Conflict on the job: What would you do?
Hudson Valley Carpenter
| Posted in Business on
A minor job soap opera from my distant past, just to provoke some thought and discussion over a long weekend. I’ll finish the story, with all the drama, after everyone has a chance to add their opinions and suggestions.
OK, here’s the situation. You get hired to hang sheet rock for a small company, union wages. You’re the new man, about three weeks on the job.
The crew consists of a foreman, a married couple and you. The foreman carries only a tape measure. He’s a typical company pusher; hard as nails, quick to criticise, never satisfied with the amount of work accomplished.
The married couple work together, so you work alone.
The job is eight foot stand-ups with suspended ceilings later so no problem with you going solo.
Late one afternoon the foreman tells you that he won’t be in the next day, will not be available by phone. He gives you your assignment for the following day, telling you what his production expectations are, then he goes to talk with the married couple.
The following day the husband calls you over to a large room where he and his wife have just set up. He says that the ceilings in this room get rocked and that he needs a hand putting up the 12’X5/8″ boards.
His says that the foreman gave him the OK to pull you off your assignment and help him because his wife isn’t able to handle her end of a 12′ board, not doing ceilings.
The couple clearly aren’t drywall pros. Working together, they’re able to do stand-ups but they’re poorly prepared for ceilings. They have only a pair of empty 5gal pails and one ten foot plank for scaffold, an arrangement that doesn’t suit you at all due to height limitations and an old shoulder injury.
You know that, if you stop and help the husband, you’ll be losing an hour or more of time on your own assignment and that your efficiency will be very poor because of the lousy scaffold.
You also know that the foreman said nothing to you about giving this couple a hand and that, because there are only the three of you, it’s not something that he would forget to tell you.
So what do you do?
BTW, my decision got me fired.
Edited 5/23/2009 1:05 pm by Hudson Valley Carpenter
Replies
Call his cell phone
if no answer, leave a message, here is what the gig is - I'm helping them unless you call back say different.
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Call his cell phone
Thanks for reminding me. This happened before cell phones so I went back and edited that out.
Oh sure!
This is like playing cards with Gramma - she liked to change the rules in the middle of the hand to favour her.;)OK, new game -
I mostly go along and get along with a smile on.
Am I getting paid by the hour or piecework?
Former I say sure and help them out.
piecework, I trade if they agree to a trade of piece count.
otherwise, I say "Sure, thing, as soon as I get this room done".
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
What's the wife look like?
Remodeling Contractor just on the other side of the Glass City
LOL.
Someone is gonna have dirty knees.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations
"If Brains was lard, you couldn't grease much of a pan"Jed Clampitt
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Don't laugh at me ... This is very important info in the big picture...
Some benefits are non-taxable...Remodeling Contractor just on the other side of the Glass City
What's the wife look like?
Wife's cute but the mother of three teen-agers, no spring chicken and too small for heavy work. Her husband is a powerful six foot ex-marine, not pleasant when crossed. He wants the extra paycheck so he carries his wife instead of some lesser male partner. That usually works but not when he's outside his skill set and poorly prepared.
Mother of three aint pertenant - I got a mother of three and you wouldn't believe what I can do with it...
If he's such a toughguy let him hang it himself - I aint tough and I do...
Honestly, If he can't pull it off, or work out a way for all three of you to get the gross of the task handled, screw him. He's the one who is in a position of non-performance.
I'll work with anyone to achieve a common goal, but, if you aint pullin'and pushin' - you're on your own.
I'd prolly help him rough in the ceiling, get back to my workload, rough them in too, and tell them to finish it ALL off - Favor for favor.Remodeling Contractor just on the other side of the Glass City
If he's such a toughguy let him hang it himself - I aint tough and I do...
That's what I'm thinking. I've never been in the Marines, but I've hung 12' rock on the ceiling myself after I stocked it myself.
I also have a wife and I typically insist she doesn't help me. http://www.quittintime.com/ View Image
Jhole just a thought here... but you need to go get laid, thats two posts in less than 30 minutes you asked what a female looked like......
Edit...... oops couple posts later and your bringing an ol'lady into the picture so maybe its a dry spell for ya???
Edited 5/24/2009 12:31 am ET by xrcyst
My first inclination was to tell him to run down to the rental store and get a panel lift so he could do his job.
Second would be to suggest a trade off. You help him lift and secure the ceiling - not screw the whole thing off - while his wife, who can do the 8' standups, goes into your room and does that (if you think her work won't need to be redone).
If those don't work, call the boss - he carries that cell, right - get the straight scoop from the horses .....
well you don't say what your assignment was for that day but i would have helped the guy on the condition that the wife do what you were supposed to accomplish.
well you don't say what your assignment was for that day but i would have helped the guy on the condition that the wife do what you were supposed to accomplish.
Other than one or two rooms with rocked ceilings, the job was all 8' stand-ups, only. Before that day, I hadn't known that any ceilings got rock.
The wife was not able to stand up an 8' board by herself. The husband was strong enough to lift a 12' board overhead by himself but not able to hold it in place and screw it off alone. The wife was too short to reach the ceiling off their bucket scaffold.
Edited 5/23/2009 12:50 pm by Hudson Valley Carpenter
In that case i would have told the foreman that the wife shouldn't be there and that he should fire her instead of you.
OK, enough already, what did you do and why?
OK, enough already, what did you do and why?
HA! This is a soap opera, remember? I'll add small pieces to the puzzle, as you detectives ask the questions, but my actual solution and the calamitous results which befell me will have to wait until tomorrow or later, when everyone who's interested has had a shot at it.
<<the calamitous results which befell me>>so you told him no, his wife claimed you came on to her, he beat the snot out of you and they were the boss's family so you got the boot.
you told him no, his wife claimed you came on to her, he beat the snot out of you and they were the boss's family so you got the boot>>>>>>>>>>>>>.
You should get a medal for this answer!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
sorry. me no speak english
So is this supposed to be a "What's the right thing to do?" or a "What would you do?" or a "What did I do to screw myself so bad?" question?
If you changed flight plans like you change the rules of this game. the guys in the tower would send you to the Bermuda triangle laughing their azzes off!;)
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
It's a "what would you do?"
Just trying to offer a small, hopefully engaging, contemplation about surviving common group dynamic problems as an employee.
Not to say that a husband/wife team is common but...someone needing a hand with a problem that they ought to be able to solve themselves isn't unusual.
BTW: I've got a pretty good Bermuda Triangle flying story for you, one that I'll save for a future conversation, in person.
Edited 5/23/2009 8:26 pm by Hudson Valley Carpenter
>It's a "what would you do?"<
I'd wait a few days and see how it ends.
I've got a Mother of two that can hold up her end of the railroad tie!!!
In fact she held up her end of the ridge beam while my Dad and I fought over how to support the thing. DW told us to "SHUTTHEHELLUP and get on with it"
wasn't trying to beat you up - just having weekend fun and going with the flow
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
wasn't trying to beat you up - just having weekend fun and going with the flow
I understood that but I thought I'd take the opportunity to clarify and add a bit more information, to keep the flow going.
I was at a loss for any idea until I got to this post. Now I've got the solution.
I would have buillt the lady two deadmans and taught her how to jamb them up under the board when her muscleman hubby hoisted them. Then, with the two deadmans holding the load, both of them could have screwed the ceilings.
That instruction period would have burned ten to fifteen minutes of my day...which is easily made up somewhere.
I would have helped the guy.
You know that, if you stop and help the husband, you'll be losing an hour or more of time on your own assignment and that your efficiency will be very poor because of the lousy scaffold.
If it's really only going to take an hour or two, I would help the guy, then stay a little later to get my own work done. Maybe the other guy will help when he sees you are staying late to make up for helping him. Even if not, the good will and achieving the production goals will more than likely compensate for "donating" an hour.
I'd pitch in and get the job done.
If the foreman can't understand that-
I got better things to do anyway.
BTW, my decision got me fired.
You said "right after lunch" and neve came back?
~ Ted W ~
Cheap Tools! - MyToolbox.net
See my work at TedsCarpentry.com
Edited 5/23/2009 3:12 pm by Ted W.
3 of you getting union wages?
