I did an extensive search through this BB already…honest…and picked up alot of good information, but still need some advice on a quote I got to form, prepare, and pour a garage-workshop slab/apron.
Specs:
Rural SE Minnesota
4″ 24×29 slab within an insulated existing Morton pole building.
4″ with 8″ thick perimeter edge 18×19 apron in front of double 8′ garage doors.
1/2″ re-rod on 2′ centers throughout, placed on 1/2″ PEX.
Base is compacted sand in building (already placed) requires minimal (1″-2″)additional build up with compacted crushed rock to reach level. Perimeter already insulated 18″ – 24″ vertically with 2″ rigid foam. Topsoil was removed before sand was placed, sand sat 3 1/2 months before building was erected.
Apron to be poured on compacted crushed rock, requiring additional build-up (0 – 8″) and compaction with crushed rock to reach level.
Supply and place treated 2×8 (fastened to columns 7’9″ OC) around inside perimeter of pole building to act as form and left in place (extending up from slab 3 1/2″) as bottom support for interior paneling. One 29′ side already in place.
Place 6mil vapor barrier and 2″ rigid insulation (owner supplied) on base within building.
Staple 1/2″ PEX (three 250′ loops owner supplied) to insulation, connected to contractor-supplied manifold and pressurized through out pour, install slab temperature sensor.
Supply, pour, and finish concrete within building and apron.
$3500 for labor, re-rod, forms, and concrete (17 yards?) sound about right? This is a ball-park quote verbally supplied Saturday, written quote requested today.
Anything I’ve left out? I think you guys will enjoy this one. Thanks in advance for whatever time you devote to replies.
Replies
I should keep my mouth shut but--
I'm seeing this stuff WAY more than we used to on this board. People come in here trying to validate contractors, or get lots of input about pricing, etc.
I think it's really annoying, and sure, the easy thing would be to ignore it.
But without being any more insulting to this poster, and with an attempt to actually help out, I would say that the main reason it's a bad question is because who the heck knows if this is a good deal--If they pour a bad mix, or don't do a nice job of finishing it, well then it's a rotten deal. An assumption is that they've got site access and can take the trucks right to the pour?
If it's a first rate company, and it turns out really nice, I think it's a fair deal for sure, by Southern Wisconsin standards.
I'll give credit to JohnnyD for providing some detailed information, something that is usually lacking. But the price of a job like this varies so much from one location to another, and one job to another, and one company to another, that it's fairly useless information for us to confirm.
Probably wouldn't be too good a deal if it was the first time they ever did something like this, eh?
Johnnyd - what about a spec for the finish of the slab: machine trowel, light broom, etc.
Maddog - you're partially right, but I think a polite response would be to verify his price based on whatever assumptions you see fit, such as site access, good batch mix, etc. I don't have any personal insight, but if I did this kind of work, I would respond that it's a reasonable price for my part of the country, or it sounds low, or whatever. If he wants to take our response as gospel, considering that we have not seen the site and don't know what the concrete or labor costs are for rural se minn, then he's a fool. But he's asking for opinions. So in your opinion, is the price reasonable?
Do it right, or do it twice.
Well put.
I gave a separate opinion about the price, and regardless of that I can assure you that I do not think JohnnyD is a fool at all.
A fool wouldn't even think to ask, and if he did, he wouldn't have all the info that we were given, and would have reacted poorly to what I said (which he didn't) and wouldn't listen to what advice was received. I can tell that this is not how Johnny ticks. He's got a good plan. Shoot, a fool wouldn't even have thought of the siding nailers or if he did, wouldn't be treated wood!
I guess he was right-maybe we are gonna have fun with this one.
Cheers,
Dog
The fool part would come into play if he took an opinion from here and went to the contractor and said "see, these guys can do it for $xx so how come you can't?"Do it right, or do it twice.
True. I am always hopeful that card doesn't get played but am sure from time to time it has been.
I've been really careful lately about the various perspectives on the forum, because as a contractor I don't need to butt heads about some issue, especially a monetary one, that a prospective customer comes up with because he was getting too much, or the wrong information on the internet. I don't want to be the one giving it especially. But most of the advice should be considered as worth what was paid for it.
