Hello All,
I am seriously considering building my own home. Not just being my own contractor, but doing 75% of the work myself. Here is a little background on myself: I have been doing construction work since I was old enough to swing a hammer. There are very few aspects to building a house that I haven’t done and I studied architecture at school.
I still could use any tips you experienced builders could give me. I am going to sub out the well & septic, rough plumbing and foundation. Those are the areas that I am still unsure of myself and don’t want to compromise anything because fo that.
That being said I still have one huge problem that will hold us this dream. I cannot affard 2 mortgages while construction is going on. We will most likely have to sell our current house before our new home is completed. This leaves my family with no palce to live during construction. I thought about renting a RV or travel trailer, but have only found short term rentals. I also considered a mobile home, but again I cannot find anyplace to rent or lease them. Does anyone have any suggestions?
I appreciate any tips, advice or suggestions you could give me.
Rick
Replies
If you have the space, what about buying a used "mobil" home, and then selling it when you are done? I've noticed that there are lots of used ones for sale (repossessions I think).
You could also rent it out after you are finished with it, provided you have enough space. One warning though (I don't know if you have picked out the land) is about zoning regulations. Make sure you will be allowed to do whatever you decide to try. You don't want to be kicked out 1 month after starting because the city won't allow a mobil home.
I guess I should have explained that a little better. We are looking in rural areas. I found a 5 acre lot for a really good price. It is zoned E-1 and does allow for temporary housing on site during construction. Afterwards you are allowed only 1 residence.
Rick, welcome to BT and congratulations on already having filled in your profile.
You sound better prepared than I was when I started our place here. We made the mistake of renting a house for the duration. If you're living on site, it's likely that you'll do more work in any given period. As you're learning, financing the construction is sticky. We moved halfway across the country to an area we were unfamiliar with, making the material acquisition more difficult.
We found a sympathetic seller, who'd had difficulty selling the land we bought. We covered his sale expenses, about 3% of the total, and he held a balloon note for the remainder. As we were spending all our cash improving the unimproved property, he had little risk. This allowed us considerably more leeway than paying cash for the land. Our trade-off was a slightly higher sale price. Well worth it to us. We still ran out of money, but you have to expect that.
At any given time here, I'm pretty sure I could find a free mobile home available. Usually from somebody who's just finished their house, somebody who bought land and considered the existing mh a liability, or even a dealer who took one in on "trade" when selling a new one. Ain't gonna be attractive, but the roof probably won't leak. Contributes to your motivation to get the house finished and get that ugly thing off your property.
I also had thoughts of subbing out the parts I wasn't familiar with. Didn't work out very well. As an owner-builder, you're always at the bottom of the list. This is not to suggest that you not build it yourself, just that it'll likely be the most stressful thing your family's endured. And also potentially the most rewarding. I even ended up with a few new skills that I've found a ready market for. Unfortunately, I've also seen a few marriages that didn't survive the experience.
Good luck.
PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
>I also had thoughts of subbing out the parts I wasn't familiar with. Didn't work out very well. As an owner-builder, you're always at the bottom of the list.What's worked for me is to make really good friends with one contractor, almost any trade. Through them you can get good referrals for subs who'll do the work, not be/c you're special, but be/c they like the contractor you know. Also helps to make it clear you can accommodate their schedule and thus give them some flexibility, and that you can meet their payment terms...you'll cut the check the instant they present the invoice.
Then buying a used mobile home is the way to go.
I invented Coke with Lime.
My only concern with buying a used mobile home is trying to sell it. I've heard quite a few stories about people who had a hard time selling it when through.
How long has it taken most of you to contruct your homes? In most areas is there a certain point where you can take occupation of the residence? Can you take occupancy before: interior doors are up, painting, trim work, flooring, etc??
Just make sure you buy it cheap enough you can get out easily.
Use it on your deer lease? Lake cabin?
Find a lot and turn it into a rental?
Storage building?
Office or shop?
Lot's of possibilities.
I invented Coke with Lime.
You're right about used MH being hard to sell. The reason is that nobody wants to make a loan on one, and anyone can walk into a dealer and buy a brand new one with virtually no money down. Everybody buys new.
Since you're relatively rural, what about building a 2 car detached garage or work shop first, maybe 80% complete, and include a toilet flange and shower/sink drain so that you can occupy that building while you're under construction? You could postpone exterior finish, brick, hardi siding, whatever, until you do the house, and wrap it all up to match. I built a very nice 24 x 32 shop building on a slab, with a roll up door and attic trusses with a solid stringer stairway (could be a "sleeping loft") for about $12,000 here in Georgia. No climate control, but a heat/cool window unit would make it work.
Kill two birds.
Greg
How long has it taken most of you to contruct your homes? In most areas is there a certain point where you can take occupation of the residence? Can you take occupancy before: interior doors are up, painting, trim work, flooring, etc??
Rick, it's an ambitious undertaking.
Your local inspector can tell you what you'll legally need to have to get the CoO (certificate of occupancy), he can also tell you what he'll want you to have before he issues it. Often times "need" and "want" ar somewhat different, usually he'll wnat more than is legally required.
I'm in CT, my inspector wanted drywall (no exposed insulation and a firewall), coverplates on all electrical boxes, code-compliant stairs and railings in place, one working bathroom (defined as working toilet/sink and electrical), and a working kitchen (plumbing/electric) with a sanitary floor (no plywood).
Afte I cleared the land, I hired an excavator to dig the foundation hole and to do the septic. I subbed out the foundation. I subbed out the drywall. I subbed out the chimneys and fireplaces.