Make a deal with the marine to get the job done and split his worthless wifes pay.
"Make a deal with the marine to get the job done and split his worthless wifes pay."She had to be worth something. She was smart enough to marry a Marine.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
BTW, my decision got me fired.
Be glad (maybe you are) . The foreman is a knuckhead. There is no "right" decision here.
I probably would tell them that I was going to be finishing my assigned work first, and that if there was time after that, I would help. I would further explain that the foreman had given me a full day's work, and had not mentioned that I was to expect to help them.
I would've told the guy that whatever time you spend helping him, he has to spend the same amount of time helping you. You spend 1/2 hr with him, he helps you out for 1/2 hr.
Does not matter what you do your wrong in that its 2 or 3 against one{you}.
The Husband will ask for your help, After you are done he and the wife will gang up against you.
They will go to the boss and, or.
Deny you helped.
Say they did way more then you.
say you refused to help.
say they had to help YOU!!!!.
Union job??? with buckets?????.
Not any union job i was ever on.
However i was in a similar situation in that i hung rock with metal studs, We had a certain amount we had to do.
But like the Hebrew children we got less straw to make more bricks.
They put me in closet areas while the golden children got the straight hallways.
At the end of the day the foreman just looked at his rigged numbers.
I laughed
I would take 10 minutes, knock together a couple of tee braces and hang a sheet by myself. Say see, easy, and you got a helper! Then go about my buisiness.
I agree Jayzog. Great minds think alike LOL!
Here's how I think it played out:
Nice guy that you are, you helped. They met their quota. You didn't. Bye, HVC.
http://www.quittintime.com/ View Image
The original question was what would "I" do. I'm having a hard time placing myself in the scenario. I just simply wouldn't have been in that mess. Different messes, but not that one.http://www.quittintime.com/ View Image
Its not so bad being married to the mother of 3. Shes always focused on them and leaves me alone most of the time!!!!
The current Mrs CU was a little old to have more than one when she wrestled me to the ground and had her way with me.
I have another child with the 1st Mrs CU.
Apparently there's two women I didn't keep busy enough by your standards.http://www.quittintime.com/ View Image
Several of ya'll have gotten pieces of what was said, what I did and what the foreman said, the next day.
One astute observation that I'll concur with now, rather than waiting until the end of the thread, is that there was no "right" answer with this foreman.
I don't like games, puzzles, etc., or nasty power drunk people. I would have helped out the couple and if the foreman fired me for not completing (what he thought) was enough of the task at hand, I would have kicked his azzz before leaving the site.
I think some scraps screwed into his ride parked out front would get his attention....you know, so no one 'steals' his materials.
Good old Piffin screws about every 6 inches to kind of 'hold things together'.
Especially on the roof, er, I mean ceiling.
I'm not flippin' you off.........just counting cubits
I hope you did not go "potty" in the buckets at lunch!!!!!;]
I hope you did not go "potty" in the buckets at lunch!!!!!;]
That's SOP for drywallers, would lose his rockers card if he didn't.
I would've told him something along the lines of bringing the right tools to the job. After all you brought all the tools you needed to the job.
Family.....They're always there when they need you.
There's only one deal that works for me; The three of you bang out the HVC quota first, then move on to the ceilings.
The awful thing is that beauty is mysterious as well as terrible. God and the devil are fighting there, and the battlefield is the heart of man.
- Fyodor Dostoyevski
I thought about it.
I'da said to the Jarhead, if you can't figure it out, lemme call a Squid.
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations
"If Brains was lard, you couldn't grease much of a pan"
Jed Clampitt
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That'd work, LOL
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
What kinda guy makes his wife hang sheetrock?????
or
What kinda woman won't let her big tough baby go to work without her tagging along to keep an eye on him.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Maybe she was afraid of all the other woman that hang sheetrock!!!!!. Come to think of it i have never seen a Woman hanging sheetrock , just rumors!!!!
Buckets and a plank, eh? Ridiculous.
I'd like to think I wouldn't help them, but I'm a soft touch and would probably trade some of my time for some of theirs. The inherent problem is that however you slice it, the wife is idle while the two men do the ceiling.
The logical thing to do with the whole job in mind is to help them. One guy is down for an hour instead of two not getting anything done.
Therefore helping them would be the wrong thing to do and get you fired.
The proper thing to do is nothing at all. Lie about everything. Get in the way of progress as much as possible. Blame everyone else including the foreman. Then you can ascend to a management position above the foreman.:)
I notice nobody has mentioned the bit you put in there about the Marine claiming the supervisor had authorised him to borrow you for this ceiling. To me, that's a key element.
Here's how I would have played it: Since this guy was a Marine, I assume he could read and write well enough to put his relayed 'orders' from the absent 'lieutenant' in writing.
He wants me to violate the verbal orders I've received, and claims that this is legit, authorised by the super? Okay, bro. Put it in writing, and all three of us sign it, and then I'll help you. So if you're lying, you get fired and not me.
Other than that, I follow my orders. If I get done early, I'll give you guys a hand. But I will do my own work first.
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
The proper thing to do is nothing at all. Lie about everything. Get in the way of progress as much as possible. Blame everyone else including the foreman. Then you can ascend to a management position above the foreman.:)
Clearly the correct answer....... HVC did say this was a UNION job. Common sense need not apply.
Yep- They say you rise to your level of incompetence. I'm gettin set to hit the big time.:)
The couple clearly aren't drywall pros. Working together, they're able to do stand-ups........... but they're poorly prepared for ceilings.
The guy has one bum arm......or only one arm. ???
Regardless.....under the described circumstances (ceiling involved)......I'd suggest you all work together...on all of the work that day.
Edited 5/24/2009 10:08 pm ET by HootOwl
How long is Hudson going to milk this?
OK, seems like everyone's done. Interesting and enlightening to me, some of you recognized the job-drama well, while others hit on the same solution I did. Taken together, your posts provide a pretty complete picture of the proceedings.
So...about an hour into the morning the Marine comes by and says "gimme a hand for a minute".
Working union drywall jobs means making a daily quota, stated or not. If you miss your allotted number any particular day, you'd better exceed it the next. So I wasn't happy when, the first time the foreman was absent, a guy who was working with a partner wanted me to help him out.
I stayed put and asked, "Yeah? What do you want"?
"I need a hand putting up this ceiling. The foreman said I should tell you to help me when we got to this ceiling."
"That's all news to me. He hasn't said anything to me about doing any ceilings or about working with you either."
The Marine doesn't like the way this is going, not at all. His patience is quickly running out so he says, "Well he left me in charge and I'm telling you to come and give me a hand."
I still haven't moved. "Oh sure. Now you're in charge too."
"That's right!", he blusters, his temper beginning to show it's uglier side.
I'm smelling a large rat in this deal, me being the cheese. Why wouldn't the foreman mention this to me? It only makes sense that, when something different comes up which involves me, that he'd say something. It's not like he's too busy with only three people on his crew. Plus he knows he'll be absent when the husband and wife get to the ceiling.
So my quick assumption is that the foreman told the Marine that he'd be gone the next day, then asked him if he and his wife could handle the ceiling in the next room they'd be doing. And, pressured as we all were to produce, the Marine said "sure", figuring that he'd coerce/demand that I help him do the ceiling and make their quota.
Nonetheless, I figure I'd better go look at the situation to see what kind of compromise might be possible.
I follow him down the hall and that's when I see that all they have is the bucket scaffold, the same arrangement that we'd all been using to screw off the tops of the 8' stand ups.
This isn't uncommon but most pros use horses and planks, hanging the ceilings with the board held up on their heads to begin with. That's the way I'd learned to do ceilings and, with my old left shoulder injury, it was the only way that I could do them.
I had a pair of horses at home that I'd built to my height requirements, with steps on each leg to make it simple for two guys to mount the scaffold while carrying a board. I hadn't thought to bring them because, as far as I knew, we weren't doing any ceilings.
So I said, "Sorry, I can't do ceilings off of a low scaffold like that. I have an old shoulder injury that doesn't allow me to lift anything above my head with my left arm."
"Bull Shirt!" says the Marine, "you've never said anything about that before".
"It never came up."
"Well....you can just hold up your end with your right arm. I'll get my end started, then move down to your end."
