Standard flat-rate for installing a new, pre-hung entry door around here is something on the order of $225 for most of the window/door specialty suppliers. That’s for yanking the old door, swapping the lockset, and plugging in the new door, say for an upgrade or an after-burglary repair.
I’ve also been told (but I didn’t check) that the big box stores in the area will drill, mortise, install the lockset, and hang a slab in a 3/8″ finger-jointed frame for $60.
The reason I mention this is that I spent today installing doors, and the client thought that the $120 per door it cost him was too expensive. I don’t think so, but I’ve been known to be wrong so….
The client furnished undrilled/unmortised slabs, 1×5 #1&2 pine stock, cheap Schlage locksets, and off-brand 3″ narrow-butt hinges. The hinges didn’t fit in the cut made by my Stanley hinge-mortise marker, so I had to mark and mortise by hand. The ROs weren’t too bad, but they could have been better; from one to the next there’d be a height diff of 1¼”, for instance. Studs not way out, but not plumb laterally either. I used a goodly number of shims, let’s say.
A couple of walls were out of fore-and-aft plumb by ½”/4′ so I had to screw around with faking plumb and crinking the hinges a tad to make them bind so the door wouldn’t swing open/shut by itself and still be close enough to flush-the-wall to avoid trim problems later. The tile floors were all over the place: 3/8″ rise in 30 inches so two of the three doors had to have a 0-¼” wedge planed off the bottom just so they could open and clear the floor at some point in the swing.
Nothing really major, in other words, but definitely not a plug-n-play, either.
Anyway, the work included: drill and mortise the lockset and hinges; install all the hardware; build the finish frames out of 1×5; and shim & plane to make it all work properly.
Is $120 per door out of line for all that?
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not brought
low by this? For thine evil pales before that which
foolish men call Justice….
Replies
Nope, not out of line. I might have charges more but I'm also slow/careful/deliberate.
But the client has been buying cheap on every thing else so in his mind......
He didn't help his own bottom line by alternating between stopping me to yak about nothing and micro-managing every single installation down to (literally) 32nds of an inch. I just shrugged and went with the flow, but If he'd not been there, I could have installed at least one, maybe two additional doors in the same 9 hours.
Weird dude. I'd had a baaad feeling going into this one, about maybe not getting paid or getting into a hollering match with him. His entire lead-up to this job was attitudinal and flaky, and I'd heard bad things about him from other guys in the biz around here. Nobody wants to work for him.
But when I arrived this morning at 7 he was nice as pie, bought me a Tim Horton's doughnut on his way back from an errand to get door-stop moulding (which he'd forgotten), and then at the end of the day hauled out a bankroll and paid me in cash. Then we just agreed in a civil manner than I was too expensive for him, and that was that.
Weird dude....
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
An exterior door with an applied door stop?
You're kidding... tell me you're kidding????
No, these were all interior doors; 1-3/8 veneered-pine six-panel jobs made in Brazil. Seconds; he got 'em for $50 per slab.
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
How much money do you think rez made selling him those doors for $50 ( yuck! yuck!)
When you said $120/ door, is that Canadian or U.S. $ ? Not sure if that makes that much of a difference, just helps in me thinking about it.
Where you still able to make an o.k. profit?
Thanks
Live by the sword, die by the sword....choose your sword wisely.
Where you still able to make an o.k. profit?
My expenses for the day were about $2 in gasoline, a Dagwood sandwich, three clips of 16ga air nails, and about thirty shims.
All the tools are paid for and already amortised down to zero, so my use of them is cost free.
OTOH, I just bought a 'new' truck. Monthly payments are $450; insurance is $50/mo. (Depreciation? Whadda I No? I'll probably keep it till either it or me falls apart and dies, like the old one....) On a daily basis that's a bit under $17.
So, yeah, I made a profit...which I can now use to try and reduce some of my short-term debt and pay the mortgage and eat and yadda, yadda, yadda....
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
You're way too high. I just bid on a house with 55 doors, over half 9/0, half of the remaining 8/0. Pre-finished, 1 3/4" mahogany, assemble jambs, 10 have curved casing.My bid worked out around $215/door... guys that got the job bid $125/dr... you hosed your guy. If dogs run free, then what must be,
Must be, and that is all.
True love can make a blade of grass
Stand up straight and tall.
In harmony with the cosmic sea,
True love needs no company,
It can cure the soul, it can make it whole,
If dogs run free.
He shouldnt complain at all your dealing with a bunch of small problems to give a door that works properly. Just because its in the hole does that make it installed?-- thats probably what big box stores would do
Maybe why the framing and tile are screwey because he beats people down on the price and gets that kind of work done.
