, to provide for the safety of anyone who visits, mailman, paperboy, who-ever. That includes the structure, the slippery steps, or the dog biting them.You seem to be hung up on me making a mistake with engineered lumber. That seems to be the core of your arguement. What if I buy chicken at the supermarket, prepare it incorrectly and give my guests and myself food poisoning and we all die? Should certain foods be available to only professional chefs? (btw, the only times I've gotten food poisoning is when eating out)
*i I get plenty of requests from people to help them interpret the charts.Two aspects of this just make me grin: 1) that the people are smart enough to know when to ask you, the expert, and 2) that you are a great guy to help them instead of telling them it can't be done. For your expertise, i would expect you to be compensated, too.Thanks for the compliment, i think...
*i What if I buy chicken at the supermarket, prepare it incorrectly and give my guests and myself food poisoning and we all die? Guess we'll all miss you. It's been nice. Joe H
*Apparently, manufacturers tend to agree with the premise that their engineered products involve specific technical knowledge required for installation. For instance, Geogia-Pacific's warranty states that they warrant their engineered lumber products to "Qualified Owners" and define that as:A “Qualified Owner” is any person who purchases a residential structure in which any of the Covered Products have been installed if those Covered Products were selected, purchased, handled, and installed after November 15, 1996 in accordance with our installation instructions for the Covered Products i by a person who has been trained in installation of the Covered Products by us or our authorized agent.(emphasis mine)So, manufacturers will not warrant to untrained DIYs and indicate, by inference, that self-training is inadequate to assure a warranty. This is key because the performance characteristics of an engineered lumber system depend on more than just the product.Jeff
*So Jeff, have you been trained? MDF_USER
*Will they warrant their products if installed by an un-trained pro? Just a talented amateur these days,Andy
*Good question - Yes, by TJI reps here, within the context of design. But the context is installation. I'm not indicating that I have expertise in installation. You might ask then, would my knowledge of design translate directly to installation expertise to the point that I would feel comfortable installing engineered lumber without additional training. My answer to that would be no.Jeff
*LOL - As I understand it, one-eyed talented amateurs are i specifically excluded.Jeff
*'Tis an ill wind that blows no good.
*> Will they warrant their products if installed by an un-trained pro?Depends. They'll pick apart any detail you didn't follow in their installation guide to try to prove that you didn't install things the way they wanted. Regardless of whether a DIY or a pro installed them And it doesn't matter to them if the store actuallyi gaveyou a copy of the info or not.
*Sweet knight, thou art now one of the greatest men in this realm!
*Do you bite your thumb at me, Sir?
*Hugo- You are correct. Why is it any one else's business what/how you build your house- it's YOUR castle.......The safety and liability issues DO come up when: 1) You (attempt to) sell the house; 2) You rent out the house; 3) Your children live in the house. -Ken
*Joe, I guess you won't be accepting any invites to dinner at my place, that's too bad.....your loss. But there's always Burger King.Ken, Good point. But, I feel the question of liability is only valid in case of malfeasance or gross incompetance on the owners part. If I did a sloppy job building steps and someone's kid tripped and fell, it would just be covered by homeowner's insurance like any other slip n' fall case. But I think that's a subject of a few weeks ago, on the thread about insurance.
*Cloud,I absolutely agree with what you're saying. There seem to be very few contractors that you can trust to have the ability/honesty to give you the product you asked for without very close supervision or coaching. I'm sure that the folks contributing to this forum are among the exceptions to this rule. Like you say, I'd guess that a good GC must really know it all.I recall now that I left one sub out; the well driller. He fell into the category of honest, but inept. That makes it 3/5 subs dropping the ball on key aspects of their work. One of the happiest days of our (ongoing) building process was when the last sub we needed drove away!
*Dear Ken,Hugo is correct again. If you or I made a structural mistake, the result would be punitive and our insurance would pay. If Hugo slips up, the result would be supportive and his insurance would pay.House spans are short and they are over built. Structural diaphrams also build strength by developing 2 and 3 dimensional properties that engineers never consider in residential design. The result is far more building failures in engineered/prof built commercial projects than in DIY jobs. We'll just have to take pride in our tight trim joints.Constructively, Fred
*Hugo,I hope you'd feel bad about the poor kid. Insurance or not, I'd hate for someone to get hurt because I didn't build something correctly. But what the hey, your insured, right?One of the carpenters that works for us had a neighbor that built himself a pole barn in his backyard. A big one. He scoffed at the codes and regulations too. He had self-educated himself on the finer points of building. After all, if "those people" can do it, so can I, right? The neighborhood association tried to get the city to make him take it down. Before they could, it fell. Fast. No warning. My carpenter was in his back yard when it happened. He said it happened so fast and without any warning, that there would be no time to get out. Just a big crack as it hit the ground and crushed the contents.OK, so maybe the insurance company will cover death and injury. That sounds like fun. It's OK because you're covered, right?Fortunatly, the man's kids weren't in the barn. They liked to play in the barn after school and on weekends.True story.Ed.
