I am considering switching my crew over to a union shop. I am curious as to good or bad experiences any of you have had.
Main reasons for considering:
1) better rates on health insurance for employees.
2) can get extra help as needed without being “married” to employee.
3) having a lot of difficulty finding qualified help.
a little backround.
I have 2 seperate crews, steady 6 employees. 3 skilled 2 grunts, and me. 2 houses going up at all times. Framing only. We specialize in building the unusual. (turrets, french rolled rafters, barrel vaults, spiral stairs, etc. Not many guys in my area are interested in anything custom so we keep very busy. I have been turning away more work than I do.
Pay the ridiculous 15.2% work comp up to10′ then close to 30% higher than than.
have 2 million in general liability,
I supply everything except basic hand tools.
hourly wage paid between $9.50 and $ 19.00.
A few pros, and cons would be helpful. Taking time with this decision.
Replies
so if you go union you will be paying your help $32 a hour and they still take home $9. so what the point.
not sure what scale per skill level is.
Just curious,
where are you located?
-srj
my guys love being union and so do I. No complaints about money from the guys, and bennies are great too.An inch to short. That's the story of my life !
bstcrpntr --- I hope to grow into this name.
I know of an electrical contractor here that has a union shop. The guys get paid a living pay. This carrot attracts good people. It appears they are getting about $9.00 in total compensation more than non union. He offers reasonable pricing, great service knowledgeable trained technicians, and his guys seam upbeat an happy with there employment position.
Surprisingly while the cost on paper for labor is more, he is still competitive. The skills and knowledge they bring to the project offer good value in today’s market place.
I am of the opinion that the union labor force offers a win. win environment to all principals involved in the construction project.
Master Electricians receive about $27.00 an hour with Fringes of $13.00 (+ -) this would seem to be a decent living package for most parts of this country.
Probably the biggest con is for employers who absolutely detest the fact that their production staff may actually be making a living wage.
Working for nothing is not getting any cheaper.
Edited 8/10/2005 11:28 pm ET by TomMaynard
yeah, and it'll be great. we'll all come in hung over, but you can't fire us. better still, spend even more money on our wages and alcohol counselling courses. but you can't fire us.
and when we're late, or catching a nap in the truck -- so what's the problem? take it up with my steward. Or worst case scenario, give me the first of fourteen written warnings.
go ahead, join a union and allow your men to become the laziest, least inspired, unmotivated greedy sons of bitches that will contribute even more to the downfall of this great country.
I take you don't like unions? LOL
And the alternative is what?
<!----><!----> <!---->
The union crew I mentioned in my previous post is anything but lazy.
Quite the opposite: Highly skilled, Company & task oriented, Goal minded, Assertive & Motivated, the model’s of efficiency.
<!----> <!---->Can I ask? What are you referring to when you speak of greed?Working for nothing is not getting any cheaper.
I guess thats always been a touchy spot for me (unions) -- but, seeing as I was half in the bag last night when I wrote that I was entertained to read it myself this morning -- but the experience I have with unions remains unchanged.
In all fairness, though, my experience is with automotive unions -- I was in a mfg town and all the guys would brag about how little sleep they got on the job the night before and how they couldn't get fired. -- I've always been self employed and still can't fathom how a business can compete on a level field with that kind of ineffective overhead.
glad to hear your experience is better. I'll be less judgmental re this issue.
Big difference with the automotive unions, Pete. With the construction unions, if a guy shows up half-bagged, you send him home, call the hall, and get a replacement. If you want to "fire" him, you give him a lay-off check paying him current, and send him packin'.
Working for a commercial GC that uses 100% union labor, I can tell you that the majority of the guys work hard, and are knowledgable in their trade. Usually, the BA's won't send you too many reject bench-warmers, because it only makes the BA look bad when the guys can't perform. If you do catch a bad one, you send him back, get a replacement, and bitch at the BA for sending him in the first place.
The best thing about the unions is the ability to ramo your workforce up or down pretty much immediately. When was the last time you could have 25 masons, carpenters, electricians, or whatever on the job the next morning, with tools, and able to do what you asked of them with just a phone call?
The non-union guys are stuck with using newspaper ads, and culling through 50 rejects who think theyre carpenters because the once built a doghouse, and think they're worth $40/hour. If you're lucky, you might find one that can actually perform.
Bob
I have worked (management) in both union and non union operations. I don't care for unions in general.