Everything else I did myself. All the framing, siding, roofing, electrical, plumbing, radiant floor heat, insulation, etc. Built all my own cabinets. Milled most of and installed all the trim. Not clamshell, but somewhat detailed built-up trim, varying from 3- to 9-piece depending on the room. Painted. Yadda, yadda, yadda.
It's a LOT of work.
It will consume you.
Unless you and your family acknowledge up front that this project will initially eat up 100% of your free time (as well as a good portion of your un-free time) then you'd best revise your expectations. Perspective? We rented a beachhouse on the CT shoreline while we built. I went swimming in the ocean with the kids twice while we lived there. Still, we had a GREAT time building. the kids had the monster playsite of al time. The missus knew that she was getting exactly what she wanted in a house, down to the nook and cranny. Custom this, custom that, customized to how we live, cook, eat, customized down to how we use the toilet.
I built solo. My brother came down two weekends when I was framing, but he was pretty much useless. Actually, that's too cruel, he was a good helper but just couldn't be let loose to do anything solo. Good as a cutman on the chopsaw, good to hold the other end of the board, sorta good for helping to raise the occasional wall, but he could not work unsupervised.
Started framing (setting the main beam and lally columns) on July 4th. Independence Day. Took me almost 5 weeks of 100% arse-busting hard work to frame the house, this was also while working a full-time job. The house is a 2-story colonial, about 1600 sqft on each of the first and second floors with a set of walk-up stairs into another 850 sqft in the attic. 3200 sqft on the first two floor, about 4100 sqft total.
With roofing (40-year architectural shingles), siding (cedar clap), exterior windows/doors (Marvin double-hungs), exterior trim and paint, it took me until sometime in mid-September to get the shell 100% done.
Spent some time then doing exterior sitework, pushing around dirt, some rough grading, and tweaking my very rough 900' long driveway for winter use.
October/November was getting the electrical, plumbing, insulation and radiant heat installed, as well as the oil tank boiler, and water tank.
Subbed out the drywall. Got delayed a bit, as I wanted to do blueboard and skimcoat plaster but couldn't hold on to a plaster crew. Eventually got a drywall crew hired, but even after getting put off by them a few times they finally came and did their thing. Rock was done in February.
When they were hanging and taping the rock, that was my mental vacation. Watching a bunch of French-Canadiens running around my house on stilts was a nice break for me. I was still working on-site, making the finished stairway for the foyer, etc, as well as planning other details, but it was slow-motion time for me.
Even with the delays from sheetrocking, it would have been reckless of me to try to sheetrock this place. I used 5/8ths inch board, it would have taken me 6 months and it would have killed me, mentally and physically sheetrock is one thing that I just don't have the desire to do. Ever.
March/April/May was interior work. Primed all the walls/ceilings and painted the ceilings. Finish electrical and finish plumbing. Tiling the upstairs laundry and getting that room done, tiling one of the full bathrooms upstairs and getting that bathroom done, as well as a half-bath downstairs. Hung the interior doors.
Got the kitchen up and running. Nothing fancy, just the finish electrical, and the temporary, but technically finish plumbing, and some very basic shelving units.
Ended up doing all the flooring in the house. Around 3000 sqft of brazilian cherry flooring as well as some slate in the foyer.
Got the Certificate of Occupancy in June.
After the CoO we did the interior finish trim, each room has some fairly nice to very nice wainscotting and crown. Finish cabinetry, a lot of built-ins, outside bluestone patios, lawns, fences, stonewalls...yadda, yadda, yadda.
It's a lot of work.
As Junkhound wrote, it'll either kill your marriage or make it stronger.
My marriage is still going strong.
Mongo,
Your account is nearly identical to mine except ours is a full scribed log house. We installed the floor joists in '99, and expect to occupy in October this year.
You istalled Brazillian cherry, as are we.
How did you finish it? I had been considering shellack, as we are originally from Hawaii, and always remove shoes upon entering the house.
Can't imagine you did the wiring that fast. It took me months, and now a couple circuits don't want to energize. lguess I'll hire a REAL electrician to fix my screwups.
Could you post pictures of your flooring?
Thanks
Stef
Edited 6/17/2005 12:26 pm ET by stef
Stef,
Finally I have an excuse to use my new digital camera!
I'll try to come back and post a pic tonight.
The rough wiring actually went pretty quick. Quiick for me at least.
If I recall, a day to hang boxes and drill out the first floor, another day to do the second floor.
It did then take a few days to pull the wires and homerun then to the panel, probably three or four.
I was pretty generous with the circuits, my 40-breaker panel is essentially filled, when I put in a swimming pool I had to pop in a subpanel.
We're shoelesss people as well. Don't have a mudroom, so shoes come off at the door to keep the grit down. With all the hardwood the central vac is a savior.
I don't know the exact finish on the flooring. Can't recall. It is a film finish, though. It has held up well. We put it in the kitchen as well. Almost did cork in the kitchen, but decided to carry the cherry throughout the house. The cherry looks fabulous, but in the kitchen the dark wood shows every smear and smudge. Plus side, it forces us to keep the floor clean. Down side, it drives my wife nuts.<g>
Here's a pic. Taken just five minutes ago...
Mongo,
Thanks. It is lovely.
I like the soft sheen you got.
Still thinking about what to use.
I'm afraid it took me longer than that for wiring. Maybe because I had to snake it around logs, through TJIs, and through steel studs. Or maybe I'm too old for this stuff.
Stef
Rick.
So many factors to this adventure.
First off, how many kids do you have? How much time can you spend on this hobby?
If at all possible, I would find a way to build a little something (even if it's a garage as Greg suggested) and then expand from there. With an archy background, you should be able to cleverly design something small that can be expanded without major disruption.