*Dear Ed,Yet another story from Texas. What are you guys doing down there?Dealing with snow loads, FredAP Newsflash - Dateline New York - April 15, 1982Visiting Professor KilledA visiting professor from Texas A&M University in College Station, Texas was killed today in the spectacular collapse of a twenty-seven story building under construction by two of his former CVEN345 students. Killed while inspecting the new construction was Dr. Lee L. Lowery, Jr., visiting the area by invitation of his former students. Speculating on the cause of the collapse, the students commented that it may have been an Act of God, or perhaps a faulty shear and moment diagram. "He never really got that point across," the students commented.Regarding the investigation by the State Attorney General into the possibility that the collapse was in retaliation for their grades, both students said "Ridiculous! Everybody got an A in Lowery's class."When asked about future plans for their multi-million dollar construction firm, the students replied that they would probably return to Texas A&M, where failures were not viewed with such alarm. One of the students commented "Damn. You would think it was the only building in town!"
*In Chicago even the scaffolding falls.....
*Hey Edward, Well of course I'd feel guilty, why, do you think me an insensitive , uncaring brute? Why, I'd be terribly despondent over the hurt young lad, and go moping about, blaming myself for not hiring a contractor in the first place. After all, the pros make no mistakes, all their work is perfect, free of fault. Any potential for accident or trauma is gone once you hire a job out. A professionally run jobsite is free of death or injury. Like a local case were a young man, still in his teens, working for a notable residential construction firm lost all his fingers when the scaffolding he was on collapsed, first week on the job, too. Oh, well, too bad, but those pros have workman's comp, don't they, "Licensed and FULLY INSURED" on the side of the van, so that makes it OK? True story too....
*Shame on you Joe. Caught you in a lie:i Guess we'll all miss you. It's been nice. Joe H You didn't really mean that, did you?
*bckellyl: "There seem to be very few contractors that you can trust to have theability/honesty to give you the product you asked for without very close supervision or coaching."I'm not clear what method you're using to select your subcontractors, but, from the results, it would seem to be flawed and I don't think it's fair to generalize about the competency or honesty of a group based on results you've gotten from a poor method of choice. Perhaps you should first critique the choices you've made before you generalize from the inadequacies of this small, self-selected sampling.
*Jeez, you're embarassing me, Hugo. Are you going to lose the attitude? Makes me wince to read your posts.
*Ed, I think Hugo's made a lot of new friends here. Surely some would be saddened to learn that his expertise as either a chef or as an engineer had resulted in his absence? No? Joe H
*Ted,We looked for the best local subcontractors we could find based on recommendations from 1) 2 local yards, 2) building inspector, 3) word of mouth. Lowest cost was never a selection criteria. We provided very detailed plans as appropriate and they agreed to execute them.. We now live in a rural area, so the selection is fairly limited. I'm sure that in a more urban area, that small portion of able/honest tradesman would add up to a larger number and we might have had more success. I'd be glad to hear any recommended changes to our selection criteria?In our past lives, I worked as an engineering consultant and my wife as a project manager for large GC's. Collectively, we dealt with at least several hundred contractors in a dozen or so states. Our experience in this regard was not much different than in construction of our own home. This seems like a large enough sample to confirm that the majority seem lacking in either ability or honesty. Again, from all I read here on this forum, I'm sure that the folks here are among the exceptions to this rule.Hugo,I sometimes wish we lived in a world where you could be entirely responsible for what goes on on your property. Truly. But, I'm afraid you aren't. If the mailman gets hurt, if there's a fire, . . . my tax dollars are going to end up spent on your problem. Either directly through emergency service response to the incident or indirectly through medicare, or health care premiums I'm going end up paying for any tragedy that occurs on your property. In the story above, if the homeowner with a collapsed pole barn gets a payout from my same insurance company it costs me. So apart from entirely reasonable public safety concerns, there's a pretty clear economic issue in aggregate.
*> Structural diaphrams also build strength by developing 2 and 3 dimensional properties that engineers never consider in residential design.Just a side note - Didn't know if you were aware of it. TPI (Truss Plate Institute) is trying to implement a new design standard that would allow a 5% increase in the tension/compression values of trusses 2' O.C. with plywood on the top chord. And they already allow a 15% increase in bending values for truss chords and rafters in the same situation.
