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Discussion Forum

Expensive beam cut a foot short!

cityhix | Posted in General Discussion on April 5, 2003 02:38am

Today a coworker cut a ridge beam a foot short.  The beam is 30′ long and made up of three 16 inch deep LVLs bolted together.  I was not on site but apparently three carpenters were involved in measuring and checking the length but this fellow took responsibility.  He immediately called the boss who is out of town and fessed up.  The boss gave him an earful and told him to get the #*!*#! off the site.  He went to the office and tore up his Friday paycheck to make up for lost labor in dealing with procuring and assembling a new beam and wrote the company a check for $600 to cover the cost of the new LVLs.  The crew was able to get new material, reschedule the crane and, at the end of the day, had the beam in the air.  Luckily, this guy is still flying high because he is taking next week off to get married but who knows if he’ll have a job when he gets back.  I figure he handled it in the best possible way, I hope the boss will see that and chock it up as a learning experience.  Ever had a similar experience and how was it handled?


Edited 4/4/2003 8:27:26 PM ET by CITYHIX

Reply

Replies

  1. User avater
    BossHog | Apr 05, 2003 03:01am | #1

    Sounds to me like the boss over reacted. Everybody makes mistakes. Not everybody lives up to 'em.

    LVL's can be returned. Worst case, you might lose a restocking fee and the lost re-sellable length of the beam, but it certainly won't cost $600. I can tell you I've personally replaced LVLs and glulams that people have cut wrong. Suppliers are used to dealing with this.

    BTW - Brak your posts up into paragraphs, and they'll be easier to read...........

    There is absolutely no substitute for a genuine lack of preparation.

    1. cityhix | Apr 05, 2003 03:21am | #4

      Will

      do. :)

  2. MrsReese | Apr 05, 2003 03:12am | #2

    That's a wonderful reaction to a mistake! If that guy DOESN'T have a job when he gets back from his honeymoon, he should just go ahead and start his own company. He has what it takes. An attitude of responsibity is harder to come by than a 30' LVL beam, that's for sure!

    I think the boss should write that guy a new Friday paycheck, though, and he should give him back the $600. I think that's the boss's responsibility. He gets to write it off his taxes.

    I remember one day when I was a kid working at my dad's metal building business after school. We were in the office by a window. Just outside in the parking lot a worker was trying to raise the flat bed dump truck, but he forgot to take out the pin thing up front. My dad stood there and watched the steel beam of the bed bend like a garden hose. He just put down what he was holding, kinda sighed and shook his head just one time, and walked out the door calmly. By this time the guy had stopped the motor and knew he had messed something up. I watched my dad politely show the man the thing up front he forgot to undo, and then he turned around and came back in. I asked him what happened and he said "He just destroyed a $xxxx truck bed," and he went back to his office. Probably to eat some Tums. I don't know if he fired that guy or not, but I know for sure he didn't make him pay for the truck!

    That's where I got my idea of how the boss is supposed to act. I suppose my only impression of how employees act is that they tear stuff up and it's the boss's problem to solve! Must be why I choose to be my only employee. I get to tear stuff up AND fix it.

    So I want to know, did the guy take that too-short beam with him after he paid for it? It's his now! He could build his new wife one hell of a coffee table out of that!

  3. GHR | Apr 05, 2003 03:18am | #3

    Yeh ...

    Life happens.

    Keep the beam around. someone can use it. (With the bolt holes in I would not try to return it.)

    1. pm22 | Apr 05, 2003 03:38am | #6

      Can't you make the roof a foot shorter? Maybe get a come-along up there between the two gable ends and crank them togethera foot?

      The boss could give him the beam as a wedding present [and perhaps inspiration].

      ~Peter

      Think outside the box but don't step off the plank.

  4. Piffin | Apr 05, 2003 03:35am | #5

    That dude has whay it takes to be labeled 'HERO'!

    The way I learned about that kind of thing was from something that happened to me.

    I was on a job where there was a tight scehdule and something came up that required a decision immediately to keep it all proceeding on time and kleep the subs from running off to other jobs. I made the call and everyone else was scared to follow through. I had no idea what decision the owner would have made if he were on site but I knew it was important to be finished by certain date and he was in Brazil or Hong Kong or someplace unreachable. I told everybody, "If he doesn't like it, Tell him that I was the one who made the decision1"

    We got finished in time and as it turned out, he disagreed with the decision that I made.