I've been doing a major remodel on my house for almost two years. When you say 75% of the work, how big is the house? Have you computed how many man hours it takes to build and house and how much 75% of that is? This thing could easily take you years (like me). I have three kids, so I put in about 12-15 hours per week on the house. Doesn't make for much work getting done, but it is moving forward. I also have lots of custom built stuff, because I'm building it. So that adds considerably to the time involved.
Do you have inspections where you are looking? Inspectors don't care about trim, paint or finish flooring (but you have to be careful with stairs here - often finished flooring is required to get the rise the same on all steps). Inspectors care about fire code, and working kitchen and bathroom, and heat in all living space. If you "remodel" like me, you get away with a lot more. I'm living in a house with a million violations that would prevent a Certificate of occupancy, but I'm already here, so there is no complaining.
Bringing in a MH for temp residence would be my last choice. I'd rather live in a tent or shanty hut and kill myself on the house.
MERC.
Build a barn or separate structure with tiny living quarters to live in on site while you work on the house?
You can also get one close loan, so the payments don't start 'til construction is over.
Let the beauty of what you love be what you do. ~ Rumi
christy tell me more about the close loan im interested in that also..thanks
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You can get more info here. Here's a page where we do a bunch of them. I can get the phone if you want.
http://www.ubuildit.com/services/mandl/index.php
Let the beauty of what you love be what you do. ~ Rumi
Thanks Christy.
Im planning on doing something simular..getting a house built then sell the one Im in now to pay off the loan or a good portion of it.
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Lots of good info here guys, THANKS!!
I was planning on building a 30x60 shop on the property before the house just to hold all of our things. Our current house is overcrowded and we are going to move some of it out to make it look bigger. Oh yeah...my garage is a mess and will never be clean with all the stuff I have in there. I guess I could plumb in a toilet and drain to make it livable for a few months.
I plan on working nights after work, and weekends. I am going to save my vacation time so I should have about 6 weeks or so of time to take off. Living on the property would help get some more work done. I do have 4 children so I will have to devise a way to keep them occupied while I am working. I am planning on this taking about 9 months from start to occupancy.
We heard about the one-time closing mortgages, but haven't researched them yet. I as under the assumption that there were still payments. If there were no payments or minimal payments with a one-time close mortgage then that would be the way to go. Disrupting the family is going to be the hardest part of all this.
They are one-close, one-application loans. They're called "construction to perm". How it works is that you get draws along the way at the major stages of construction and payments start after the 'close' of the loan, which is at cert. You've got an 'interest reserve' so that you don't have payments until the home is done.
It's important that you estimate the costs well (with a normal contingency) so you don't overspend the loan. loan to value has to be in line.
You can also get constr-to-perm loans with an 'interest only' payment during construction.
at a minimum (banks differ on requirements) you will need the following to start the loan if you have a builder: final plans and specs, contract for the lot or settlement statement, property profile, line item breakdown on cost, construction contract, copy of builder's license, builder's application.
if you aren't using a builder at all, you can still get the loan. depending on which state you are in, you can even get them as an owner-builder.
Let the beauty of what you love be what you do. ~ Rumi
An 1,800 sq ft shop ought to be big enough for temp living, even with four kids. They will appreciate the 2 1/2 baths after having only 1 bath for a few months. Make the wiring for shop use.
As for your "stuff" you might want to go though it all and either have a yard sale or put it in storage for the time being.
As I have been told here you wouldn't be the first one to live in a building built for a different use while building your dream house.
DaneI will always be a beginner as I am always learning.
I bought a used mobile home for 5000 , live in it for two years and sold it for $1 It was still a hell lot cheaper than paying rent for two years. and I could keep a eye on my tools.
How old are you?
I did this when I was thirty and was completely exhausted after nine months. No way could I do it now.
I think your schedule is way over-optimistic. I moved in after nine months with painted walls, a functional kitchen and bath, no floors, no trim, no doors, no exterior finish, 1000 sq ft. I also had two large work parties, one to frame the house, one to hang sheetrock. Doing these jobs by myself would have added two months time.
This can be done and can be a great experience but be prepared for it to take a lot longer than you think.
I have to agree about the schedule, 9 months is unrealistic unless you have a TON of help. My bro-in-law is finishing up his house after 1 1/2 years of full time contstruction. He did do everything himself except well, septic, insulation and drywall. He had a decent amount of help off and on plus his retired union elect father full time and he still overshot his schedule by quite a bit. I would say you are asking for trouble if you aren't more realistic with your schedule, unless you have a small army to help you out. Not trying to discourage, just help you learn from someone else's experience. It is an honorable thing to build your own home, just allow yourself double what you are thinking and you may live through it!
Rick, ours took a year and a half, nights and weekends. Best of luck on your new home.Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
Quittin' Time
If you think it will take nine months to finish the major portions be prepared to double that time involved. This kind of project takes a toll on your family responsibilities also.
You will not have much leverage on getting subcontractors to do your job before their regular contractor jobs. This can add some serious time to your schedule.
We spent over 30k in rent for an apartment while we were between houses. I have alot of work to do before my house would be considered finished. Working nights and weekends never gets all you want to get done in the time you think it takes to do it.
Some nights you will be too tired to work or a family function will take precedence over home building. If you are planning on this because you like to build things thats OK. If you are planning on saving a huge amount of money, forget about it.
We're FINALLY through permitting. Started in November last year. Had set-backs with Oak tree issues, drainage issues someother things like a newborn. All that stuff, finall 7 months later we were approved today to start.
We were/are shooting to start the foundation first of July.
Found out today that the local truss manufacturers aren't able to help a home-owner contractor. htey are only doing work for established accounts. Work here is non-stop, so they haven't the manpower or resources to take on lil ol me.
