Question for home builders:
Some things just don’t make sense. I see an existing home in Holland, Michigan costing about $100 sq/ft and “the same house” (exisitng) in Folsom, California costing $215 sq/ft. Logic tells me that the cost to build in Holland, MI is something less than $100 sq/ft becasue they don’t give land away free.
I’ve always thought that it was land values that account for the difference, but how much of a factor is labor and materials from region to region?
We want to build a home, but in this depressed housing market is it even possible to do that without paying more than what you’d pay to get “the same house” off the open market?
Thoughts anyone?
Tom Hoffman
Folsom, CA
Replies
You will do far better buying an existing home from a seller than you will having a new custom home built. I see a lot of custom homes and I wonder if they would even appraise for construction cost right now.
Edited 8/16/2008 2:56 pm by davidmeiland
Another cost that may be included in the land or paid when the house is built.
That is developement and permit fees.
Some places you can take some land and break it up into lots and sell them and built a house for a few thousand or less in fees.
Other places you have to wait years and have 10's of thousand in legal fees to get a permit to divide the land.
Then more 10's of thousand per lot in impact fees, sewer developement fees, etc.
And then more 10's of thousand in permits and fees when you actually build the house.
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A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
That is developement and permit fees.
Aint that the truth.
Me building a house here now DIY will cost MORE in just fees, etc. than the actual entire construction from grading to finished - King Co. WA.
And on top of development and permit fees are impact fees. Here is my part of MD, you get to cough up almost $15K for an impact fee. Oh, and once that is paid, then you can purchase all of your permits.With the slowdown in the housing market, there is a growing trend here of buying a dump on a nice lot and using it as a teardown. Well and septic are usually already in place saving some $$$~ although the septic may need some work. But since you'd be replacing an existing home, you can get out of paying the impact fee. Travel 7 miles across the Mason and Dixon and the exact same house is $20 K cheaper due to less stringent and cheaper permitting and no impact fees. Of course you get hosed on the school taxes up there, so you picks your poison I guess.
Thanks to David, Bill, and others that responded. It never occured to me to think about development fees and permits. That's huge here in California.
Problem is, my wife and I can't find exactly what we're looking for. We've spent a lifetime making a list of what we want in a house, collecting pictures of style, etc. Guess we'll need to either accept what is available, or go custom and accept the fact that when we're moved in, we will have spent more than the house is worth on the open market.
If it's exactly what you know you want -- thats not the worst thing if you intend to stay and enjoy it.
The up side is that you might get a new house cheaper now than anytime within say the last 5 years. The price of lumber is down and lot of people are hungry for work.
The only way to really get a house that is set up exactly how you want it is either to have a custom built or build it yourself.Of course you still gotta pay for all those nice features you want...
"accept the fact that when we're moved in, we will have spent more than the house is worth on the open market."By that time, things could be turned around again any ways.
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when you build, you are paying the real cost, but when you buy, you are paying what the market will bear. Currently that is lower than construction cost in some places.
There is a great diff in cost from region to region too. We often have comparisons here at BT that highlight regional differences ion labour cost, materials costs, overheads, etc
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Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime.
where ...
Excellence is its own reward!
Keep in mind that people are outright dishonest about SF figures. In the northeast, we haven't seen $100/SF for decent construction (single new house) in 20 years - I absolutely don't believe that they're building for that in MI.
Regional differences may account for labor - maybe they have folks willing to work for $25/hour - I don't know - but material differences just aren't that big from market to market.
(BTW - I agree wholeheartedly with David above)
Jeff
Edited 8/16/2008 9:38 pm ET by Jeff_Clarke
"In the northeast, we haven't seen $100/SF for decent construction (single new house) in 20 years - I absolutely don't believe that they're building for that in MI."Not on a quality custom anyways.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
The $100/ sq/ft. I was referring to is an existing home. For example, look at: http://www.realtor.com/search/listingdetail.aspx?ctid=27111&ml=3&mnp=28&mxp=28&typ=1&sid=3beee99de4764233953a0d26c2efd82e&pg=3&lid=1094048174&lsn=24&srcnt=54#Detail
This one works out to be $84.27 sq/ft. Not the upper end of quality, but not just slap together with low end fixtures either.
You just can't compare existing to new. Different things determine what the price is. No builder will build new custom at a loss if he has a brain.A five year old house has been capitalized under different circumstances.
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That is a fairly large house - 4500 sq ft. If that is the size of house you want to build it might be a fair comparison. I also notice that it looks like ~1200 of that sq ft is in a finished basement - read cheap sq footage - that is likely somewhat less desirable than first floor or 2nd floor footage.
If you want something smaller expect a higher cost per sq ft, for similar finishes: Each house still only has one kitchen and that one has 3.5 baths but a house 1/2 the size (for example) isn't gonna have 1/2 the number of baths...
Now show us one in Folsom, California.
Edited 8/17/2008 1:19 pm ET by Matt
Matt: Good point about the basement (cheap square footage). Even if you take that out, it is still only $115. Here is a link to an average home in Folsom, CA. It works out to be about $211 sq/ft. http://template.metrolistmls.com/sacramentobee/cgi-bin/GetOne.cfm?MLSNum=80062064
What I'm trying to figure out about all this, is "what will it cost me per square foot to pay a contractor to build 'the same Michigan house' in today's market?" (just labor and materials - leaving out all fees, permits, land cost, etc.) If I have some ballpark idea, then I can do the math with bare land, fees, permits, etc. to get some clue as to whether or not it even makes sense to begin going in that direction.