*Wet -Some of us here catch it for MAKING a play on words ....Jeff
*Hi guys. Time to stop the personal attacks. Hugo, I tried to e-mail you, but your account isn't valid, which is itself a violation of the Content Policy. I'd like you to e-mail me. Andy
*Fun's over?
*You can pick on me, if you want. Here's some cannon fodder:1. I shop at Menards2. I got up at 5 a.m. this morning3. I like cats4. I like Macs5. I have an Engineering Physics degreeHaveatyou! En garde! I'm going to get some more coffee!did
*Andy,I've just sent you an e-mail..
*Got it. Thank you.
*I have deleted all my messages here. I do not wish to be associated in any way with this Hugo character.I apologize for stooping to his level. If this were a physical place I would quietly ease on out. Since it is a virtual place I will also ease on out.Let me know when the bullies leave, please. In the meantime you can find me hanging out where other decent people do. I have better things to do.PS. Andy, I urge you to consider what this person will do to your boards if left here. Just a thought.
*Re: 4I prefer the double cheeseburger, and they're only a buck.Re: 3That says a lot about you. (positive statement)
*WHWDon't leaveTurn on the ignore switchDon't engage
*Mr. Wet Head Warrior,It is too bad that you deleted your posts, much of what you had to say was quite valid, at least that which was germain to the original thread.This subject has long since past been beaten to death, that, and the fact that my writing style seems to provoke a small minority into disrupting the classroom, is good reason for me to "ease on out" You can all sleep soundly at night, now......
*I hate to disrupt your delusion. But your posts displayed far more than a writing style. They displayed an arrogant, in your face, chip on your shoulder attitude. I find that offensive. If you remember, I extended a compliment to you and you were nasty right back.That is not "writing style" my friend. That is something deeper than that coming from your own heart and soul.Have a good night.
*I won't be leaving the boards. not what I meant.
*I-joists--Just Say NoYou can say that unqualified individuals shouldn't have access, but that just pushes the problem underground. If people can't buy I-joists at Menard's, they'll get friends to buy them for them. If the price of I-joists gets too high, there will be midnite raids into lumberyards with the possibility people might get hurt, or they might be smuggled across the borders from lawless I-joist- producing countries. People will use, so it's better to deal with the demand instead of trying to eliminate the supply.Any company can slap on boilerplate to cover its butt (see IKO shingle thread). Have you ever read the 2 pt. warnings on the aspirin bottles? How may of us posting are "qualified" to buy either, and yet who here would be deterred? I suspect the average Joe can master both anti-inflammatories and I-joists. Consumer education is key. The construction business is chock full of charlatans and homeowners are fed up with long waits and sloppy work. FHB, TOH, JLC, Family Handyman provide some alternative medicine to this world, but industrial arts should be brought back in high schools as a sort of wellness program. Andy, i'm curious, if it's not a secret...what percent of FHB subscribers is actually making a living from the trades?
*No secret there. About half are carpenters, builders and the like. The rest are about evenly divided between architects and seriously interested homowners.Andy
*The 'flip' side of consumer education - Did you stop to consider that the i reasonthat manufacturers are addressing this for more highly-engineered products is that in the last 10 years the big box stores have managed to convince the average person that they can do just about anything. Example - HD's 'tree house' commercial where the guy (starting out without even a hammer and no experience "I'm in trouble here") is going to try to live up to his son's expectations to build an elaborate tree house. He has the right to do it (and possibly fail) but don't be surprised when the manufacturers want to say "Uh, don't use I-joists for tree houses" etc.Jeff (watching carefully for orange helicopters)
*i industrial arts should be brought back in high schools rather see shops required for everyone
*There's ignorance that you can treat, but then there's stupidity as a malignant condition. If i were the manufacturer, i would use boilerplate, too. Then i would go out and aggresively train folks to use my product safely. Advertising: I see alligators walking up to women with dry skin, and i saw a guy jump off a cliff to catch the dew. I see cars driving 120 mph on country roads on TV, but i don't do it bec my state has invested a great deal on money in cops, guns, and licensing to insure i have a clue about driving. Granted, it's not enough to keep accidents from happening, but it's a better solution than to say we all have to get around in taxis driven by professional drivers, and if that doesn't make you smile...