    But the next year, he had an even bigger job and he specifically demanded that I be the lead to head up the crew. He said that he wanted that guy who knows how to make decisions and take responsibility! Thjat same owner has gone on to found his own company with two hundred people under him. He knows management and people. I'll bet that he would be one to turn around and give that same carpenter a $1200 bonus at end of job.

    BTW, I agree fully that he owns that beam but that the boss could use it elsewhere. He over-reacted! my God! I cut a piece an inch too short today!

    .

    Excellence is its own reward!

    1. User avater
      ProDek | Apr 05, 2003 08:18pm | #20

      I cut a piece an inch too short today!

      Man Piffin, only today? :-)

      I hate it when that happens.

      I never have the right tool at the jobsite.

      I always leave the boardstretcher at home.................

      Bob

      "Rather be a hammer than a nail"

      1. wallyo | Apr 05, 2003 09:04pm | #21

        My uncle Ted had a sign hanging in his polish deli in Bayonne NJ.

        "When I do something wrong every one remembers,

        When I do something right every one forgets. "

        Even though I agree that the boss over reacted and the guy was the only one that had the guts to take the  blame.  There were other people measuring, they were not fired!

        This saying so much sums up the way people in bussiness react.  This man may have saved the owner of the bussiness ten to a hundred times the dollars in materials and time by doing everything right and efficiently then what the beam cost but all the Boss remembers is the negative.

        At the end of the week Bosses need to sit down and count the good that people do!!!

        By name, come up with ten people who  actually saved lives and ten people who took a life. The negitive people are easy to come up with by name aren't they.

      2. Piffin | Apr 05, 2003 09:26pm | #22

        LOL

        I made up for it by cutting another piece too long. Unfortunately, it was the hardest sheet to fit into place. I wrestled with it up under and around and knocked some stuff over and then realized it was too long to fit so I had to wrestle it all the way back around thru over and under to get back to the saw bench again.

        Then it was time for some deep breathing exercises. Called it some names.

        [btw- I have a new bad name for things that go wrong on the job. I can cuss without anyone knowing I am upset. I just mutter, "bobcat"]

        ;).

        Excellence is its own reward!

    2. andybuildz | Apr 06, 2003 10:06pm | #43

      The job I just finished inside bathroom.etc etc and outside reroof on the addition to the left.

      No ridge beam...circa:1711 and on the water always in pretty intense weather as well.

      Be ridgeless

                   Namaste

                             andy...PS...I never said no collar ties.the question originally was.."why cant one join two pieces of ridge beam together"?

      PSS..sorry bout the size of the pics.I'll figure it out eventually

       

      "Understanding yourself is like trying to bite your own teeth"

      Alan Watts

      http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM

      Edited 4/6/2003 3:08:01 PM ET by Andy Clifford(Andybuildz)

  5. User avater
    JeffBuck | Apr 05, 2003 03:55am | #7

    I'd say both over reacted.

    What's with the boss....his first day in construction?

    Honest mistakes happen..

    The guy did good by owning up to it...but over reacted with the paycheck trick. Does he get paid to be perfect? His decision to make...but I'd say that and buying the materials is way over board.

    The boss hired him. The boss left him in a position to maybe make a mistake.

    It's the companies problem.....not the labors. If it happens too many times..you pay the guy then fire him.

    I'm guessing it's illegal to with hold the pay anyway.

    I remember when I cut a fancy new fiberglass column 10" too short. Me and the helper both read the first measurement..repeated it..then both watched as I marked the column too short.

    At least I made a nice clean cut to my mark!

    Set it on the porch.....we both just about sh!t.

    Called the lead from the other side of the house.....

    he just took a look and called the lumber yard to see how fast we could get another one. That's when I remembered the flex trim that was to wrap the column "about" 8" from the top.......it went on at 10".

    glued it back and tacked on the hide-a-trim.

    Nice to know though that a hiss fit wasn't to be thrown. Just a coupla adults that realized mistakes happen and ya gotta spend money to build stuff.

    Never any doubt about my pay.

    Later while working with the same company..I watched as 2 guys dropped a set of french doors from the deck. Same deal....well planned.....one of them lost their footing......other guy lost his grip.....door went to pieces.

    Project manager saw it all happen...just said good thing no one was hurt...and looks like the profit margin just shrank on this one. Better hurry up on the siding so the job stays on the plus side. Then...called the lumber yard to see how quick they could get another door delivered.