I don't believe you build a plan in Folsom that you would build in western MI. For starters, CA houses don't have basements, in the sense upper midwest houses do.
If you have been living in the upper midwest, and have just moved to CA, you need to acclimate yourselves to CA living for a while. Your whole house "program" will likely change once you get into the CA lifestyle.
Houses are smaller there, and a lot of your home life is lived outside in gardens, decks, terraces, verandas, under pergolas, etc. You need less clothing, so clothing storage space can be less. There's more.
A CA house built into a hillside might have a "lower level," like a walkout basement you might see in MI, but for CA, the sitework to do something like that, versus just building on simple footings and a slab, might drive costs up.
I just went through a pricing and proposal session with a couple who wanted to build their dream house, after having worked with an architect for over two years to get all the details just right. They ended up in the same predicament as you.
They would have been substantially "under water" upon completion, having sunk costs in house, fees, land, sitework, and landscaping that placed their property $150K to $300K over what similarly sized existing houses, in the market, would command.
They decided to cancel all plans, and their lot is now for sale.
You might be best off to shop for a disagreeable house but on a good site in a great location, buy it and move in, then plan for a ground-up renovation planned in phases.
Shop for a place with good bones and in the location that is best for you.
View Image
"A stripe is just as real as a dadgummed flower."
Gene Davis 1920-1985
What'd you do, retire in 1985?
???????
View Image
"A stripe is just as real as a dadgummed flower."
Gene Davis 1920-1985
Gene Davis 1920-1985
Those aren't my dates, Rez. They're Gene's, the painter. But you knew that.
View Image
"A stripe is just as real as a dadgummed flower."
Gene Davis 1920-1985
"I see said the blond man"
I was going to ask him if he had ever actually been to Cali (108481.20).It kills me when people think CA is one big beach.
It's Holly-jive, I tell ya!
Christopher Robin got up in the morning, the sneezles had vanished away. And the look in his eye seemed to say to the sky, "Now how to amuse them today?".
It's not?????????
It just makes me laugh when people who haven't traveled CA make assumptions like that. CA has a pretty diverse landscape, maybe the most diverse in the nation. Not unusual for Truckee CA to be the coldest low in the nation during the winter, or Needles CA to be the highest during the summer.
Christopher Robin got up in the morning, the sneezles had vanished away. And the look in his eye seemed to say to the sky, "Now how to amuse them today?".
I haven't been to Cal since 1962, I imagine things have changed a little!
fishrite,
I've spent 7 years in SanDiego plus I visit there nearly every winter There is no way that California can be the coldest in the nation.. Ever hear of Embaress Minnesota? That tends to be the coldest spot with lows in the minus 40 range on a regular basis.
I will grant you the warmest spot on occasion.
On the other hand I think the coldest I've ever been was a summer I spent in SanFrancisco.. <grin>
I was just stating what they show on the national morning news for national highs and lows. It's not like I have any reason to lie about it. Gunnison CO is another town often mentioned for the lows.Both SF and SD are clear examples of how completely different CA can be in different areas.
Christopher Robin got up in the morning, the sneezles had vanished away. And the look in his eye seemed to say to the sky, "Now how to amuse them today?".
I lived not far from Fraser CO, which was often designated at the time as the coldest place in the country by the weathermen on TV. It was often minus fifty to minus seventy there at night.But that is only coldest spot where instruments were measuring things, recording them, and reporting in. I am sure there were colder places.
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Brrr! Couldn't cut it there for sure.
I was trying to make the point to Gene that not all of Cali is just a beach. And some here do have basements. It's the generalzations here that kill me. Like how he described the typical CA house. The OP lives about 9 miles from here, therefore he pretty much knows what a house in CA looks like.
Christopher Robin got up in the morning, the sneezles had vanished away. And the look in his eye seemed to say to the sky, "Now how to amuse them today?".
sorry to chase that rabbit off the track here, I knew what you were getting at.;)
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Wabbits?
We gots wabbits here?
Whichwaydidhego?Whichwaydidhego?
Christopher Robin got up in the morning, the sneezles had vanished away. And the look in his eye seemed to say to the sky, "Now how to amuse them today?".
Been all over CA, son. Needles, Death Valley, Barstow, San Diego, Auburn, Truckee, up and down the 5, the 101, the PCH, Monterey, Petaluma, all the wine regions (SLO area our favorite), stayed at some of your best in Napa, cruised the whole SF bay on a wooden schooner, worn ourselves out in the Bay area, stayed with friends in Black Hawk, done biz and visited with vendors in Red Bluff and Redmond, been totally fogged in in Sacremento, crawled all around the gold country, been out with our distributors and dealers in the big tract-building areas all around, the one of a kind customs in La Jolla and Palm Springs, ridden around all the great MC roads east of Lake Elsinore, over to San Juan Capistrano, done the Laguna Beach thing, shopped and lunched in Carmel. Yadda, yadda, yadda. Nice state you got there.
Last trip out, we enjoyed revisiting Marin, staying a little S of Point Reyes, had oysters from the Hog Island Oyster Company, then went up to Mendocino via first a twisty detour up the Russian River, then more wine, then that great CA 128 highway through the redwoods from Booneville over. Exited the state via Ft. Bragg and Eureka, on our way up to the Seattle area. You can have Eureka.
And I've been to Folsom, too. In winter, each month, there are a few nights that dip below freezing, but few. Very shallow frostline, if any.