*Shoot fire, I think homeowners should be able to buy dynamite! Seriously, in spite of the way I sound at times, I have absolutely no problem with DIYers. My gipes have to do with the following.Inspectors allowing sub-standard (meaning it will not work properly or safely) installations by homeowners. DIYers who will insinuate or outright accuse me (or other contractors) of being rip offs, then in the next breath they ask me to solve the problems they created through their shoddy work.I especially get tired of the above happening in public places. I am working on a response. Right now it goes something like this. "I want you to know I have no problem if someone wants to do their own work. As long as they know what they are doing. And someone with an attitude that there is nothing to plumbing and heating obviously does not know what they are doing and is dangerous." Then as I walk off I throw back... "Call me when you need bailed out"And they do. I have no time or tolerance for this kind of crap. Or the person who calls me for advice and proceeds to laugh off everything I say. I finally started saying, "well, if you know so much quit wasting my time" And I will hang up if they are one wee bit rude.On the other hand... I am all for DIYers and God forbid they not be allowed. There are areas you can't even wire your own house. I think that is just plain wrong.I am to the point where I put DIYers in 2 basic classes. Decent ones who for a variety of reasons want to do their own work but respect the pros because they (the DIYers) know enough about the subject to know they don't know it all. I will help this kind more than I should take the time for.The other class is the arrogant know-it-alls that think if a plumber can do it I can too and accuse all tradesmen of ripping everybody off, etc. These are character flaws and have little to do with the subject at hand. I have noticed this kind of person is also not very pleasant to be around in general. Now if you want to spout off about the sorry a$$ contractors out there.... save it! Because i can come off with more horror stories than you can! LOLSeriously, DIYer or contractor.... both have good ones and both have bad ones... I think in this thread alone we have seen some indication of both sides.
*I think I need professional therapy because I agree with everything splintergroupie is saying... LOLHave a good one splints...Now if I could just get her to agree with ME on issues like... well never mind!Later....
*WHW,My friend, there is a 3rd type of DIY. The very best kind........Former DIY.And my very best client is the former DIY who has been ripped off by a marginal professional. Marginal being a guy who says "Yup! I ken do it!" And lays on the price the Owner "feels" is correct.So, the thing to do is sit back, let the people make mistakes, let them spend week-end after week-end, sore and close to being fired from the day job, sorry they didn't listen to that "highly recommended professional". They are out there and they don't shop at HD anymore.
*I said "yep" with a grin on my face.
*Your question wasn't directed to me but I will attempt to explain what I understood him to say based on my personal experience.I did nothing but service work for a number of years. About half of my work was correcting BAD workmanship (some was years old and some was new).A lot of this work was done by so-called pros. Sometimes they had the pro back 3 or 4 times before they gave up and called us. I would guess of the corrective work I did about 40% was originally screwed up by plumbing and heating contractors with the balance mangled by DIYers.I was bitching about one guy in our office one morning after seeing his murderous work (literally!!!) and my boss said..."don't knock him, he gives us lots of work!" Of course he was joking but we figured it up that in one year we did about $25,000 of work correcting this moron's work. He is a licensed "professional". Where are the inspecters? I wish I knew.
*WTHI deleted my post (taking my own advice)didn't want to read the words differently then mentwish there there were better terms than "professional" and "DYI"BobL
*you saidwish there there were better terms than "professional" and "DYI" I am curious why you say this? Because that is the 2 clasifications that do work on a home besides a handyman.Of course a pro can do lousy work and a DIYer can do PRO level work. Am genuinely curious here. Care to explain? I think I may understand but do you have a better idea? This is not meant as a challenge but a friendly question so please take it as that.My call came in so I'm outta here for the day....
*just for the reason you said "Of course a pro can do lousy work and a DIYer can do PRO level work" either term can be used as an insult, that is unfair. And depending on the mood of the reader (hence my deletion read bad mood) can be misconstrued depending on the words around it which are written and not conveying intent that body language impart or being familar with the individual (writing style)BTW I think Handyman can be/is professionalProfessional can be used to denote liscensed, but everywhere a liscense isn't required for the same work. or the same intent (way to collect dollars bt the gov't vice way to attempt to insure some level of competence)
*still here...I agree except as follows.you saidBTW I think Handyman can be/is professional the word "is" assumes something that many times is not true. the words "can be" are absolutely true.
*As a great president once said, "It depends on how you define the word 'is'"...
*a "great" president? ahhh.... OK, whatever you say...