    No yelling.....no crying.....no 12 yr old girl antics.

    Those leads/managers had a theory...usually lakes more time to yell about something than it does to fix it......and either fire someone or work with them. No yelling involved.

    Most of the guys in the field were worked together pretty well....most seemed to have the same thoughts.....Don't expect to yell at me without getting punched in the face.

    Kinda a rough philosphy....but stuff got built quicked and better without all the theatrics.

    Jeff

    Buck Construction   Pittsburgh,PA

     Fine Carpentery.....While U Waite                  

    1. 4Lorn1 | Apr 05, 2003 05:02am | #8

      Those LVLs make dandy bench tops. I got the cut off from a job, a 6' length of 6" by 24" beam heavy and solid, and plan to make a wood working bench out of it. One day...

  6. Texfan | Apr 05, 2003 05:07am | #9

    Sounds like a standup guy! The only perfect person I know of walked on water. ...........I would have pulled out my lumberstretcher. I keep it right beside my skyhook.

  7. Bruce | Apr 05, 2003 05:50am | #10

    Did the same thing myself on a glulam working for my first boss.  Told him about it.  He says, "Well, I guess I'd better get another one."

    What a prince.  I won't forget working for a guy like that.

    Formerly BEMW at The High Desert Group LLC

  8. CAGIV | Apr 05, 2003 06:21am | #11

    I did a similar thing working for a guy about 3 years ago.  Cutting roof rafters, I cut them all short, I only made it through about half of them, before the first one went up and it didn't fit.

    Boss yelled down told me to stop and come up, so I get up there and pull out the piece of paper he gave me with the dimensions, and quickly realized I missread what he wrote and didnt double check.

    So about 20 2x10x20' were all shot plus labor wasted while we waited for new material.  I felt horrable and offered like your friend to take at least the material out of my paycheck.

    Boss just laughed and said we can use the lumber somewhere sometime, and sh!t happens, Said he was "due" for such a screw up and they seem to happen about once every 6 months or so.

    Bottom line people screw up occasionaly, and I think the boss probably was just pissed, maybe he will calm down if not he's an ashole.  It's not the first time someone has cut something expensive to short, and it won't be the last. 

    View ImageGo Jayhawks
  9. fdampier5 | Apr 05, 2003 06:39am | #12

    Building my timber frame I twice made a mistake like that.  I fired my self both times and then went and   found other uses for the too short beams.. I wisely ordered two extra beams so I felt pretty decent. 

      The guy learned and did the right thing.. his boss should promote him or at least send a very decent wedding gift..

    1. PhillGiles | Apr 05, 2003 08:49am | #14

      Certainly his boss hasn't fully thought through the long-range consequences of firing this employee and how it will shift dynamics within the rest of his crew. If you let someone go because they just aren't working out, particularly if you've gone out of your way to help them fit; then the remaining employees will see you as being fair, but firm: you let him go on behalf of everyone, you are the leader. If you fire someone (see, different words) in a fit of anger, then the remaining employees will see you as untrustworthy - the legend of this firing will evolve until "he was fired for telling the boss the truth", you become someone who reacts instead of leading. Legends tend to take on a life of their own, they spread and will never go away; "haunt" is the word that comes to mind. .

      Phill Giles

      The Unionville Woodwright

      Unionville, Ontario

  10. hasbeen | Apr 05, 2003 08:24am | #13

    Knock on wood...  I haven't cut anything quite that expesive to short, yet.  Make mistakes on a regular basis though (you can verify that with any of the liberal minded sorts who follow the political threads on this forum!)

    I knew a guy who was three years the lead man for a framing crew.  One day he cut a garage door header a foot too short.  He picked up his tools and walked off the job.  Said he knew his boss well enough to know......  He was right.  The owner made a point of telling the rest of the crew that they'd better do the same under the same circumstance. 

    Some jobs are much better to lose, than to have!

    I was working on the Iowa State University campus during the building of the seed research lab in 1976.  When they laid out the footers for the steel structure a laborer "cut" a foot on the dumb end of the tape ----  compounded through a series of measurements.  No one checked the overall measurement and the mistake wasn't caught until the steel trusses were up and they went to set the girders.  OOOh boy!  I was mighty glad that I was working on the meat research lab a block away.

    Many of the guys working there said that the on campus scenery was some of the finest anywhere!  ;)

    It doesn't matter how fast you get there, it just matters that you go in the right direction.