"That's not going to work for me. I've got my forty boards to get done today and I can't waste that much time, just holding up one end of a board while you try to screw it up."
He returned to his "I'm in charge...yadda yadda..." while his wife stood stoically by and I tried to figure out a better plan.
"Hey", I interrupted him, "You're a big guy. Can you hump one of those 12's up there by yourself?"
"If I have to, yeah sure, but you're here so I don't have to".
"I got a better idea. I'll be back in a minute."
So I went to the gang box, got out a circular saw and soon had a deadman/T brace made up. I took it back to them, explaining how he could slam one end of the board in place while his wife used it to hold the other end, tight against the ceiling. Even when I told them that it was an old trick, he wasn't happy. But she was impressed.
"Let's try it", she said with enthusiasm.
So, grumbling at me, he hoisted the board he had prepped, climbed on the plank and humped it in place. I was ready with the deadman, to make sure that it would be put in place promptly. Stuck between the ceiling and the floor, the deadman steadied that end of the board and prevented it from moving.
The Marine still didn't like having to hump the boards by himself but I wasn't listening to any more of it.
His wife was delighted to find a way to be useful. She thanked me several times that day, every time our paths crossed when her husband was otherwise occupied. She was/is a good person who enjoyed working for a living, even when she had to put up with her husband's BS.
So, I went back to work on my assignment, satisfied that I'd come up with the best solution without sacrificing more than one board from my quota to do it. I wasn't sure how the my interaction with the Marine would play out, when the foreman returned the following day but I figured I'd done the best I could, to keep everyone working and producing.
And???The best reward for a job well done is the opportunity to do another.
And???
That's enough keyboard time for today. It takes me some effort to make sense of that much of it, in writing anyway. The conversations that followed are even more peculiar and less rational so I gonna rest up and give it all my best shot tomorrow.
What does this guy being an ex-marine have to do with anything? Is he supposed to be some kind of tuff guy because he was marine? He sounds like a d!ck, marine or not.
Joe Carola
It's a way to describe him and something about his personality without using his name.
It's been my experience with every guy I've known who joined the Marines and went through boot camp in the sixties, that they became heavy handed and domineering, in reaction to any kind of opposition. This as a result of the indoctrination they went through.
It's been a matter of some concern to me for most of my adult life, that these great guys were turned into a brotherhood of dedicated warriors by our military leaders, then left to fend for themselves in our world, without de-programming or organized support, after their time in service was over.
Their internal struggles and suffering is something that I'm usually reminded of at times like Memorial Day. Just this week I learned that one long time ex-Marine friend had passed so this Memorial Day has more of his life in it for me.
Edited 5/25/2009 8:01 am by Hudson Valley Carpenter
I personally knew 3 who returned from Nam and offed them selves in less than 3 yrs. They ain't all bad, but many saw some carp that would give you the running shids on a daily basis.
Like night mares where ye hear the screams and smells of burning elephants..
I don't bash Marines as hard as a lot of Naval guys I knew.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations
"If Brains was lard, you couldn't grease much of a pan"Jed Clampitt
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It's been my experience with every guy I've known who joined the Marines and went through boot camp in the sixties, that they became heavy handed and domineering, in reaction to any kind of opposition. This as a result of the indoctrination they went through.
No one will know what he went through unless they went through it themselves. With that said, there's no reason why you or anyone else should have to put up with his attitude and the way he talked to you.
It's a hard postilion your in because you are an employee, so you have to be careful how you say things and handle them. If you were a sub and this guy talked to you like that, then you tell him to GFH!
Joe Carola
You need to get a life............Whew............
You need to get a life............Whew............
Back at ya.
So what was the reasoning behind you getting fired?
Ya, freakin' enticing as all get out!
What Happed!??
OK. Remember what I said before about this foreman? He was a company pusher first and last; overly critical, never satisfied. This isn't at all unusual for company foremen, particularly on union work.
In other fields of work they're called expediters. So there's a well known psychological profile for this kind of personality, one that can be tested for and recognized. Ash-holery in action, I call it. Even without the tests, a little company motivation-indoctrination and few bucks more per hour can turn a decent person into a company jerk.
So the following morning this foreman seems to be in a decent mood as we arrive and greet each other. I'm feeling OK because my previous day's work is within the anticipated production numbers. What I don't know is how well the husband/wife team did with their assignment or how they'll be judged by this guy.
Almost all union drywall work is done in commercial spaces so suspended ceilings are the rule. This job was a federally funded, long term care facility for seniors. It was a single story building with several wings, designed to look like a large version of a typical ranch home, built on about four-five acres in rural area.
As it turned out, a few of the rooms were getting drywall ceilings. It also turned out that I was the only person there with any real experience in residential drywall.
The young foreman had been with this union contractor for who-knows-how-long, apparently since starting in the trade.
He never admitted any lack of knowledge or revealed anything about himself that would tend to diminish his authority. Of course that meant that any blame for lost production, his main concern, had to be firmly placed on someone else's shoulders.
So, I get back to work where I'd left off the day before. He soon passes through on an inspection tour, without comment. Then he heads down the hall to where the husband/wife team have been working in the large central room with the drywall ceiling.
They had apparently spent way more time on the ceiling than he'd expected or been told by his office that it should take. I hadn't looked at it myself but I knew that they were still in that room at the end of the previous day, having done about half their expected production, so I was prepared for some unpleasantness.
Nonetheless, I was a little surprised when the foreman came storming back and asked, "Why didn't you help them with the ceiling?"
"I did help them as much as I could. I made up that deadman brace for them so that they could do the ceilings together, without taking me away from the work you assigned me."
"Why didn't you help "____" lift the boards and screw them off, like I told you?"
"Pardon me boss", I replied, knowing full well where this was headed but determined to keep it polite and logical, "but you didn't tell me anything about doing ceilings or giving them a hand. If you had said anything to me about that I would have brought the horses I use to scaffold residential ceilings."
"Oh nonsense. You don't need to bring scaffolding for one or two rooms. The bucket-planks are fine for that."
"The bucket-planks work OK for some people but I have an old football injury which doesn't allow me to lift anything overhead with my left arm. So I need to do ceilings with the board on my head."
"Why didn't you bring your horses with you the first day and leave them here?"
"I've never used them on a union job before and you never told me that we'd be doing ceilings."
"That's no excuse. You should bring all your tools to work, every day."
"I bring everything required by our union agreement. Scaffolding is the contractor's responsibility, as you surely know by now. Bringing my horses would be a courtesy, something I'd do on a small job like this to keep it moving. I'd only do that if you showed me the courtesy of discussing the ceilings with me before we got to them."
"Ah Bull Shirt", he shouted, "Courtesy doesn't apply if you want to keep your job."
"OK", I said, seeing the absurdity growing and wanting to bring an end to it, "If you're not happy with me or my work, why don't you go get me my check?"
"Maybe I will!", he replied, storming off.
There are specific rules in the union agreement, about laying off employees. One of them is that the contractor must pay off the employee in full, including benefit stamps.
So I expected my check the next day, and got it. Even though that lay-off meant that I would probably be out of work for a while, I didn't second guess my decision to take a stand. I'd done my job professionally without neglecting my co-workers so I was content.
For those who wonder why anyone would put up with such treatment:
1. Living in a low income rural area and being paid union wages and benefits which compare to those received by city tradespeople is a big help for anyone who has the knowledge and ability to do the work.
2. "Good" union contractors treat their employees with courtesy, using lay-offs alone to make their point about production requirements.
3. Non-union work in a rural economy is often spotty while union work is on a larger scale, often government funded jobs which don't depend on local economics. For example, West Point Military Academy is in my former local's jurisdiction so we all worked there regularly. Similarly, we built a lot of prisons and other large scale government projects.
4. Other non-union work can be found by commuting to populated areas, an hour or more from home, but that's contrary to the reason for living in the country so most tradespeople opt for union membership and the relative security it provides.
Edited 5/25/2009 7:17 pm by Hudson Valley Carpenter
Thanks for sharing your story
""OK", I said, seeing the absurdity growing and wanting to bring an end to it, "If you're not happy with me or my work, why don't you go get me my check?" "So... You fired yourself....Tact is the art of making a point without making an enemy..You are always welcome at Quittintime
So... You fired yourself.