But construction unions are a good thing based on the type of business you do. I have a friend that does machinery moving, millrite work etc. and I told him he should be a union shop because it will allow him the freedom he needs to man up or man down as needed. And in our area the best steelworkers are trained by you or the union guys.
In the residential arena I doubt in my area if there are 3 union carpenters that have worked with wood left. They all work commercial stuff, steel studs and the like. And it would be tough to be competative in a small area with that much overhead. Just my thoughts. DanT
They all work commercial stuff, steel studs and the like.
Same thing around here. When I joined the apprentice program in 1995 the training concentrated on steel studs, hanging drywall, and building forms. Needless to say, I quit.
Unionized residential companies are non-existent around here.
I know a few union carpenters, and they all build forms for large commercial companies that build bridges, and overpasses($$$$$$$). Lot's of over time and shift differential, then they get laid-off all winter, and work under the table. Just adding to the problem.
the new stuff at Nevillewood is Residential Union.
learned that putting in a kitchen there. Talked to the guys doing the carpentry ...
both been in the Union 10-15 yrs ... think one said he was getting $16.25/hr.
not alot of money if ya ask me. I was making $18 minus bennies at my last "real" job. I'd not wanna make $16.25 then pay dues and everything else ....
commercial guys get somewhere right around $30 with the same experience.
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
thanks for the insight. I stand corrected and humbled.
go ahead, join a union and allow your men to become the laziest, least inspired, unmotivated greedy sons of bitches that will contribute even more to the downfall of this great country.
You mean they will become.....
...
CONTRACTORS!!!
That is scary!!"I think natural selection must have greatly rewarded the ability to reassure oneself in a crisis with complete bull$hit."
I'm Swiss!
Seriously, I've only seen that out of non union guys. Most of them hide behind a relative who's higher up in the company and protects them.
Holy crap.............It's almost time!
100% depends on your individual situation... where you are... what the strength of the union in your area is... what the competition is... etc. Also depends on the availability of alternatives.
My first suggestion (before suggesting unionization) would be to offer union-competitive wages and hook up with a GOOD employee leasing company (also known as "professional Employer Organization") for competitive benefits and human resource assistance. But again... this option is wholly dependent on availability of a good employee leasing outfit in your area.
IF you decide to investigate this route... you may want to express such and I can give you a LOT of advice/opinions on the subject. If not... that's cool and I won't bore the forum with the excruciating details and nuances.
There are other options... but this would be my first suggestion, not knowing any more than I do.
Edited 8/10/2005 11:54 pm ET by RichColumbus
Just my 2cents but I would look into some of RichColumbus's ideas before changing over to a union shop. My own experience was mostly negative but the local I was in was really screwed up. I can comment on the three points you listed for considering the union.
1 "better health insurance" we had a multi-tier system commercial fitters had the A plan, residential fitters had the D plan, being on the D plan meant you needed to be almost dead before you got any help.
2."etra help" When I called and got some-one off the bench it didn't take long to figure out thats exactly where they belonged, if constuction in your area is booming and people are sitting on the bench then you probably don't want them on your job.
3. I found that it was easier to either head-hunt other companies for good help rather than hire some of the apprentices that were sent out to me.
Curious, didn't the companies you worked for<through your local, have any choice in who they got on a job?
I am a IBEW member, but not in the construction side of the union. We use IBEW union contractors for many of our larger jobs. Those contractors can choose their employees from those on the book, when they need additional help. whether apprentice or journeyman, they have the right to send them back to the hall if they don't produce, have the right skill level, poor work ethic, or any number of other reason.
The apprenticeship program here has a long waiting list of young people wanting to get in. For those that truly want to learn the electrical trade the program is top notch. If this area had enough work to keep the halls empty, we would be turning out top drawer journeymen that most non-unions electrical contractors couldn't approach in skill and trade knowledge.
Competition for those entry level positions is fierce. Slackers, and dead wood is culled early. There are many more in line waiting to take their jobs. so no time is wasted on those looking for a free ride.
The local here works hand in hand with the contractor in what is known as a mutual gains atmosphere. Wasting time trying to protect bad employees is not mutually beneficial to either side of the table.
Dave
We had to take any one the business agent sent over. The bussiness agent had been in that position for 17 years, ran his kingdom as he saw fit. I was forced to let 2 new hires go because I wouldn't allow the drunk off the bench remain on the job{found the guy passed out in his car the first day he hit the site}. This business agent finally took his two pensions and retired, his replacement was just as bad.