I really don't think this was his intention here. Maybe he was fairly sold on this contractor because of things beside the price, which is great, and was seeking some confirmation to make sure he wasn't getting burned instead of shopping bids to a number of contractors. I almost would prefer that situation because I don't like being price shopped any more than the rest of you guys, so if the internet advice helps to keep this to a minimum, so much the better, as long as it can be apples to apples, etc.
That's where it gets messed up, usually.
You got it right on the money here, Mad Dog.
"I really don't think this was his intention here. Maybe he was fairly sold on this contractor because of things beside the price, which is great, and was seeking some confirmation to make sure he wasn't getting burned instead of shopping bids to a number of contractors. I almost would prefer that situation because I don't like being price shopped any more than the rest of you guys, so if the internet advice helps to keep this to a minimum, so much the better, as long as it can be apples to apples, etc. "
On this project so far, I've contracted an engineer, well digger, excavator for water line trenches, drain field and septic, electrician, Morton Buildings, (that's a LONG story...later), and am right now contracting a design/builder for phase 2...and have not ONCE price shopped. I don't have time for that and niether do the contractors.
Do most of the electrical, all the plumbing and HVAC, all the drywall and finishing, plus trim and painting myself with help from family and friends.
Busy as it's been around here, the guy that calls me back, comes out for a look, and seems to know what he's doing, is the guy that gets the business. Most of these guys were referred by others doing houses in the area and I had prior experience with rough dollar numbers so I didn't need to bounce most of those quotes off the web. This concrete one is different...DW had some doubts about the price and I couldn't back it up with any prior experience...hence the note.
Sorry to rant...I don't think you guys take enough credit for the real service you're providing to guys like me...especially after those long days. One of my best friends works as a bid preparation and customer/sub relationship manager for a high-end remodelor...he gets a kick out of what I tell him I pick up on this board, my job now is to help him get set up on a new computer with DSL so he can participate too. I'd get back in the business myself if my body (56 years) could take it...so I'm trying to get the best of both worlds...a good steady paycheck, not too many back aches, and with also the pleasure that I know most of you get from participating in "fine" building.
Thanks again...I'll make sure I specify light broom, and the mix...should I go 3000 or 3500? Any one had trouble with fiber in concrete sticking out and making it uncomfortable to work (kneeling, sliding under vehicles etc)?
I'm glad you replied...gives me more of an indication whether or not I'm wasting my time posting on this board...and probably why there's been only one response from what seems to be a fairly knowledgable and active group.
All I really wanted was an opinion on the ballpark quote and to see if I had left anything out. Thanks for yours.
The guy was referred by friends, I can inspect his other jobs, the site is 10 miles from the plant on good roads with solid crushed rock 500' driveway right to the site. Plenty of room to back around or back all the way up the driveway. With a shoot extension they can run almost to the back of the garage.
If you ya'll don't have time to run a few numbers and click "post" fine by me. No offense taken. Scope of the board well established.
Hey JD don't take it personally. Don't forget that you have posted ona Monday, during normal working hours. Give the guys a chance to get home and wind down.
Do it right, or do it twice.
Johnny,
I would not want to hint that it's your fault at all. Your question was honest and I used that moment to vent on what I've perceived to be happening a lot here lately. It has nothing to do with your project and I don't mean to divert any help from you. Sure, it's worth a crack at our two cents to see if it's thought to be reasonable, I guess no harm in it.
Anyway, by the way your job is spec'd, I would be surprised if the work wasn't up to snuff because if the concrete contractor included all that stuff on his own behalf, or even if it was mostly spec'd by you, it looks like there is a pretty clear plan.
Good luck with it. It always depends on scope and use, but in my opinion, good quality concrete finishing is valuable, and if this project is one where someone would appreciate high quality work, I think the price is good. If a less rigorous finish would be perfectly acceptable, maybe it would be smart to look at some other bids but I think the quality of work is more important than the money. I can see a thousand dollar difference from one garage pour to another sometimes, but most homeowners probably don't care enough to warrant it.