    1. DougU | Apr 06, 2003 06:54am | #38

      Hasbeen

      I worked on the ISU campus the summer of 1975, cant recall what building but I do recall the scenery that you referred  to, worked for a company out of Marshaltown, Mueller Construction, being 20 years old it made for one of the better summers I have ever worked, still don't know how anything ever got done, or how it got done right.

      I think I recall you being from Ia?

      Ah the memories.

      Doug

      1. hasbeen | Apr 07, 2003 12:15am | #44

        Yup.  Lived in Indianola, Des Moines, Kelley, West Bend, Grand Junction and Sigourney before moving west in '79.

        I worked for Story Constuction out of Ames (or was it Nevada, not sure.....) on the Meat Research Lab on a concrete crew.  Working on campus.......some people think corn-fed is the best!

        Where are you?

        Joe Wintersieck  (Hasbeen)It doesn't matter how fast you get there, it just matters that you go in the right direction.

        1. DougU | Apr 07, 2003 07:19am | #47

          Joe

          In Cedar Rapids, grew up near Tama, not to far from Ames, In a week will live in Austin TX.

          Wife took a good job there and I dont know what I'll do yet, sure theres some construction in the area.

          Doug

          1. hasbeen | Apr 07, 2003 07:29am | #48

            Best wishes with your move.  I here that Austin's a nice town!

            When it gets a little hot in the summer, remember that southern Colorado is the closest cool weather!Any jackass can kick down a barn, but it takes a carpenter to build one.

  11. Nails | Apr 05, 2003 03:22pm | #15

    C....Just a thought ...would it have been possible to get one of those guys that "drive a train " to give give you some quick specs to unbolt the three lvl's and use them with additional lvls to extend the beam by lacing them together or maybe a fourth added to salvage some of the lvls. I have made similar mistakes and thought about it for years and the only conclusion I came up with was that I read the tape numbers upside down and we all have a tendency to read the tape from left to right and some how the "brain housing group" causes the pencil to go the wrong way .



    Edited 4/5/2003 8:30:02 AM ET by nails

  12. RussellAssoc | Apr 05, 2003 04:12pm | #16

       Sounds like the carpenter is of considerable more value than the LVL.  If the boss is in business at all, incorporate the LVL's in the next couple of jobs, even if you have to cut them up for headers.  Spread the cost out to the new work, which will hardly cause a ripple, and wallah, mistake taken care of, valuable employee retained.  Oh, give the guy his money and pay back.

  13. mikeys | Apr 05, 2003 04:29pm | #17

    I've heard that there's only been one perfect carpenter and they crucified Him.

    1. 4Lorn1 | Apr 05, 2003 05:42pm | #18

      The only tradesman who hasn't made any mistakes is the one who hasn't done anything. IMHO half of most trades is dealing with the unexpected and learning tactics for masking or blending in rough spots. Anyone can handle a job when everything falls in place. The test of a workman is how gracefully they handle difficult, unexpected situations and errors.

      I have seen boss' virtually stop production by firing or seriously upbraiding well intentioned and normally effective people who make mistakes. The remaining crew spend never ending hours checking and rechecking details for fear of making a mistake. Fewer errors but little work gets done.

      At least once I have seen a boss a boss respond to his self imposed crews shyness by firing people for lack of production. After this the crew was both slow and demoralized. In the end he laid off, he had a hint he had caused the problem and was a relatively nice guy, the remaining few and had to start from scratch with a new crew.

      A terrible waste of construction talent and many hours of training and grooming. After six months the new crew was just starting to gel and approach the effectiveness of the original one. The contractor's reputation, among both potential customers and workers, also took a hit. It's tough being boss.

      1. cityhix | Apr 05, 2003 05:56pm | #19

        To the boss's credit, he is known to be a fair and exceptionally level headed guy to work for.   Not to mention that he has had a string of projects that netted little or no profit.  Things are looking a little rough right now and he may have just had one too many bits of bad news.  I suspect that on Monday cooler heads will prevail, the paycheck and $600 will be returned.   The offending beam cutter wants too be sure that the previous level of trust will be there.  I hope that the boss will see the amount of integrity this guy has and realize that he needs to keep him around.  I will pass on some of these kind comments to the carpenter.

