cut out a stud without cracking plaster?
Woodbutcher
| Posted in General Discussion on
Need some helpful tips here guys!
We’ve removed the plaster and lath from one side of a very old plaster wall. They want a recessed medicine cabinet installed. Naturally this is going to entail cutting out aproximately 30″ of one of the studs. (I’ve already tried selling them on a smaller cabinet, no dice) Do any of you have any advice for doing this without cracking the 100 year old plaster on the other side of the wall? I have no intention of getting anywhere near it with a sawzall, but what alternative do I have for seperating the stud from the lath in that area?
Remember… Really old, really crumbly, yet remarkably still pristine plaster here.
It’s crap like this that really makes me appreciate new construction over remodeling!
Replies
First, get it in writing that because they want what they want, you WILL NOT be responsible for the possible cracking of the plaster on the other wall. Then you can proceed - carefully.
If you are getting a stock medicine cabinet, it will usually be sized for a 2x4 wall (3 1/2" studs and 1/2" rock) and will still have a little clearance before it hits the other wall. The trim reveal keeps it even. The old plaster walls have at least 3 5/8" studs and about 3/4" or more lath and plaster combined. But the plaster keying may eat that space up so you may have to chip away, VERY CAREFULLY, some of that keying.
This difference will allow you to leave a little of the stud that holds the nails that holds the lath that holds the plaster on the opposing wall. There is nothing wrong with using a sawzall with a new SHARP blade and a LIGHT touch to take out a section of the stud. In fact, if you don't have to cut all the way through the stud the wall and plaster will vibrate a lot less. If you find that your first pass through the stud was a little light and the back of the cabinet touches you can do an extension on the trim to pull the box forward a bit.
If you are still shy about the potential cracking, another method would be to leave the stud whole and custom build the medicine cabinet around the stud. That would give you a 2-holer on the wall.<G>
Laser.
I recently got a Craftsman spiral saw. Used it a couple of weeks ago to enlarge the faucet hole in a friend's fiberglass shower unit, and she said, "Wow, it's like a laser". Indeed. I got it specifically to cut electrical box holes in the 100-year-old plaster in my house, and nary a crack yet. I bet it'd do the same on the 300-year-old plaster walls in my folks' home.
If I had to do the medicine cabinet installation, I'd be tempted to cut most of the way through the stud with the spiral saw first, then try taking the chunk out with a nice sharp chisel.
Someone else noted that the plaster keys on the other side may reduce the depth too much to fit the cabinet - I ran into this in my own bathroom, and had to carefully chisel the keys down. Risky, because even if it works, the plaster is no longer secured very well, and it'll probably crack eventually. I should have let the box stick out of the wall an extra half-inch and trimmed around it.
--
Michael
If you can make two cuts top and bottom, but not quite all the way through,look at the grain of the wood, if it is straight, you might be able to split most of it out with you hammer and chisel, you'll still have little lath nails to deal with, grinder may take care of them.
As per what Ralph said: how much depth have you got to play with for the cabinet? Leave a fraction of 2x4 if you can.
The only thing I can add to Ralph's suggestions is that a (Japanese) pullsaw will cause almost zero vibration, and will easily leave whatever fraction of wood you want. You have to get used to cutting on the pull stroke, but it's like a hot knife thru butter. I wouldn't be too crazy about using a Sawzall.
Regards,
Tim Ruttan
Been there (today) done that.
Used a new metal (fine) saw zall blade. Cut like butter....no problem at all...
Vibration? heh heh..that was before I cut the wall.
PS..My house is circa:1680 .no kidding!
Remember... Really old, really crumbly, yet remarkably still pristine plaster here. It's crap like this that really makes me appreciate new construction over remodeling! Then get a differerent job dude. Start appreciating what carps did over the years that weren't spoiled brats with tools that almost don't make ya work.
CRAP?????? Hey man.....in those days carps knew what it was all about......to say something like you did makes me think.....ahhhhhh forget it.
Get to work!!!!!!