It's all very subjective to your area and the strength of that union. It can be a very good experience, and if the numbers add up, then why not? There's good and bad even in the best of unions. I used to run some bigger union jobs and found that it really came down to dealing with personalities. I eventually ended up going back out on my own as I was able to make more $$, but a union job when run by a good leader is definately a win win situation.
I have been a member of 5 different unions so far in my life, only one of them a construction trade. Two of the unions weren't worth the powder to blow them to hell with , while two of the others were ok, and one (Waiters Local 6 NYC) was great. They really took good care of you.
You should also checkout the work rules before doing so.
As a framer you might not have a problem.
But a friend of mine that does comercial "finish" work as tempted to go union.
But he does DW, he does metal studs, he installs some doors and trim, and he does EIFS work and a few other types of work.
Anyway he found out that those where several different unions and that would screw up his business.
Just came in the door and was surprised at how many of you offered your insight.
The area I work in is about 50 miles from the nearest hall. Needless to say they have no foothold in my area. I made the call to the B.A. and initiated the talks. They are extemely interested in having me switch over. lol, my interests I'm certain are topping thier priority list. I'm no different than any other assbusting self employed contractors whom I share this forum with. We all have busy times of the year. Lucky for me this boom in business has me locked up with work 4 months at minimum. I have turned down more work in the last 6 months than I have done. I am just trying to find a way to make my company more appealing to skilled crafts.
I have learned the hard way to have every employee sign into a no compete clause. It seemed like I went through several nut cutting bastards before I found that holy grail. I would hire guys in the fall when things usually slow down for everyone else. I would bring these guys in and they would be trying to kiss the generals a$$ and cut me out. The nerve of some guys. Luckily the generals and I had worked together for a long time and they brought it to my attention. I'm sure that doesn't sound familiar to anybody else here.
Back to the point, I have 5 guys I can trust my best interests to. I have been running them hard and I am worried that I will burn them out. Everyother week I send the to a concert, a ball game, or take them out and buy them $100 worth of new tools to show them my appreciation. Without good, happy, go to guys I'm out of business. I am in desperate need of help and cannot find anybody worth a #### without stealing them from another crew.
Any ideas about finding good employess would be greatly appreciated. Any ideas at all. Thanks.
>>I have learned the hard way to have every employee sign into a no compete clause.
I know a few others that have learned the hard way that no compete clauses dont hold up in court. All they do is keep an idiot (who doesnt know any better) an idiot.
Its like a sign in a parking garage that says "not responsible for this and that". the truth is they are responsible but theres no law against posting that sign.
actually, my attorney prepared the documentation. Have succesfully enforced once so far. Other 2 times proper service with documentation was enough. My intention is not to punish guys for not working out, but only to ensure that they do not attempt to steal my dinner. Thanks for the input though. Would highly recommend consulting with an attorney in your state because laws vary so much.
I think the only time you can enforce a non compete clause is in a situation of industrial espionage. That would be ripping off a technology.
To ask a court to stop a person from doing what he was trained to do is not going to happen. You cannot stop a person from pursuing his livelyhood.
My brother was sued by a former employer after he had signed a non-compete. The judge laughed and threw it out
Maverick - Don't know where your BIL was, but in NY, they are enforced regularly - provided they are not overbroad. You can't stop them from working nearby forever, IIRC, the rule is 3 years within 100 mile radius. Don
Thanks Don. Some areas are easier than others to enforce. I don't look at it as keeping someone from working as much as protecting myself, and my crew from predatory business practices. I work hard to develop good business relationships with the GCs, and HOs. Last thing I need is Billy Joe Pickup saying "hey, I can do the same thing for you for $XXX cheaper. After all, I'm doing the work anyhow.
Yes, the can do it cheaper. They lack the proper tooling, years of experience to fight through any problem, Liability ins, work comp, state license, etc. etc. But most important of all they lack honesty. After all, they are stealing from me and deceiving you to get your business. Is that a person you would trust?
Carl - You won't win every battle. Some of them are going to take work away at some point, and you may not even know about it. As long as your bills are paid, and you're happy, that's what counts. In the long run, you will be known as the person that you are, and they will too. Good luck. Don
non-compete is very difficult to enforce in a right to work state. On the other hand it can be enforced if you can prove a few critical points. 1. this person is able bodied, 2. could find alternate employment elsewhere is his craft, 3. this person had the intent to interfere with your business dealings, 4. would not be dealing with contractor/homeowner in question had it not been for your introduction into this working environment. 5. was an employee/sub that contractually agreed not to interfere in your business dealings.
when you file suit to enforce the contractual agreement it is like any other agreement. make certain that you have an attorney draft it for you, have it signed and notarized.
