Stairway hole on second deck is immediately below the roof ridge, above. Second deck hole is above that of first deck, making a long fall a possibility when working to frame that roof. I know that in commercial construction, doing high rise steel erection, ironworkers require floor decking to proceed behind so they are never working more than two floors up over a deck. What do residential safety codes say about stairwell protection?
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I don't know. A sheet of plywood usually gets thrown over the hole, sometimes with some flat 2x4's underneath for extra support. When the stairs get built tempory 2x4 gaurdrail might get nailed in, whichgets torn out when the sheetrock gets hung. Then the poor tapers have to watch their step, along with everyone else who walks around up there, till the stairrailings get done.
I know I will get some heat for this but there are codes for all youns builders....its called the OSHA codes. I have to take an OSHA 10 hour class every three years. And this discussion did come up.....OSHA codes apply to all commerical enterprises in the US. The question came up "how come you never hear of OSHA going after home builders".... and maybe someone here can answer it.....has anyone here in the housing industry or light commercial ever had an OSHA inspection or know of an accident that was investigated by OSHA?
Have a good week
Dan
danz
I have never had a OSHA ispection myself but the death that I refered to in an earlier post did get OSHA out on the work site, the company that we were subbing for was so nervous that they had all of us take a couple of days off so that no one was around to yak.
I do know that the framer was fined, dont know how much.
Doug
Either cover it or put up railings. I don't know what the code is, but it sounds like common sense has already told you what to do.
Listen to that voice in your head. It is smarter than you are.
Another day, another tool.
I asked after the fact. Yesterday, at a job down the street from mine, a young framer went from the ridge of a 12:12 roof, straight down the pipe, through both holes, all the way to the basement floor, almost 40 feet. A life flight 'copter took him away, because his immediate emergency care needs must have been beyond the capabilities of the local EMS crew and small hospital.
Edited 4/26/2003 2:17:12 PM ET by Mr. Micro
Your story is sobering--most of us can think of plenty of times when something like this could have happened. One problem I've seen is that while many workers notice hazards, & think something should be done, no-one wants to be the first to 'chicken out' and complain about it: ("what a sissy".......) I think it's worse on jobs with a lot of people---the assumption that someone else will see to it grows.
My brother is an ironworker (after my dad & grandpa & along with another brother) He once stepped onto a plywood guard over a stairwell that barely had a purchase, (not secured) and it became an 'elevator'; Luckily for him, it 'sailed' with his weight fortunately centered on the panel, and he 'flew' down to the next level upright. I think this was many stories up......I thought of him when I read your post.
There is an adversarial relationship when it comes to inspectors, shop stewards, etc. (no, I've never been either one of those)--kind of like tattle tales or complainers or 'big brother' vibes.......but we should listen to ourselves more.
I figure it's up to those of us who are working around the hazards to respect ourselves, and spend the time it takes to stay unhurt (or alive!). I don't complain about stuff--I just do what I think is needed to feel safe. Funny thing about that is, when I've had others working with me, I noticed that the same guys would volunteer to be in my crew the next day & the next........for example, especially after I refused to use the job-built scaffold that some guy ran over with a Bobcat right before it was put up...........("aw, it's still o.k.......")
I've been around jobs where the siding crew went up on skip-jacks that some lowly gopher corraled by the contractor put up: how about 6d nails, just a few, for the plywood panel on the roof that held the top of the column? (guess the gopher was in a hurry to get off the roof......and HE wasn't going to use the scaffold, anyway...) This was in super windy Colorado....same job had stacked roof sheathing on the 3 story roof, and at a break we watched "52 card pickup" as the sheets billowed over our heads.....the corner of one hit a guy right in his back.......not a good scene.
my motto--never too proud to be safe, never too hurried to do it right.....Lil'Acorn
I KNEW it didn't make sense that I was telling you to cover up the hole! More likely the reverse. I almost didn't post for that reason, but your initial posts reads that way (or nearly), so I did.
Rich Beckman
Another day, another tool.