        1. HammerHarry | Apr 06, 2003 03:36am | #33

          I used to work for a lunatic who would scream and break things (telephones, windows) all the time over nothing.  A co-worker left to run a repair shop, and during his first week, one of the machinists made a part wrong, and wasted a lot of time and money.  My ex-coworker's response was to buy the guy a new set of calipers, and show him how to use them!  He said he learned a lot from our tyrant, one of which was how NOT to be a boss.

  14. MajorWool | Apr 05, 2003 10:30pm | #23

    The only way to not make mistakes is to not do anything. But at least make new mistakes. ;-)

    1. User avater
      IMERC | Apr 06, 2003 01:27am | #28

      Go ahead make the / a / any mistake. Remember the mistake. Don't bother making the same mistake for a second time...

      THERE ARE SO MANY NEW ONES TO GIVE A TRY...

      1. andybuildz | Apr 06, 2003 01:40am | #29

        IMERG

                We became good at what we do because of mistakes that we've made and countless sleepless nights thinking about how to correct them.

        Its those that dont think about it or that sleep too well that should become politicians.

        Be super caring

                         Namaste

                                    andy 

        "Understanding yourself is like trying to bite your own teeth"

        Alan Watts

        http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM

  15. migraine | Apr 05, 2003 10:43pm | #24

    The boss should not deduct any money from his check or make him pay for any thing.  There should be enough money in any job allowed for this type of mistake.  Plus, that is why "profit" or "overhead" is included in your estimate.  If the guy made the mistake, do you think that he should pay at his hourly pay scale or the bosses hourly Pay scale that he charges the client?

    22 years ago I was helping 3 others remove some stained glass panel out of the bosses pickup truck.  In my opinion, one of the other guys pulled too soon and I lost my balance and to prevent from falling, I placed my foot forward and stepped on one of the other panels and broke about 5 pieces of stained glass about 8" from the edge.  My boss had a fit and told me that I was going to pay for it out of my check and obliged.  It cost $450.00 to fix the panel and I made $10.00 per hour.  My boss said that I could work it off on the weekends and/or take 10 hours out of my check for the next month or so.  The glass shop charged $45.00 per hour.   My boss had me make the  frames for the glass guy that were part of the trade at my $10.00 per hour.  I found out 2 weeks later that the glass guy and my boss made a "trade" in which they agreed to do 10 hours work for each other and the debt would be "even".   This was only found out because I was picking up the glass and delivering the frames to the glass guy.  We started talking and the glass guy made the comment that that was an expensive weekend for me.  Even the glass was not happy on how my boss had acted.  I must have had a discussion with my boss because the following week, my boss told me I would need to pay any thing else because " the glass guy wasn't going to charge anything for the repair.  I quit the same day.   A year later, while working for another contractor, the glass guy showed up on the same job and told me that he told my boss that if he was going to make me pay for any of the repairs, he was not going to do any of the other works that my old boss needed on the other panels that had damage in them.  We have worked together on jobs for the last 20 years.  I refer him and he refers me.  My old boss has not done work with him since that project.

    This was the experience that taught me what not to do to my employees when they make a mistake.   

    1. Piffin | Apr 05, 2003 11:13pm | #25

      If I understand the 'accident' you described, it was caused by whoever the #### was that placed the stained glass horixontal where it could be stepped on in the first place. Glass should always be stored and shipped in a vertical position.

      Whoever placed it that way [your boss himself?] was asking to find it broken..

      Excellence is its own reward!

      1. scotcrpntr | Apr 06, 2003 12:15am | #26

        I tell my guys, make mistakes fast, make the correction fast.  If we went slow enough to never make mistakes, we'd never make money...just try not to make the same mistake twice and don't go so fast you endanger your self.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   that said, i vaguely remember hurrying to fix a mistake, and just making the same mistake over again. Must be blocking the bad memories...

        I'm also the guy who, in another thread, admitted to shooting myself four times....

    2. User avater
      BillHartmann | Apr 06, 2003 06:11am | #36

      BTW, I believe that in most states it is illegal to require the employee to pay for this.

      I know that is in the case of a shortage in the cash drawer.

      You can always fire them and if you have any proof that it was theft then you can have them arrested.

      But you can make them pay for the losses. I think that it is the same in this case.

  16. andybuildz | Apr 06, 2003 01:12am | #27

    Just out of curiosty......if its a ridge beam....its not bearing any load really.

    I've seen ridge beams set in two pieces for one reason or another. Why couldnt it be spliced together?

