My builder has poured the concrete surround (outline, footing?) for my new house. Is there any way to know if it was done right? It was poured during some varying weather conditions here in Chicago area.
Thanks, Todd
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What makes you suspect a problem? Does it look bad, or are you just curious because of the weather?
You could have test cores cut out of it and sent to a lab for testing.
"Put your creed in your deed." Emerson
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
What is varying weather conditions?
The first 24 hours after a pour in freezing weather is somewhat problematic. The second day and the following three are even more so, if no addmix was used in the batch.
Tell us more of your concerns, and you are sure to get more specific advice about whether you need to have it core and tested.
Dave
I guess the core test is probably the answer, which means I can't tell anything from just looking. My concerns are not that specific. I've just heard horror stories from others, but not about our builder. Also, I was able to see the footings up close, probably for the last time. I didn't see any crumbling. To my eye, it looked ok.
And, as I mentioned, we had miserable weather the same week, including heavy wet snow, rain etc. The snow only lasted a couple of days. There is water in the trench on the lower elevation. The house is on an incline up from a lake. I was surprised any concrete had been poured.
Thanks
My two biggest concerns are not the weather or the weather.First is whether the soild were disturbed under the footing when the excavation took place. Footers should be placed on undisturbed soils. If the excavator went too deep, the backfill needed extensive compacitng.
Related to that is whether the soils were frozen when the crete was placed.
Suppose that you dug the trench and then left it for two weeks before forming and pouriong the footers. If the soil was damp and the weather freezing in the meantime, the soil immediately under the footing would have heaved, or lifted. So the new crete would be on souil with undtable structure and lifted above its normal elevation.
As soon as the soil thaws and load is placed on it, things sink back down. Now suppose that the excavator overdug and then the footers were placed after a couple weeks of freezing temps. That would be the worst of baad conditions.The second concern I would have is whether rebar was used in the footers.
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Well, at least I can answer that I saw ribar. I may talk to the builder about the other matters, and I can try to sound knowledgeable. Thanks.
T,
I'd like to offer you a bit of advice; don't take me too seriously as in serious enough to be offended.
There is nothing wrong with admitting ignorance. I believe one of the most ignorant things a person can do is "act" like they know something about that which they really know very little.
You hired this guy cause you trust him. I don't know if he is your builder or just a concrete and foundation guy.
Approach him. Tell him of your concerns and ask him to give you a brief education. If he is as good as you trust him to be, it shouldn't be a big deal for him to spend 20 or even 30 minutes with you in the hole explaining things to you.
Do not be adversarial. Be neutral, even a little dumb with him. After all, he IS the expert. I'm sure you posess some expertise that he knows little about. Ask him if he minds if you take notes will you talk.
You want to come back here and ask? Go ahead. Or take Piffin's post with you to develop your inquiries.
Don't be afraid to ASK. The ones that won't take a minute to answer your concerns (within reason now!) are not the folks you want building your house.
Don't forget to bring coffee.
Eric[email protected]
That is one of the best posts I have seen from you!Still trying to get past the E-box?;)
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My mitzvah for the day.
I have a knack for customer relations..................believe it or not![email protected]
Mr Contrarian asks: most footings in residential work have a little rebar running parallel to the footings run with the wall above, and none transverse. Exactly what do you think that rebar is doing, structurally?
Several things.Any place where there is uneven bearing under the footing, the rebar helps strengthen and transition.Any place where subsurface instability, known or unknown, threatens to crack the concrete footer, the rebar helps hold it together.When you say none tranverse, do you meran cross wise, like rungs of a ladder? I do tie cross pieces and don't know why anybody would not do so. gee, it must only take twenty minutes for the average foundation! If you are appealing to the "most guys don't so it must be right that way" I fail top see the benefits in that arguement. A lot of guys use no steel anyplace in the foundation walls either. Does that make it right?
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Mr Contrarian wants to know the spacing and size of your "ladder rung" transverse rebars in your footings. He also wants to know whether your Maine PE advises you on reinforcing for your concrete foundations, and if his seal is required on the drawings you submit for permitting.
Why?Doesn't Mr Contrarian have his own specs?My cross ties canvary according to subsoil type andfrequency of steps or corners. Might be every three feet or might be as much as eight feet.I only get a PE when I am in doubt myself. Most of what I do is a repeat of what worked in past similar.No seal required here.
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Gene, Man can you put that in english for some of us? BTW here rebar is required, either 2 footingwith bar verticle into the wall or one footing and one wall (24"wall) tied ladder like. I have done the verticle alingment for years with ties every 2-4'.