Be old
Namaste
andy
In his first interview since the stroke, Ram Dass, 66, spoke with great difficulty about how his brush with death has changed his ideas about aging, and how the recent loss of two old friends, Timothy Leary and Allen Ginsberg, has convinced him that now, more than ever, is the time to ``Be Here Now.''
http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
OUCH, harsh...Never be afraid to try something new. Remember, amateurs built the ark, Professionals build the Titanic.
how'd PM42 get yer logo? You sell it to him? lol
In his first interview since the stroke, Ram Dass, 66, spoke with great difficulty about how his brush with death has changed his ideas about aging, and how the recent loss of two old friends, Timothy Leary and Allen Ginsberg, has convinced him that now, more than ever, is the time to ``Be Here Now.''
http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
Nope he stole it then he mutilated it lol
Never be afraid to try something new. Remember, amateurs built the ark, Professionals build the Titanic.
Andy,
Your next.
Be Orlo
Name a taste
andy
In his second interview since the smoke, Bam Rass, 16, spoke with litttle difficulty about how his toothbrush with death has defied his ideals about raging, and how the decent floss of twin gold friends, Tim Leary and Al Ginsberg, has convicted him that snow, more than fever, is the time to sing``Be A Hare Now.''
http://CLIFFORINNOVATIONS.COM
Router or rotary cutter with forty dollars worth of disposable blade.
Excellence is its own reward!
I've been waiting for a question like this to pop up.
What you do is use a Hole Saw. Unlike a SazAll, it doesn't cause vibration. Once you get it started - or at least when you near the bootm near the plaster - you may want to remove the pilot bit so it doesn't puncture the plaster.
Obviously you drill thru the 1 1/2" edge of the stud. Perhaps use a 4" dia. hole saw. It won't make a perfectly square cut but you don't need that. Or you could get a disk sander in there to level it off if you're perfinicky. With your 30" desired opening and a 4" hole saw, center the pilot bit at 2" and 28". When it bottoms out, gently pry off the plug with ChannelLocks and continue. You can use smaller dia. holes saws but the cut off ends will be curved more. Oh well.
You could also use a spade bit [1 1/2"] for this or two passes with 1"?
~Peter
try a 1/4" drill bit, drill a series of holes horizontaly,then angle the drill, then drill the face of the stud, that be my approach. Jim J
No first-hand experience with it but from what's been mentioned here before the Fein multitool with one of the cutting blades may be the ticket - precise control with little vibration.
don't believe the circular blade will reach half way.
E blade will reach half way thru, requiring two cuts (today's 2x4)but don't be surprised if you burn the blade, check the screws for tightness as you cut
there may be a triangular blade bobl Volo Non Voleo
re - E blade will reach half way thru, requiring two cuts (today's 2x4)but don't be surprised if you burn the blade, check the screws for tightness as you cut
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Thanks, Bob -
I thought it would offer aggressive cutting with precise control without the damaging vibration.
They use Feins in hospitals for removing plaster casts.
Someone at Breaktime mentioned slicing right through a large/wet tree root.
They seem to have expensive blades that doesn't come with the tool - one of them may do the job.
Again, no first-hand experience with the tool myself but it's on my list of tools needed for several tasks coming up.
still takes a little practice to be "precise"bobl Volo Non Voleo
re - still takes a little practice to be "precise"
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Maybe the medicine cabinet project is not a good place to practice using the Fein :-)
I once found myself in the same situation - slightly larger area. First thing I did was to stabilize the old plaster from behind using marine fiberglass epoxy - the kind you use to repair rust holes in sheet metal. I mixed up a batch and rolled it on with a thick napped roller, then embedded the whole thing with fiberglass mesh. When I ran out of epoxy resin, I stabilized outlying areas by gluing spare pieces of lathe vertically with Liquid Nails. I used a skillsaw on the old studs, set it to the depth I needed and made multiple passes to slice it up like a loaf of bread. The "slices" popped out with a chisel. The whole operation was a little messy, but the wall on the other side was fine.
Ha, looks like we are more or less on the same page.
But a 4" stud requires two passes, and I wouldn't be hammering a chisel to it.
