Dovetail drawers – do they require glue?
Francorosso
| Posted in General Discussion on
I’m putting together some drawers that I ordered online, and not being a woodworking guru, and without any instructions, I am wondering do these dovetail joints require glue? When I put them together they seem pretty firm…..
Frank
Replies
yes.. glue them...
yellow glue will be fine...
Titebond is a good choice too..
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming
WOW!!! What a Ride!
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
They do ned glue. The great advantage of dovetail joints is you get a lot of glue surface area plus a mechanical means of keeping ther drawer together againts the tension forces applied during use. The glue will keep them from racking etc. Doesn't take much glue. Just be sure they are square before the glue sets up.
Tom
Douglasville, GA
Face dovetail, yes. Sliding dovetail, no. But it's always a good idea to glue in the bottoms to keep them square.
PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
"But it's always a good idea to glue in the bottoms to keep them square."
I'm under the impression that you aren't supposed to glue drawer bottoms due to expansion/contraction issues.
Norm never does...
If the world was a logical place, men would ride horseback sidesaddle.
You don't want to glue a solid wood bottom. If the drawer bottom is made from plywood then glue is acceptable.Tom
Douglasville, GA
Yes Boss, for a solid wood bottom that's correct. Must allow for the wood movement. Bottom is only attached at the back with easily removeable fasteners so you can shift the bottom toward the front if/when wood shrinkage causes a gap to appear. Grain direction must be side-to-side. Assumption is not kiln-dried wood with more drying to happen.
But very few use solid wood bottoms anymore. Pretty sure the OP is not. With composite bottoms there's no reason not to glue in the bottoms. And, as I mentioned, a very good reason to do so. Anybody building truly traditional drawers would know the difference. And be hand-cutting the dovetails, which brings the understanding about glue, making this thread redundant.
You're also aware that the traditional bottom is a raised panel? With the raised side down. That's the method for dealing with floating panels. The raised side of the panel was never considered attractive. Wainscotting had the raised side to the wall. Somewhere that all got reversed and folks are now proud of their "raised panel" cabinets. Which you won't see in my house.
Forgive me for not being overly impressed with Norm. It was espousing him that convinced me (and more than a few others) to leave FineWoodworking. Nail belt in the shop?PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
Hi Tom ,
As you said the traditional solid bottoms looked like a raised panel on the bottom side . They used a cove or plow bit in a hand molding type of plane merely to relieve the thickness so it would fit into the groove of the drawer box, not for decoration. Typically they were only relieved on 3 sides , not on the back end . The reason for turning the relieved side down was not aesthetic , it will not slide in the other way .
regards dusty
The reason for turning the relieved side down was not aesthetic , it will not slide in the other way .
Well, that and who wants a drawer bottom that isn't flat.Tom
Douglasville, GA
Yup !
The reason for turning the relieved side down was not aesthetic , it will not slide in the other way .
Sure it would. Just gotta carve out enough room for everything. Might look pretty peculiar. LOL
Is that how wainscot panels got to have the raised side to the wall? So rooms didn't look like a bunch of bottom side of drawer bottoms?PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
NORM BASH! Norm Bash!
I too am not impressed. He is a well coddled worker, but far from a person I would try to learn anything from.
The Roy Underhill teachings are far more valuble to us who don't have corporate funding and promo...or electricity, LOL.
Tom, I just made a floor scraper to remove the crud of 100+ yrs and create some scrub plane looks with out having to be hands and knees with a radiused sole plane. I took an old 12'' HSS saw blade and cut out a size like a card scraper, with about a 30" radius arc, tack welded it to a PRYMATE ( sorta like a wonderbar, for ripping and tearing and prying..heavy steel with a stout padded handle) and when I get the final edge on and attack some really nasty SYP flooring upstairs, I'll post a pic of the results.
So, Norms adversion to actually making a tool, or not relying on gizmos that are touted, dissueded me from watching him other than for the entertainment factor of my wife saying " geeze, he is an idiot isn't he?"
You bet I have shop envy, fer certain. But in reality, I still like my humble and trusty "get it done" tools, that I either found at sales or made myself.
I bet next year he gets a CNC 3 axis milling machine complete with Onsrud cutters. That ain't woodworking, thats salesmanship and distance from the art.
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
" If ya plan to face tomorrow, do it soon"
I bet next year he gets a CNC 3 axis milling machine complete with Onsrud cutters. That ain't woodworking, thats salesmanship and distance from the art.
That's funny..............
but probably true!
Doug
LOL.... Slow getting back here. Would you believe I'm seriously solicited to build a house based on that one web page? Actually that's 2 in the last few weeks, both in Va.