You could start with a non-destructive test with a Schmidt hammer. This will give an indication of the strength. If suspect, then take a core. Any geotechnical consultant will have such a device.
Is there any way to know if it was done right?
Hire someone with a good reputation and leave them alone or pay big $ to someone you will trust to check on the guy you don't. Of course if you don't trust the guy who's checking, just hire someone you really trust, to check the guy you don't trust, to check the contractor.
If you don't trust them then spend the $500 for an engineer to stop by and poke around. Then pay them another $500 to probe the soil. Just to be sure the concrete is at least as solid as a bed of pea gravel cough up another $500 for a core test. He may throw in a rebar scan, but may not have the equipment so he will sub it out for another $500. Double check the foundation is in the right place and flat enough to build on by hiring a surveyor for $700.
For the love of dirt, we've spent nearly $3,000! Hope you have plenty of money for checking on the contractor through the rest of construction.
If you didn't agree to anything special up front (before now) you'll get the bare bones minimum so don't expect a footer to look like anything more than a string of concrete. Many places don't require rebar (even vertical ties), forming other than a trench in the dirt, or anything approaching a structural concrete. Footers can be designed as being nothing more than gravel. If the soil type will hold the weight, a footer isn't even required.
Definitely don't try to apply best practices to what's most likely a low cost bid based on bare minimums.
Best of luck
Beer was created so carpenters wouldn't rule the world.
Don,
Realistic and well put appraisal.
rebar in a hoouse footing does nothing. most building codes does not even required rebar in a footing.Ok your panties in a wad, lets talk.Rebar does nothing until a load factor is applied to the foundation. a typical one floor house on good soil (key word) does not weight enought to bend the beam.I know, my house is solid concrete, it weight over a ton per lineral foot. my footers are only 1 foot deep. 18 inches wide, and using the calcultor no rebar was required BUT, Big BUT, enomous BUT. A lot of local codes required two #5. and since you got to tie footer to CMU, you use rebar vertical, and the two hortzontal.so in closing. they proberly rebar in the footing, it not doing anything , just laying there. But unless you on bad soil. I would not lose any sleep. and you can save $3000. as far as cores, if you core, I alway just charge $20 to break them.i do live in Alabama, so my advice might be worthless
Another big but-
You are familiar with evenly consistant soils that are sand in Floribama, right? No frost? Try spanning from ledge, across clay to ledge again, occasionally overdug and refilled and compacted....;)
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thats why I use the (key word)i do live in Alabama, so my advice might be worthless
Mr Contrarian again here. You said,
"Try spanning from ledge, across clay to ledge again, occasionally overdug and refilled and compacted...."
Foundations done on subsoil and rock with those conditions require engineering. Period. If you are not getting them engineered but instead are relying on your own intuition, you are doing your clients a disservice.
But the huge majority of those foundations being done on just plain dirt, whether the dirt be clay, gravel, or something else, require no steel in the footings. There may be local codes that require it, but from an engineering perspective, the steel is contributing nothing.
We are on a family-visit vacation in the midwest, and are currently staying in Evanston, IL. Some of the old 100-year-old housing here gets knocked down for a big new thing to be built, and when walking the dog yesterday, I stopped in at a jobsite on the lakefront where that is happening. There had been no resteel in the footings, and I was told the place was built in 1919.
My first building experience was as a teenager in the 50s, helping my dad build a summer house for the family. We had local help for the digging and masonry work, and the local boys advised us a little on footings work. No steel in that one, and I'll bet there had been no steel in anything built local there for the previous 50 years, because one of the old guys was about 70.
I'm certain this won't dissuade you from overbuilding your foundations by putting steel where it is not needed, but think of it this way. That addition you are putting on the old house, with it's heavily reinforced footing, likely has no more serviceable foundation under it than the one under the big house, which has no steel at all.
How much resteel is in the west pier of the Brooklyn Bridge, built in the late 1870s? That is the deeper one, the one where they had to go about 70 feet below river bottom to get to bedrock.
If you're spanning soft spots in the soil wouldn't it be a better option to add the rebar in the wall instead of the footer? If your footing is 12" deep, at best you have a 12" deep beam. If you have a 9' wall with two #5 bars 12" from the top and bottom, you now have a beam that is 9x taller which will allow you to span over the soft areas more effectively.