Sounds like he should be lucky to even have you care enough to do it right, although we probaly would do it the same way for a gratefull customer as a tightwad price shopper like that
$120 is a bargin. I get $600.00 for that and would happily sub it out to you for $150 and go fishing .
Would one not consider location (ahem, cost of living based on location) a factor? For instance, I bet in a location where incomes are low the rates are a lot lower than, say, Boston, NYC, SFC, etc.
If someone wanted to charge me $200-300 per exterior door for install I'd pay it, but that assumes they know what they are doing and not some shade-tree fly-by-night. Unfortunately, some locations only have ST carpenters. :)
I'd say $120 is out of line!!! For everything that you had to do, I think it would be more than fair to bump that price up even more.
From what Ive been told, the big box price is just for the staight forward easy install. Something out of wack, or need finesseing, there is a sur-charge. Little extra shimming, thats $15. Adjust the hinges, another $15, etc..... Pretty soon that $60 door install is $145.
I dont know how they could survive on chargeing only $60 to do a door install like that. I coudln't, not at my speed.
I dont know how they could survive on chargeing only $60 to do a door install like that.
That wasn't for a door install; it was just to install the lockset and mount the slab in a factory frame-kit. Also, as I said in the OP I didn't check that price; it was this client who told me that and I discounted it mentally because of the source. Figured he was trying to beat me down...but even hungry as I am at the moment, I am finally (thank bog) old enough to know better.
However, figure the big boxes are hiring kids at $12 an hour to do that work in a shop specifically equipped for it. If it takes a kid like that more than 20 minutes to punch it out with pre-set mortising jigs and a big-arsed drill-press driving a 2-1/8" Forstner, I'd be surprised. That's $4 per slab, plus the cost of the frame-kit (retail about $20).
Me, I'm tripping over all the cräp he's got lying around his place and using a couple of sawhorses, a Workmate, a hole saw in a hand-held ½" Makita, a butt-marker and a chisel to do the same job. Takes me about 20 minutes to drill and mortise, and another 5 to install the hardware. Then a variable time--from 10 to 30 minutes, depending on the shape of the frame--to install the other leaf of the hinges on the frame, hang it, and adjust the frame to fit the door. More if I've got to pull it after a first try and shave a wedge off the bottom to make it swing clear.
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
Sounds low to me, but I don't know your economy or business model.
One of the way you avoid these types of discussions is to offer alternative closes on fixed bid proposals with one open ended cost plus offer.
It might say:
Option 1: Re-frame all walls to minimize door hanging costs. $800
Hang prehung/pre bored doors $400. Total #1200.
Option 2: Hang prehung/prebored doors in substandard existing openings. Installation includes substantial amount of adjustment time to ensure that doors will meet minimum swing standards. Installer cannot guarantee a quality installation with reference to finished trim reveals, alignment including plumb, level and square. Future Latching problems will result as a result of this installation as well as rubbing and friction that will have to be maintained at all heat/cool cylces. Total cost: $1000
Option 3: Re-frame all walls and custom install all slabs, jambs, casing and hardware on an open end, no limit hourly basis. Estimated total cost of $1500 cannot be guaranteed.
The purpose of this three pronged approach is to educate the client. After discussing the three options, they get to ask you questions and you explain your dilemma. You make them aware of the difficulty in dealing with the situation and explain why your unique skill is exactly the thing that will be needed to bring this difficult task home in a professional manner.
If they bitch about the price at the end, you get to say: "Aren't you glad that you didn't take the more expensive option?" or..."Sorry, you had the option to choose a different approach. You avoided the risk and I accepted it and sometimes I win, sometimes I lose....at the end of the year they balance one another out....I'll probably end up hanging the next doors at $25 or less on the next one." You could add "If I always was on the right side of the equation, I'd be retired."
Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
The purpose of this three pronged approach is to educate the client. After discussing the three options, they get to ask you questions and you explain
LOL. We're still on the same page, Blue. I went through almost exactly what you described with this guy last Sunday when I first met him while doing one of my door-to-door walks.
First thing this guy does after I hand him my brochure is ask me how much I charge. I tell him my hourly rate. 'Whoa! I never pay that much!' he says. I say, well, nice to have met you, and start to walk on down the road.
'Why you charge so much?' he calls after me. 'I gotta lotta work here.' (Look, I'm not making this up. The guy's not-quite-right-off-da-boat but he really does talk that way....)
I ask him if he asks the car dealer why he charges $75/hour for service (a good deal more than I charge, BTW).
'No, but he gotta big shop and gotta lotta expense to cover.'
And I gotta, uh, excuse me, I have thirty grand worth of tools and twenty-five grand worth of truck. So what's your problem with me charging enough to pay for all that? You prefer to hire some kid with a $4.99 hammer and a beat up ladder sticking out the rear window of his Ford Pony...?