They don't build houses in Folsom the same way they do in Holland, MI, and I have been all around Holland, too. Whaddya think the roof design loads are for snow in Holland versus Folsom, with Holland's lake effect taken into consideration? Seen lots of MI, from down around New Buffalo, in its far SW up through Douglas, Saugatuck, then Holland, and all the way up through Sleeping Bear Dunes, then over to Traverse City, through Petosky, then up by Macinac Island to the Soo. Been in Escanaba once when the temp was close to 40 below at noon.
Oh, yeah, and I have been to the beach. Spent time with friends in the south beach towns of Manhattan Beach and Hermosa Beach. Enjoyed the show up in Venice. I like Newport Beach and the fabulous sailboats you see going in an out. Walked the sands with all your San Diego area exercise freaks when staying at the La Jolla Beach and Tennis Club.
Visited Salinas just so I could try to understand Steinbeck a little better. I'm not sure I got much out of it other than a pretty good hamburger.
But I haven't been to Yosemite. Have you?
I live in New York, and you can probably say that most people think of NYC as NY, but in my little teenie town, with half of the names in the phone book looking as if they belong in Paris, very few of us get down to the big town.
View Image
"A stripe is just as real as a dadgummed flower."
Gene Davis 1920-1985
Edited 8/18/2008 9:40 pm ET by Gene_Davis
Edited 8/18/2008 9:44 pm ET by Gene_Davis
I have no idea of the building costs in Folsom CA are. You need to talk to someone who lives and builds there - or at least sells houses there. Although, I can't think of any reason why what you find in the MLS (web sites) would be that far off of what you would expect to pay - although that one is a little older.... Actually that one you pictured I thought was a little cheap from what I've heard of CA. You might want to find some new construction ones - or at least ones less than 2 years old.
The price of housing is based on what the market will bear. Not so much on how much municipal fees, land, building materials and labor costs - although that is some of it. It's called the fair market value. Right now I'm building in 2 neighborhoods, 5 miles apart - one is in demand and the other is not. 25% projected profit on the in-demand place and in the other we are lucky to make 5 or 10%. Same city, permit fees, etc, etc.
That's why in a down market savoy builders might end-up just not building. Or maybe pick up a few pre-sales and maybe even a remodel to tide them over.
BTW - you might want to think twice about building 'the same Michigan house' in CA. Building styles are regional. What looks right, is readily accepted and sells in one state may likely be a pink elephant elsewhere. I once saw a stately Georgian style home - big white columns and all - perched up on a hill in WY. Looked totally ridiculous - as much as I - being from the SE - love that style of home.
If you are moving from Michigan to CA for your job I hope you are getting a very significant raise.
In my capacity as a realtor weasel, I do market analyses for people thinking of selling their homes. 'S my job, you know.
Anyway, when we do such analyses, we price finished basement space much differently than above-grade space - usually no more than 10-15% of the value, unless it's an extraordinary finish level in a high-end house.
Jason, how do realtors in your area call out the footage in a listing, and how is the number arrived at?
I have bought and sold in Indiana and Missouri, and in both places the realtors did a careful set of measurements of the houses, figuring footage from outside walls, counting staircase footage only once, and when reporting area in a listing, only call out above-basement footage, but then describing separately other areas of finish such as basement finish, screened porches, under-roof terraces, etc.
Where I live now, it is like a game of liars' poker. The real estate folks (weasels all) just do a wild guess, and often wink when the owners lie to them about size, and list properties at claimed footage numbers that are just preposterous. Nothing gets discounted at all. If you had your slipshod cousin, out on work release, doodle up two (illegal per code) "bedrooms" in your no-window basement, they will be added in. Stuff like that.
The state-licensed appraisers cannot do that, of course, so we see situations where a buyer wants to buy this house, listed as 5 BR 3.5 BA, 4700 sf total living area, then has a fit when the bank, after the appraisal, wants to tell him or her the house is a 3 BR 2.5 BA at only 2077 sf footage.
View Image
"A stripe is just as real as a dadgummed flower."
Gene Davis 1920-1985
I am in the Kansas City area and MLS does not list sq ft AT ALL..
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A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
Jason, how do realtors in your area call out the footage in a listing, and how is the number arrived at?
On our MLS, square footage is shown as follows:
1. Above-grade, with main floor and second/third floors broken out as necessary;2. Below-grade finished area; 3. Total finished square footage.
In marketing materials these figures are usually whittled considerably, and the total finished space is used, or at most the above/below grade spaces are broken out.
Basement size is also shown as a percentage of the total main space. A split-entry, f'rex, will have 40-60%, whilst a ranch will usually have 100%.
"Finished" in my lexicon means drywall (or other wall system I suppose), floor coverings, finished ceilings, insulated, HVAC, plumbing, etc. You'd have a hard time convincing most buyers that anything else qualifies.
If there's a "bedroom" below grade that doesn't have an egress window, I list it as "non-conforming," and I don't include it in the bedroom count of the house. Most realtors locally generally label them as I do, or at most as a "potential" 3rd (4th, etc) bedroom. Every so often you'll see someone who's either clueless or a hack doing otherwise, though.
How others measure total SF I can't say, but we were trained to measure the outside perimeter of a house to compute total square footage. I have a 100' tape just for such occasions. : ) Rooms are measured individually (closets not included). And yes, staircases are only counted once. When we measure finished attic dormer space, it's from shoulder height only, not necessarily where the knee wall meets the ceiling.