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
dont pay no attenion to Piffen, he means nothing by it. He been picking on me the last couple weeks. He been upset at me because he snow in and it 85 here. He still my idol though. I want to grow up and be just like him.i do live in Alabama, so my advice might be worthless
I ain't picking on you. I'm playing along with your schtick on the Floribamissippians!I was thinking about you today when I saw the barrow dith full of ice still. It looked a lot like a Louisianna swamp full of gators and moasins except for the white instead of algae oolour
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http://www.concretenetwork.com/concrete/footing_fundamentals/spanning_a_soft_spot.htm
Are we being led astray?
dave
"Are we being led astray?"
By whom?
Oh, the wall gets the rebar too!I have done repairs on houses where the footings had no rebar and the soils shifted from under in hillside conditions. The soil failure was the primary problem, but the damage would have been far less with rebar in the footing to prevent spreading from under.
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The concrete for a foundation doesn't need to be especially strong. Even if some surface freezing occurred, it's likely to be more of a cosmetic rather than structural problem.
The main issues with regard to foundations are:
1) Level, square, and properly placed -- you'd be surprised how often this is messed up.
2) Deep enough -- below local frost line.
3) Footings on undisturbed soil with sufficient bearing capacity.
4) An appropriate amount of reenforcing used in the footings.
5) Tiling of the footings, as required by local conditions.
oh hunter of todds,
Go straight to post from Eric Paulsen. Do not pass go. Do not collect $200. Follow advice given by Eric. If you land on a Piffin*, pay him $100 for uncovering every paranoid image which may or may not have occurred to you.
*Island dwelling Piffins often become stir crazy at this time of year.
Well, one thing I learned is I don't know the difference between footings and foundation.
I assumed the foundation was the floor and the walls the footings. What I saw was the foundation (walls) and footings (of course). My builder said he pours foundation throughout the winter as long as the ground isn't frozen. The daytime temps were at least a little above freezing the day(s) he said it was poured. We had an unusual spring snow storm with snow that lasted a few days, then it was pretty wet. There was water in the trenches. It's all well below grade, with wide trenches.
He says he needs at least 7 days before pouring the floors.
The "footing" goes in first, usually, and is wider than the foundation in most cases. Sometimes the two are poured together, either by adding a "bump out" at the bottom of the forms or by simply allowing the concrete to spill out of the slightly elevated forms at the bottom, filling the wider trench.
So convenient a thing it is to be a reasonable Creature, since it enables one to find or make a Reason for everything one has a mind to do. --Benjamin Franklin
the footings are the foundation. foundation is the bottom of the bottomi do live in Alabama, so my advice might be worthless
Some places the foundation is the footings and the basement wall combined.Wouldn't expect you lousibamoridians to remember that;)
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basement, whats that, aint never seen one, only thing below our first floor is a hound dawg and maybe a dead possumi do live in Alabama, so my advice might be worthless
"Some places the foundation is the footings and the basement wall combined"
That's how we form most short foundations around here: as one pour. You then have continuous rebar tying footing and wall, and the footing acts well in tension like the bottom of an I beam.
I'm with you. Rebar never does any harm. Hairline cracks don't keep me awake.
diff between footing and foundation...That is OK. Even dan got it mixed up too when he said "concrete for a foundation doesn't need to be especially strong."A footing is the first wide portion that the wall is supported on. Compare your foot to your leg and you see why. Your foot spreads the load out. A walll with no footing is more like Sweet Susie Q with stilletto heels. She is nice to look at but you don't want her wearing them on your new wood floor. Her heel needs to be stronger than your mocassin sole.
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Todd,
Others have given lots of good advise.
If you still have concerns there are a couple of things you can check without costing you (except your own time).
I believe you stated that you saw the open excavation before the pour. Did this meet the required depth and width?
Did the builder have a footing inspection? If so,pull a copy of the inspection from the local BI office. Note the date and time and comments. Call the concrete Co. and talk to dispatch and ask for a batch tickets. Compare the inspection report and batch tickets for the time and then look back at the weather report for that time period. The batch ticket will also have the mix and PSI rating.
This will help determine if the excavation was exposed to freezing and if the foundation was poured during freezing weather and help to know if the footing was full of water during or should I say before the pour.
One of the biggest problems I have with cold weather pours is the concrete showing up to cold out of the truck. (Help me out Brownbag>>> I belive it's not below 55 degrees) the batch tickets will not tell the concrete temp.
If the footing was not formed you can also "pot hole" on the edge of the footing to check for the correct depth of the concrete.
If the weather was a mix of rain and snow during the cure, I doubt that it ever got cold enough to effect the concrete. The temp. would need to drop a lot during the night to have any effect.
Thank you.