1. I like to replace old outlet but there are only hot and neutral wires. The house is wired with BX, but for this outlet, a hole was cut into a wood panel wall and there are only two wires without the ground. I can’t find out where this connection was made. Therefore, I’d like to know if I can connect a GFCI outlet to these wires without the ground, and will this outlet provide ground (or the protection) to other outlets plugged into the GFCI?
2. I think I connected hot and neutral wires from 2 separate circuits. Hot to hot and neutral to neutral and pigtail to an outlet. The outlet works and breakers have not tripped. Tomorrow, I will open the box and check the circuits and if this is right, break off the tabs on the outlet. However, the question for today is: an electrician who saw this said that there is a “backfeed” somewhere but did not solve the problem at the time. What is a backfeed? If I did connect 2 separate circuits together, shouldn’t it trip the breakers?
Thank you all for any advice you can give.
Replies
1. Is this a bootleg receptacle, just screwed into the paneling with no box? It sort of sounds like that from your description. There are code violations, and there are real bad code violations. If it's what I think, it's a real bad violation.
2. A backfeed is connecting the hots of two circuits on the same leg together. Turn one breaker of the two off, and if nothing goes off, that's what you have. It won't trip the breakers if they're on the same leg, but it would instantly trip at least one if they were on opposite legs. This, too, is a very bad thing. If you tie two 20 amp circuits together like that, you could get up to 40 amps on #12 wire without tripping a breaker.
With electricity, it's not a good idea to try to fix this or that little thing here and there. It only compounds the wierd stuff that others may have done to the house in the past. Symptoms one place can be the result of things done wrong in other parts of the house.
The best thing is bright and early one morning, turn off all the power, take the covers off all the boxes, trace where everything goes, draw some diagrams, and make sense of it all. You should probably get a good book on residential wiring and read it first, or get your electrician to untangle the mess for you.
-- J.S.
I like to thank all replies here. It does seem like I have a bootleg outlet. I have talked to others and at the end I decided to provide a ground for this outlet. Because this bootleg lines are behind a wood panel, I can't really take a look without destroying the panel that can't be replaced. But switches are located above this in a box which I believe is grounded (I can see the ends of the BX). I think I can fish a line from the box to the hole where the outlet is.
As to the backfeed connections, now that I realize what I might have done, the solution also seems to be simple, just break the middle tabs on the outlet. I get these inspirations about one every year, and believe it or not, I do think sometimes I get lucky and avoid disasters. It is also true that more I learn, more cautious I get. Anyway, thanks to everybody for the advices.
"...sometimes I get lucky and avoid disasters."
If there was only one neutral, it would be a multi-wire branch circuit, supplying more than one device on the same yoke, and would require the CB handles be tied, or a two-pole breaker, to comply with 210-4(b). But two neutrals or one, the hazard of getting shocked by a live terminal when someone thinks the power was removed by opening the breaker for the other (and not actually testing before touching) remains the same.
It would, IMHO, be more reasonable to disconnect the second cable feeding the receptacle at it's source (some other device, probably), and feed the receptacle in question from just one of the existing circuits only.
I also think you need to bring back the electrician and clean this up properly. He/she would have tools for tracing these cables through the walls, allowing him/her to make short work of the problem, assuming (bad word) there aren't any other bear traps hidden somewhere. Be safe.Be seeing you...
> It is also true that more I learn, more cautious I get.
So get a good book -- I've heard good things about Rex Cauldwell's book -- and read it at least twice. Then come back here and ask questions about the information in the book. It sounds like learning will be a very good thing for you.
-- J.S.
"I'd like to know if I can connect a GFCI outlet to these wires without the ground"
in a word - No.
no a gfi works off a ground . no ground then no gfi.is the wire romex or bx.. plastic or metal armour.
no a gfi works off a ground . no ground then no gfi.is the wire romex or bx.. plastic or metal armour.
A GFI does not need a ground._______________________
"I may have said the same thing before... But my explanation, I am sure, will always be different." Oscar Wilde
This is completely incorrect. The GFCI device does not need to be grounded in order to function. All it needs is a current imbalance from hot to neutral.
Bob
yes the outlet will work ,but you have to have a ground. gfi= ground fault no ground no fault.!!!!
No, the GFCI will work without a ground.
The GFCI has a transformer that is wound with the hot lead and the neutral lead in shuch a way so they will cancel if the current is equal. If the currents are not equal, ie a ground fault" then it will trip.
What your not catching here is that "ground" is not just the effect produced by a ground wire. All the way back at the transformer, in almost all residential systems, the center of the windings are grounded by way of a system of ground rods. Usually at every other power pole. This means that the earth itself and anything in electrical contact with the earth is grounded as far as the system is concerned.
The ground/neutral are the same thing, electrically, until the point of first disconnect. The wiring then splits off to create separate ground, groundING, and neutral, groundED, systems. Contrary to some these two parallel wires do two completely different jobs. One carries the unbalanced load the other promotes the timely tripping of circuit breakers during a wiring fault and holds exposed parts at ground potential.
All this means that there are grounded surfaces nearly everywhere. Concrete slabs, any plumbing, gas lines are all grounded. Even damp plaster walls can be good grounds in some cases. Should you come into contact with a current source, a defective blow drier for example, and also be grounded, leaning on your sink, you would receive a shock. The current would be traveling through you to the plumbing, more likely if it is metallic piping, and on to the best sink back to the neutral/ground at the transformer.
A GFI works by electrically comparing the current flowing out on the hot conductor and what is coming back on the neutral. Notice a grounding conductor has nothing to do with this. Most blow driers have two wire cords that lack a ground wire. If current was leaking out of the blow drier and some of it passing through you to the plumbing an amount of current, less the amount traveling through the plumbing, would be returning to the GFI receptacle.