That's about it for the moment - if I think of anything else, I'll post. : )
How do you define quality? Gold faucets?
Gold faucets are out of style. No quality there. Bronze is in. :-)
Lotta little things.Like advantec instead of OSBusing underlayment tarpaper or other behind siding and under roofing instead of skipping it when you can get away with it.Wood or FC siding - not vinyl.I see a lot of tract homes that are spray pained a couple quick coats so thin that it would not qualify as a decent primer coat around here. A quality exterior paint job here is brushed on. Three coats. When the weather is right.Using rebar in the concrete instead of skipping that.Hardwood and ceramic tile floors instead of carpet or sheet vinylcustom cabinets instead of whatever is on special at HD
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
advantec instead of OSB, underlayment tarpaper or other behind siding and under roofing instead of skipping it when you can get away with it, Wood or FC siding - not vinyl, quality exterior paint job brushed on Three coats When the weather is right. rebar in the concrete, Hardwood and ceramic tile floors instead of carpet or sheet vinyl, custom cabinets instead of whatever is on special at HD
You sure do talk like a guy who's been around the block a time or two!
Can I add a few of my favorites?
Shiplap or T-1-11 on the exposed eaves instead of painted OSB, galvanized nails on the fascia instead of vinyl coated sinkers, roof paper overlapping fascia instead of stopping short, ceiling boxes wired with 3-wire and attached firmly enough to support a future fan, wood baseboard and casing instead of mdf, window interiors trimmed with wood instead of sheetrock, Schlage locksets instead of Weslock, bathroom exhaust fans vented to exterior instead of to the attic, double-pole organizer closets instead of single pole and shelf with wire brace, shower tiles installed with thinset over cement rather than mastic glued to water resistant drywall... OK, I better stop there. That sure felt good!View Image “Good work costs much more than poor imitation or factory product” – Charles GreeneCaliforniaRemodelingContractor.com
Those Schlage might push the price to 60.05 per foot.
Well, you might be pushing my leg, but holy cow, have you priced locksets lately?View Image “Good work costs much more than poor imitation or factory product” – Charles GreeneCaliforniaRemodelingContractor.com
No but have you priced MI labor lately? They'll give anything away now to get a couple weeks work.
Not unlike Bakersfield. My paint store says guys are painting new 1800 s.f. homes for $1500, labor and materials complete. Framing? I don't know what they're paying, but the crews don't speak English, work 12 hour days, and sleep on the jobsite, if thats any indication. I think there's three houses in the whole city in the framing stage - but that number might be somewhat inflated. Man I love this business!View Image “Good work costs much more than poor imitation or factory product” – Charles GreeneCaliforniaRemodelingContractor.com
All the fun is going out of carpentry. Who wants to work like that?
Spent the last month putting on Trex decking, Trex handrails to come, pre stained Hardie siding and exterior MDF trim. So much for my woodworking skills.John
"My paint store says guys are painting new 1800 s.f. homes for $1500, labor and materials complete."few years ago, I built a garage with apt overhead. The lady said she had her own painters and wanted to use them. That is not uncommon here, for an estate to keep using their own electrician or plumber especially year after year because they know the systems in place...So it was fine with me.As it gets ready for paint, a crew of Guatemaleans shows up from her home in Wash DC. One of them can speak English. I go over things with him.Next morning when I get there, they have already painted 60% of the exterior, even though it is still dripping dew from the overnight fog with this being right on the water's edge. I tell the guy in charge he has screwed up and we each shrug shoulders and walk away from each other.Couple years later she has her agent in charge of management call me to make a complaint about the paint that is peeling off in sheets, and ask ME what I can do about it.I couldn't help but laugh at him, then I explained that she needed to roll back the clock to the day she chose to use that crew, and what they had done to screw her.She still uses them to repaint every couple years, but they are cheap! New way of looking at job security.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Okay...I understand. Yep, $60 per sf in MI right now.
Right now, in MI, you can build a very nice house for $60 psf plus the land. The lots have dropped down very significantly. I've heard reports that lots can be had for 10k now in some of the dead subs. Their prvious highs were 110k. Almost all the subs are now bank owned or they are still being held and paid for by builder/developers that have no income and would welcome the sale of one lot so they can make their bills one more month.
"Very nice" in MI for 25% of "very nice" in the NE.
OK
Jeff
Tom
There is a movie you have to see.. it's an old one 1949 I think. It's called
Mr. Blandings builds his dream house. Cary Grant & Myrna Loy.
The whole movie is a set up for the line his lawyer delivers at the end.. It's something you should really watch if you are considering building your own dream house.
Frenchy - Mr. Blandings Builds His Dream House is a wonderful movie - a big second here on seeing it (Cary Grant).
http://amysclassicmovieblog.blogspot.com/2008/05/blandings-builds-his-dream-house-1948.html
Jeff
Edited 8/17/2008 10:15 am ET by Jeff_Clarke
check http://www.realtor.com for listings around the country.
I recently checked there for listed properties in Ft. Worth Texas and discovered some large, newly built homes at prices which would barely cover the land and the materials costs.
Your best bet is to find a home close to where you want to live and close to what you want to live in.
Next you upgrade/change things to suit you. Avoid over doing it, cause you won't get the money back if you have to sell.
Most existing homes were built as one of many. So builder buy 100 bathtubs, 300 faucets, 100 kitchen sinks and faucets, 100 full kitchens etc. With this you get way better pricing than buying one.
Just as an example builders standard bathroom cost $5000, remodel of the same bathroom $12,000. One time new bathroom $7,500.
