I have been researching the qualifications to become an Indiana licensed electrician and in my quest I have become very confused. Can anyone give me some insite into the process by answering the following:
1) I can’t understand why some states,like Indiana, would rather license at the city/county level rather than the state level.
2) And then in some areas, why it isn’t necessary to have an electrical license at all.
3) And then, the whole apprenticeship process. It seems that basically if you haven’t ever worked for an employer in the electrical field, you can’t ever get an electrical license of your own. Is this true? I served an informal apprenticeship where nothing was documented, basically because my employer wasn’t a huge company……how can I make that experience count? That employer went bankrupt, so there is no way to verify anything.
4) Is it presumed that by passing the appropriate Experian journeyman or master examination, that you have enough knowledge to qualify for a license without having worked for an employer in the electrical field?
Replies
I don't know any thing about Indiana.
1. neither can I - people paid off the state legislature to no put in a good lic. requirement. is my guess.
2. not enough people died or more correctly not the right people died.
3. one state I know of you will never work as electrician unless you go to school for two years. after that you have pass a apprentice lic test now you get work for a electrical contractor for 2000 hrs. under direct supervision. If you want journeyman lic. you need to work the 2000 hrs and take another state test that will take about three days. You still need to work for electrical contractor for five years before you can take the master lic. that test runs five days. Now you can get a contractors lic and work for yourself. That might have changed from the time I asked about it.
4. Your W2s could prove you worked for a company. Not the capacity same with your SS. you can get a print out of where you worked if the company paid SS. the workers comp ins. with the state will. The employer rates were determine by what you did for the company.
Edited 7/7/2005 4:27 am ET by fredsmart
Sometimes I just think that too much emphasis is placed on hours in an apprenticeship. With basically no carpentry skills to speak of when I started, I built my own 1500 square foot house from the ground up and boy was that a learning experience. I was able to do it because I bought books and studied on my own, plus,I stopped and took pictures of houses under construction when nobody was around. No doubt it was a lot of work but fun and I did it all without an apprenticeship.
So, I figure that in the electrical trade it is somewhat the same. How long does it really take to learn how to wire a switch or receptacle correctly ? It doesn't take a rocket scientist to look up how much support you must give for conduit or NM cable or how deep you have to bury underground cable. You just have to have the capability to study on you own. Is it really necessary to do thousands of hours of these repetitive tasks before being proficient? Don't think so !
I agree with you, somebody down the line got paid off.
Who is telling you that you can't take a local test ?
Indiana is kinda screwy with their requirements ! As far as
license / no license
It also occurs to me that even though you worked for an electrical contractor, if the shop did not use a formal, recognized apprenticeship, a State license is going to be hard to apply for . Even though Ind. doesn't require one, Mich. does.
If you pass a test, then you meet the requirements for that jurisdicton !
Some places will not allow you to take a test unless you bring in documentation of your work experience and apprenticeship. I guess I get ticked off because sometimes I feel that I learned much more on my own than from an apprenticeship,,,and I think that anyone should be allowed to take the test no matter how they acquired the knowledge. You shouldn't have to be a slave for a contractor for 8000 hours to be allowed to go out and start your own business. I've worked in a Visteon plant where even the journeyman electricians don't know what they should...............and they served these 8000 hour structured apprenticeships.
1) The electrician lobby isn't as powerful as the plumbers lobby, so the state has no requirements. Some Indiana localities, recognizing the absurdity, instituted their own.
2) Indiana is a conservative state at heart. Many localities don't see a need for government involvement. My sister once inquired for the name of a good plumber at the hardware store. The clerk replied, "This is Starke county. Every adult male is a plumber."
3) When a liscense is required, the means to it inevitably becomes a bizarre road. The people that will one day try to take the road have no lobby. But people already liscensed (or grandfathered in) have a stake in keeping competition out and in supplying themselves with cheap, dependable labor.
4) I have no idea.