Oh, I didn't notice if you were looking at fibercrete or just going straight rebar. Fiber does cost more per yard, though I'm sure you are aware of that.
MD
FWIW, I normally avoid the questions asking for pricing advice, though not for the same reasons exactly as Dog. I deeply respect his opinion here. He was adressing a problematic situation and trying hard not to insult you. I don't have any idea where any body else is, but I just worked an eleven hour day. Today was the sevenbteenth day since the first of the year that was suny all day so we've got catching up to do on jobs. Sometimes it takes a couple of days to get answers. We don't just sit here waiting around for questions.
My reason for avoiding this kind of Q is that it is usually after the fact and the HO is trying to beat the contractor down. Without being aware of all the little variables that can double the cost of a job, and what was said by whom, my opinion would be worthless anyway.
But your Q here doesn't appear to be of that type to me. Yes, it's more or less in the right ballpark. Ther important thing is recommendations and seeing his other work, possibly talking to other customers he has had.
I have Qs for you though. just to clarify, it looks like he will bring in the fill and compact it for that price. Whose equipment? rental fee on compactor? Or do you just have a pile there and a shovel handy?
It also appears that he is the one respoinsible for running the PEX, and that you want it placed on the comp[acted stone? Maybe you want to use sand instead for final levelling. Sorry if I misunderstand..
Excellence is its own reward!
Thanks for the vote of confidence Piffin. Right back at you on the respect issue.
I was assuming that the concrete co. would be responsible for the fill and compaction, but will wait to see what the final word is.
17 days of sun? Geez, it's been kind of a miserable year for weather here too but can't be even close to that bad. Yuk.
Dog
coast of Maine is famous for its miserabble weather but this winter and spring are way overboard. I had plenty of indoor winter work but mnost of my stuff is outside now. even a little cottage camp redo is too small to put tools inside so I've tented in the front porch - Of course, I had to build the porch in the snow and wait to roof it on a rare warm day six weeks ago..
Excellence is its own reward!
I have Qs for you though. just to clarify, it looks like he will bring in the fill and compact it for that price. Whose equipment? rental fee on compactor? Or do you just have a pile there and a shovel handy?
One load of which not all will be needed, very little compaction required, and equipment rental for compactor and bobcat is included in the quote.
It also appears that he is the one respoinsible for running the PEX, and that you want it placed on the comp[acted stone? Maybe you want to use sand instead for final levelling. Sorry if I misunderstand.
He will staple the PEX to the rigid, which is over the sand/stone.
Hope you have sun again today...it's sunny and cool here today.
Johnny -
I just completed the slab for a new shop I'm building. Installed PEX for future slab heating. My heating contractor/supplier suggested installing it *over* the reinforcement rather than under. It's tied to the reinf. with plastic "zip" ties. I had initially spec'd #4 rebar @ 16"oc each way. The finisher suggested 6x6/10/10 wire mesh instead which I accepted given that he furnished it in sheets rather than off a roll - the latter being difficult to chair accurately to the middle of the slab where it belongs. Mesh provides nearly the same percentage of steel in the slab and is a lot quicker (read less labor = less money). The PEX is pretty tough stuff and can take a lot of traffic abuse during placing of the concrete. Not sure how well staples will hold in the rigid insulation but being full of air, it does, as I'msure you're aware, want to float to the top. Doubt that it would float the rebar, though.
Why above the reinforcing? Dunno but seems like you'd have a little faster recovery time if the heat source is nearer the surface. Just so long as it's got min. 3/4" coverage.
...........
Dennis in Bellevue WA
[email protected]
Dunno, but that's they way they seem to like to do it around here. Neighbor down the road (works for a commercial builder) put in a whole house RFH system in a slab that way, with PEX under re-bar. Had some of his commercial concrete sub buddies come in and do it for cash on a Saturday. Beautiful job...that's the way the subs wanted it too. BIL did same for friend's house in the area. My buddy that works at the concrete plant in town says forget the mesh, use re-rod. My concrete sub (the one in question) did HIS OWN that way.