How long have you lived in Folsom?
Are there any other communities in CA that you might consider?
You will find a great deal of differences in the housing markets in the different regions.
(BTW, my DH has several projects in Folsom, just not what you are looking for.)
Christopher Robin got up in the morning, the sneezles had vanished away. And the look in his eye seemed to say to the sky, "Now how to amuse them today?".
I understand that there are some areas of Folsom that deals in housing.Even provide free meals.http://www.cdcr.ca.gov/Visitors/Facilities/FSP.html.
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A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
Folson is actually a very nice community.
Grown a lot over the last few years.
Christopher Robin got up in the morning, the sneezles had vanished away. And the look in his eye seemed to say to the sky, "Now how to amuse them today?".
I spent time in Folsom once.After I shot a man, just cause he called me Sue.
Click here for access to the Woodshed Tavern
I thought you died>G<
My sister used to live on Sutter Street in the 70/80's. I can't hardly recognize the place anymore when I pass through. Is there anyplace left to build in Folsom anymore? Mike
Small wheel turn by the fire and rod, big wheel turn by the grace of god.
Welcome to California. If you want a new custom home in Folsom then expect to be shocked. I know Michigan is kind of depressed right now so you should expect a maximum contrast between here and there.
I am a builder at Lake Tahoe. No one has to jump through more hoops and connect more dots and pay more fees before starting than the builders here.
I like Folsom. I looked at a lot there recently. It was close to the American River Bike Trail and Lake Natoma. It was on a very steep hillside with funky neighbors and the price was about 250K. That was on the lower end of the price range for lots. To build on thaty lot I was looking at about 100K just for the foundation and pony walls up to the main floor.
We have earthquakes here so engineering is always required. Learn all about grade beams, holddowns and shear walls. Add about 10 percent to the cost of building for seismic stuff.
If you build it yourself then you can save a lot of money but if you want to hire a few carpenters expect to pay about 80 dollars an hour per carpenter which includes workmens comp that is so high that many insurance companies don't offer it so you must buy it from the state. Roughly I can estimate that if you want a new custom home without many frills then expect to pay about 900K for about 2000 SQ FT plus the lot. If you want a T111 crackerbox with vinyl windows, paint grade MDF inside and low end fixtures and appliances then then subtract about 200K If you do everything yourself and don't have to pay workmens comp because your wife or your brother is helping then you can build it for about half price.
You're making me sound underpriced!
Nice that you stepped in with info for the folks.Can you go back and revisit the framing nailer/clipped head thread? I promised you'd be back later...or maybe you did.You keeping busy up there?
Christopher Robin got up in the morning, the sneezles had vanished away. And the look in his eye seemed to say to the sky, "Now how to amuse them today?".
hey, Mike....... my nephew , Chris Horton , lives in Tahoe... currently he works for an excavation company in the summer and on the mountain in the winterhe used to trick ski competively about two knees ago, nice young man... keep an eye out for meMike Hussein Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
We'll keep an eye out for you and Helen. Only 1 hour away, guest room, great dinner, we'll take ya for a great river tour on the boat (and fishing iffin' ya want).
Christopher Robin got up in the morning, the sneezles had vanished away. And the look in his eye seemed to say to the sky, "Now how to amuse them today?".
Heres a house for 5.55 a sq ft. Needs renovated and moved, but from the 1750's. 10Khttp://www.presnc.org/index.php?option=com_docman&task=doc_download&gid=38&Itemid=103 -
Thanks Mark
Think I'll pass though. I got this hankerin' to build me a timber frame on a mtn top soon as this piece a sh... house sells. Probably in my next life time at this rate.
RD : ) http://www.ramdass.org/
http://WWW.CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
Blog http://cliffordrenovations.com/WP/
oh yeh!! --> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=muhvpNuVN4Y
Are you still looking to move to Cali?
If so, I look forward to meeting you and your family.
Christopher Robin got up in the morning, the sneezles had vanished away. And the look in his eye seemed to say to the sky, "Now how to amuse them today?".
Are you still looking to move to Cali?<<
At this point selling my house would be a GREAT start!! UGH
RD : ) http://www.ramdass.org/
http://WWW.CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
Blog http://cliffordrenovations.com/WP/
oh yeh!! --> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=muhvpNuVN4Y
Well it looks like a great house, and you did a damn fine job of it! Just wish it were on the west coast...lol.
Are you going to make it up to Jim's next summer? I look forward to meeting you, Jolie, and Katrina, if you can make it.
Christopher Robin got up in the morning, the sneezles had vanished away. And the look in his eye seemed to say to the sky, "Now how to amuse them today?".
I need to sell this dump b/4 I spend money going anywhere but if it does sell by then...which it should I'll be at Jimbos but doubt Jolie will come...she just started SVA a few days ago and is in her own world now. Right up the street from Washington Sq Park.
And if I take the Merry Prankster's bus with Grant and the gang you can be sure the ladies will all go off on their own vacations that week...lol
RD : ) http://www.ramdass.org/
http://WWW.CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
Blog http://cliffordrenovations.com/WP/
oh yeh!! --> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=muhvpNuVN4Y
By all rights, I am pretty sure that I'm sturdy enough that coulda made it through the PubCrawl. Good luck, with your journey....
The "Merry Prankster's Bus" sounds like a great name! It has most definitetly graduated from the Mommy-Van.
Personally, I think I may take an Amtrack adventure up with my 15yo DD.