Like everyone else, I say cover it up. I stepped through one while backing up with a lenght of 3" pvc to stick up through a chase wall. I was lucky, I only fell 8', and landed on a pile of pea gravel dumped in the basement before the floor was poured. The section of pvc pipe missed spearing me in the head by a few inches. I still lost one day of work because I was so sore I could hardly move the next morning, and I was only 28 when that happened.
Look into fall protection gear for those framers working on the roof. Everyone hates wearing the stuff because it limits the range of movement when climbing around, but it sure beats the express to the ground or deck.
Dave
Let me add that all holes should be safety-ized.
Your comment about stepping back into one reminds me of an experience I'd rather forget from back when I was just starting out as a shingle layer.
I heaved the bundle of shingles over my head and shoulder to slam in down and break free across the ridge. As I did so, I stepped back to keep my balance and discovered the hard way that the carpenters had cut a hole for a roof vent but covered it over with tarpaper.
So there I was with one leg down thru a nine inch hole, One leg pointing at the ridge, and a bundle of shingles broke open across my shoulder. I'm not sure where my breathe was because I wasn't doing much breathing. I even suspect that this even may have had something to do with bringing on my hemerrhoid operation a couple of years later....
Excellence is its own reward!
Can you even imagine an experience like either of us had now? I am twice 28, and don't bounce, stretch or fold up as easily as I did back then.
Dave
I've been at safety classes by my insurance company where they emphasized this one because it tend to get over looked.
Cover it and nail the cover down. It seems that a common injury is for a cleanup person to see a chunk of plywood there and pick it up to move it, stepping right into the hole in the process.
My rule of thuimb come from Mr Murphy. If someone can get hurt there, they will get hurt there. Make it so they have to work hard to get themselves hurt.
Excellence is its own reward!
I had a sheet of plywood nailed over stairway hole on first floor 15 years ago. Homeowner decided to clean up, pulled nails, lifted one edge of plywood to his waist and tried shoving it to the wall. Landed on concrete, broke his back and had a brain concussion. Luckily, one of my guys heard him moaning. We were framing the roof in frigid weather.
Signs and lag bolts are now standard proceedure.
Clampman
Ouch!
pulled the nails - he did have to work hard to hurt himself - unbelievable!
Did he recover OK?.
Excellence is its own reward!
My boss tells me if we walk off a second story we are fired befoe we hit the ground :)
I think he's kidding View ImageGo Jayhawks..............Next Year and daaa. Blues View Image
Cag,
Tell your Boss that he's sued befor you hit the ground. ;-)
Joe Carola
Its not the distance that you fall that is the problem, its how you land!
While triming out condos about 6 years ago, framers were building right ahead of us, 18 year old backs up while carrying a window and down the basement he went, head first, died before the ambulance got there, was only 9 feet.
I fell 25 feet and only broke my back, the doc said I was lucky, now I know what he ment.
I think around where I lived at the time that you had to have a hole covered or guarded somehow. I do know that OSHA fined the framer.
Doug
I say leave it open. I install my stairs while the floor is being joist. I want to be able to use the stairs while framing is going on. Just put up a temp handrail. If your working in an area where your fall could be greater than 10' then you need some other form of fall arrest(heard of a harness). I always say familiarity breads carelessness. It's not the fall that hurts it's the sudden stop at the end. Be safe. Rude
Down here in Oz we have to put safety rails around the stairs whether they are fitted or not. we also have to put a safety rail at 1 metre high and a mid rail over all window openings (until windows are in) to the 1st floor). Safety is a huge issue here and is getting more stringent by the month with serious penaltys if you are consistently not conforming.
cheers Johnhttp://www.johnwalkerbuilders.com
OSHA rules are rails around all opennings and fall protection devices for anyone over six feet not ten..
Excellence is its own reward!
I'm not quite 6 foot.
Does that mean I'm exempt ?
; ) A good heart embiggins even the smallest person.
Quittin' Time
Look's like your sun is shining today!.
Excellence is its own reward!
Not really.
Just making an effort. A good heart embiggins even the smallest person.