My friend is doing his home right now too (he started b4 I did) he waited 13 weeks for his trusses!!!!!!
This previous quote comes to mind;
" As an owner-builder, you're always at the bottom of the list."
Whaddya say Boss, you want to build em, and ship em down? Probably be cheaper too.-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Have you seen my baseball?"
Where are you at? We've got truss guys everywhere. I know you're not a client, but I can try to hook you up.
-c
Let the beauty of what you love be what you do. ~ Rumi
Tampa,
and ANY help/resource would be great!!-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Have you seen my baseball?"
Lemme work on it.
get back at ya.
-c
Let the beauty of what you love be what you do. ~ Rumi
Hey!
My guy down there says you can skate right in at Cox Lumber's Truss Manufacturing Plant. Drop off your plans and bids will be ready in under a week. Guy's name is Fred (or anyone will do). One of the big Truss co's in tampa is about to IPO, so they aren't taking new clients, which is putting stress on the truss marketing in Tampa right now.
It's on US 41 and Madison. Turn e on madison and go in 1/2 mi. Where you are going looks like a regular lumber company, but it is their Truss Manuf Plant. Tell them Alfredo Vega sent you.
Shouldn't even have to set up an new account and all that junk.
Cox Lumber
Address:
5135 Madison Ave, Tampa, FL 33619
Phone:
(813) 248-6731
If you have any trouble, let me know and my guy can hand walk you down or hook you up with another company.
Thanks,
Christi
Let the beauty of what you love be what you do. ~ Rumi
You get today's pat on the back, Christi.
Thanks! I'll let you know how it turns out-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Have you seen my baseball?"
They took me in. The only Fred they knew was a driver. Either case, Jose was the office dude helpin me out. Very friendly people there, hopefully they'll have a decent take-off and time table.
Thanks again, i'll keep you posted!-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Have you seen my baseball?"
tampa, after three hurricane in one year, your screwed.
And its already startin' again today!
We might never get this addition done.
I told Bosshog, if he hooks me up, i'll take him out fishing in one of our "little" storms
Sorry, I did not intend to derail this thread. My apologies
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Have you seen my baseball?"
Edited 6/10/2005 8:56 am ET by sailfish
I cannot find anyplace to rent or lease them. Does anyone have any suggestions?
Well, MH are a unique situation. The note for one is really a "car" note, not a mortgage. So, you don't "see" a lot of lease/rental overall.
Now, that does not mean you can't find a decent repo, put it on your lot, and then put the MH up for sale when you are done. Sure, that's a headache, but it does let you live on your job site.
Here's a q that affects temp site conditions. Say the builder has a motor home and is equipped for travel. The site has septic. What's required to have the motor home be able to use that septic system?Another Q related to a suggestion made here. If you build a barn and use if for the temp living, it's gotta have water and waste. If the barn is, say, 50-100' from the house location, how does that affect using the existing septic if the tank/drain field is on the far side of the house site (entire site has a 1' in 25' slope down toward the septic)?
If you build a barn and use if for the temp living
May depend upon the zoning--I had to do one with all "bath" facilities called out on the plans as "cabana" facilities (AHJ would permit a bath associated with a pool, but not one for "hands" --HOA wanted "country" living not "farm" living). The "cabana baths" had to be o nthe ground level, but hte bonus/caterer's rooms were in the second floor of the barn.
The "answer" around here, is you lay out the septic just like for the house (and include any permanent outbuilding facilities). Then, there's a "leg" to either the "future" outbuildings or the "job trailer."
Seems like I remember there's an RV-to-PVC adapter of some sort available. Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
I've known a few families that have gone this route. Not the easiest, but most seem to feel it was worth it at the end. Conventional wisdom in this situation seems to be to buy a very used mobile home; i.e., 1970's-vintage (before the building standards came into being, and thus cheap), and consider it a throw-away. That'll give you good motivation to finish the real house ASAP. ;)
I've done the owner/builder thing and it is a very rewarding experience. I subed out 70% of the job though. Took 9 months from the start of the dig to move in. Worked 16 hour days between that and my regular job. House was 100% complete when we moved in.
The neighborhood in which we live has several owner/builders since that was "permitted" by the developer. Some of us did it pretty much at the same time since the land became available all at the same time, and finished lots around here, under those terms, are very difficult to find around here. By finished lot I mean a street out front and a community water system only. A few of my neighbors did it as you are proposing (minus the temp facilities, as that was not permitted). One of em recently sold their house, but he and to take a week or 2 off of work before putting the house up for sale - to finish the house - that was after 4 years.
I'd say a realistic schedule for what you are proposing is 2 years from the start of the dig to move-in. That would be a house without the interior finishes in it. Another year to finish it up. That's being optimistic.
The thing you need to realize about doing stuff yourself is that homebuilding is a lot of work - as in hours of labor. That may sound pretty self evident, but let me give an interior paint job as an example - maybe 3000 sq ft house. I picked paint because it seems like most every homeowner thinks he can paint just as good as the next guy. Let's say it will take a paint crew of 6 guys a total of a 5 day week to paint the interior of the house. So that would be 6 x 40 = 240 hrs. And oh, they know exactly what they are doing and have all the right equipment, so they can do it twice as fast as you can, so 240 x 2 = 480 hrs. OK, so let's say you have 8 hrs a day to work on it. If you work 7 days a week, the interior paint job on a ~3000 sq ft house might take you 2 months.
That same house might take you 4 months to frame - and you would still need help. I've had 5 houses framed since the beginning of the year, so I can give a pretty good rough estimate of what man hours are required.
