Countertop problem, what would you do?
Because I”m still green in my new business I have run into a situation that I am not sure how to properly handle to create a win-win situation if possible.
About 10 days ago I picked up and installed a countertop for a customer. When I left the fabricator I didn’t really notice anything bad about the countertop. When I installed it I didn’t notice anything bad until AFTER I installed it. Due to the size the fabricator had to use another piece of laminate. They did a very nice job of making the joint invisible, you can’t even feel it. What DOES show, however, is a distinct difference in color/shading. It clearly is the same style of laminate but it is ever so a hairs shade different. Of course this helps to cause one to see the joint also. I noticed it at the time of the install, but reasoning it was due to the pieced laminate I went on just thinking it was part of what you may get on a top that size.
Well now today, 10 days later the HO calls and said she noticed it and thought she could live with it, but said that she decided she just can’t and that under various lighting conditions it shows like a sore thumb. Indeed that is true as I saw. When I saw it at first it wasn’t pronounced but noticable. To her it’s become pronounced with her kitchen lighting and daylight lighting. She was very nice about it but said she’d like it to not be that way since it’s just in fullview sight of everyone to see.
I an anticipating that the fabricator may not be willing to replace it at no charge. For one they have signs up all over to inspect for damage BEFORE leaving the loading dock. For another, it’s been 10 days and I anticipate the fabricator saying “what took so long.” What took so long is the HO was trying to oversee it, but in the end just got tired of how much it kept sticking out to her, that can be my only answer.
What should I do? What is proper? The HO has given me good work in the past and future, I dont’ want to be hardnosed, and I did inspect teh top for damage, but only under certain lighting can you tell the shade difference.
Replies
Call the fabricator, and explain the situation. He should replace it at no cost. It was faulty when it was built. This isn't damage that could have occured during shipping.
If he doesn't tell him that he is wrong. Then, find a new fabricator, and buy a new top. Consider it an expensive lesson.
In the end, it is ultimately your responsibility to provide YOUR customer with what she wanted.
Edited 10/29/2005 6:04 pm ET by dustinf
It WOULD be an expensive lesson indeed. The top alone cost me $525.If at first you don't succeed, try using a hammer next time...everything needs some extra persuasion from time to time. -ME
$525 is chump change. Imagine having to eat $5250 or $52,500,
because it does happen. All part of the cost of doing business.If you handle this with white gloves, I am sure that the
word-of-mouth will come back to you with a nice multiplier
effect.
$525 chump change? yeah, when you consider that it could be a lot more, you're absolutely right.
I recently did another top job. Two times I went over with the HO how the top was to look because the design of it changed several times as we fiddled with how to make the look he wanted to look right architecturally. Once the design was approved, TWICE by him, I ordered the top. I put it in last week and the HO says no, it's wrong. They wanted me to buy a new one and round a sharp corner with a 6" radius. Never mind the corner is in an area where it won't hurt anyone. Still, he wanted me to fix it.
This is one case I stood up for myself. It was $216 for me to buy a new one. I figured $50 labor to reinstall it once it came in. He wanted to go half an half. I said no, said it'll cost me $262, I'll eat the $50 labor but he eats the top because I reminded him of two trips I made to verify his wants. two hrs later he calls back, said he'll buy the top. So there isone case I'm outta only about $50 labor. But in this case...yeah, $525 is chump change but a little more painful than $50 labor :) If at first you don't succeed, try using a hammer next time...everything needs some extra persuasion from time to time. -ME
Tell the fab shop you did inspect for damage whern you picked it up, and in fact it isn't damaged. It's defective. Two thoughts: they used laminate from two different lot numbers, or one is turned 180 degrees and the little "grain" that there is has become visible.
See if the HO will pay for half of the material cost, and you do the install at no charge. And see if the shop will pick up the other half of the cost.
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
I'll try and do as you say with the HO but the HO has already expressed no willingness to pay for anything. This was basically an L shaped top, 108" on the one leg (backsplash length) and 97" on the other leg with square edging, nothing fancy here and I billed the job out at $740 which they already thought was excessive (there was a smaller top also in the job making the total countertop material costs $575, I made $165 profit to come at the $740 figure). For that reason they already feel they overpaid but gave me the job because I do a lot of other work for her she likes.