Quittin' Time
I agree it has a lot to do with how you land. I know of an old man who was roofing his own shed roof and fell ten or twelve feet is all but landed on his head. Dead he is.
Of all my falls the worst hurts were on the shortest falls.
One really common injury I've seen in falls is the broken wrist. Guy automatically flails out trying to grab at something or to nbreak his fall and that is what gets snapped.
I had a good friend working on another job take a big fall and go right back to work. It was a sewer plant and they were sripping forms near the top of a containment cylinder with a funnel bottom. It had a 2x8x12 plank laid across the bottom to walk across the funnel. He stepped backwards off the staging at top and fell nearly 24' to land across the 2x8 on his back.
He says it turned the plank into slivers, a few of which ended up in his hide, and some skin was abraded from the concrete surface as he slid to the bottom drain, but he had no major injuries.
The plank slowed his fall as it deformed before breaking and his force was spread evenly over his whole back when he contacted the crete.
Luck? or Providence?.
Excellence is its own reward!
Piffin
Not that this has anything to do with work accidents but couldn't help but notice this line by you-
"Of all my falls the worst hurts were on the shortest falls.
One really common injury I've seen in falls is the broken wrist. Guy automatically flails out trying to grab at something or to nbreak his fall and that is what gets snapped."
Mountain biking one day and my front tire hit a rut, head over handrails and what do I do? put myhands out front , brake one wrist and sprained the other, should of lead with my head!
Doug
PS. Did something change when prospero did there thing they do, I dont get notices when someone responds to a post. I notice the Woodshed at the bottom and thats OK, just wondered what else is going on that I'm not aware of, oh well I'm sure I'll finger it out.
Edited 4/27/2003 7:41:08 PM ET by Doug@es
Edited 4/27/2003 7:45:18 PM ET by Doug@es
Have you changed firewall settings or cookies or anything on your PC? Jeff Buck I think it was had same comment this weekend. I still get notices though maybe not as many.
I remember once riding my bike through a pasture/hay field. I saw the wood chuck hole when I was only a foot or two in fronmt of my front tire. I heaved up on the handlebars and floated the front over it but when my rear wheel hit, I suddenly found myself doing a handstand on the handle bars at fourty miles an hour. I was certain that I was going right on over and that the bike would run over me but I managed to snap into the saddle again..
Excellence is its own reward!
Piffin
I moved to Texas and consequently a different server, but nothing else, could that have anything to do with it?
Doug
Hate to double up on a thread..but I thought it was just me. A lot less notices!!!
.................Iron Helix
PS......ditto on the rails and safety harness!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Yes, he pretty much recovered. But still does back exercises. He didn't have any damage to his spinal cord, fortunately. We were fishing Allagash lake last summer actually with several other old friends, and he spent a lot of time swimming (early june) so I guess he's not too worried about arthritis.
Not only did he have to pull the nails to hurt himself, he'd been up and down a ladder through that hole many many times before I plywooded it.
Scared the sh22 out of us all.
Clampman
I will admit to being one of those guys who is not as careful about safety as I should be. That said, it is my responsibility as the boss to foresee trouble spots such as open stairways and to cover them up or rail them as soon as possible. We even have some metal posts which can be quickly bolted to the floor and hold railings that can be easily removed if need be to move materials.
One rule that we tell all our new employees is that they need to personally assess any situation for safety. If they are not confident, they need to take the necessary time to correct the problem or bring it to the supervisor's attention. They are not to put productivity over their own safety. I think this is why we have a good safety record.
There's no code as far as I know. But the safest thing to do is when your putting the plywood down deck right over the stairwell and cut it out later. I always put 2x4's or 2x6's on edge the width of the stairwell to keep it nice and straight, around here 38" minimum stairewell width.
We then mark the openings and snap lines for the staiwell so it's easier to cut out later.
It's not worth someone getting hurt.
If you don't do as I said and cut out the opening, nail 2x4 rails around it and then tack plywood on top of the temporary rails.
If that kid fell down he would have landed on plywood on the second floor stairwell instead of all the way down into the basement.
Even balconys, you should always put railings up out of 2x4's.
Joe Carola