He thinks about this for a while, then asks, 'You gonna be busy onna Friday? I gotta some doors I gotta putta doorknob onna. You gotta drill?'
'If you want to book me for Friday,' I say, now wanting just to get outta there, 'that will require a 50% deposit.'
'Whoa! I never pay any deposit!'
'Well, that's the way I work. If you want to call me the night before, you might get lucky. But I don't guarantee anything.'
'Yeah, but....'
Oh, bog save me....
It went round a while longer, and I explained at length pretty much all of what you posted, and finally I got out of there and left him with the understanding that he could call me the night before if he felt like trusting his luck. But the very next day he called, wanting to book me--deposit and all--for Thursday. He had to know I'd be there because he had to rent a truck to pick up the doors and blah,blah,blah.... But he's back in Montreal by then, so I have to send him a Paypal invoice to get the dough up here before Thursday, but he couldn't figure that out and finally I just said, Okay, I'll see you Thursday at 7am. Sheesh.
Now you understand why I had that baaaad feeling going in, LOL....
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
Charge more so he can brag about how much he paid for that installation.
A La Carte Government funding... the real democracy.
yur low about 40/45$ per door...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming
WOW!!! What a Ride!
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
Hell no!!!!!!! I think it's a bargain.
"Anyway, the work included: drill and mortise the lockset and hinges; install all the hardware; build the finish frames out of 1x5; and shim & plane to make it all work properly."
So you are hanging doors in place, in RO's, building jambs and installing everything!?
120$ is a bargain.
120$ is a bargain.
Thanks. Seems like pretty much everyone agrees on that, and it's good to know I haven't drifted over the line while swimming hard against inflation, LOL.
That $120 wasn't a flat rate; I should make that clear for those who don't know me. I always work by the hour. $120 is what the average cost per door worked out to when I handed him the bill for the day.
I think one of the reasons I wondered about this (at least enough to post the question here) was that I've just raised my rates more than I've ever raised them in a single jump: Bumped up the hourly rate by $7.50 per hour after having held steady for two years without an increase. So there's this nagging little voice which wants to say, 'See! See! You went up too much too fast!! See!'
The other reason I wondered about this is possibly that this has been a very slow start to the season for me. None of my regular clients are buying anything at the moment, and that's the first time that's happened in over 10 years. What with all the doom-and-gloom in the US economic indicators we hear on the news, that particular up-close-and-personal economic indicator of my own is a bit worrying. Why I've been pounding the pavement and beating the bushes for new work....
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
"I always work by the hour."You just found out why some clients have to be fixed bid only. In my previous post, I explained that you had to offer three options. It's evident that you didn't and only tried to explain things and prove that your hourly rate is justifiable. Thats a no win discussion with a guy like that. If you truly insist on only accepting hourly jobs, then your fixed bid to this guy should have been double what you thought the hourly rate would yield. For instance, you'd say "Mr Jones, since you don't want to pay such a high hourly rate, I'll be forced to only offer you a fixed bid. To mitigate my risk, I'll bid $2000. If I do it hourly at my rate, it will probably be $1000." Let him choose his poison. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
I explained that you had to offer three options. It's evident that you didn't
your fixed bid to this guy should have been double what you thought the hourly rate would yield.
Jim, that's exactly the way it went down. My standard and well-used spiel on 'why my hourly rate is better for you than my flat rate' is almost word for word what you said.
90% of the time the prospect sees reason and goes with the hourly rate and is happy in the long run. 10% of the time he does not see reason, is convinced I'm trying to jack him around, refuses both offers, and becomes someone else's problem, not mine.
In this case, the guy has burned through every contractor, carp, and rocker in this area over the last two and a half years. He is now having to import talent from 50 and 100 kilometers away, which is costing him for T&T and fuel surcharges is probably why he got so anxious to book me in spite of his up-front objections. After all, I'm less than 1000 yards away, living directly across the lake from him.
He started this 'remod' (it's actually an illegal tear-down-and-rebuild, but that's not the issue) in the fall of 2006. What with changing contractors & carps on a weekly or or semi-monthly basis, he is only now getting to where he can see the light at the end of his self-dug tunnel. But the important point to me is that it ain't my problem unless I let it become my problem.
I invest too much of myself in my business--physically, financially, and emotionally--to get involved with anyone who is looking for the best of the bargain at everyone else's expense. Clients like that are invariably difficult, complaining, unreasonable, cheap, and as slow to pay as they are quick to bitch. They will invent any excuse to knock money off your bill, call you back seven times for imaginary problems, and still want to dicker money off the bill. And no matter how good your work was, they will find something bad to say about you to all their buddies and BILs (not that that's a bad thing, LOL).
Whatever. I don't have time for that crâp. I'd rather wash dishes in a greasy spoon.