'Course, I don't want to bring up to these guys that I read on the internet that folks usually do mesh. Think if I was going to DIY this, I'd use mesh with wire ties...but my back can't take that any more. When I was a young buck I used to be able to wheel a dripping full 'barrow around with good control. Maybe I should have stopped at 3/4 full :<(
About the heat transfer...application will be to keep garage at 50 degree constant after it gets REALLY cold, with wood stove/LP forced air for in-between and if I really need to bring air temp up for varnish and the like. So I'm not too worried about reaction. Different story if I was going to be padding around barefoot...but this is a garage. In Phase 2, the house, I am considering low mass (wood/aluminum/PEX sandwich) for better reaction.
Edited 5/20/2003 11:02:07 AM ET by johnnyd
I'm not particular whether I get a rebar grid or 6x6 rewire tied to rebar at perimeter. Either works for me, I provide a well compacted base for them to work on. I let them decide which kind or reinforcing they want to do. Personally, I like the rewire mesh for tying PEX to.
I'm still curioous about the PEX though. Is your heating guy providing a layout diagram? It's pretty important how they run and that all loops be close to equal in length. The heating engineers have fits if not. They can calibrate the manifold for anything but it is extra figuring and they would need to know what length each loop is.
If you are mavericking it, take a LOT of pictures before you pour and cover it all up
And Good Luck. Have fun Mortinizing!.
Excellence is its own reward!
Thanks...thought of the pictures. I've done a heat loss on this thing and came up with 3 250' loops of 1/2" on ~ 12" centers. Easy to keep the loops the same in a slab...tougher with multi-zone living areas.
By the way, have you had any experience with those "interlocking" split faced concrete blocks that are laid dry for retaining walls? Need to build a couple on this project...none more than 4' high.
Sorry, no..
Excellence is its own reward!
interlocking" split faced concrete blocks that are laid dry for retaining walls Are those the ones sold at Home Depot with the turn-down on the back edge to create an offset in the front? Might work for a small garden, but what's your definition of a retaining wall?Do it right, or do it twice.
Mainly to provide a drainage separation on a sloping (drops about 3/4" per foot) site. The grade of the driveway is established and comes within 6' of a planned foundation wall. I will need something about 2' high running about 20 feet long to help establish a drainage swale between the wall and the driveway. There are two other similar spots.
Really difficult to explain, but rule of thumb I'm hearing is that if your retaining wall is under 4', you don't need to engineer. (this will get some response!)
Information on this site: http://www.versa-lok.com/ indicates that these blocks, because they are pinned and stepped back, need only a compacted base. They call these walls "pre-engineered" because of the nature of the pins and step-back.
Maybe this is worth another thread...couldn't find too much on retaining walls searching this BB.
I like block like that. I've used similar--Mesa Block. Often the supplier will have it engineered for you if necessary. Here, no engineering/permit/inspection is required if you aren't connected to a building. At 4' or so, you likely aren't even getting into the geogrids and such. I like the heavier block (Mesa are 75#) rather than the weenie ones at the box stores. It's a better workout when you build the wall.
This is as close as I can come to kind of what I need to do:
http://www.kingsmaterial.com/images/rwtw_gallery8.jpg
Slab is done! 3 equal lengths (240 ft) of WIRSBO stapled to Owens Corning 150. Hooked up to manifold with 40 lbs holding steady. Slab sensor placed. 1/2" rebar on 24 inch centers, thick edge underneath garage door openings. Air entrained 4000 psi mix with a bit of accelerator. Nice slope to doors. 11 yards came on a front loader with a good driver able to precisely fill 'barrows for the three early 20's workers and late 30's contractor/finisher. Used power screeder, went around edges on stainless pans. Hit slab 5 times with power trowel. Finished last nite at 9:30, got up early to spread curing compond, second coat later today after 18X19 apron is poured.
Had a chance to get to know the guy between power trowlings. Turns out he's got $40K in recievables. Gave him some business advice...alot gotten from this forum. Tried to convince him he shouldn't feel bashful about asking for money up front, and actually advised that he charge MORE!