It is my understanding that the Indiana legislature is actually looking at liscensing of electritions. If they pass that, that is the time to get the liscense (presumably they will be grandfathering in and it will never be easier), so study up!
Which Indiana locality do you live in? I understand that in Fort Wayne you can paint and lay carpet unregulated!
Rich Beckman
Another day, another tool.
I have run into this exact situation here in LaPorte county,I went to the courthouse to ask about ####elec. license , and the nice gal handed me an 8oo number to call, she didn't know who, what, or where that number was for,just that's what she was instructed to do ..... hey is RCA still in town ,or did they finally leave ?"
"hey is RCA still in town ,or did they finally leave ?"You mean Thompson Consumer Electronics. Thompson bought RCA a few years ago.The plant closed a year ago or so. 900 jobs.County will be recovering for awhile.A Wal-Mart distribution center is openning in a couple of years, 600 jobs. A Dollar General distribution center is openning next year, 400 jobs.But of course, these jobs won't pay nearly as well as Thompson did.Rich BeckmanAnother day, another tool.
I mean't to say Thomson..... what a shame"
I actually never thought about it coming down to politics, but that makes sense. I live in Wayne county. Certain towns in the county such as Richmond and Centerville require an electrical license but in the unincorporated areas..........none is required. In Henry county, right next door to the west, the county requies a license. In Fayette county to the south..........none required.
where is Wayne county?"
On the ohio/indiana border directly east of Indianapolis about 50 miles.
kinda south of Kokomo ? I understand your frustration, but W/O paperwork from a accredited training program it sounds like you are going a have an uphill battle with the examining boards I can't figure out why the towns won't let you test ! have you tried talking to an inspector ? "
Edited 7/7/2005 2:30 pm ET by maddog
I lived in Richmond for a year long ago. I was the manager of the Domino's Pizza next to Earlham College. My son was born in the Richmond hospital.My kids live just outside of Connersville.You worked in the Connersville Visteon plant?? My ex worked there for a few years. I believe she is now laid off, apparently permanently.Rich BeckmanAnother day, another tool.
Your ex is lucky if she is permanently laid off. The Connersville plant was a good place to work when it was FORD, but Connersville Visteon is a horrible place to work. Visteon just like most other big corporations and our government don't have any respect for working people and it is obvious. Just look at what is happening, our government is selling out its citizens, giving our jobs to other countries and strarving our people.
I probably bought pizzas from you a time or two!
My daughter was born in that same hospital.
> "This is Starke county. Every adult male is a plumber."
So they should change the name to Plumber County. ;-)
-- J.S.
it always comes down to politics!
here in our county ... there is licensing for plumbers.
about 50 or so years ago ... one guy ... a plumber ... decided to get into county politics. He also decided to turn his plumbing business over to his son.
My Dad knew the guy.
first act as a politician ... made it so plumbers either had to be licensed or grandfathered in. And to be grandfathered ... the company had to have so many years in business.
Guess what ... his son qualified!
turn of another century later ... every plumber has to be licensed ... all because one guy wanted his son to have a leg up on his competition.
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
It's tough sledding by any measure. Here's the FAQ for Texas: http://www.license.state.tx.us/electricians/elecfaq.htm#l2
1. State-level means bringing trade regulation/standards to the entire state, not just incorporated areas, and uniformly across all of the state--is usually the legislative "ideal."
2. In Texas, there is no place that an electrical license is not required; just certain jobs & person who don't need one. Which is s a big giant catch-22.
If only my word about experience, and taking the test were required, I could take and pass the exams for Architect; Irrigator; Journeyman Elec; Master Plumber (w/ gas cert), and Home Inspector right now. To pass Maste Elec, I'd need to study and more than a bit.
3. Yep, like most licensing rules, everyone who has a license pretty much has to have a licensed individual who will sign off on the experience of the person wanting the license.
4. Not in Texas, Each license requires a certain number of signed-off hours and the test to get the "next" license. Except for Electrical Contractor & Electrical Sign Contractor; there you must just employ at least on Master Electrician.