Not so.
Without criticizing the husband/wife team, I put the truth about production into a fresh perspective for him.
I'd done my day's work well, quite a lot of material for one man, five boards/hr in standard sized bedrooms with closets. I knew that there were few others in my local who could match that quota.
So, unless the foreman was really as big a jerk as he'd been proving himself to be, he'd have to shut up and think about altering his attitude toward me.
But being a jerk whose method of operation was to scapegoat someone on his crew, every time his production numbers were down, he decided to show me up instead of laying off the husband/wife team, who were less productive.
It may have been that he was intimidated by the Marine, I don't know, but it all added up to me becoming the scapegoat.
As previously noted, this is not unusual among company foremen, particularly on union jobs. When production fails to meet goals, it's either the foreman who's at fault or one of his employees. As there's no arbitration available, the foreman wins by hiding his poor planning and poor communication from his supervisors in the home office.
"It's been my experience with every guy I've known who joined the Marines and went through boot camp in the sixties, that they became heavy handed and domineering, in reaction to any kind of opposition. This as a result of the indoctrination they went through.
It's been a matter of some concern to me for most of my adult life, that these great guys were turned into a brotherhood of dedicated warriors by our military leaders, then left to fend for themselves in our world, without de-programming or organized support, after their time in service was over. "
"In other fields of work they're called expediters. So there's a well known psychological profile for this kind of personality, one that can be tested for and recognized. Ash-holery in action, I call it. Even without the tests, a little company motivation-indoctrination and few bucks more per hour can turn a decent person into a company jerk. "
so ... U got fired because you hate everyone on the site and they all probably hate you. Which is OK .... I've been there too.
I just admit it and don't blame everyone else in the world.
for what it's worth ... if I was positive the foreman told me "get this done" ... I wouldn't have left my work area to take a look at what they needed help on, let alone make a deadman. When I get fired for not helping ... it's for really not helping!
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
so ... U got fired because you hate everyone on the site and they all probably hate you. Which is OK .... I've been there too.
I just admit it and don't blame everyone else in the world.
I think you missed something in there. It ain't about how much I liked or disliked anyone. It's about trying to survive as an employee while being honest, without blaming others and without sacrificing self respect.
Edited 5/25/2009 7:04 pm by Hudson Valley Carpenter
I got this iraq war marine working for me now, he 23 year old, nicest guy in the world, friendly, intelligent. But if I tell him go knock that 6'5 " guy off the scaffold, he climbing it like king kong. and he only 5"4"Nothing scares him. nothing bothers him. and he follow orders to the T's
<<got this iraq war marine working for me now, he 23 year old, nicest guy in the world, friendly, intelligent. But if I tell him go knock that 6'5 " guy off the scaffold, he climbing it like king kong. and he only 5"4"Nothing scares him. nothing bothers him. and he follow orders to the T's>>I'm building a motor for a similar young man now. Young former Marine, been chasing OBL around the Pakistan border with Force Recon until recently.Bright, cheerful, can-do, highly motivated, and everything is funny to him. Great guy.
"I put the truth about production into a fresh perspective for him. "
and how'd that work out for ya?
I'd fire anyone who decided I need a fresh prospective too ...
right or wrong.
you got fired because you have a bad attitude.
maybe that is warrented ... maybe not.
but you got fired 'cause they don't like you and they know you don't like them.
pretty simple.
and again ... trust me ... I been fired to.
usually the same reason.
but I admit I can be an ahole and I admit I don't like people as a rule.
and I'd also fire the dude that's hanging drywall for me if he thot he needed to adjust my attitude. You're hanging drywall ... shut up and work. You gotta realize there's a time and place for everything ... and when yer the guy being paid to hump rock ... it's not your time or place top much aside from hump rock and eat lunch.
Jeff
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
"OK", I said, seeing the absurdity growing and wanting to bring an end to it, "If you're not happy with me or my work, why don't you go get me my check?"
"Maybe I will!", he replied, storming off. --------- Daring the boss to fire you is probably a good way to make it happen. But what the heck, you might have a better future as a storyteller anyway.
I'm guessing you helped your co-workers and then worked overtime to finish your job.You submitted your time card and they fired you for asking to be paid overtime.
I've been thinking about this thread. Due to my personality type, it always seems like I'm always trying to figure out what the "game" is. Like I'm out on the basketball court with a tennis racket.I'm very literal and job orientated, so the orders he gave would have put me into conflict with what was best for the job.In reality, it doesn't make any difference what you did. IMHO, what happened was a result of some need the Foreman had related to his personality or job standing.BTW- How many people did the Foreman supervise?I've gotten into similar situations and when I looked back, the worst thing that could have happened is if I would have kept the job.I heard a Football Coach say once-"I don't care what you think I ought to do. I've got a nice set of luggage in the closet."
So I said, "Sorry, I can't do ceilings off of a low scaffold like that. I have an old shoulder injury that doesn't allow me to lift anything above my head with my left arm."
"Bull Shirt!" says the Marine, "you've never said anything about that before".
"It never came up."
Did your boss know about this injury and you not being able to lift anything above your head with your left arm before he hired you?
Joe Carola
Did your boss know about this injury and you not being able to lift anything above your head with your left arm before he hired you?
It was a union job. The contractor calls the union and requests the number of journeymen that they need. The union sends them out.
To answer your question, no I hadn't told the foreman about this minor limitation because it didn't interfere with the work I had been assigned. I certainly wasn't hiding it from anyone.
As far as I knew, from three weeks on the job, the entire building got suspended ceilings. If the foreman had told me that we'd be doing some drywall ceilings I'd have brought my horse scaffold, even though it was the contractor's responsibility to provide scaffolding.
As bucket scaffolds are non-standard and not OSHA approved, I would have been within my rights to refuse to work on them. But I didn't use that argument. I just said, after the fact, that if you keep me in the loop, I can be more productive. I'll even bring my own scaffold, if that's your preference.
Did you have any difficulty getting your next job?
Did this guy screw you around and give you a bad reference?
Did you have any difficulty getting your next job?
Did this guy screw you around and give you a bad reference?
During my union membership, jobs were assigned by the union business agent according to The Work List. No one was allowed to solicite their own work.
Lay-offs were always the way employment was terminated. It didn't carry any stigma nor did that employer have the right to refuse to hire the same carpenter again, on a future job.
Officially, quotas were not permitted. The union ideal is that every member is to be treated with respect. And that production is not to be used as criteria for lay-offs. In practice, the best thing that union guys can do is to all work at a reasonable pace and resist attempts to push them for higher production.
I cant remember what they wanted for amounts of Sheetrock on the union jobs. We had partners so it was 60 or 40 sheets but we also did it while arranging the steel studs. The sheetrock would go through an interior wall as there was no studs behind a wall where it met, we screwed the studs to the rock. So when you went to a room there were plates with the right amount of steel studs. Cant fill the quota when your in small rooms or closets but the foreman like yours just looked at the numbers. Most jobs i was on we did the walls then they came with the suspended ceilings after.. 2 years ago i did an addition and the rockers were busy , I asked my Taper friend if he could do the job, He said he could tape it but there were to many angles to cut and he could not figure it out, I told him i will hang it if he tapes it, They were all shocked i did the hanging, I acted like it was the first time;]
I understand very well the situation in rural areas with a limited amount of decent-paying jobs; it's the same around here. But that boss was a spherical jerk, and you getting 'laid off' for doing what he told you to do merits at the very least a grievance.
Especially on a govt contract, the union should have beefed the GC. Or, the hiring hall dispatcher could find himself temporarily and unexplainedly short of labour for that general contractor...until he 'improved his management team'.
'Gee, sorry, pal; there just ain't nobody available right now. Guess that supervisor you got who keeps laying off good men for no good reason is gonna have to get his hands dirty....'
A week of that, and the late penalties on a government contract would have eaten the GC alive. Sphincter-puss woulda been history....
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
But that boss was a spherical jerk, and you getting 'laid off' for doing what he told you to do merits at the very least a grievance.