He gets my check tomorrow morning.
Glad it worked out.
Here's how it turned out:
Actually, my heating contractor said it didn't really make a big difference if the PEX was placed on top of or under the reinforcing, either mesh or rebar. Mesh us thinner so there's not an issue with it (the PEX) being too close to the surface if it's on top.
I originally spec'd the slab with #3@16"oc assuming I'd have a local concrete outfit do the work. Instead, the general foreman of one of my clients (a major concrete contractor in the Seattle area) moonlighted the job for me and I accepted his suggestion to use the mesh. Because? I could trust him to chair it properly, use sheets instead of rolls, and get it up in the slab where it belongs.
When all's said & done, if nobody offers you a cost savings to use mesh, and the job doesn't sound all that large to make tying rebar in it, then by all means, go for the bar. PEX lower in the slab will provide you with an evener heat across the floor, that's for sure.
Just don't let them dump huge amounts of water in the mud when the truck gets there. Too high a water/cement ratio leads to a dusting surface - which you probably know already.
I used "Cure & Seal) on my new shop floor and it turned out really nice. Helps to harden the surface by limiting the evaporation of water which also weakens the concrete. Once it's safe to walk on the surface, use a paint roller with an extension handle to apply the curing agent. Most finishers use a spray can but it tends not to be as even a coverage as rolling it on.
If you do use Cure & Seal (brand name) or anything like it, open all the doors & windows and don't hang around in the garage after you're done. It's kinda nasty stuff but sure makes for a nice surface on the slab.
...........
Dennis in Bellevue WA
[email protected]
Dennis,
I am not a concrete contractor so I wont comment on your qoute but....I am in the automotive business and I noticed that you said you might be working on vehicles, so I wwould like to make a couple of suggestions.
1. If there is any possibility of your wanting to install a lift in the building, you might want to check with some of the manufacturers to see what they recommend as far as slab thickness. I am pretty sure they like to see at least 5 inches. When I built my 24 x 24 garage at home, I went with 6" I know it was probably overkill, but it added very little to the overall costs and 15b years later there is not a single crack or other defect to be seen.
2. I would personally want a machine troweled finish. It is much easier to clean up spilled fluids etc, and much nicer rolling floor jacks etc on.
Good luck with your project,
Bill Koustenis
Advanced Automotive Machine
Waldorf Md
Thanks. I talked to my concrete guy this morning and accepted his bid, after looking at his work on his own shop. I also specified a slab temp sensor, so opening and closing the garage doors on a bitter windy January morning won't give the heating system a false call.
Sounds like I'll do the curing compound thing myself.
He may get to it next week if we get a rainy day.
Johnny -
In addition to the lack of spec for the finish (which has already been mentioned), there was no mention of the mix design - aggregate, cement content, slump, etc. Will they be using an accelerator to speed finishing? Curing agent?
Dennis in Bellevue WA
[email protected]
I don't usually get involved in this type of question either, simply because regional differences are so great my answers are meaningless.
But since I live in the land of mud, mortar and cement, where everyone with a wheelbarrow is a cement guy...and since I had the most joyous concrete experience of life this week, thought I'd respond.
Hired the highest bid...30% over the lowest. A pro, an artist. A grown-up. The first phase of a slab-on-grade, RIF heat house is tedious. We mostly do footers and stem, then pour the slab after the radiant and plumbing is roughed in. Lots of coming and going by the three guys involved. Lots of scheduling.
Yesterday, the RIF, plumber and concrete guy all there at the same time. No problem, all pros. All knew each other.
Today, the concrete. Everything better than I expected. Inspector complimented it. Turn-downs deeper, more reinforcing than necessary, more compaction than necessary. First truck is there, chute down. "Stop" he said. Made his guys pull up the wire and adjust the grade on one corner of the porch. I didn't even see it, but he did.
4pm I drive by to wet it down. He's already there. The boss, running my hose all by himself. "Just checking" he said.
So, it's true, isn't it? You get what you pay for.
ShelleyinNM
Nice story. You're right, sometimes it does pay to not take the lowest bid.