Sometimes it is wise to think in terms of the fact that there are only so many hours in a week, and it's best to do what you can make the most money per hour and just hire a painter for $15 an hour who can do it faster than you... If I were you, I'd plan on working really hard at just getting your finances in order prior to embarking on this journey, and then think in terms of not only saving money on construction costs, but also how you can get the house built in a reasonable period of time. Otherwise it could easily be a 5 year process... starting from the land procurement phase and ending in a 100% finished home.
One other thing concerning construction (or construction to perm loans). Remember that your payments are kind of on a sliding scale - let's say that during the first 2 months you have only borrowed money to do the rough grading and the foundation. That would mean that your payments would be small for those first few months. Once you frame the house, your payments might double - framing material is expensive... You get the idea. Since you have a higher than mortgage interest rate, time to finish is money - especially in the later phases of the project.
Also, with construction to perm loans, generally, they put some kind of a time limit on the construction portion of it - maybe a year, but you may likely be able to negotiate this with your bank. Not only will the bank make progress inspections to release money to you, but they will do a final inspection before they let you convert from the construction loan (higher rate) to the perm loan, which will be more along the order of the going mortgage rate at the time of conversion.
Also, banks often like you to have the land paid off prior to beginning the process so it can be used as collateral against your building loan.
All good info, depends on the bank.
The ones we get from Indymac bank are no payments until the loan closes at the finish of the house.
the draws match your hard specs, so it's important to estimate right to not get ahead of the draw.
Let the beauty of what you love be what you do. ~ Rumi
so it's important to estimate right to not get ahead of the draw
Ah, the essential thing <g>. Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
Hello Rick,
I'm an owner-builder in a similar situation to what you are planning. Moved from a 4500 sq ft house to a 1200 sq ft log cabin on the property I'm building on [5 kids+mom and dad]. Well, we've been here for 3 years and not looking forward to another winter in the cabin. Unless the house you are building is very small or you have a lot of capable helpers at your disposal, I'd recommend sticking to the smaller jobs, decks, flooring, interior trim, painting. We've sub'd the footing, foundation, framing, basement slab; and we're planning to sub the roof, insulation, brick, exterior siding/trim, concrete slabs, hvac. I'll take a shot at plumbing/electric (with professional help), cabinets, interior paint and trim. The way I figured it, if I framed the house I would have spent all my vacation (7 weeks) and got about half done. So I'm gling to focus on the post dry-in things that are better suited to my skills and available time.
The bank took a bit of convincing to give me a construction-perm loan. I had to send a letter stating my past building experience .... One other thing, a good friend is an Executive VP at the bank, so one word from him was all I really needed.
Get rid of all your junk, sell it, burn it, whatever, just keep the stuff you really need. If you don't have good storage, you tools will get real rusty. I'd go for the "living in the future shop" idea or build a barn and live in the "loft". Doesn't have to be real pretty, but some ability to maintain privacy will go a long way.
Roger <><
Rick:
We're basically adding a house to our existing house: two full stories, finished basement, plus my dream shop in the garage. I'm doing everything myself and with borrowed help- I mean everything, including underpinning and foundation work. Before this, the only concrete I'd used was to set a few posts for a deck, but my brother put me on to ICFs and the rest is history. See my other thread about how great the ICF portion of the job worked out.
It's the 1st full week of June, the foundations and basement are done except for the slab, and the 1st floor is framed, including interior partitions. So far I've had only a week's holidays to work on this, with my father-in-law's gracious help during that week, plus a spare pair of hands at least one day every weekend (I have lots of friends who owe me labour exchange). I've lost 20 pounds and dislocated a finger, but otherwise I'm intact. We're ahead of schedule and on budget, even with people here convincing me to spend more to do things better.
That puts us about six weeks ahead of the neighbours across the street who did a very similar addition last year, only they acted as their own GC and hired out everything. Even though they had relatives in the 'biz to help them find decent subs, their access to those subcontractors was far from perfect. People would take the job and not show up for weeks. Some just plain disappeared, never to be heard from again. In this market, the owner/builder gets the short end of the stick because- face it- you're good for ONE JOB ONLY, whereas a developer or professional GC can be counted on as a meal ticket for some of these guys. And the construction market in our area is BUSY, big time. That's why I chose to tackle the foundation work, even though the most concrete I'd used prior to tackling this was a few bags to set some posts for a deck. I couldn't have a hole beside my house and have to wait a month for a sub to show up. It was bad enough having to wait a week and a half for a pre-backfill inspection, worrying about my son falling in there!
This has been hard work but a great experience so far- but we have no illusions about being done in nine months!
If things go well, the plan is to have the addition and garage properly dried in by the time the snow flies, so I can work in comfort over the winter. If they don't go well, I won't have the siding in place and the addition will need to over-winter wearing Typar. All the interior work, including wiring and plumbing, we'll be doing a room at a time, as labour and money permit. We fully expect this to take years to complete- but this IS the work of a lifetime: I never expect to do this again. The whole thing has been designed to permit us to live in our existing house without significant disruption while this is going on, and so far the plan has worked very well. Mind you, I suffered over that plan for nearly a year before we started to make sure of that as best I could.
One thing though: with four kids, unless a couple of them are old enough to help out, you may want to reconsider- unless your wife is SuperWoman. The mess of construction, combined with the stress of being a reno widow, are wearing quite heavily on my wife. She's pregant, due in August, and we have a boy who's turning three in September. And she's been through this before, through years of reno on the existing house. Give your family situation due consideration before you relocate yourself to a trailer and marry yourself to this project!
Sheesh, sounds like you and I were chopped off the same log. I dug an ICF basement under the house, then tore off the roof and put on a second story. I've done almost everything myself. My wife is "renovation widow" too. Three kids, 5, 2 , 4months. We'll be done in 2012, give or take a decade.
MERC.
...and your kids'll be smarter for the experience!