If everything works as planned the GFI would sense the difference in the current going out and the amount of current coming back and trip in a few milliseconds. You might get a tingle but the likelihood of you getting a fatal shock are greatly reduced.
Don't feel bad. Most people don't understand what GFIs actually do. Even the TV show CSI, an otherwise well researched show, got it wrong in a show featuring a construction worker set up to die by a person who removed a ground connection and modified a power tool to leak current. I hope this illuminates the issue to some extent.
Thanks for the edumacation. :)
I now understand that a GFI does not need a ground to do its thing. Along those lines, is it OK to install a duplex outlet (GFI or regular) with a ground slot (three hole vs two) when the outlet is not wired with a ground? or does the nutural cover you?
Inquiring minds want to know.
A standard three-hole outlet must be grounded. It is not acceptable to bootleg a ground from the neutral.
A GFCI three-hole outlet may be installed on a two-wire ungrounded circuit.
Bob
A few more details. A standard 3 prong outlet can be installed on an ungrounded circuit PROVIDED it is protected by an upstrain GFCI outlet or breaker.
Also any GFCI outlets or ungrounded outlets downstream from a GFCI have to be marked as ungrounded.
A few more details. A standard 3 prong outlet can be installed on an ungrounded circuit PROVIDED it is protected by an upstrain GFCI outlet or breaker.
Also any GFCI outlets or ungrounded outlets downstream from a GFCI have to be marked as ungrounded.
Actually, downstream outlets must be marked "GFCI Protected-No Equipment Ground", as I noted in message number 8 of this thread.
Bob
Go catch on the requirement for grounded receptacles needing connection downstream from a GFCI when supplied from an ungrounded circuit. Previous response may have led the sheep astray.
yes the outlet will work ,but you have to have a ground. gfi= ground fault no ground no fault.!!!!
That is just plain wrong.
A GFCI device senses the current in the hot and neutral wires. When the current in the two wires is equal, all is well. However, when the current flows in the black wire and out through you, the GFCI device senses the that the current flow is unequal, and it trips. The grounding wire has nothing to do with the function of the device.
You can test this for yourself. Pull one of your GFCI outlets out of its box, disconnect the grounding wire, plug a night light in it, and push the test button.
DO NOT attempt this test with one of those little three-light testers. The GFCI device doesn't require a ground, but the tester won't work unless the outlet is grounded.
Bob
well thanks for the schooling. i know the code states you can use a gfi if ,if an ungrounded system exists. this problem was bx with no box, and it has a ground. so i should be utilized. the nuetral is grounded at the panel and does the same at the device.also it sounded like there was a branch circuit being used. and u cant use a gfi on a branch circuit.well gotta go thanks again for the tach on the gfi i am always lookin to learn
i seen u said it was bx. ok u need a metal box. the 2 wires need to be clamped to the box. then put a pig tail off the back off the box and that will be your ground. the armour on bx is the ground. dont disconnect or rearrange anything in your house .if u dont know what your doing u can make alot of probllems for yourself.
You certainly are allowed to install a GFCI outlet on an ungrounded system. The outlet must be labeled "No Equipment Ground". All downstream outlets must be labeled "GFCI Protected-No Equipment Ground"
Bob
John said it very well. You were lucky this time not to trip a breaker because you connected two hot to the same leg. Breakers are safety devices not diagnostic devices.
Tom
I've wrestled with the BX many times in my old house. Problem with using the bx as a ground is thast it is only as good a ground as the connections back to the main panel. The BX is split and attached to boxes throughout your house ans all it takes is a loose connection and the ground is not worth much.
Here is a thought. Pull up as much slack as you can find in the BX and then cut back the sheathing a bit (4 or 5 " will do). Inside might be a galvanized wire that is your ground. (If it is old stuff then there will be no extra wire)
Then again, can you pull new BX? I assume it is in a place you can't run more wire but if there is a chance run some new wire.
Thank you and all others for this discusssion. This bootleg line is not BX. The two lines are old cloth wrapped, but color identified, lines connected to hot and neutral sources somewhere behind the wood panel. I won't be able to protect these lines like with BX or even Romex. I am hoping to provide ground from the switch box located above.
Can you find where the old two-wire enters behind the wall so it can be replaced by new wire? If on first floor, there is likely a penetration up that wall from the basement, or from the attic. You mention running a ground wire from the switches to the receptacle, but my understanding is that the ground wire for a box must run with the current carrying wires to that box. That way you can't have the ground disconnected w/o likely having the others disconnected.
IMHO, the best way to rectify this situation is to kill power and cut a hole for an "old work" style single gang box. I have found that the brown phenolic ones work extremely well when a hole with tight fit is cut in the wall. Then locate the wire of interest, and either use it to pull new wire (if not stapled) or cut it off at the service panel and run a new wire to the outlet. The reason you are where you are now is because someone in the past did a half a$$ job, and you owe it to yourself to fix it right if you are going to fix it at all.
Since your wires are not in an electrical box. You may want to look for a remodlers box, drywall box, probably other names. It's a plastic box that has two wings that fold up when you tighten screws in the corners of the box. These wings tighten against the back side of the wall surface. These allow you to attatch a box by clamping it to the drywall or other wall surface.
Work great if there isn't a stud or something solid there to attatch to. Since your wire is already there, you don't get to choose location. I've used these in both single and double boxes. Usually less then $2.
Oh, and all the advice to pull new wire if possible, sounds like good advice.
Good luck.
Billy