His word against mine. I never heard of a grievance filed against a contractor for an unfair lay-off, not in the local where I worked or in that district council either. It's not done.
Especially on a govt contract, the union should have beefed the GC. Or, the hiring hall dispatcher could find himself temporarily and unexplainedly short of labour for that general contractor...until he 'improved his management team'.
Our local, like all carpenter's union locals I've encountered in the U.S. was run by the business agent. How strong they are as advocates for their members depends mainl on the economic climate in the jurisdiction.
My local's business agent was a good union man but weak with contractors.
While waiting in the office/hall to talk with him about work prospects, I twice heard him offering concessions to out-of-town contractors who were calling the local for the first time.
When I asked him about giving them options that weren't in the union agreement, he told me that he wanted to make them feel welcome and at ease with our local, to create good will. Too often the actual result was some kind of abuse by the contractor toward the working members.
Yeah, at this point I'm proud of my first
response- Pitch in and get the job done- Listen to all this petty back and forth! A world of conflicts and personal agendas all going nowhere. Doesn't matter if it's union or time and materials devote yourself
to your work. If the situation still doesn't work out, it will always be for the best.
You got my support.
Being an hardazz gets noone anywhere.
Even with bad bosses and other coworkers in need of communication skills.
+
I'm not flippin' you off.........just counting cubits
All grievances are management's word against labour; that's the way it works. When it goes to mediation or arbitration, the 'neutral' third party has the unenviable job of choosing who to believe. Which is why I suggested earlier that getting it in writing would have been the safest way to go for you.
Whatever. A union that doesn't beef unfair layoffs jsut plain isn't doing its job. The union is legally required to defend its members; that's one of the primary things you pay dues for. It doesn't sound like you were getting real good value for your union dues, does it?
OTOH, I've been in hiring halls where the first guys to ship out were always the guys with the biggest wad o' paper hidden in their fists....
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
All grievances are management's word against labour; that's the way it works. When it goes to mediation or arbitration, the 'neutral' third party has the unenviable job of choosing who to believe.
I imagine that it might be possible to go that route. I've just never heard of it being used.
The union contractors have had too much clout in the U.S. ever since Ronald Reagan fired the air traffic controllers and put the rest of the unions on the defensive. And most business agents are partial to keeping them happy, rather than fighting for their members.
Which is why I suggested earlier that getting it in writing would have been the safest way to go for you.
I liked that idea in principle but, in practice, it wouldn't have worked any better than what I did.
IMO, it's more likely that, had I stopped working on my assignment, to do only the deadman's job, we three would've ended up with much less production than what we got out of that day. Me holding up a signed statement from a fellow worker wouldn't have helped my case.
What was needed was better planning and communication between the foreman and the rest of us, as a group. But he chose to leave it all in the other guy's hands, without talking to me, so he got a less than adequate result.
It's been a long time since I was a union carpenter so correct me if I'm wrong.
All jobs have to have a foreman. So, when your foreman was taking the day off, you should have asked who the foreman was for the next day. Then, if he told you the marine was in charge, you wouldn't have faced this dilema.
It's been many, many years since I've been an employee but I still know all the rules LOL. The main rule that I always followed was to follow the instructions that the boss gave me and ignore all the rest. I would have stopped and donated my time to show the guy how to make the deadmen but beyond that I wouldn't have deviated from the assignment.
The trump rule that I've always followed was " I came here looking and I'll leave here looking." My conversation with the foreman when he came back would have been much shorter than yours. I would have simply told him that I followed his instructions to the "t" and if I heard the instructions wrong then "I am sorry" and "I did my best".
If he doesn't like my best, I'd defer back to the main rule..."I came here looking..."
Don't let it get you down. If the job was really important to you, you probably shouldn't have been so confrontational (telling him to get you your last check). Obvioulsy, the job wasnt' that important to you at this time.
Also, I would not sacrifice my dignity at any time. The first time the guy talked down to me in any way would have produced a one on one, man to man conversation and it sounds like he's the kind of guy that I wouldn't work for past that first man to man conversation. Life's too short.
All jobs have to have a foreman. So, when your foreman was taking the day off, you should have asked who the foreman was for the next day.
Technically true but then someone would have been taking his role and getting the extra pay. To force that on him and the company would've been poor judgement in my opinion.
I would have simply told him that I followed his instructions to the "t" and if I heard the instructions wrong then "I am sorry" and "I did my best".
I did my duty so I didn't have any reason to appologize. We both knew that he hadn't told me anything about ceilings. I proved that to him with my reasoning about why I hadn't brought my horses.
It comes back to duty for me, something that is a strong point in my life, made more evident by Memorial Day and what it means.
When life is defined by duty, it becomes simple and clear, regardless of others' attempts to alter my perception.
Technically true but then someone would have been taking his role and getting the extra pay. To force that on him and the company would've been poor judgement in my opinion.
Now your taking the suggestion to identify the foreman too far to the extreme. Are you suggesting that your situation didn't need an identified leader? You situation is exactly the reason why somone should have been the designated "boss".
I did my duty so I didn't have any reason to appologize. We both knew that he hadn't told me anything about ceilings. I proved that to him with my reasoning about why I hadn't brought my horses
I suppose my lessons learned from How To Win Friends and Influence People kicked in when I suggested the apology. The apology for "misunderstanding the instructions" is offered as a way for the foreman to save face. By offering him this "out", you may have found a way to save your job if that was your goal.
Another lesson from HTWFAIP is that "if you win the argument, you lose". You did in fact win the argument. How did that work out for you financially speaking?
You very well might have decided that you've had enough of working with these characters and I don't blame you. I only offered my opinions as solutions to the situation of working with difficult bosses. We've all had to deal with them in the past and many of us will continue to face these types of situations. Its not fun and some have no choice in the matter. It sounds like you do. I probably would still have tried to negotiate in the manner that I suggested even if I was cutting my ties and hitting the trail.
That foreman obviously has won many verbal battles by changing the topic and muddying up the real "problem". Realistically, you can never win that battle because he will have an endless supply of illogical paths to wander down as he rationalizes away his own lack of management skill. You are far better off parting company and I hope you can financially survive until something better surfaces.
Sure, it would be good to have a substitute foreman for the day but that would require that one of the journeymen on the job make that point to the foreman. The foreman wouldn't support the idea so that, in turn, would mean that all the journeymen on the job must agree and insist, before anything would happen.
The way that small time union-contractor politics work on the job, it's not likely that every journeyman there would have agreed on that issue. That would leave it up to the guy who brought it up to stand alone and insist, making himself the obvious target for the next lay-off.
Heck, the business agent might not have backed him up either, considering that it was only a one day absence. So, in my local union, that sort of issue wouldn't have been brought up.
Now that I think about it, I'm not exactly sure what our work rules said about having a foreman on the job. As I recall, a foreman wasn't required until there were a certain number of carpenters working for a particular contractor. I believe the number was four. Until that number was hired, the job could be run by any company man, either a foreman or a supervisor.
=========================================================
One of the other points I've tried to get across is that there wasn't any "right" answer with this boss/foreman, not when he was in attack mode.
He'd lost production during his day away from the job, due to his own ignorance, lack of planning and poor communication so he needed a scapegoat to save his own paranoid behind.
He tried to corner me and get me to admit that I was at fault, so that he wouldn't have to worry about someone calling his boss after he put the blame on me and laid me off.
There's another, smaller point that I haven't mentioned. It's easier to scapegoat/lay-off the newest hire than it is someone who has been on the job for a longer time.
That's because, to the office supervisor, it makes sense that the newest guy would be the less productive or less reliable, like in the present case where the foreman was absent from the job for a day.
The longer term employees have supposedly proven their worth so, when looking for a scapegoat, the newer guy is the obvious target.
So, being the last hired, when the tirade began that "fateful" morning I had a pretty good idea where the axe would fall. The best I could do was to take a stand and defend my actions with the evidence, using well founded reason and logic to support it.
Edited 5/26/2009 12:04 pm by Hudson Valley Carpenter
An experienced foreman would have had a drywall lift on site for the ceilings, especially with a 3 person crew.BTW Good thread.Chuck S.live, work, build, ...better with wood
An experienced foreman would have had a drywall lift on site for the ceilings, especially with a 3 person crew.<<<<<<<<<<
Best point yet.