We're just glad you survived your dig-out. Mine wasn't nearly as hairy as yours looked, even with the underpinning I had to do.
Best of luck with yours-
Rick,
I agree that your timeframe is a little optimistic.
I took 14 months off of work to build ours,(to the point of being livable) and did most everything, including most of dirt work and foundation. ( subbed the well, plumbing, septic, and heating).
Hey, i was a little optimistic in my projections also. Figured it could be liveable in 7 months. So we included 7 months of take home pay in our construction loan.
We lived cheaply so that money stretched a little further. (There is no social life or anything while building).
We were under budget on some things, but we were way over on plumbing, and we added some other stuff. Ultimately we pretty much cleaned out my business checking account, and our savings accounts. Towards the end we sold the house we were living in, with the agreement that we could rent until our new place was ready. (about 2 months)
For our situation it was worth it. But i would not do the dirt work again, and I would think twice before I did the foundation work again.
About 2 years after we moved in DW hired me to trim it. Landscaping? Ha Ha Ha!!! There is still a rut in the front yard where the concrete truck sank while pouring the footings. Doors got hung a few weeks after moving in. Doors on the base cabinets became a priority when the youngest child began to crawl and was able to pull stuff out of the cabinets. Still have about a 7 page list of what needs to be done.
Bowz
There was great story in Great Moments in Home Building column (or what it is called) a couple of years ago.Seems that a tile setter had not finished his own bathroom after some time.He works a couple of weeks out of town and comes home and the bathroom is finished and the wife won't say anything.Later he goes to one of supply houses and and the counter is a copy of the check made out to a competitor that the wife paid to get the bathroom finished.
Rick,
ATTA boy!
bravo, now do it!
Solve your problems easily enough with a used moble home or something like that, think outside of the box, consider using either ICF's or SIP 's and have the house weather tight much, much, faster than otherwise.. costs will be either 2 or 5% higher or slightly lower.. (once everything is done)
Your energy savings are a bonus using either method.
Consider buying wood from a sawmill and cut out the dramatic price increases that lumberyards have..
I can buy hardwoods cheaper at my local sawmill than I can buy pine at the lumberyards, much much cheaper!
For example I used black walnut, cherry, hard maple, Tamarack, and white oak in my 5000sq.ft. home and enough wood to do a double timberframe (Timbers inside and outside) that is built stronger than a railroad bridge cost me $25,000. You couldn't buy 2x4's and plywood at that price at a lumberyard!
Well my wife has decided that we can't do this..... We went to look at a builers home in a subdivision today. I'm not enthused about it at all. We talked and I decided to see about subbing out the foundation and framing to speed up the process. I looked into construction-to-perm loans and we have someone coming over this week to discuss it. He is from U-Build IT.. From what I gather they help you meet your projections and manage the project. They make the bank feel more secure about lending money. So hopefully he will back me up when I say we can have it done in a year if I sub out the foundation, and framing.
It is really frustrating to get a mortgage for almost $300,000 and get half the house. Well the square footage isn't far off, but its everything else: smaller lot, smaller garage, cheap carpet all over (because they want an arm and a leg for hardwood), bare necessity of outlets, 2 phone jacks, and 2 cable jacks...and I can't get in the hosue until we close on it because its a liability. My wife wants me to be enthused, but I am finding it hard considering I know we could have SOOO much more for our money if we did it ourselves.
>> I know we could have SOOO much more for our money if we did it ourselves. <<
Yea, but your time isn't free so you really aren't getting "SOOO much more" because you would be investing "SOOO much more". Also consider that builder's are typically making only 10 - 20%, depending on the housing market where you live, so don't think you are saving gobs of money right out of the chute. Builders are good at building for less $ by controlling costs, and you don't necessarily have that in your tool box. If they don't, they don't stay in business.
I'm not really sure that just wanting to save money is really the right motivation, unless you are in the contracting biz so you can really get the most for your $. I think better reasons are "because we want a custom house built the way we want it built" and "I just love building stuff" and "I want to do it for the satisfaction" and things along that line. Matt
Matt,
you make a valid point why someone should to build their own house but Ricky is absolutely correct regarding the cost factor..
Every business needs a profit over and above their wages and expenses. Normally that can vary from 15 % to sometimes as much as 30% When you add all of the contractors/subcontractors and such and subcontractors bills being added to contractors there can be an astonishing level of added cost to any project..
Can a DIY save over 50%? maybe! It's possible and if the DIY has the time and contacts who will treat him fairly he will succeed... I've known miore than a few who have and not all of them are in the industry..
Sweat equitity is undervalued because it's often seen as a way to get something for nothing.. Thus people with no ambition, no skill, and no real concern think , Oh it's easy, look at what I will save!
Few realize the absolute total dedication and effort required to do the work well and have something you can be proud of.. Those that do wind up (indirectly paying for all the past misdeeds of DIY"s without the same prejudices from the bank regarding the varied work levels of pros..
Tried to paste this before, too big, trying in sections, will follow with text.