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
Okay....I'll accept your amended statement to be "I usually only work by the hour..." Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Jim, the only time I work on a fixed price quote (per unit or per job) is when I get a commission to build custom cabs, doors/windows, or furniture in my own shop where I have total control of all the variables. I figure that under those circumstances if it costs me more than I thought it would, it's my fault, so I oughta be the one to eat it.
On all other work, I will provide a detailed estimate (which I charge for) if requested, or a ballpark (which I give for nothing, because that's what it's worth). In my estimate, I guarantee two things: (a) my hourly rate; and (b) my markup on materials. I then break the job down by stages, list all the materials right down to the hardware, and (when necessary) draw a set of plans. This usually gets me within about 10% of the real bill...if nothing nasty shows up when I start stripping.
To cover that exigence, I have very clear and specific language in my contract which lays this all out. And if I suspect for an instant that the prospect has not bothered to read all the 'fine print', I take the trouble to give it to him verbally before I take his check. I don't want any nasty surprises or misunderstandings down the road.
When I encounter a prospect who starts in with the standard clap-trap about 'all the other roofers charge by the square' or 'all the other tapers are charging by the foot' or anything of that sort, I smile and reply, 'Well, maybe you'd be happier if you hired one of them. I don't work that way because it would cost you more if I did. But I understand that some people prefer to pay more in order to know the total price tag in advance. I can do that for you, but I'll tell you right now that the way I determine a fixed-price quote is to double what I think it'll cost if I do it by the hour. It's your choice, of course.'
That is usually enough to stop them dead, and often they will allow me to explain how this business really works behind all the bullship fixed price quotes. Once I do that, like I said, 90% of live ones go with the hourly rate, and the other 10% go away.
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
The only prehungs I ever do are to replace existing or as part of a larger project. But I believe line item contractors in my area are charging $135/door if everything is level, plumb and square. Otherwise $165 or more, depending on how out of whack the openings are. I'm guessing if you charged the guy $85 a door he'd still have b*tched about the price. For some people, it's just their nature. Don't let it get to ya.--------------------------------------------------------
Cheap Tools at MyToolbox.netSee some of my work at AWorkOfWood.com
mon ami...
my remodeling "book" says 100$ for field hung + 75$ for hanging the jambs and casing.
labor only with 33% markup
my Handyman "book" (which I use for smaller jobs to recover putzing around time) says
175$ for field hung(hung like a field mouse??) + 115$ for the jamb and case
labor only 50% markup
so you were between 50 and 150 clams LOW!!
in canuckistan dollaros that is a buck-2.98 :)
oh yeah Handyman book is 2 years old so mark up accordingly...
Is there even inflation in Canadia??
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"After the laws of Physics, everything else is opinion"
-Neil deGrasse Tyson
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If Pasta and Antipasta meet is it the end of the Universe???
Edited 5/31/2008 1:01 pm ET by MisterT
Mrs 'Snort gives that buck 2.98 thing every time I ask what it costs to get lucky... had no idea she wanted a canukian...Back to point... we normally charge $105 to hang a solid core 6/8 pre-hung, 25 bucks to case in mitered fashion... there's a lot more involved than just sticking a slab in a hole:Roll outTighten up all hinge side jacks with screwsRe-screw rockmeasure openingscheck inventory to openingscheck doors and jambs for damageunpack doorsmove doors to openingsshoot all ro jambscut jamb legs to fit floorsscribe jambs to accomodate different floorings, schluter strips, whateverhang door... wait isn't this where we started?re-do the hinge screwstenderize the rock to make the casing appear like it oughtago find the casing and get it close to the sawcaseclean up the mess from unpacking and tenderizing and cuttingRoll upDang, I'm charging more. If dogs run free, then what must be,
Must be, and that is all.
True love can make a blade of grass
Stand up straight and tall.
In harmony with the cosmic sea,
True love needs no company,
It can cure the soul, it can make it whole,
If dogs run free.
I hear ya!!!I'm takin DW to Canuckistan in August....I'm gonna need to exchange some$$ for a buck 2.98.....I also hear ya on the door stuff....You forgot having to get more casing or jamb stock because the HO got it in 8, 12, 16 ft lengths and got exacty the no of feet to do 5 doors but doesn't understand that you can't splice a door jamb or a casing....and it is a discontinued casing he got at the eastbumfug lumber outlet and bottle redemption center....kiss Mrs Snort for me and tell her my buck 2.98 is in the mail.....
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"After the laws of Physics, everything else is opinion" -Neil deGrasse Tyson
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.
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If Pasta and Antipasta meet is it the end of the Universe???
Glad you posted this. I've been getting $85 for interior doors. Guess i'm good to go up.
Of course around here when I charge a fair price for a bathroom I get shot down by vultures who underbid anything just to get work, so maybe not.