I had heard that the State Board of Licensing & Registration had looked at licensing framers, but gave that up for now. There's talk they want to start a "pilot" program for licensing insulation installers. The REM End-of-the-World-as-we-know-it will be if they try to license dray wall finishers, roofers, or concrete labor . . .
I found out that in California, they will classify you as a journeyman even if all you've ever done is work on your own property, and I think that is great, because I know that a person can work and study hard on their own and learn. An 8000 hour formal apprenticeship isn't the only way to learn.
You mentioned that you could pass the exam for Architect. About a year ago I had a little email war of words with the architecture board here in Indiana. You wouldn't believe the number of people who are architects and never went to a professional architecture school, although everywhere you look in the regulations it says you must have a degree in architecture. IT JUST AIN'T SO ! I questioned how this one person got his architecture license, after finding out that the person had a CIVIL ENGINEERING TECHNOLOGY degree. They never gave me an answer, they just sent me this big packet with all of the regulations.
never went to a professional architecture school, although everywhere you look in the regulations it says you must have a degree in architecture
NCARB, the National College of Architectural Review Boards, sets the national standards for all-fifty state reciprocal licensing. They established the professional degree requirement, which is part of an eight-year education/experience block (5 year bachelor's + 3; 4 year BS, 2 year MS + 2; and a previous 4 year acreditted degree + four years work).
None of that changed individual State licensing for Architects (mostly). Some States retained their own state-level licensing with differing sets of requirements (and wildly varying reciprocity rules, too). Some states, by virtue of state-mandated curricula, do not have (did not have) a specific degree in architecture. Those states will not require a named degree type, for their State licenses. (NCARB will have an "acreditted" degree plan in th College of Mines, or under Civil Engineering, or the like, to meet their requirements.)
So, yes, in different States, persons of different backgrounds can get licenses to practice; but only in that one state.
Want work one state over, take their test, too (this can be a 5-day, 9-12 test battery, with a $4-6000 price tag, not including room and board). Back in the 70's, VA & CA would not recognize a Texas archy license, so your "love me" wall wuld often sport a VA & CA license, since you could take their test (only) and get the fancy certificate. That was before Texas just switched its entire system to NCARB.
It's gotten better, the test in Texas can now be taken one section at a time (not all in a bunch over just 5 days in Ft Worth). You also only have to pony up the per-test fee (and not the entire $3790 as before). You do, however, have to jump through all of NCARB's IDP hhops first, though (a nice cheap $300 per year for that, too).
All a racket.
The "American Institute of Building Design," and it's sister/wife/cousin "Texas Institude of Building Design" (both down in Houston, IIRC) will sell you a spiffy stamp, with a number and everything (an autocad dxf of the stamp, too)--all you need is cash, and to be a wage slave of AIBD/TIBD member (think multi-level marketing, here).
I'm not sure I'd change it--but more out of fear any change I moght recommend might make it worse.Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
Well, finally someone posted some info that is less emotional and anecdotal, but actually factual.
The Archy's I work with (a couple are a bit arrogant, but competent), because of their training, are qualified to do structural calcs and design and provide the engineering where required unless flood plain issues, unstable soils or other geologic factors affect a structure's performance.
As I'm in a high seismic, high wind zone, working off a local archy's design and plans is often cost-effective, as opposed stock plans or plans from a designer in which case, the initial "savings" are usually gobbled up by an engineer who has to spend a bit of time calculating all the load paths and redrawing the whole plan set and making a big Simpson Strong-Tie shopping list.
********
Here in Oregon, the electrical licensing is a bit on the stiff side....originally a product of when Trade Unions ruled the market. But that being said, I tend to roll my eyes when I hear somebody claim Journeyman status because they've read a few books and wired a couple of houses. A professional electrician may do residential wiring, but may also do a lot of commercial or industrial....and in this day and age, programmable equipment in residential and commercial is becoming more common, and, discounting the low-end Radio-Shack type crap that folks may DYI, the good stuff has a learning curve.