The problem with the old plaster is that if the face has broken away from the keys, there isn't very much you can do to secure it from the back side. You just need to be as careful as you can. No hammering allowed.
Hi Mark,
Good to see you again, not that many familiar faces from the old days. I've done this on hundred year old plaster and haven't had too much cracking, as long as you keep the sawzall from catching and vibrating. The basic vibration of the saw, if that cracks the plaster then it would crack under normal household operations eventually, in my opinion.
But you could saw the stud in two places, allowing for a sill and header, then carefully pry the cut stud away from the lath so that you could slice off the little nails individually without the blade grabbing onto anything. Just don't use a lot of force to pry the cut stud.
I like the homeowner sign off thing for this.
Dog
Howdy backatchya Dog !
I'm afraid I've been guilty of just lurking for the past couple of months. Not very social of me, but I'm still putting the finishing touches on my new house And haven't had much time for netsurfing. (from groundbreaking to move in in just 5 1/2 months, not bad for weekends and evenings) As you said, it's good to see the occasional old timer in here.
ANYWAY.
Thank you all for your suggestions! Fortunately this was one of those opportunities where I was able to pause the work for a few days and consult my network of experts. I'll be hitting it either tommorrow or friday (wouldn't a big ol' plaster catastraphe be a perfect note to leave on a friday afternoon? "YO barkeep ! Gimmee the big beer!) I'll let you-all what I did, and more importantly how well it worked when I return.
Again... Thanks to all of you!
Mark, hope it went well. I've had good luck re-keying old plaster with const. adhesive. I break off the old keys and clean out the loose plaster. Next I squeeze the glue between the lath then "smooth" it out with a shim or scrap of wood. I've used this method many times to secure studs and trimmers to lath and plaster on new openings in old walls, but in that case I can also lay a 1x on either side for protection and clamp it all 'til the glue dries.
Just wanted you all to know that I'm not ignoring you and give you an update on what happened with the plaster wall.
There were some big upheavals in our company right after I posted the plaster wall querstion and I ended up not going back to that job. My buddy got it dumped in his lap so I printed off this thread and gave it to him. Here is what he told me he did;
He used a liberal amount of yellow glue and "painted" it on the lath and plaster on the backside the day before the actual cut. He screwed a 2x4 laterally across the studs above and below the area of the cut, He propped a sheet of plywood against the plaster on the other side of the wall to stabilise it. Then he used his sawzall with a fine metal blade to make the actual cut. Now here is the part I would not have attempted, but he then gently rocked the cut section of 2x4 off of the lath nails (Yikes!) once it was removed he clipped the nails flush with his side cutters. According to him it worked quite well without any damage to the remaining plaster.
Once again, thank you all for the advice!
been there, done that. in our last house i cut a 5' wide by 6'8" tall hole in a load bearing wall from the bedroom side and only had a couple hairline cracks in the lath & textured plaster wall and crown molding on the living room wall. installed the king and jack studs and 2x10 header, all from the back side. i have pictures somewhere.
i used an extra-long bosch "progressor" blade in my 1587 jigsaw- much smoother than a sawzall to cut the studs. someone mentioned using a shark saw or other type of japanese pull saw. that would work well, too. the real trick is screwing a couple lengths of 1x or 2x bracing across the studs (attaching the ends to studs at the sides of your opening that aren't going to be cut out) to stabilize them before you start sawing. the first cut isn't bad, but they will really wobble once one end is cut through if they're not braced.
once the studs were cut through, i removed the braces then just gently rocked the studs back and forth until i'd pried them off the lath nails. oh yeah- i almost forgot. before i did this step, i carefully screwed a vertical brace to the back of the lath along both sides (an inch or two away) of each stud to stabilize the l&p. can't remember if i screwed to every piece of lath, or every other? clipped the tiny nails off with some nippers. you will have to be really gentle snapping off the excess plaster that oozed through the back of the lath. i think i used a dull chisel and lightly tapped it with a hammer to chip off the plaster.
it was a lot of effort, but it all worked like a charm!
good luck!
m
I've had to do this twice in the last couple of months, the second time with a pristine plaster wall decorated with a hand-painted 12" border along the ceiling on the adjoining wall. The first thing I did was to have the HO consent to the work with the written approval that if the plaster and border were ruined, I wouldn't be held accountable.