"If you have enough energy you can solve a lot of other problems." - Charlie Munger, Berkshire Hathaway.
We have an abundant supply of domestic natural gas. Let's get busy solving problems.
Yes but that assumes that the "foreman" isn't the company pusher man. All too often that is his roles, get it done cheaper, faster and let the chips(and workers) fall where they may.
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
An experienced foreman would have had a drywall lift on site for the ceilings, especially with a 3 person crew.
Not necessarily. A lot of drywall pros don't use those because they slow you down...a lot.
Drywall lifts have been around almost as long as gypsum board itself. I used a modern lift when I was remodeling a bathroom by myself, a couple years ago. It performed fine but it was a PIA to get in place and slow to operate. Working around it with a screw gun was another trial.
There are folding aluminum scaffolds, with steps, which allow a two man team to install a 12' ceiling board in less than five minutes, complete.
I made a pair of horses for that purpose, with steps on each leg. Using two 10' planks, two of us can mount that scaffold, raise the board and support it with our heads while we get a few screws or nails in the perimeter, enough to take the load. Then it's just a matter of how fast the two guys are with their screw guns.
When I was doing apartments every day we could do an entire bedroom, ceilings, walls and closets in just over an hour, two of us. Using a lift would have added about fifteen minutes to that time.
Im not complaining about the Union completely because for years i had the chance to make top dollar. But living in a Rural area what happens is this. A big company wins a bid here, Sends down Super, Foreman, and maybe 2 of there trusted company men Carpenters. They then hire out of the hall. Sometimes they will hire 6 to keep 2. No matter how hard one works its never enough, No matter what goes wrong its Your fault, One NEVER gets to look at any plans or details, Numbers are Mumbled to you and your expected to start laying things out with a few mumbled phrases after they just spent 3 hours staring at the plans, These Company men have no interest in a local shining and taking there job and will sabotage you at every chance. The guys that do best are brown nosers and Rats as they serve the company mens purpose. I know very good carpenters that got fired and incompetent ones that stayed for the whole job. Its more personality sometimes. After all these years the best compliment i have is im one of the hands that could do a job, We all know each other and we All know we had no chance sometimes on the jobs due to this kind of thing. If a Foreman fires a lot of guys its a feather in his hat as hes a Pusher with no skin off his hide in a area he does not live in. So he can build his rep as a hardnose company man on the backs of others!!!.. In all my years i have NEVER had the BA go to bat for me or anyone else. Thats just the way it was for me one has to learn not to take any of it personally or you would go nuts!!!!. Most all bigger jobs were like this and ALL bridge jobs. I was called out for years as a trim carpenter so no one bothered me much as my skills were needed. Not that i was so special but at the end of a job, facing deadlines no body wants to get rid of a carpenter that can trim and risk going through some that can not.
Very similar experiences, your union days and mine.
Sounds like the Canadians actually have ways to handle grievances, according to Dinosaur anyway.
I suspect that they have a better way to qualify guys as journeymen too. Actual tests even. Not just a wink and a big initiation fee.
One could Buy a book but that does not mean your gonna hold a job for very long!!!!
<Not necessarily. A lot of drywall pros don't use those because they slow you down...a lot. Drywall lifts have been around almost as long as gypsum board itself. I used a modern lift when I was remodeling a bathroom by myself, a couple years ago. It performed fine but it was a PIA to get in place and slow to operate. Working around it with a screw gun was another trial.>I agree to a certain extent. On fast track commercial jobs with a team of experienced rockers using Baker scaffolds and rotozips (except for sprinkler drops)is one thing, but a three person crew, especially the foremans crew, I would use a lift. Dosn't slow me down, but I am not production oriented anymore or was ever very fast.Another thing I like about a lift for wood framed ceilings is you can do the layout on the back of the tilted panel, apply adhesive, tilt it back, crank it up and fasten it. No more dripping mastic. Here is a linkhttp://forums.taunton.com/tp-breaktime/messages?msg=79773.182 Your horses sound good.Chuck S.live, work, build, ...better with wood
I have never been a member of any union but my guess is that Husband and Wife teams are rare.I think you did the right thing when asked to help - it's the "give a man a fish vs teach a man to fish" thing. You increased Mr. and Mrs. Marine's skill-set. Good for you.Your downfall was lack of diplomacy. Basically your had a bug up your butt for a) not being kept in the loop, b) being asked to do someone else's work while they watched (since she could not handle your work scope), c) you didn't respect the Marine team, d) if anyone had been given "Forman For A Day" status, it should have been you, e) you did not respect the Forman/ Forman had not earned your respect, f) the Forman had not shown you respect/ you had not earned the Forman's respect, g) Union work assignments/ achievement benchmarks do not foster team efforts and therefore you didn't feel obligated to go that route, f) you were not happy working there so this was a perfect excuse to move-on.Sometimes diplomacy is overrated; sometimes, not. Having said that - this could have been viewed as an opportunity to learn how to deal with difficult people. Maybe it was more fun to be right and irritate a moron by showing them how much of a moron they are. That can be difficult to pass up. BTDT. I have found that actions in one area are often influenced by options available in another.Frankie
Flay your Suffolk bought-this-morning sole with organic hand-cracked pepper and blasted salt.
Thrill each side for four minutes at torchmark haut. Interrogate a lemon.
Embarrass any tough roots from the samphire. Then bamboozle till it's al dente with that certain je ne sais quoi.
Arabella Weir as Minty Marchmont - Posh Nosh
Lets just assume that he didn't have the "bug up a butt" condition for this reply.
This appears to be a normal union style working condition. I never worked that much in commercial union activities (other than residential framing) and now I'm thankful that I haven't. It sounds like a bunch of soap opera coffee klutchers all join/work in the unions shops.
It sounds like a bunch of soap opera coffee klutchers all join/work in the unions shops.
Working union is often like being in a bad soap opera. Many people trying to protect their jobs, some willing to stab others in the back to do it.
Those who work according to a little higher set of principles get the axe first, when a scapegoat is needed, because they refuse to use similar tactics or to accept irrational insults from the pusher/foreman.
But no one joins the union because they want to work under those conditions. The financial rewards are the real draw, and the security that union employment provides for themselves and their families.
I was in and out of the carpenter's union, more out than in, over a period of twenty years. It was seldom pleasant or rewarding work. But it paid the bills and gave me a foundation for other employment opportunities in construction.
When the BS got deep, I spoke up. Sometimes that worked in my favor on the job, sometimes not. But the more important thing was that I kept my beliefs alive. I didn't surrender them to anyone for the sake of a paycheck.
If unions supported their members as they should, none of that BS would have any effect. But that's not the way it goes, mostly because of the political climate toward unions in the U.S.
Edited 5/27/2009 8:43 am by Hudson Valley Carpenter
" some willing to stab others in the back to do it. "
Weasels.
That climate seems more prevalent today than any time I can remember. Over the years and different industries I've walked more than one picket line and you know real quick who has the courage of their convictions. Amazing how fast many can dump their principles.
Scabs & weaklings can't wait to undercut you and are usually the first in line at the trough to take/demand any benefits you've earned/fought for.
I'm not flippin' you off.........just counting cubits
Your story only reinforces my belief that unions are the worst thing to ever happen in the USA
Bing
Your story only reinforces my belief that unions are the worst thing to ever happen in the USA.
This story reinforces my belief that personal liberty is in the hands of the individual. And that tyranny is to be opposed in all it's forms, by the individual on behalf of himself and all humanity.
Edited 5/25/2009 9:06 pm by Hudson Valley Carpenter
Well said.
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
Well said.
Thanks. Memorial Day finds another way to make it's message heard. Glad to be of service in that cause.