(Son recently moved to Seattle, and I have alot of family up there too.)
You lost me at SVA...what is that?
pm me if you prefer, since we have taken this off-topic.
Christopher Robin got up in the morning, the sneezles had vanished away. And the look in his eye seemed to say to the sky, "Now how to amuse them today?".
http://www.schoolofvisualarts.edu/about/index.jsp?sid0=68
RD : ) http://www.ramdass.org/
http://WWW.CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
Blog http://cliffordrenovations.com/WP/
oh yeh!! --> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=muhvpNuVN4Y
It's not only land that is worth more in one place than another, but also the home that sits on it. The market dictates not only land values, but more importantly the package as a whole. It can't be explained by material and labor costs, only by supply and demand. Maybe that's one of the things that makes the real estate business so interesting. Location is a (the bigest?) part of the finished product.
Brian
You could buy the "same house" for a good bit less in markets experiencing the current oversupply-of-existing situation. COULD. You could, if you could find it. You won't because you probably don't want the "same house" as you can find already built. You want what you've been trying to define for years now with all your clippings.
We're in the same situation in metro Atlanta, GA. Nearing retirement. It's been a real education to find out how much more a custom house costs. Custom, to us, means not just the features you see. Our specs include the rebar in the driveway and how closely it's spaced; the construction details for the underground drains that take the water from the gutter downspouts away from the house; what to use for blocking and where to put it so toilet paper holders, towel rods, and grabbars don't pull out of the wall. That's what I mean by custom. It's not what everyone means.
I think you have 2 questions. The answer to the first is NO. It's cheaper to buy. BUT you won't get the house you've been dreaming of and you won't really know what you've got.
Your second question, the actual dollar figure, cannot be answered without help from custom builders in the area you're gonna build in. And they will vary. One thing we found they varied on was whether or not they wanted to adhere to detailed specifications. If you want that, I'd suggest getting your prospective builder recommendations from a local architect. The builders an archy uses are into following detailed specs. That's how we finally found our builder. The others will build your house their way. If you don't care about what you can't see, then you'll have a much wider choice of builders. Some will build it really well; some won't. You won't know till later.
You just have a decision to make first. And then some homework to do. It's gonna take 1 or both of two things to make that dream a reality: more money than you're thinking; and/or a willingness to live without some of those dreams.
I you decide to build, my suggestion is to do it only if you're able to commit to living there longterm. If not, you're too vulnerable to market forces to make the custom-build commitment. There's no way the house we're going to build will appraise for the cost to build it. Appraisers don't care about what we do. Nor do banks.
If you can stay there, my other suggestion is to build a house that will support you longterm, so the house itself doesn't force you to move. We chose a location near medical facilities and with services old people need (home health care, delivery services, etc) and in a safe neighborhood. Had to buy a teardown to get it.
Then we designed a house to fully accommodate wheelchairs/scooters, with cooking and bathroom facilities for someone in a wheelchair or with other limited abilities. So, hopefully we can stay there. Otherwise we'll lose our shirts on the deal.
It's a big decision. Good luck with it.
"I you decide to build, my suggestion is to do it only if you're able to commit to living there longterm. If not, you're too vulnerable to market forces to make the custom-build commitment."
Very good advice.
Jeff
MtnBoy,
Heaven help you if you want something out of the norm..
If you want a ICF house rather than a stick built house, if you want to celebrate wood instead of hidding it behind sheetrock.
The number of people able to and willing to do such work is very finite and those people are hard to find.. Thus they aren't afraid to command a real premium for their services..
At that point if working within a budget your only real option may be to do the work yourself..
Absolutely right. We didn't even attempt anything out of the norm because I have a normal sized bank account. But what is the craftsman-quality or cutting edge, as they say, stuff you're talking about isn't the only thing that's hard to find. I'm using Icynene, now becoming more common here, but not 3 yrs. ago when I started planning. Using hydronic in-floor radiant heat. Almost no one does that in this climate; another stumbling block. I'd like things well-fastened together, as in roofties and having the house actually attached to the slab. All very doable. Most of what I came across was "customizing" builders (what floor covering do ya'll want? ditto, countertops, appliances). And those were the builders who bothered to put themselves out there as custom.In the multi-million dollar house range here (which I am NOT in) the windows are not what I call premium. I wanted high-performing, well-sealing fiberglass. A benefit in a hot climate as much as in Canada. Yet an oddity. Not a technical problem, just different.It's the first--and, I hope--last house I've ever had built. We hope to go out of the house toes up, so we're building for us. It'll appreciate, assuming the historical trend resumes eventually. So, the heirs will have a nice chunk of change when they sell it. All my money will be locked up in it for them and that suits me just fine.Assuming, also, that I live thru the process. The planning and worrying about has been the biggest project I've ever taken on. And I'm not even building the thing (don't have those skills)!
MtnBoy,
Please don't sell yourself short.. I started my home late in my 50's. I've been a salesman all of my life and as a result I've lived a sedentary lifestyle all my life.
I'm fat, old, and out of shape!
I've been a sidewalk supervisor and read a great deal (but never stayed at a Holiday Inn Express) <grin>
I built my own place (for pictures go to 85891.1 & 94941.1. ) what's more by doing things myself I saved, well an awful lot of money compared to the numbers the "experts" bantied around. (a million +)
Those who've been thru my home comment on how solidly it's built.. By my calculations it should withstand any wind we're ever going to get Including an F5 tornado!
true I can't do everything myself.
However I hired non-construction people and taught them what I wanted done..