I am not a legal expert, just paid the premium to make my attorney an expert at this. research is expensive. I don't know of any other trade where you pay someone to learn how to do their job before any work is done.
I personally would never intentionally try to kick someones agreement. I bid against others all the time. I'm not the cheapest by any means. Most of the people don't mind paying a little extra if they feel they are getting value for their dollar. Ultimately it comes down to you and I not even wanting to have a business relationship with someone who is only concerned with getting the cheapest. Or as far as that goes, someone who would knowingly allow a former employee to cut you out is not a person I want to deal with.
If we sacrifice our morales, ethics, and workmanship for a buck what else do we have left to sell?
what you're doing with your employees sure sounds right. I did the same thing -- treated them like gold. my main man ended up stealing from me. just remember, the more you give them, the more they think they're worth. where do you draw the line?
I just hired my first full-time employee. I'm paying him 40% of what I make after overhead. So the more productive we are the more we both make. I think it will work. I will up his percentage with each year of experience.
Where I live all of those tasks are done by the carpenters union, with the exception of drywall taping (painters union but still typically done by same company).
By the way thanks for the help with my computer, I switched browsers. Mike
Trust in God, but row away from the rocks.
I converted to a union shop to do several retail stores at a major mall. What a mistake, this was during the boom years, our union didn't have enough guys, you couldn't hire non-union help, it seemed like all the union wanted to do was stretch the work out as long as it possibly could while late penalties loomed. The other bone was the ratio of journeymen to apprentices was ridiculous, ... My advice, get the union bylaws and read them cover to cover ... know what your getting into .. oh ya, and the other one, if a guy came in an hour late and wanted to work an extra hour at the end of the day, that was an hour of OT!! .. ridiculous!
If I'm an hour late, I offer to leave an hour early to make up for it <G>.
I was a union carpy for a few years and I will tell you its a good idea theoretically. The problems come from "the old boys club". Guys who vote election after election for the same union officer because doing so gaurantees they will be sent out on jobs and the B.A. will defend their work ethic to the end.
I found that a contractor would assemble a list of the better carpenters and give them a phone call to try to fill their roster before they would call the hall and beg for some real experience. Then the hall would send at least one dog with every capable guy then add an apprentice for every two journeymen.
So thats not so bad. The dog unloads the trucks, the apprentice plays go-fer and the talent gets busy. You get the good guys phone number and maybe on the next job you wont need to call the hall.
I've known guys who worked for the same contractor for all of their career. Even if there was no work the contractor would keep them busy doing something. That way when things started moving again they would'nt call the hall and find out some other outfit scoffed up their guy
sounds like I better take a little more time with this one. good thoughts and ideas all around.
I can only give you my observations as a union-represented telco emplyee. Unions in theory are a nice thing, but in reality they can be a very bad thing for both sides. For example, unions can be a good thing for a represented employee as your wages can be prottected and negotiated for you. Unfortunately, most union organizations are all about the memberships they get from their members and will protect those numbers regardless is the represented employee deserves to keep their job or not.
There will always be good employees and bad employees, union shop or not. But, a union-protected (represented) bad employee is very difficult to get rid of and acts like a cancer to the rest of the shop. For instance, I've seen those kinds of bad represented employees not do their job, do their job poorly, etc. which winds up being an additional work load on others in the same shop. In constrast, its easy as pie to get rid of a bad employee that isn't represented--you simply fire them.
Of course, the paranoia and fear is that a shop with no representation is open to corporate abuse (unfair termination, no wage/salary/benefit negotiations, etc.). I agree to a certain degree. In this day and age there isn't any evidence of job security. I have seen enough surplus events happen to both union represented employees and management alike.
Personally, I would investigate where you are seeing weaknesses in your current unrepresented shop (I haven't read the thread, just the opening post) and ask for advice, which I am sure many have already given you. Now, would I have gotten my job had it been an unrepresented environment? I do not know. Would I have been paid as much? No, but I do get paid very well for what I do. Do I think the union hurts my employer? Dear god, yes. My employer could probably fire 1/2 the represented employees (and some of the management, too) and get the same amount of work done.