Do I remember you mentioning time spent with Roy at Williamsburg (CW)? It was actually the wheel master who fascinated me there. DW took a nap while he and I were talking. Apparently didn't often find a visitor with the background, or interest, to appreciate what he was doing.
Very little of my small viewing time was ever spent on those TV shows so I'm no expert but Roy was working his azz off. Sweat flying. If that was his everyday work mode I'd expect he's got a lot of battle scars.PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
Yeah, I spent a LONG , HOT Summer working there, just for the heck of it. Roy was a Hoot.
Ahh, those memories are some of the best I have.
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
" If ya plan to face tomorrow, do it soon"
Absolutely glue. Carpenters yellow glue is what you want as mentioned above. My glue of choice is Titebond as well, very reliable and available, but I'm sure any yellow aliphitic-resin glue will be fine.
Thanks everybody! Glue it is. I have Gorilla glue, hope that is OK........
yup...
it's mosture cure so dampen the wood very lightly 1st, it will set up faster and clean up the glue while it is still wet with denatured alcohol..
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!<!----><!---->
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
Gorrilaa glue will work but it sure is messy. I'd use some plain old elmer's white myself.Tom
Douglasville, GA
white is too whimpy...
go yellow...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!<!----><!---->
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
Gorilla is good but very messy. White is not recommended. Yellow.
yellow and white glue are essentially the same thing, you just get a longer open time with white Tom
Douglasville, GA
you can't be serious....
key word "essentially"...
I don't buy into that even though white is half the price of yellow...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!<!----><!---->
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
I'm serious. Edge glue two boards together with either glue and see where they break. Either glue will produce a bond that is stroger than the wood itself. I've builrd several hundered drawers and dozens of pieces of furniture woth white elmers. It hasn't failed me yet.Tom
Douglasville, GA
I've made a few thousand laminated chopping boards for resale, back before yellow glue even existed up to the present. Water-resistant yellow works better for stressful applications like that, but in the dovetail instance, both are way stronger than needed for that mechanical joint.
I prefer poly glue for cutting boards, too, however. It's easier on planers, for one thing.
I wouldn't use white glue or regular yellow glue for anything that would be near water like cutting boards. I'd use titebond 2 or 3 or a poly or epoxy but many of those are fairly recent technology. For furniture I prefer white glue, especially for complexx assemblies due to the longer open time. Strength has never been an issue with white glue.
Tom
Douglasville, GA
Edited 9/23/2006 6:53 pm ET by TomW
Tom
I'm with you, white glue is more then adequate to hold dovetailed drawers.
I don't buy much white but certainly not afraid to use it. A lot of stuff was made with white glue that is still holding up just fine, and will continue to do so.
I wouldn't use gorilla glue though, the mess isn't worth it.
Doug
OK guys, I put the four drawers together. On the first one I used Gorilla glue, and just like one of you predicted it was an unholy mess. The last three I used some white all purpose glue I had laying around. The drawers look fine, I'm just going to put them under my workbench so it really isn't important that they look pretty. Thanks for the education!
Frank Corley
Yellow and white glues are both PVA resins, but Titebond is also a yellow glue, albeit a cross-linked PVA, meaning it has better water resistance.I've almost stopped using aliphatic resins because of not wanting to add water to the wood and bec of glue creep.
Hi splintergroupie ,
I am surprised no one brought up the different properties of White glues as opposed to Titebond aliphatic resin type glue , you say it adds some water into the wood , in the last 25 years that has never been a problem for me .
The main advantage in colder climates is the Titebond is not affected by extreme temperature changes as the White can be . After a freeze thaw cycle the White dried in a chalky way and seemed to have been stripped of it's holding power . Not so with Titebond .
It seems folks are concerned about the water resistance in the glue for drawer boxes , who keeps water in a drawer anyway ?
regards dusty
Hi, dusty. Freezing affects yellow glues, too, including Titebond. It will get stringy or lumpy as an indication. It also has a rather short shelf life compared to other glues. I've got a partial bottle of poly glue in the freezer (as an experiment) still good after 3 years. Again, application is the key. What works on a dovetail drawer might not for gluing a thin strip of wenge between two pieces of padauk. Water added to such a joint IS a problem. To those of you experiencing problems with huge messes in gluing with poly glue, you are applying it as you apply yellow glue, which is a matter of pilot error, not the glue's fault. Use about half what you would normally use, and you need to apply it to only one side of the joint.