CPI, ref Factor Approximate list of materials, $$1973 <!---->
1970 0.219 4.57 Permits $300 Bldg, septic, plumb, electrical Nbote >>> CPI increase NOW!!! <!---->
1971 0.229 4.37 Electrical $1,100 All spec grade, low voltage switching <!---->
1972 0.236 4.24 Windows $1,600 Insulated, approx $4 sq ft. <!---->
1973 0.251 3.98 dim. Lumber $1,800 Avg of $120 MBM <!---->
1974 0.278 3.60 1/2 plywood $800 avg $4 sheet <!---->
1975 0.304 3.29 3/4 plywood $1,200 avg $6 sheet <!---->
1976 0.321 3.12 Doors $300 solid core 36" luan, $30 each <!---->
1977 0.342 2.92 Stained glass $50 garage sale find, raw glass & came <!---->
1978 0.368 2.72 Concrete $1,400 Avg $16 yard, 4 to 6 sack mix <!---->
1979 0.41 2.44 hardware $300 Nails, hinges, hangers, adhesive, etc. <!---->
1980 0.465 2.15 laminate $100 Countertops,etc. <!---->
1981 0.513 1.95 rebar, steel $200 Iclude built in safe welded up, all salvage @<10 cent/lb. <!---->
1982 0.545 1.83 drainage $50 full perimeter footing, gravity drain <!---->
1983 0.562 1.78 paneling $300 Walnut and oak, not faux <!---->
1984 0.587 1.70 drywall $200 avg $2.19 or so 1/2 4x8 <!---->
1985 0.608 1.64 finish lumber $200 oak, cherry, maple <!---->
1986 0.619 1.62 carpet $1,200 great deal, avg $5 yd in hard times for local merchants <!---->
1987 0.641 1.56 appliances $1,000 all, incl WH, as in line above <!---->
1988 0.668 1.50 roofing $250 Kegs of tar were $1.17, so did built up roof <!---->
1989 0.7 1.43 plumbing $400 Sears surplus fixtures, sinks (no longer any Sears Surplus stores) <!---->
1990 0.738 1.36 cab. Doors, etc. $100 $1 ea door from overturnd barge, got first of pick, 60 good of thousands<!---->
1991 0.769 1.30 Well $400 Self drilled, includes pump house, pump, tank, etc. <!---->
1992 0.792 1.26 poly, t/p $250 No tyvek <!---->
1993 0.816 1.23 Septic $300 Self designed and installed <!---->
1994 0.837 1.19 paint, finish $200 Lot of $1 /gal sears surplus <!---->
1995 0.861 1.16 cedar siding $200 #3 1x12, only $70 MBM then <!---->
1996 0.886 1.13 f/brick & flue $100 industrial quality chimeny, full time wood heat <!---->
1997 0.906 1.10 Wear on tools $0 sold a dozer @ profit (=saw chains, etc) still have 2 tractors & more <!---->
1998 0.92 1.09 Logs/stone $0 obtained from clearing 500' road (taken as part of land cost, $9K for 4 ac)<!---->
1999 0.941 1.06 Total $14,300 <!---->
2000 0.972 1.03 CPI factor 4.05 avg of 1971-1974 <!---->
2001 1 1.00 Y2002 $$ $58,904 <!---->
2002 1.018 0.98 Cost ft sq $18 In year 2002 dollars, material cost <!---->
Labor/sq ft $19 Est 4500 hours, $5/hr pay rate then, TAX FREE = -33% <!---->
Total cost sq ft $36 Y2002 dollars, all except land included. <!---->
full basement not included in square footage = free shop!
Entire message too big all at once, 2nd part:
An additional welcome Rick.
The previous posts were our actual costs, prorated by CPI to 2002, approx 5000 sq ft house with all the special bult ins DW wanted -dedicated sewing room, big kitchen and pantry, etc.
YOU MUST have 100% of your wife's support and committment for this type project. It definetely builds a stronger marriage if it is strong to begin with and you are both committed. We did it when we were 26 YO to 30 YO and had lots of energy (your approx age now) and a 4 YO and 6 YO at the start. We did 100% - drew plans, got permits, dug well, cleared land, did septic, 100% building and concrete, etc.
Lived 5 mi away in house being bought on mortgage, no loan to build house, did have mortgage on land purchase, learned how to get stuff really cheap - some localwholesalers (esp plumbing and hvac jobbers) refused to sell wholesale, but always found a wholesale outfit willing to sell.
Started in March '72 on house, moved in in July '74, with bare walls, minimum needed to satisfy codes.
DW espec. did not like melting kegs of tar in a 55 gal barrel and painting the foundation, but the emulsions are much better now <G>
Was apprehensive that the kids would not like the house for all the grumbling when they 'got to' spend weekends playing in a corner with a space heater the winter before we moved in while we wer building, but they sure liked theri8 16 ft by 24 ft 'bedroom suites' when finished!
As to the non-diy comments on "your own time", etc. - it sure beats the heck out of jogging for exercise, and is a money maker vs. loser for going to a pro ball game, etc. PLUS, you labor is tax free!
Good luck.
Visualize the attachment without the garage or deck with gravel diriveway and that was at move-in, another 2+ years to get all the exterior finishing touches.
View Image
Edited 6/11/2005 9:46 pm ET by JUNKHOUND
Junkhound - I've seen your name for a while, and wondered what your claim to fame was. After looking at the prices you paid, I think I need your picture for my wall - (to go next to Sphere). I thought I was cheap, but you are a much better shopper". You do real nice work too. Don
Rick,
Your comment about your wife's decision says far more about your relationship with your wife than I think even you understand.. Please read everything before you form an opinion regarding this..
Your wife (as wives tend to do) isn't sure about your ability to carry this off.. Maybe you've never shown her that side of your nature (or maybe you don't have that side) maybe your wife sees what you suggest as a pipe dream and doesn't have a fundamental grasp of how to go about doing it so she assumes that just like all dresses are made in a factory all homes should be sold only when they are finished..
Bottom line is she is afraid..
Afraid that you will fail, afraid that you are overreaching, afraid that it will make her miserable and just afraid..
In that mood you won't ever succeed. Conversely if in your heart of hearts you want to build your own home and have it reflect your values you won't ever be happy.. Oh, maybe you'll learn to live with it but that unhappiness is there and it won't go away..
You need to have a discussion with your wife where she actually listens rather than just gives you lip service. She believes in you enough to allow you to do this..