I didn't want to argue with "experts' to get things done the way I wanted them done... So I took ministers (2) math teacher, theatre lighting director, etc. who wanted to earn a nice wage, paid above prevailing wages and as a result got great can do attitude!
My sister in law with absolutely no construction experiance at all filled in and finished the ICF foundation (I'd laid the starter course before I was bedridden). I gave her a 20 min. drug slurred instruction. She did a great job and finished it in one afternoon.
It's been fun and never went as fast as I thought it should. That was my fault. I never accepted anything less than great work and if I had to do something over I would! There is absolutely no compromise in my home..
As for tools, Buy the best and when you're done sell them on Craigslist for about 1/2 of what you paid for them.. great tools make the differance! They make even lousy woodworkers look good..
Use equipment rather than muscle. There is no way I could have muscled those giant timbers in place with the equipment I had they just floated in place like a feather.. hardest thing was to turn the ignition key <grin>
I broke so many "rules" in building this place. for example I went direct to a sawmill and bought my wood direct.. If I'd bought it from a lumberyard or big box store I would have nearly $900,000 in wood but since I bought at a sawmill I had around $25,000.
Instead of buying flooring Imake my own and thus a 1000 sq.ft of black walnut costs me around $400 finished. That's everything.. from the purchase of wood to renting the sander etc.. I finished it using shellac because shellac really is a great durable finish that a lousy painter (me) can do a perfect job with.
I used recycled stain glass windows but put them behind double paned glass for better insulation value. Local glass company charged me a tiny fraction of what purchased windows would have cost. For example Andersen gets. $350.00 for one sized window. I got double paned glass for $58.00 and made my own frames.
MY carriage doors I'm making myself and I'll have about $25.00 worth of black walnut in them a few cents worth of glue boxes of stainless steel screws and about a 1/2 gallon of spar varnish.. I suspect they would cost well north of a couple of thousand if I bought them..
Oh and they are stout too. 4 inches thick solid hardwood with double paned glass. (gonna make my own stained glass to install behind them)
Let me repeat this has been fun, It's nice to see steady progress and know that you're building exactly what you want. No compromise due to money.. True it takes up my spare time completely but when I get tired of doing one thing I go do something else..
Holy--whatever! Well, now that's "awesome" as the kids say. You really oughtta tell that story in a magazine article or local cable TV show or something. Not that any of the vested interests particularly want it to get out that a regular Joe CAN build his own house and for a lot less money. Didn't people once do that, BTW? Before regulations, inspections, mortgage lending, insurance, and all the overlay that so complicates everything a person tries to do now? I might have tried it myself if my brother would've helped me with it. He said all the people he built with had either moved away or died, and he just didn't wanna do it with new folks. My heart's just not in doing it myself and there are too many other things on my plate just now anyhow.But kuddos to you, and I hope you get it done just the way you want it.
anudder ting for long term are local property taxes...most people in out town are paying more per month in taxes today than they were paying on mortgages 20 years agoso one expects to stay in a houswe for long term don't forget what long term does to property taxesespecially in desireable places that are forced to expand their goods and services
and the new influx of mone to these areas also tends to accelerate the local taxesMike Hussein Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
True. True about the taxes whether you buy or build. So, your advice to the O.P., who apparently left us awhile back, would be to just buy something 'cause he won't be able to stay anywhere anyway. And if he builds, he's likelier to lose out financially when taxes force him to move. Guess I'd say yes, and plan for it. I wanted to move to the sticks, but my better half kept asking how long to get to the hospital; where's the nearest cardiac specialist, endocrinologist, etc; how'll we get groceries when we can no longer drive. So, I realized most old folks don't belong in the stix. Makes life harder.Then, instead of looking for cheap land and cheap taxes, I plopped us down in the middle of a totally built-out, high rent suburb. (Lived all our lives in a crappy, big-builder starter home; now in a gang-infested rental neighborhood. Saving money up.) Found the lot we wanted, asked the homeowner if he wanted to sell, and we'll bulldoze the existing house.Taxes are high already; got county and city. Already carved out the income source that's hopefully gonna cover those. If not, we'll have to move like everybody else. But maybe we won't get hit as hard as if we'd done it the other way. Can it get worse? Oh, yeah. Can't control everything, but we're planning/budgeting for the worse.Here's the thing: the O.P. sounded like this was his final home/dream home. The old folks I know don't move well; hate change in general; hate to find new doctors, etc. So, it's real discouraging to think we'll all have to keep moving all the time, especially when we become old crotchety goats like me.Guess what I'm saying is if you keep moving out to control your longterm costs, then you're living above your means. Fine when you're young. Not when you're looking at the endgame. I think we're covered for as long as we can expect to live. We never moved onward and upward till now. Once we even made a downward move and pocketed the cash in savings. Real estate agent went berserk! "No body does that." Well, I'm nobody. But I've had a plan all along. I want us to live our fragile years in safety and comfort. If it pans out, it will have been worth the effort.
Edited 8/22/2008 3:29 pm ET by MtnBoy
>> It's cheaper to buy. BUT you won't get the house you've been dreaming of and you won't really know what you've got. <<
Re the "you won't really know what you've got" part, I know what you mean but on the other hand the majority of the homebuyers I build for simply cannot look at house plans and visualize what the spaces are going to look like anyway. So they won't really know what they are getting until the house is done. Also things don't always turn out as planned, or perhaps even as the builder wanted them too. So you have to be flexible when building too...
