Replies

1. 
   Dan_Dear | May 21, 2000 05:59am | #1

   *
   Something is wrong here. Am I to understand that:

   1. You submitted a written Proposal for "X" work and for a specified amount of money?

   2. The potential "client" revised their copy of the Proposal and returned it to you unsigned?

   3. Told you either verbally or written, that you had better except their revised "terms" and project scope, or they would contact the IRS and Attorney General?

   4. You have not yet started any work?

   If the above is true, this is incredulous. At 58 I've met my share of people with big cajoles, but they take the cake. It's called black mail, but with nothing to black mail you with. They are trying to scare/trick/intimidate you into committing business suicide.

   I hope you saved those "messages". If so, I would notify them my registered letter that in fact, you are taking them (the messages) and a copy of the "Proposal" returned to you, to the Attorney General's Office for them to proceed with any legal action they wish to initiate for this attempt at "fraud" by attempting to enforce a contract that they validated by tampering with it. Furthermore, you intend to cooperate with the AGO in every way possible. Then, I would do just that. It is obvious that these people have done this before, possibly successfully. It's time to cut their legs off legally.

   Even if you had signed the Proposal that you sent to them, by noting changes to their only copy, they have legally negated the entire contract. It is only legal if you at the very least initialed and dated each specific change on their copy.

   There is no legal contract in effect.

1. 
   LRZ_ | May 21, 2000 06:17am | #2

   *SONNY: Yes, something is wrong here and, yes- all that I stated is true.This was a proposal for work to be performed on a first come first served basis given 5/1/00 and returned to me 5/19/00, no money changed hands and no work was performed-frankly,I'm overbooked! I do believe these folks have acted similarly in the past as they were to supply coating materials that they received as a warranty. My question here really is: what can the AGO do a)for and b)to me? I have never actually met these folks, nor have I ever worked for them,but do feel a scam scenario.

1. 
   Dan_Dear | May 21, 2000 03:36pm | #3

   *The AGO can't and wouldn't do anything to you. You haven't done anything. However, what these people have attempted to do is called "racketeering." I would not hesitate to go straight to the AGO.I'd also contact the IRS and notify them of their attempt at getting you to accept "cash" as payment for the "arangement" they are trying to perpetrate. I'll bet a $10 bill to your $1 bill that they have a lot of cash- as in income - that has not, and is not, being reported to the IRS.I'd turn the tables on these sleaze balls by doing the above - quickly.

1. 
   Rick_R. | May 21, 2000 04:15pm | #4

   *Ah yes another "Bottom Feeder" has raised it's head. In 19 years I've done a considerable amount of work on a hand shake and have not had a problem. But its for these occasional leeches that we have contract fine print to protect us and company policies based on bad experiences with consumers to prevent re-occurences.You need to consult an attorney before you respond at all. Your response may imply an arrangement to perform work even though the contract is unsigned.If anyone is leaving or sending proposals you should always put a response time limit of 7(not 30) days or the proposal is voidable. On the surface, it would appear you have everything in your favor.You may want to have an attorney send a letter to end any possible contract. If the attorney is decent the letter only takes a 1/2 hour of his/her time and should only cost a $100.00 or less.If you deal with enough people you will run into one of these gonifs. Good luck.

1. 
   Bob_Walker | May 21, 2000 06:54pm | #5

   *LRZ,I think Andrew has it right over on the main board, your "proposal" could be considered an "offer," for a contract to be formed they would have to "accept" the "offer" as written. Once they changed it, their response became a counter-offer, and no contract would be formed until you indicated your acceptance of the counter-offer. This is not only first year law school stuff, but comes up in the first 2 weeks of the Contracts course, and is pretty basic stuff.A possible wrinkle, though, could arise, from "consumer protection" laws in your state (although its hard to image even the most fanatical consumer protection law mucking about with this basic anglo-american concept)I also agree with Andrew that it'd be best to avoid hardball unless forced into it. Old proverb say "avoid urination contest with skunk." Save any (further) messages received -if on an answering machine, save the tapes and document when the calls came in, if not on the tape - if on a digital answering machine, try to make a audio copy with a tape recorder or transcribe the messages.I'd say your best off avoiding even talking to them. Consider consulting an attorney re (i) writing a _brief_ letter on your behalf to them formally recinding the proposal and denying any formation of a contract. If they call you, simply tell them to call your attorney, and instruct the attorney that if s/he receives a call from them s/he is to only repeat the substance of the letter with express consent from you.I doubt that you'll ever here from the AG's office or other areas of officialdom. The AGs' offices generally only investigate alleged frauds, their alleged "breach of contract" doen't do it.Bob

2. 
   Ryan_C | May 21, 2000 11:44pm | #6

   *I had a client refuse to pay me, make a false laundry list of complaints about my work, and when I implied that I may have to take them to court, they filed a complait with my AGO. I got an official letter and an order to respond. I wrote a letter, explained how these theives had taken advantage of me, sent copies of evey piece of paper I've ever owned and nothing ever happened. They'll have to investigate, they'll always try to side with the consumer, but your case is rediculous, no way you can loose. And, what do they think the IRS is gonna do to you. Does the IRS care about construction contract enforcement? Idiots!!!

3. 
   LRZ_ | May 23, 2000 01:02am | #7

   *UMMM... Doesn't a contract require signatures of involved parties(buyer/seller, homeowner/contractor) to be binding?