Conversesly you need to carefully listen to her to all her fears and worries.. Not just steamroller over them with assurances and platitudes and conviction that everything will come out in the end..
Don't act now!
Well, I talked to my wife and she finally can clean and said what her hang up was. She is afraid that it will take years to complete. She knows I can do the work and I've done all the work on our home now and have done additions for her family. My wife is afraid of change. If that change involves any kind of risk, then there is no way she will do it. Between her and my parents I was in a lose - lose situation. My parents are the same. While I grew up doing construction work, and racing, they have no confidence in my ability. Here is a good example: I needed a roll cage for my race car. I decided to tech myself how to weld and do it myself as it was cheaper. My dad thought I was crazy for trying this. You know what, I passed NHRA tech inspection with flying colors, even got some compliments for my good work. And this on the first welding project I attempted.
Bottom line is I settled for the sake of my family. We are going in this week to sign the contract to build a home in a subdivision. I do get a 3 car garage and a full basement out of it. The house is nice and is only 100 sq ft smaller than the one we were going to build. While the lot is only 1/4 acres, which makes me want to cry, it is in an area that is building up so the homes value should increase nicely. While the equity I gain will never compare with a home I built myself there is something I can look forward to. The kids are in a better school district, and there is a park 4 houses away.
I am trying to be positive about this, but it does burn me a little. I tried to convey to her how I am sick of being average, but she doesn't get it. She doesn't understand the feeling of accomplishment in designing and building something on your own, whether it is a house, bookcase, desk, or race car.
Rick,
Sit down with her again and explain what you just did to me.. Have her understand that there is just no way you can be happy even if she is.. This is one of those things that can break a marriage up.
. She gets a nice new house and she thinks she'll be happy.. at first she is and then she looks around and sees her neighbor with a,..... and another neighbor with a ,..... and feels the need to be like them (women tend to be herd animals, very few are bold enough to set their own path)... The end result is that the house is only the tip of the iceberg. she'll want drapes and window treatments and stuff.. If you fail to provide it for her she'll feel neglected..
Meanwhile you're thinking of the things you could have had and the sort of things you're denied.. not a very sound basis for a marriage..
Now I'm not sure that will allow her to approve of your plans but if it's out in the open at least it won't fester..
Rick,You did the right thing. My wife and I built (still finishing) our house. We did everything (from clearing the land to finishing) with the exception of excavation, the foundation, brick, heating and drywall. It was by far the most stressful thing I've ever experienced thing both personally and on my marriage. My wife was 100% supportive, and when we started we had no kids, but it's still the only time in our 8 years of marriage we've ever raised our voices at each other.When we moved in, we didn't even have running water for a few weeks. Five years later, we've got 3 kids, but still no trim on the main floor, lots of missing doors, an unfinished master bath, no back deck, .... We started off on the one year plan, we're now on the 10 year plan, and most of our friends think we're nuts.It's a great feeling of acomplishment (and will be even better if/when? it's finished), but it's certainly not worth ruining a marriage over. Maybe you can convince her to let you build a cottage, or a race car in the garage :) I'm still working on getting on permission for the race car!
When your finances allow, Rick, you can clear your mind of this and have some fun, too. Go out in the sticks and buy a little land and build yourself a weekend cabin. You can make it as elaborate as you like, work on it whenever you want to, and take as long as you like.
Start dreaming now, designing, fiddling with plans. The exercise will help your mind, and if it all works out, you'll wind up with a nice getaway place.
Greg
My getaway place was supposed to be my 30x60 garage :) . I get a 3 car garage, roughly half the size of the one I had planned. I made her swear that there will be nothing that is not mine in the garage. I already have the race car :) I would just like a little bigger place to work on it. While this garage won't have enough room for a bridgeport or lathe, it has enough room for everything else. The full size basement has more than enough room for my wood shop. This is something I can live with, just not exactly what I wanted. I will eventually get what I want, as I have never failed in that department.......it just might take me a little longer.
I did make a deal with her in that since I won't be devoting a year to building a house that I will get to devote more of my time to racing. I appreciate everyone's input into this as it opened my eyes to the process and all involved.
Go racing that sounds like a good deal
If I were to build again, I wouldn't.
Okay, if I were building a small retreat of vacation cabin/cottage, sure, I'd give it another go. But another 4000+ sqft house? Nope.
I'd sub out the shell, then take over. No way I'd frame another big one solo.
One thing you might consider, Rick, is to have the house designed/built with the intention that you can come in later and add some detailing.
A few built-ins, etc. Some added detailed trim. None of it cookie cutter. Kitchen cabinets with a bit of flair. That's where you can make the difference.
The exterior of you house may still look cookie-dutter, but the interior will look "Rick".
Rick I have done many of the same things you have done but if you don't have 100% support from your wife and family your dreams will be their nightmares. Don't ask me how I know this. No wife wants to live in a house under perpetual construction. I had not planned on building as much of our house myself as I did. We lost our last home in a flood and insurance did not come close to providing funds for a new home. After spending 15 years rehabbing our first home we took out a large mortgage and started all over again.
I have any tool required to build a house or make millwork and cabinets but there is only so many hours to devote to home building and other family matters. Your frustration level will rise every time a sub does not show up or you miss a deadline.
I have not touched my race car in years, I used to have time to fly planes and ride motorcycles. You ultimately will have more time to create other things, you might want to build some furniture for the new house or be able to go somewhere at a moments notice. Building your own house is not just a job it a major responsibility.
I don't regret building my house but I can't say it's the right path to go down if you can't get family support and commitment in the planing stage. Make the best of your new home and enjoy all the extra time to do other things you that you like to do.
Good Luck