Do it right, or do it twice.
Unless I missed something, I came up with about 14 c.y. for the concrete slab in building and outside apron. My rough-up number always starts with $200 per c.y., and progresses upward from there depending on conditions, details, etc.
You seem to be in the right order of magnitude. Go and see a couple of pieces of work the guy did, and ask the clients how he operated. Did he come when required, finish in a timely manner, protect surrounding work, clean up?
Yep, 1042 sq feet/80 sq ft per yard= 13 yards, add one for the down turn on the apron. Looked at his own workshop slab this morning. Nice work. Verified it will be 4000 psi mix, light broom finish, heavier on the apron. Extra work includes putting down insulation, stapling PEX, installing manifold and maintaining pressure before, during and after pour. His brother will be doing the plumbing. Nice country boy and neighbor. Makes a difference around here.
Thanks...I'm feeling better about this as I go.
Johnny -
Broom finish in garage where you (I think) plan on working on cars? Or for a workshop period?
I'd re-think that if I were you in terms of sweeping and cleaning. An upcharge for power trowled finish would probably be appropriate. At least if my assumptions are correct, I personally would opt for a smooth, hard troweled surface rather than broomed.
As an aside, my heating contractor plans on pressurizing my PEX (for the house I'm remodeling) with air rather than water prior to and during the placement of the lt.wt. concrete fill over the tubing. Suppose in your case it wouldn't be a big deal to have a water leak but in my wood framed house, air makes more sense.
From the sounds of things, you're gonna have one nice job when you're done. Pays to do one's homework!
Oh - here in Bellevue (WA) any structural or retaining wall over 3'-6" requires an engineer's calcs for the building department. I'm licensed architect and did some permit drawings for my nieghbor's garage addition. I designed a 4' retaining wall along one side but the building department required an engineer's stamp. The engineer's design didn't differ at all from what I had spec'd for wall and rebar. But then, we kept an engineer working for a few hours (grin)
...........
Dennis in Bellevue WA
[email protected]
I just hate the thought of slipping on a too-slick finish, although the contrator's slab does have a nice steel troweled finish, so I know he's capable. BIL who has done alot of slabs recomended slightly rough surface. He knows what a clutz I am when it comes to tripping and slipping and falling.
Heavy decisions because it's so PERMANENT.
What did you pay for PEX tubing...materials/install labor? I'm looking at $870 tubing, $100 slab sensor, $250 manifold materials/install labor combined.
Johnny -
Sorry for the delay in reply; the Prospero server doesn't seem to want to notify me any more when I have a message on this board.
You asked about the cost of my PEX for the shop. The shop is 20x40. I paid about $330 for enough tubing to cover the slab at 12"oc plus the manifold. That doesn't include termination of the tubing to the manifold or any heating appliance hooked up to it. I only installed the tubing with the forethought of someday being able to heat the shop floor. Here in WA state, heating a shop isn't quite such a pressing issue as it may be in your neck of the woods. Thus this isn't a 'turn key' system. Only a partial installation that will be completed some time in the future.
Just this weekend I spent some time cleaning up my new shop slab (the shop is probably about a month away from completion). I suspect I'll be using more than a few anti-fatigue matts under some of the stationary machinery. This slab has a truely fabulous 'shine' which I can imagine will offer less than desirable traction when it gets a light coat of sawdust on it! (grin)
Your broomed finish isn't as permanent as you might think. A good terrazzo mechanic can put a beautiful finish on that concrete! (hehe) And in my case, I can always sand blast the slab.
Concrete is pretty hard stuff, but anything's possible - if you have enough money.
...........
Dennis in Bellevue WA
[email protected]
I been keeping quiet on this one because everything been in line, but I need to make one point. Mesh and bar, they both have different jobs, they cannot do the other job, cannot be swap out. it is not a either/or. mesh is designed to control the cracking of concrete. bar are designed to control the bending cause by loads. mesh will not control bending, bars will not control cracking.
Now my opinion only. I hate mesh I use fiber on all concrete work, even sidewalks. No labor saved will pay for fiber.