Then I layed out the the cut lines on the side to be cut. After enveloping the area in plastic with a vac whining away, I took out a cheap Skill saw with a new blade and plunge cut the full depth of the saw into the studs, then reset the depth to about 3/4" and cut through the remainder of the cut lines on the plaster. Using the circular saw gave me flat cut studs, which I needed for the new sill and header. (The added 1.5" opening on top and bottom were filled in with drywall, but are hidden anyway by molding.)
Once the studs were partially cut and plaster removed, I used a combination of sawzall and open ended hacksaw to cut through the nails holding the lathing in place. Careful is key, and using a small prybar to gain some space between the stud and lathing is helpful. Once the nails are cut, I used the sawzall to finish the stud cuts. With the lath disconnected from the stud, vibration wasn't a problem.
If I were really worried about the plaster breaking up during this process, I would take a piece of 3/4" plywood and screw it to the plaster wall behind where your cabinet is to be inset, to stabilize the plaster. If you have to remove the plaster keys, I don't think I would leave them in that condition, but rather would use something to bond them together again, like maybe a plaster coat inside the cavity before installing the cabinet. I haven't done either of these techniques before, just ideas/ options.
Good Luck.
Take a skillsaw and make a series of horizontal cuts the length of the stud to be removed. Break the pieces off with pliers, and roughly clean up the face with a chisel so you can now make a new series of cuts the full depth of the stud, and break them away. If the medicine cabinet has enough overhang to allow you to overcut the stud 1 1/2" , you can cut it all with the skill saw, if not, make the end cuts by hand.
I've heard it mentioned here that you can secure the plaster keys with yellow glue, but I have never tried it. It might not be a bad idea, if you have that kinda time.
In any case, I don't see this taking much longer than it took me to write this.
> I've heard it mentioned here that you can secure the plaster keys with yellow glue, but I have never tried it. It might not be a bad idea, if you have that kinda time.
I've done that, it works fine and takes up no extra space in the wall cavity. Pull out any broken pieces of plaster keys, carefully break away big ones if you need the room, then shop vac the area. Squirt in the glue, and let it sit overnight.
The next day, cross cut the stud top and bottom as deep as you can with a circular saw. Then use the same saw to cut a vertical kerf down the middle of the stud. Stick two very thick putty knives or thin flat bars in this kerf, and split the sides off. Pull them in opposite directions so there's no net force applied to the remaining part of the stud. Keep going at it, making kerfs and breaking out wood, until it's gone. Use big channel locks to hold the big part of the wood to be demoed while you break away small parts of it. Then use diagonal cutters to clip off the lath nails.
It's a slow, careful task, but it can be done.
-- J.S.
Mark. cut a piece of scrap plywood for a guide. It should be cut the dimension you need less the blade to guide distance. On one of my saws the distance is 1 1/2" and the wide side about 4". Screw the plywood thru the plaster into the lath and stud. Cut plaster out with circular saw and old blade, wear dust mask.Remove plaster and scrap plywood. Cut blocking in between studs and fasten. Use sawzall with metal cutting blade to finish up. The blocking prevents the plaster from chattering while sawing.I use the scrap template because I can't see the chalklines thru the plaster dust.
Mike
This is generally done by first protecting the integrity of the plaster keys. To do this use a heavy muslin cloth and plaster of paris (pop). Fill in about half of the key area with pop. Embed the muslin and then finish finish fill and leveling the keys. Above and below the stud you are going to cut, drill about a 3/4 inch hole about 6 inches above the cuts. Drilling up and down at an angle is fine. Run the muslin through the hole and embed it in the keys with the pop. As the pop dries, it should pull the wall tight against the stud. This is the same way dropping ceilings are rekeyed through an over story floor. Once this is done, cutting the stud without being reckless should result in protecting the back side plaster. Good luck.
Don