I'd say that depends on the union.....I always get a kick out of it when people lump everything into one category. I can tell you this; there are a lot of things that you benefit from in your life that are solely due to the diligence and sacrifice of unions and union members in the past. 5 day work weeks,8 hr work days, paid holidays, time and a half over 40 hours,Health benefits, a million things related to safety and working conditions.Before unions, NONE of these things existed. Management held ALL the cards. "Don't like the scafold you're on, made of 2x4's 6 stories up?" Go the ### home then. bye-bye job. I'm a union firefighter, but I was a non-union carpenter for 19 years before I got on the FD. I have seen both sides. I do not agree with everything the union does, but I know that for my current profession, they are an absolute necessity. SCBA, RIT teams, fire engines, training, health benefits, pensions, if not for the union, do you think the city would willingly pay for ANY of it? I've seen negotiations, and they would say "seeya, there's a guy at unemployment that doesn't care if the truck isn't safe, he doesn't care if he has fresh air to breathe in a fire, he will work for half of what you make, because he needs food money" I don't say that solely for the benefit of the employee either, it affects the taxpayer's safety as well. I will never understand the attitude that people have toward unions in regard to these things. I can't understand why they look at a benefit package of health and dental, and say "they're thieves, why should they get that?" Why not say, "Hey, why don't I have that?" It boils down, sometimes, to jealousy in my eyes. Want what I've got? then go get it.I'm not stopping you; actually I want everyone to have the benny's I've got; find out why you don't have them.I don't mean to sound confrontational about this; I'm not. It is, however something I feel strongly about. As I said before, I'm willing to admit that I don't agree with all they do, but I feel that, in certain circumstances, they are, still, a necessity.Bing (haha)
Well said. Thanks.
I'm not flippin' you off.........just counting cubits
I haven't read through all of the posts, but just let me add a woman's point of view:
I can hang 8ft sheetrock by myself either direction (walls). If she can't do that, as far as I am concerned, she has no place on the jobsite.
That said, we used to have a drywall crew where the guys tacked the rock in, then the gals came in and screwed off. Dang. They were fast! Very nimble fingers.
In your situation, I would have had the Marine help you tack yours in place, and had her screw all of them off, while you guys were doing the ceiling.
I kinda think you wimped out, not being a team player.
I haven't read through all of the posts
I kinda think you wimped out, not being a team player.
Union Carpentry is not a team sport, unless you're working with a partner. Then it's every team/tandem for themselves.
Everyone has their own assignments and is expected to produce specific numbers, daily, particularly on work which can be easily counted, like drywall.
The person or tandem with the lowest production can count on being the first to be laid off, simple as that. No encouragement to speed up. No warning either. Just a check in an envelope at the end of the day.
I suggest that you go back and read the entire thread...if you want to offer opinions which have some relevance.
Go back and read what I posted and respond.
Then, I will respond to yours.
I took quotes from your post and responded to them. It's a long thread. I don't have the time or the inclination to re-post everything that you and others have missed, in order to refute poorly founded opinions.
HVC, I read through all the posts and just wanted to add a few phrases I learned from some of the very talented older journemen i have had the pleasure of working with " I wasn't fired, but i was layed off while they were still hiring" " I worked before i came here and I'll work when I leave here" And my favorite " If you don't think I am going fast enough, call the (explicative)hall and get somebody else! I was also told twice that I would never work for this particular company again, been back 3 times. You did the right thing, and I support you brother. Mike , Carpenters Local 214 Lebanon Pa
Thanks Mike,
Good to hear those old phrases again. We've all had a chuckle or two, repeating them to each other, while mocking the facial expressions and gestures of the foreman.
I only told a couple of my bosses to get my check, if he wasn't happy, over many years. This guy was one of them.
The other time was on a big Simmons form job, a new state prison, when the contractor was way behind schedule and the pushers were yelling, all over the big site.
Our foreman was sneaking around, trying to catch guys standing still so he could ream them a new one. I was standing on a plank with a rope in my hand that was tied to a bucket on the ground, waiting for a laborer to pour some pins in it. The job was short of everything, pins in particular.
The foreman climbed up the other side of the form, looking for someone to pounce on and saw me, hands on my knees, looking down and doing nothing. His yell startled me, coming from so close by.
I turned and yelled back, "Are you f-ing crazy, yelling in my ear like that?!"
"Why aren't you working?", just as loud.
"If you weren't sneaking around like a f-ing rat, you'd be able to see that I'm waiting for some pins."
"I've had my eye on you. You're never working as hard as you should."
So I told him that if it would make him feel better, he could go to the office and get my check.
He thought he'd make an example out of me so he laid me off that afternoon. I was gone a half hour early that day, happy as a clam. I called the hall as soon as I left the job and got sent to West Point, starting the next morning.
At noon the next day, eating lunch in a shady cool spot overlooking the Hudson, the shop steward comes over and tells us that the prison job had been locked down early that morning by the state government. The contractor's performance bond had been claimed, because they were so far behind.
It was several weeks before a new G.C. started that prison job up again. Some of the carpenters who'd been there came to our job but most of them were out of work until the prison job got going. Their tools were locked up on that job too, for about a week, until the authorities allowed the union members to come in and claim their personal tools.
So, honesty is a good policy. I still get a big smile out of that turn of events, particularly knowing that our foreman got laid off, only a few hours after he did it to me. And that I was back to work without missing a beat.
Edited 5/26/2009 11:48 pm by Hudson Valley Carpenter
Mike,Lebanon ? Great - I lived in Lebanon 1966 to 1970 and loved it there. My Pop worked for ALCOA. I heard the plant closed, then burned. Good memories of growing up there.Greg - living in South Georgia now.
Greg, I live in Pottsville, our Union Hall and training center is located in Lebanon, actually outside of Lebanon towards Annville. I have worked at the V.A. in lebanon and at a Highrise in town there. I don't know about Alcoa there but there was one located in Cressona, about 5 mile south of Pottsville. Unfortunately I have heard there are some very bad parts of Lebanon now.Glad to hear from you.
Yeah, Camp Bashore and Ft. Indiantown Gap aren't far from you, right ? Love that part of the country - good friend of mine was from Tamaqua.
Thanks !
Greg
Seems like they lost a good man when they let you go.
Ive been through this type of thing before when I felt I was a better worker with more to offer the company, but yet I had the a hole supervisor breathing down my neck (while the other deadbeats I worked with were getting special treatment and everything was wonderful for them)
You know what I"m talking about?
You know what I"m talking about?
Of course. But I doubt that those who get special treatment really benefit from it, in the long run.
Nepotism and other types of favoritism create barriers to real human growth by removing the subject from the most favorable environment for it, the place where the elements required are found in abundance.
Some of the saddest, emptiest people I've met are those who were raised to believe that they were above others. Even when among their peer group, they're not really happy because the bond which they share is easily broken, due to it's illusionary nature.
I'm thinking you got fired because you're not a team player and although you might be right technically you PO'ed the foreman.
around here the foreman would also be a union member and he could be brought up on charges for insisting you use non-osha approved scaffolding
you might want to look into it
I'm thinking you got fired because you're not a team player and although you might be right technically you PO'ed the foreman.
I got laid-off because the foreman needed a scapegoat. He hadn't planned well and it came back to bite him. And it had cost him production that he needed to keep his boss in the office happy.
It was unfortunte for me that this happened on a day when he wasn't on site or available on the phone. It was also unfortunate that the Marine made me out to be the villain, when I'd done what I could to help he and his partner/wife to do their assignment.
FWIW, I called the Marine at home the evening after I got laid-off and told that I wasn't real happy with his attitude and his tactics. He said that he'd do better at being prepared to handle jobs like that with his wife in the future.
this may have already been discussed
There are different business management "models"
Different managers handle things differently
I took a class and part of it talked about management
I don't remember anything in particular except that several years later I read about business management styles that wrecked businesses
In the "old school" a business would hire an employee
In reality they went to great lengths (and expense) to interview an employee, check their references, etc.
Everything was fine and the employee started work and the "new employee" had become a member of the team or a member of "the family"
Shortly thereafter things would go south.
AFTER THE FIRST FEW DAYS OF HONEYMOON PERIOD EMPLOYERS WOULD THEN COME DOWN ON THE EMPLOYEE WITH A HAMMER AND IN NO UNCERTAIN TERMS LET THE EMPLOYEE KNOW WHO WAS BOSS AND IF THEY CROSSED THE LINE OR MADE A MISTAKE IN ANY WAY SHAPE OR FORM THEY WERE HISTORY
Many many employees would get fired. Even over trivial things such as honest mistakes.