If it is as you say, defective, then I'd say the fabricator should be on the hook. Ithink yoiu are right about the "grain" because the entire section is the same shade off.
Assuming the fabricator will replace it I'm going to be out of about another 3 or 4hrs labor on my dime, in essence that zeros out my profit into an actual negative loss because I have to travel to pick it up again, dismantle the "new" one and the sink and all, and redo the labor all over again. It doesn't make me happy one single bit but no way in HE double L will they reimburse my labor I know. If at first you don't succeed, try using a hammer next time...everything needs some extra persuasion from time to time. -ME
This is part of the learning process. You pick it up, you look it over like a nit picking fool and that should please your most discerning customer. The shop should redo it, laminate is not that different when out of the same lot. If there is a grain or pattern, a mitre of sorts should have come out of the turn.
It's not fun making zero, but the good press you'll get out of this should be profitable, even if just from this one customer. Course, you could be a dick like alot of the others in the area. Your choice.A great place for Information, Comraderie, and a sucker punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
Quittin' Time
No, I don't wanna be a jerk to my customers, especially when they keep giving me good work, and I want my reputation to be known for making things right when they go wrong instead of trying to dicker around and leave the wrong uncorrected.If at first you don't succeed, try using a hammer next time...everything needs some extra persuasion from time to time. -ME
It could also be a mix-up with the finish of the laminate. Both pieces can be the same color, but have a different finish. Or what previous posters said where the grain is perpendicular to one another. Or could just be a manufacturer's defect. The top shop should make it right. If just relaminating the bar leg would make it right, that would make it the easiest fix. If the back-wall was the messed up piece, with an applied backsplash, they may just make the whole top over again. Every top shop is different, but they should make it right.You may want to rethink how to estimate jobs with an acceptable mark-up and labor charge. You're way too low!......and stop worrying! Worst things have happened!View Image
You really think I"m too low?
I had the fabricator cut the sink hole, it was included in the price. Took me about 4 hrs to do the job (I estimated 3). I thought $740 was fair for basically one L top and one small 23" x 32" top for the small island she has.
I dont' want to be too low, but fair, what would you have charged if I may ask from curiosity?If at first you don't succeed, try using a hammer next time...everything needs some extra persuasion from time to time. -ME
You showed up, measured, and contacted for pricing.
You took out the old sink, disconnected the DW, removed the old top and disposed of it.
You picked up or met the fabber for delivery. Installed the tops, the new sink/faucet/garbage disposal, and DW. Cleaned up and paid your bill.
In 4 hours?
You da man.A great place for Information, Comraderie, and a sucker punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
Quittin' Time
Uh, I mean 4hrs from the time I arrived on their site til I was done. Ihad "some" free help, I won't elaborate on that.If at first you don't succeed, try using a hammer next time...everything needs some extra persuasion from time to time. -ME
Average laminate counter install runs $15.00 per lineal foot. Assuming 20 lin.ft. for your job, you should be able to charge $300. Removal and haul off extra $150 or so. If you go with lineal foot pricing, just make sure you make your hourly wage goals.
in essence that zeros out my profit
Write it off into the "goodwill" catagory. If you don't change the top, or if you force the HO to pay for it, she will always tell her friends that you were difficult to deal with and did a bad job on the top ... no matter how much she likes the rest of the project.
If you make it like she wants, she will tell everyone that you were great to deal with and you did whatever it took to make the job perfect.
Which referral do you want?
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
Naturally I want the positive referral, and there is no questoin here, I will make it right even at zero profit. I need positive referrals to keep a good business name not to mention feed my family. Indeed, it may have to go in the goodwill column because even if the fabricator does make a new one, no matter what I'm outta the labor to redo the job and can only consider it investment into my reputation.If at first you don't succeed, try using a hammer next time...everything needs some extra persuasion from time to time. -ME
WW:
You're going to take an a$$ whuppin' no matter how you slice it. Once you accept this fact, take it like a man and move on, you will be surprised how little it really hurt. This may take a few days or weeks to realize, but you will.
I paid ten thousand dollars for a shop brush once, so you're getting off easy. That's another thread.
Try offering her money back to live with the top the way it is. It's fast and easy and she just might take it. Women can overlook an awful lot for cash. Proof? Look at who they're married to.