SG ,
As far as Titebond being affected by freezing , the lumpy & stringy indications you speak of , once warmed to room temp do not effect the working properties as far as the strength or holding powers go . The lumps typically dissipate or you can pour them out without ruining the rest . I wonder what percentage of water actually exists in Titebond regular ?
As far as shelf life goes I know I have had some for over a year or so with no problems , what time lines are you meaning ?
good day to you
dusty
stringy
"what time lines are you meaning"
I used to use 5-10 gallons of the stuff a year, so i go by my own timelines. Also, the place i bought it wouldn't have it delivered in freezing weather (Montana) so i would stock up in October/November for enough to last until spring in my heated shop. I guarantee my laminations for life, so i don't take chances with frozen water-based glue. Titebond says (their caps, not mine:
I certainly agree with the 55° or warmer rule . Very true you don't want to do glue ups at temps lower than that but for the White glue once it froze & thawed it no longer worked for me it was like it was stripped of it's holding power even after it warmed up .At least the Titebond could still be used for a solid glue up .
keep from freezing is not the same as it won't work if it freezes even after reaching a higher temp .Hairs very nicely split.
regards dusty
Agreed. The makers have all bases covered, LOL! I did use some glue that had been frozen, but it was early in my career so i can't truly recall if was plain yellow glue or Titebond II. I had so many failures...and even the laminations that seemed good, i couldn't trust. I just never pushed that part of the envelope again.
Thin some of that white PVA with Diabasic ether, and ethelyne Glycol ( antifreeze) add some surfactant like ammonia, and an emulsifier like milk...you just made a waterbased finish that works very well. But you knew that.
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
" If ya plan to face tomorrow, do it soon"
Yabbut, i LIKE the yellowed patina of age, while PEG has a a higher purpose as a mix for boat drinks.
Yabbut, i LIKE the yellowed patina of age,
You'd love my toenails then....(G)
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
" If ya plan to face tomorrow, do it soon"
Please don't do that to me. I just viewed Shredder's before-and-after shots of a plate of Memphest ribs...don't think my imagination can take much more.
HAha...LMTNO.
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
" If ya plan to face tomorrow, do it soon"
you wanna take yur thread back???
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!<!----><!---->
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
Dovetails are not the application for your Gorilla glue, because it will foam out of the joints and make an unnecessary mess. As others have said, better to stay with the yellow glue.********************************************************
"It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts."
John Wooden 1910-
yellow glue is the way to go. The Gorilla will give you big mess.
Go with the yellow, as mentioned and also be like "Norm" and keep a clean, damp sponge handy for clean up/wipe up. Dovetails too nice to leave smeared with dried glue.
...a bad day at the beach is better than a good day anywhere else... :)
Any glue will work, including hide glue and epoxy, but there are advantages and disadvantages to each one. I like Poly (gorilla glue) bec it's thin and easy to direct in a dovetail situation and the squeeze-out is simple to pare off. It will expand as it cures, so the joint needs to be clamped. (They all do, really, but this is the only glue that expands as it cures.) I've also had joint failures if i remove the clamps too soon, so i leave my poly glue joints clamped at least overnight.
I like that poly glue makes a less-visible line than a yellow glue. White glue is about the same as poly, but it is more thermoplastic than yellow glue, not a problem normally with a drawer situation, however. Titebond II is waterproof, also not a factor in this instance.
The inside corner will be the area you need to watch bec fully dried white or yellow glue is a pain to get out of there. Either mask off the dreawer side against the joint so the squeeze-out flows over tape instead of the wood, or pare off the residue while it's still rubbery.
Even though you have dovetail drawers, squaring during the glue cure is extemely important. Set them on a FLAT surface to dry and be sure diagonals measure exactly the same.
Edited 9/23/2006 4:49 pm ET by splintergroupie
I have a small Black Walnut coffee table built by a paternal ancestor ca. 1850's.
Several years ago, I disassembled it to do a total rebuild and refinish as it had been stored in a barn and sported stains from water and bat droppings.
The single drawer, with its hand cut dovetails, had absolutely no glue and was in perfect condition and the drawer, even after acclimated to in-house conditions, was, and remains, as solid as if carved out of a single block of wood.
I'll add that I've encounted dovetail drawer assemblies since that had no glue and were perfectly funtional.
Edited 9/24/2006 3:21 pm by Notchman
Yep, hand cut dovetails can work dry, but typical production routed dovetails need glue to stay together due to the rounded pins and tails (on the inside of the joint). Hide glue is good for heirloom furniture with tight-fitting joinery. It is very strong, creep-free, and also easily reversible for purposes of maintenance. That is why it is used to build violins.Bill