BUT MANAGEMENT SAW EACH FIRING AS SOME KIND OF VICTORY.
They would slap each other on the back and feel good they got rid of another bad seed.
In reality they were losing good people
This cost a lot of money.
Rehiring, retraining, loss of morale etc
Finally someone looked at this model and said "this has to change"
Some companies did change but most probably have not.
The old school management style is alive and well and I see people suffering and hating their jobs.
Just an observation
Sure, and when you couple that management style with an on-site supervisor who occasionally needs a scapegoat to lay the blame on for his own poor planning, communications or other types of errors, you've created a work environment in which morale and production are both less than optimum.
Thanks for adding your formal knowledge on the subject.
Just curious, why was the foreman out for the day? Could he have been taking his wife to chemo? Going to the dentist? Appearing in court in a custody battle?
Something for the company which required travel. As mentioned, we were a crew of only three and he wasn't working with his tools so his presence on the site wasn't very important, except when he didn't plan ahead very well of course.
It's not as if we all haven't done the same, assumed that things would go smoothly when it would be better to close all the loop holes. It's about taking responsibility for not having done so, afterwards.
HVC
Is the production on commercial jobs that tightly measured that anyone would tell or give a cr*p. I know on residential super might notice but wouldn't say anything about a bit less production than normal.
Seems like that amount could be made up pretty quickly. Over a weeks time. Is the super graded by the bosses daily? Or was there someone coming behind right away?
Is the production on commercial jobs that tightly measured that anyone would tell or give a cr*p.
On union jobs, it usually is, some more tightly than others. Drywall is so easy to bid accurately that every drywall contractor is working within a very narrow profit margin.
The same is true for bricklayers, suspended ceilings, linoleum floors and other trades where square foot production can be estimated within a given tolerance.
This particularly true during slow economic periods. Lots of bidders and lower profits.
Doesn't sound like you were a crew of three, sounds like you were two crews, one with two people and one working alone.
In answer to your original question, I would have said to the man and his wife: "I'm really sorry, I can't help you using this scaffolding because of a shoulder injury. Let me rig you a deadman to help you today, and tomorrow I'll bring my personal scaffold so we can finish this off." The next day when the super came in all three of us would have been in the big room finishing off the ceiling and I think the conversation would have gone differently.
Your generalization about Marines makes me wonder about you. I've known Marines that were quiet, gentle and confident. They didn't have anything to prove because they already proved it. But they also don't advertise what they were, they live in the present, so you may know former Marines like that without knowing it.
Doesn't sound like you were a crew of three, sounds like you were two crews, one with two people and one working alone.
I used the total number of tradespeople in that post, in order to describe the foreman's area of responsibility. We were two units, all of which made up one crew.
In answer to your original question, I would have said to the man and his wife: "I'm really sorry, I can't help you using this scaffolding because of a shoulder injury. Let me rig you a deadman to help you today, and tomorrow I'll bring my personal scaffold so we can finish this off." The next day when the super came in all three of us would have been in the big room finishing off the ceiling and I think the conversation would have gone differently.
That's close to what I said but the room wasn't so big that they couldn't finish it themselves, that day, which they did. It just slowed them down to a degree that they only produced about one half to two thirds of what had been expected of them.
My first suggestion was that they move to another room, one which didn't get a drywall ceiling and let the ceiling go until I could bring my horses. But the husband said that they were going to do what they'd been assigned, not something that hadn't yet been given to them.
Your generalization about Marines makes me wonder about you.
You must have missed my qualifier. I wrote specifically about the Marines I've known, from my generation, the early-mid 60's.
I've known Marines that were quiet, gentle and confident. They didn't have anything to prove because they already proved it. But they also don't advertise what they were, they live in the present, so you may know former Marines like that without knowing it.
Marine Corps indoctrination and training have changed over the years, been modified considerably as more has been learned about brain washing and stress. It was probably at it's most mind numbing and brutal during the time specified.
All of the Marines I've known from that period, whether they saw combat or not, were seriously affected, mentally and emotionally, by that endoctrination. Many of them are either on prescribed medication for stress or they self-medicate with alcohol and/or other "recreational" drugs, daily.
IMO, to this day the U.S. military still doesn't make enough effort to de-program and re-sensitize those who are leaving the service and returning to civilian life. The high rate of suicide among veterans of the war in Iraq bears witness to that opinion.
Edited 6/2/2009 1:29 pm by Hudson Valley Carpenter
"All of the Marines I've known from that period, whether they saw combat or not, were seriously affected, mentally and emotionally, by that endoctrination. Many of them are either on prescribed medication for stress or they self-medicate with alcohol and/or other "recreational" drugs, daily."What a load of cr@p.John Svenson, builder, remodeler, NE Ohio
You got fired (laid off as union calls it) because you challenged the boss to a peeing match, plain and simple.
You got fired (laid off as union calls it) because you challenged the boss to a peeing match, plain and simple.
HA! It was his little soap opera, one that I didn't want any part of, so I challenged him, that's true. But I challenged him with sound reasoning and logic, refusing to accept the blame for his errors. He made his decision, one that he knew would cover his tracks.
What a load of cr@p.
What do you know about the Marines I've worked with and been friends with, over the last forty-some years?
"It's been my experience with every guy I've known who joined the Marines and went through boot camp in the sixties, that they became heavy handed and domineering, in reaction to any kind of opposition. This as a result of the indoctrination they went through.
It's been a matter of some concern to me for most of my adult life, that these great guys were turned into a brotherhood of dedicated warriors by our military leaders, then left to fend for themselves in our world, without de-programming or organized support, after their time in service was over"
"All of the Marines I've known from that period, whether they saw combat or not, were seriously affected, mentally and emotionally, by that endoctrination. Many of them are either on prescribed medication for stress or they self-medicate with alcohol and/or other "recreational" drugs, daily. "
Despite your qualifier, you are making a broad generalization based on what....
Your experience with less than .01% of Marines in that era?
Your bias comes through loud and clear, your qualifier is merely lip service.John Svenson, builder, remodeler, NE Ohio
Apparently you're projecting someone else's arrogance onto my observations, while missing the emotional content.
The emotion is compassion and it existed between former Marines long before I first encountered any of them and felt it myself. It has also been felt by others close to them, members of their families and life time friends.
Those who don't know Marines who went through boot in the 60's shouldn't assume that they have a grip on the entire subject of USMC endoctrination.
I have yet to know any of them from that time as friends, who haven't agreed that it had affected them in the ways I've described. The same is true for their other friends who knew them before and after their time in service.
To be sure, the friendships and working relationships I've had with those guys has been a microcosm of a much larger group but each one of them has occured at different times and under different circumstances, with the outcomes being very similar.
So I stand by the carefully qualified generalizations I've made as accurate, not skewed or exaggerated.
Generalizations serve a purpose when used to point out a common problem that the person speaking or writing believes needs attention from a larger group of people.
The problem I've been noticing and feeling compassion for, throughout my adult life, is one I've addressed in this thread; our military's lack of substantive compassion and preparedness to help their service personnel to return to civilian life successfully.
With the rate of suicides among returning vets of the Iraq war being as high as it is, you'd think that the military wouldn't need any reminders from it's citizens.
Apparently you are "projecting" your limited exposure on to the hundreds of thousands of Marines who served during the Viet Nam era.So, according to you I'm "projecting some other person's arrogance" on to you.Yet you are projecting what...a dozen? Maybe two dozen?....individual Marines on to hundreds of thousands of Marines.I would definitely call that skewed and exaggerated.I never questioned your observations, I've seen some of that myself, and certainly not limited to Marines. I question your extrapolation to include all Marines of the era as "heavy handed and domineering". I know that's not true.John Svenson, builder, remodeler, NE Ohio
I question your extrapolation to include all Marines of the era as "heavy handed and domineering".
HVC: (from post 66 in this thread) "It's been my experience with every guy I've known who joined the Marines and went through boot camp in the sixties, that they became heavy handed and domineering, in reaction to any kind of opposition. This as a result of the indoctrination they went through."
Note that I've been specific all along, referring to only those Marines I've known. I stand by what I've said.
"I stand by what I've said."Obviously.John Svenson, builder, remodeler, NE Ohio