I went through the Construction Millwright Apprenticeship back in the 70' and the classroom work and the OJT was quite intense at times....lot of old-timer mentors with a lot of tricks of the trade you don't find in books. So maybe I'm a little sensitive, but when I was managing Engineering and Maintenance Depts for a major Wood Products Co. in the late 70's and thru the 80's, I'd have to crew up occasionally, and waded through piles of "Journeyman Millwright" applications submitted by guys who'd taken a welding class in High school and really believed that was the big qualifier (which it certainly wasn't).
While the Bureaucracy and fees for trade licensing may seem silly to some, it has some valid history....sorry to say that a lot of good, solid vocational training has gone by the wayside in the last couple decades.
But that being said, I tend to roll my eyes when I hear somebody claim Journeyman status because they've read a few books and wired a couple of houses. You might roll your eyes in disbelief, but its true, some people simply don't need to be led around by a leash. I have encountered a few industrial electricians, that served an apprenticeship, that barely know the basics.......................but they are turned loose every day on 480 volt/3 phase equipment. They don't really understand the theoretical circuit analysis or the why, but they were taught step by step ( by apprenticeship),,,,,,,,put the black wire here, put the white wire there. It really scares me when I'm working with people like that; not knowing the why is dangerous.
And you are correct, electricians don't just wire residential,,,,,,some end up doing commercial or industrial. But most people don't understand that 3-phase commercial or industrial isn't really that complicated..............just different. It just requires a little more education. As far as programmable controllers go, they really make things easier instead of harder.
I just didn't realize how much I had learned on my own until after I took electrical engineering in college, where I learned a lot more.Don't get me wrong , I'm not against apprenticeships, but everyone can't get a formal apprenticeship position. I value the time I put in after high school, in my informal apprenticeship,when I was green and totally lacking any skills. If it had not been for the tolerance and encouragement of my first employer, I wouldn't know what I know today. AS a matter of fact, my informal apprenticeship even though it was in another field, probably had a lot to do with my success building my own house.
There are always exceptions and some people successfully learn on their own....and there are tradesmen who drifted through their apprenticeships somehow and will always perform at a marginal level.
But most of the Journeymen sparkies I have worked with DO understand theory, CAN troubleshoot, can work with both digital (easy) AND analog (difficult) systems, CAN run dead-on conduit, CAN calculate circuit parameters (large and small), DO work efficiently like the professionals they are.
Stick around this site for awhile and some of the DYI questions about home wiring and circuitry that pop up will scare the pee-waddin' out of you.
uh-oh, now you've done it !"
Dude,
Some of your statements are simply ridiculous.Your view that someone can learn out of a book what others spend thousands of hours being taught by skilled journeymen on the job is absurd.And for you to suggest that 3 phase commercial/industrial power installations aren't complicated, "just different" tells me exactly how little you actually know.Nailing up boxes for the neighbor's brother-in-law in an "informal apprenticeship" doesn't teach you $hit.THAT's why they have licensing requirements.
Barry
well, you have made your feelings known about apprenticeships, I would have thought someone as bright and gifted as yourself
would not have had a problem getting in !
oh,thats right, you don't need to be led on a leash, well you know what bucko?
Just because you have seen a few folks in a car plant whom you think don't know their #### from their shoelace, doesn't mean you weren't surrounded by good mechanics !
you think you know EVERYTHING because of your informal training, some college and a few books?I just have one question for you;
What is the polarity of the tach feedback with relation to the armature on a 200 hp shunt wound conveyor motor and why?
"
Its all a money situation. Most states that I know of have a license requirment for most major counties. {I live in Md.]. It comes down to your local area. they make the rules. For a plumbing license in Md. it takes 7000 hours on the job. electrical is similar. Sorry I'm not too positive. Luck with your quest.
I believe that you have asked the four unanswerable questions, or put another way, if you can answer those four questions you are probably on the short list for the position as the next Pope!
Lic and permitting will be made reasonable two days before the end of the earth.