For example: I told my framers to frame some TV niches. They did. I wanted them to run the sides straight back from the front "hole" in the wall like we usually do. In this case the way they framed them the "hole" is something like 52" wide and the space behind is around 60" wide. At that point I had to make the decision - do I have them come back and frame them the way I really wanted, or just roll with it. They could probably charge me extra if they wanted... Or I could add a bunch of blocking myself to make them the way I "normally" have them built. I decided to roll with it. So the trim guys had to cut the shelves in kind of an odd 'T' shape. They said they didn't mind and everything came out OK. They did waste one $28 sheet of material because of some mis-measurement which probably wouldn't have happened if it were a simple rectangle. Now I know that description was a little hard to follow, but you get the idea of the scenario.
Sounds like you are a more savy though then these customers I have who just can't visualize...
BTW - how is your situation coming along? Did you get a new builder?
Also, BTW - since we first started talking about your situation I finished up 2 houses where the homebuyers owned the land. At the end it was apparent that if they didn't want to make their final payment there was little I (we) could do about it except get a lawyer. The only thing I had to hold over their head was the house keys. Luckily these were nice people and everything came out fine. It made me think about our previous discussion about why builders prefer to own the land. I think you said it was because they could make more money if they own the land - there is more to it than that...
Well, yes I got a new builder, who seems like he'll do an even better job. We're still working out ALL the details to go into the contract. I understand what you're saying. As a builder I don't think I could handle it if there weren't a bank involved--that does give you better protection. That's the case on both sides. Even if I had all the cash in hand I'd still take out a mortgage. Partly to have the bank administering the money. So in my situation, and probably most folks do get a mortgage, the bank rolls my land into the loan. So if I default, they get to own the land too. Don't know how builders protect themselves the other way. Lawyers, yeah. But the reality of it has more to do with what the owners have at stake. And how good your records are. I suspect folks heavily invested in their own land and a nice custom home aren't gonna miss a final payment. Though they might delay payment if they weren't happy with the work. (Things could get just as messed up for you if YOU owned the land, you know. Once they start paying for construction on it, it's all intertwined, messy.)It's a nerve-wracking business on both sides. I just had to find the way I felt safest. BTW, those builders who own a lot of real estate and have no takers now are going under right and left. They stand to gain a lot, and to lose a lot. Glad you came out okay with yours.
>> Glad you came out okay with yours. << Well we came out rather well on those 2 and I have 4 presales that we will do well on but I have another neighborhood of spec where we are loosing our shirt. And then the company has 2 other neighborhoods where the sales have been nil to none - condos and townhouses - all spec. On the one where I said we are loosing our shirt we are selling, but some at cost (excluding overhead). The only thing we have accomplished is to provide our subcontractors with work... and keep me busy. The thing that kills me though is that we still have to deliver the house as if we were were making money. Same old scenario - have a walkthrough with the customer and they can't find anything really wrong with the house so then their real estate agent has to show his/her worth and starts finding spots in the drywall about the size of the head of a pin behind where the washer will go... They know a lot about home building from watching HGTV... Maybe instead of calling them ambulance chasers they should be called "builder chasers" :-).
Regarding the two where the cust owned the land and I said we came out good on, actually there were banks involved and that was part of the problem. They were not local banks so they were dependent on some flunky construction appraisers who didn't know drywall from sheathing. The one I suspect never even actually came to the house. I E-mailed her pictures of the progress as she twice told me (over the phone) that she had been out but forgot her camera. The first time I was supposed to meet her she said she had a flat tire - I had waited for like 5 hours. At the end there was maybe a 2 or 3 week delay for the final checks and I was on pins and needles. I had told both HOs that there was no way I was giving them the keys until I got the checks. That put a fire under their butts. They were made out to us and them, so they got them and had to sign them and give the check to us. We really needed the money to pay our subs and suppliers. As I said though both families were nice people and it was all good.
One guy in our office told me stories of his customers holding back 10s of thousands of dollars (or more) for little punch stuff. I try to have zero punch stuff when customers take possession but it does happen. A missing window screen, countertop sidesplash, etc. The thing is that when they own the land, whatever is on the land is theirs too... Possession is 9/10s of the blah blah blah
>> They stand to gain a lot, and to lose a lot. << EXACTLY!! That is why I prefer to be just an employee for now. The housing industry (both new and used) is taking a real beating in my area too and there is a cleansing going on of builders, subs and RE agents too. I'm keeping my fingers crossed but if you see my BT posts shoot up to 15 a day you will know what happened...
Sometimes I hear from a sub "Well the builder was so cheap <insert insignificant detail>" blah blah blah and he won't pay as much as a want.... These guys have no idea what a chess game being a builder actually is... Heck - I'm sure I've only seen the tip of the iceberg...
Human behavior never ceases to amaze me. Try to keep on an even keel with humor, like thinking of that hot undertaker in the movie Men in Black--when she comments "I hate the Living."It's a real mess. I couldn't do it at all. Current builder has had trouble with the last 2 he built, since the banks got really tight about lending. Said on one, a real modern steel/concrete deal, the bank sent some appraiser who didn't get the value of it at all. Another one was more of a historic reproduction, an intown neighborhood where you get a sliver of land for $400K, etc. Said a couple of times he's scheduled an entire day to go sit with these folks and show them where the value lies. Mine will be the same, so I'm sure we're headed down that same road.Yeah, best you don't have all you own hanging on this mess. Also good that you're still working thru all this. Selling at/below cost is definitely happening here.Good luck!