*that's why I used H instead of h
*"in our past lives, I worked as an engineering consultant and my wife as a project manager for large GC's. Collectively, we dealt with at least several hundred contractors in a dozen or so states. Our experience in this regard was not much different than in construction of our own home. This seems like a large enough sample to confirm that the majority seem lacking in either ability or honesty."bckellyl, It's clear the you and your wife have a great deal of experience interacting with contractors. It's also clear that I was mistaken in assuming that the problem you have had with the subcontractors working on your house was the result of a poor method of selection. Sorry. I'm still puzzeled, however, by your assertion that there are only a "small portion of able/honest tradesman" and when you say tradesman I assume from the rest of your post that you mean contractors, licensed and insured. It has been my experience as a GC for 30+ years that the great majority of subcontractors are capable and honest and that if a relationship of mutual respect is developed the main difficulty is scheduling. The longer I work as a GC the more clearly I see how the negative assumptions brought to a project regarding other professionals can sabotage the work. This includes the interactions between architects, engineers, owners, gc's, pm's, tradesmen, laborers, etc. As you well know, building a house is a compicated endeavor generally involving quite a few specialists and, I believe, requiring a high degree of respectful cooperation for success. If respect and cooperation are absent I believe that you end up with a generalized sense of mistrust, dishonesty , and poor craftsmanship. I hope the rest of your project goes smoothly. Do you have any pictures? ted
*bckelly1 If I am ever sick, I dont want you picking my doctors. YOU hired these people, you are responable for their lack of ability. Just because you have a nack for picking poor subs(maybe price), dont assume that all subs are inept.DAvid
*Ted,This past year our camera has been reserved solely for our now 1 year old daughter, but I'll try toattach an old progress photos below. As you say relationships are important. As a GC you're in just about the best position to deal with subs. Your repeat work is more important than that of a single homeowner so I'm sure you get preferential treatment. I know my wife had a good bunch of repeat subs for local projects when she was a GC. Also, over time I'd guess that you develop a feel for those subs you want working for you and those you don't. You have the opportunity to develop a relationship. For a one time project like ours, I'm not sure how to benefit from this type of developed relationship. You suggest that our attitude may have contributed to our experience. Who knows, maybe so. Maybe we expected too much. Maybe on our own home it became that much more important? I don't believe so, but definately possible.David,If you read my prior posts a bit closer you'll see that lowest price was never among our selectioncriteria. This is our first home and hopefully our last as well. Our principal criteria was to do itright. As I said before, if you feel that we chose poor selection criteria for our subs, I'd be gladto hear suggestions for a better process. I never said that "all" subs are inept. In my experience, something like 5%-10% are excellent, an additional 25%-35% are competent and honest and the remaining 55%-70% fall short in either performance or ethics.In my experience, picking professionals like doctors is much easier than subcontractors. First,you can ask them what school they went to and where they did their residency. The quality oftheir formal education says a lot about any professional. This seems true in the trades also. Seems like most union tradesmen that have undergone a formal training process are pretty competent. In addition, here in NY, professionals are licensed by the NY Board of Education,which is responsible for evaluating their credentials and investigating/prosecuting professional misconduct. A history of action for professional misconduct taken by this body against professionals like doctors is available to the public online. Most homeowners I know would be overjoyed if it was this easy to pick a decent contractor. Why don't you take the lead and promote an equivalent practice for quality residential contractors?
*bckellyl, very handsome house. Looks like it's turning out well even with the difficulties you've experienced. I've always loved the shingle siding look as I lived much of my life in Berkeley, Ca. where shingles were often used. The 2nd floor attic with dormers is also a nice feature as it produces such interesting non rectilinear space. Were doing a large remodel right now which is adding just such a space. And a basement besides. I've always wondered why the're so rarely used in Calif. In fact the house I recently finished for my wife and I was designed w/o a basement because of zoning constraints and I'v added a partial because it's so much more practical than a crawl space. Good luck with the finishes or perhaps the're already done as you indicated that this was not a recent photo (where these photos a whole winter ago?) Why such small windows in the basement? Anyway hope all is well that ends well.
My two cents...
diddidit, your not a race car driver but you can buy a car, right? Your not a chef but you can buy very sharp knives. My point is almost anything is dangerous in the hands of the incompetant and uninformed. Its not the gun makers responsibility to make sure some idiot doesn't blow his own brains out by accident.
Whalemania, you're missing the point. Step outside of your NRA box for a minute and read what's been said.
So you think its OK for a fella to build a car from scratch himself without knowledge of what makes a steering box work well in his particular application? No engineer's approval? When you drive it the roads, and give people rides, you are putting a lot of people in unneccesary risk. A car, and a house, are public. You can rant all you want about "private property", but that doesn't change the fact that 99.99% of houses will shelter people other than the person that built it. If you say "Well, they enter my house at thier own risk. They don't have to do it. Individual responsibility." Then I say that in order to be responsible, one must have knowledge of the situation. Tell me how Joe Visitor is going to have knowledge of how you built your house?
Tom
Edited 3/24/2002 3:30:20 PM ET by Thomas Moen
Let the buyer beware.