4. 
   James_DuHamel | May 23, 2000 04:14pm | #8

   *I see a pattern here that could create a lot of hassles for people. I avoid all the mess by clarifying the WORDING of what I am offering.I see some of you use different terms for basically the same thing. PROPOSAL, ESTIMATE, BID, SCA, etc...These varying words can carry varying meanings. I personally use the term "BID" becasue it is an offer on MY part, not the client's. I am offering to do the specified job, with specified materials, at the specified price. If the client agrees, I write up a Contract, and get signatures. Without a contract, I am not obligated to any client. If all you gave the potential client is a "bid", or "estimate", then I personally would write a very nice, very professional letter to them telling them that you appreciate them letting you "bid" on their project, and that you are sorry that they did not find the "bid" acceptable. Use courteous words, and a pleasant sounding tone in the letter, and basically just tell them that you are not doing the job because they did not find the specifications acceptable, as presented. Avoid litigation unless you absolutely have to.Just my opinion...James DuHamel

5. 
   Bob_Walker | May 23, 2000 09:52pm | #9

   *LRZ,"Doesn't a contract require signatures of involved parties?"Nope (actually, sometimes.) There can be oral contracts. By law (commonly know as the Statute of Frauds) only certain contracts had to be in writing e.g., real estate. (The Statute of Frauds dates to 1626 in English law.)Every State in the US has its own Statute of Frauds, and other laws (e.g., "consumer protection" laws often add other items requiring a written contract.)That's not to say that you're better off with an oral contract as opposed to a written one where oral K's will be enforced. A well written contract avoids problems by anticipating what kind of problems may arise and deciding (before the fact) how such problems will be resolved. (That's why contracts tend to get complex: they play lots of "what if" scenarios.)A good contract also gets the parties on the same page about what's going to happen (and not happen) as part of the deal.Bob

6. 
   andrew_d | May 24, 2000 07:48am | #10

   *Note that in many states it is illegal to record someone without their consent (or a court order). Consider Linda Tripp (briefly).... Such recordings are inadmissable in court.Just dotting the i's.... :)I dunno, first two weeks of contracts I think we were still worrying who got to keep the fox after a foxhunt.

7. 
   Rick_Ritivoy | May 24, 2000 12:23pm | #11

   *Bob mentioned something that we constantly insist on in my own company, writing down what was discussed but not included! Most contracts I've seen leave too much to interpretation or implied intent. These type items are subject to implied meanings. When a contractor writes, "Replace rotted wood as necessary". Who determines what is necessary? When you write install electrical per code you are at the mercy of the inspectors whims. I recently brought in a new sales rep that had been in the business for 11 years. He was shocked at the paperwork requirements that I have. Now in his 3 rd week, he complimented me on how smooth the opperation runs and that he is now comfortable with the paperwork / system. He sees why his former employer was a reck with stress and money problems.By the way Verbal Contracts are inforceable, be careful. Video taping your closing meeting where you go over the proposal holds up since the camera is in the open and your opening statement says that everyone ok's the video taping of the conference. It will never be perfect but we can improve the system along the [email protected]

8. 
   LRZ_ | May 24, 2000 10:50pm | #12

   *Not that the replies are unappreciated,but: You folks are making a Mt. out of a molehill! After a brief legal question/answer session the reality is this: If a written contract is altered in any way w/ out the knowledge/consent and agreement of ALL parties,said contract is void. If the written contract is not signed by all parties involved, no contract exists. Think about this:Has anyone here walked out of a bank with a loan before signing? Has anyone ever decided the interest rate was too high, so you simply rewrote the loan agreement to lower it,successfully? Also, reading the entire posting may be the key to avoiding tangential remarks...not that threads shouldn't evolve,they just should not devolve. Again,thank you for your replies-LRZ.

9. 
   Ryan_C | May 25, 2000 12:32am | #13

   *I think it's time for some flatulence jokes!

10. 
    Joel_B. | May 25, 2000 01:10am | #14

    *We just closed on a house we finished 2 months ago. The bank decided to give a $1,000.00 from the final payment to the home owner to do the laming at their house even though the ground work contractor has been paid in full. He needed to haul in more fill to raise the grade to proper height because we hit ledge. The bank had to me that the groundwork needed to be done before closing. I am very glad to be done with these home owners but it is also very discouraging when you put all that work into someone house to have them treat you like you are robbing them when the job is done. I dont have time to go into everything that has happened.

11. 
    robillard_ | Jun 19, 2000 01:56am | #15

    *LRZ,Basically they counter offered your proposal. It is now up to you to accept their counter by initialing their changes, changing your proposal to reflect their changes or by sending them a professional letter turning their counter offer down. You have not yet entered into a contract with them. An oral contract does not exist because you submitted them a written proposal to either accept or decline. Oral contracts are difficult to enforce because you get into the he said / she said thing.Sounds like you do not need to work for these people. Send them a nice letter and walk away ahead of the game, smiling. :)Good Luck!! ERR

2. 
   LRZ_ | Jun 19, 2000 01:56am | #16

   *
   I know,Iknow-I should have hung up when I heard "Is it cheaper if we pay cash?"...(NO.)
   I recently received from a prospective customer a proposal that not only greatly increased the scope of the project without my knowledge or consent, but added start and finish dates that are just not realistic.Also the proposal was returned UNSIGNED by the homeowner.
   Now I'm receiving messages that if I do not perform the job for far less than the quote, the State Attorney General as well as the IRS will be notified.
   Seems crazy, but I'm wondering if I have contractual obligations here?
   Any insight appreciated/commiseration expected. First such occurence in 16 years of business-so much for classified ads! Best-LRZ.