Willie -
You write that the countertop is an L with one leg being 108" and the other being 97. This means that if the laminate has a grain, you will get the same result. That is because the fabricator cannot get laminate where the grain is offered in a perpendicular direction.
For a comparison, consider a herring bone style floor. On leg of the "feather" design is always going to be lighter, until you view it from the opposit directing. Then the same leg is darker
Explain thisto the Home Ywner.
There he goes—one of God's own prototypes—a high powered mutant of some kind never even considered for mass production. Too weird to live and too rare to die.
—Hunter S. Thompson
from Fear And Loathing In Las Vegas
Interesting. Thanks. I recently installed two pieces of laminate backsplash on a wall, I did not have this problem. I don't know what the "grain" is all about as I"m fairy new to countertops, but I'd say in the backsplash installation there must've not been this "grain" because both pieces look fine. Just confused, and still learning here.If at first you don't succeed, try using a hammer next time...everything needs some extra persuasion from time to time. -ME
I live in a small, conservative, blue collar area. In other words it's tough to make money here sometimes. I have to be careful what I do and how I price it to make a living. You are too low by a long shot. I saw on another thread you were looking at a job of 120k. If you priced it in a similar way you might want to revisit that number as you are not getting paid for the risks involved.
Here is how I would price the counter. We bill labor at 50 an hour. (if you are thinking you can't get that where you live my competitors bill at 25-35 and hour and in my area you can hire a licensed electrician for $35 so it is possible) Go talk with the HO and measure = 1 hour. Figure the job and give a quote = 1 hour. Let them make a selection of laminate, back splash design and front edge design - 1 hours. Order and pick up laminate = 1 hour. Install laminate = 4 hours. $560 plus my 25% mark up = 700. This all totals $1100 and I would throw in a hundred because usually something under the sink needs replaced like a supply line, drain part etc. Total quote = $1200. To expensive for the HO? Ok, that will give me time to find more profitable work or take the afternoon off and fish. I can stay at home and make no money and it is more fun.
And as Cal and the others have said this is a learning experience. I have had this exact situation in the past. My customer was selling the house and didn't mind but I always knew I should have caught it. But we all eat one for the team if you will. But you won't live long in this business if your aren't making money. DanT
Wow, I see why you feel I"m way under. In my area most guys are doing the $30/hr thing and I"m trying to do $50/hr. I agree there is time in measuring and ordering the top. I wanted to bill for it, but I felt it made my price way too high. If someone came into my house and said theyd want $1200 to replace my top of that size and shape I'd probably show themthe door and say you can get prefabbed units at HD for a hundred or two dollars.
When I started this full time I knew I was often underpriced and have been trying to go much higher. Until I feel my way aroiund more I keep feeling like I am walking a fine line as to what is a reasoinable cost vs. a cost the HO would show me the door for.
Your advice is warranted and I will certainly take it to heart and apply it accordingly. People like you can only help me, not hurt me, so I appreciate your comments.If at first you don't succeed, try using a hammer next time...everything needs some extra persuasion from time to time. -ME
We have all been there. The next time you have 3 weeks worth of work booked so you feel comfortable that you won't starve bump the next estimate you do 25%. I think you will be surprised at how many you get. Will you get them all? Nope. But the ones you do get you will make twice as much as you have been and this business suddenly gets easier when you can buy a new tool when you need it. DanT
One of the greatests comforts to me is that on BT I've learned thru past posts that I'm not the only one to make stupid mistakes. I taught myself a lot of what I know along the way to get into this full time along with other people who believe enough in me to impart their knowledge. But what I've not had is someone to help me learn the art of estimating and how to fiscally responsible when it comes to issues such as the top issue. So I learn along the way thru my bad decisions and the advice of others such as yourself. Next estimate I will go up 25% more. If at first you don't succeed, try using a hammer next time...everything needs some extra persuasion from time to time. -ME
Careful about referencing your pricing opinions with those of your prospective customer - they are not the same.I wouldn't have anyone do anything for me, but my clients are obviously not the same.I started out 1 year ago and have gradually raised my pricing for every job based on working knowledge and info gathered here and elsewhere.I was just thinking the other day that most folks have no problem paying their mechanics $80-90 hour, so if we charge $55-65 hour and make housecalls, that's quite a bargain. JT