    As for me? I've never made a mistake

    Just errors...lol...espeshally in spelling.

    The boss sounds like he had PMS that day or possibly never made a mistake himself.

    I personally have had plenty of guys that worked for me make mistakes and I chaulk it up to the ways of this business.or any biz for that matter. Its when someone thats in the wrong argues with me or when someone constantly makes those kinda mistakes that they have to hit the road.

    By the way,,,,,you arent on Long Island in NY are you? I have a job for this guy when he gets back from his honeymoon

    PS....one other thought....Architects....I had a real good archy that I still use make a three inch mistake in an I-beam in the foundation of my house to carry a bearing wall above.....Totally F-ed me up through out the entire job from stairs to window placements to leaders.....Check out my website below under " front projects"and look at the leader on the left in front of the oval window..then the one on the right...and the doggy dormers.not sure if its clear in the pix but...hey...shid happens! Work it out

    BE an honest guy ( gotta love it)

                                NAmaste

                                          andy

     

    "Understanding yourself is like trying to bite your own teeth"

    Alan Watts


    http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM



    Edited 4/5/2003 6:16:25 PM ET by Andy Clifford(Andybuildz)



    Edited 4/5/2003 6:17:36 PM ET by Andy Clifford(Andybuildz)

    1. Piffin | Apr 06, 2003 03:25am | #31

      Andy! BEAM you up!

      Where have you been man, in all the threads about ridge BEAMs???????

      I'm now gonna go PMS on you man!

      If it is a BEAM it is a BEAM. A BEAM by nature and definition carrys a load. That is why it is there. It is engineered to hold the load. It needs to be built the way it's engineered.

      It is not a ridge board he is describing here, which is just a nailer. It is a ridge BEAM!

      OK, now you've got you mistake out of the way for this week. You can relax now.

      ;).

      Excellence is its own reward!

      1. andybuildz | Apr 06, 2003 04:07am | #34

        Piff

              Am I missing something here dude? A ridge beam....the beam that we butt the roof rafters to at the PEAK? That basically butt one another......what am I missing? Must be the last glass of Chardonney I reckon....I always thought the birdsmouth end on dem plates was da bearing end....whatta I know.I better go back to all the houses I built..oiy

        PS....there are no ridge beams in houses the age of mine (maybe thats where I get that misconception).....the roof rafters are pegged to one another at the peak.

        Be Friday night

                          Namaste

                                         andy

         

        "Understanding yourself is like trying to bite your own teeth"

        Alan Watts

        http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM

        Edited 4/5/2003 8:09:59 PM ET by Andy Clifford(Andybuildz)

        Edited 4/5/2003 8:12:31 PM ET by Andy Clifford(Andybuildz)

        1. Piffin | Apr 06, 2003 04:33am | #35

          I can't believe this!

          You remember all those ridges you've seen with a swayback ridge like a twenty year old horse?

          The walls that those rafters sat on were leaning out a little too weren't they?

          That is, the ones that haven't fallen down in the past couple of hundred years.

          Anyways - here you go, Andy - A roof is supported in one of two ways. Either it is all loaded onto the outside walls and the rafters are joined at a ridge board which carries no weight but is a nailer only, or half of the load is handled by a ridge BEAM designed to carry it.

          In the latter case, the ridge load is carried vertically down to foundation as is the outer wall loading.

          but in the former case, the transfer of load in the diagonal manner to the outer walls also imparts an outward thrust to the walls as the rafters oppose each other at the ridge. This force is counteracted by a rafter tie (sometimes doubling as a ceiling or floor rafter) connecting the roof rafters with it to form a strong triangle as modeern trusses do.

          Some older unengineered house accidentally have a combination of both working together in a successfull manner.

          But it is not wise to recommend that a house engineered for a ridge beam be built without it. An autombile can be designed to operate on only three wheels quite well, but to ask a four wheeled design to function on only three wheels would be similar to asking this house to function without the beam designed to hold the roof up.

          Be well beamed bro..

          Excellence is its own reward!

          1. User avater
            CloudHidden | Apr 06, 2003 06:50am | #37

            >You remember all those ridges you've seen

            What's a ridge?

            [Couldn't resist that. <G>]

          2. andybuildz | Apr 06, 2003 02:24pm | #39

            Piff I know what youre saying...but...as I said my house has been here over three hundred years none the less with NO ridge beam.

            I know its not the best design yet it still stands.

            My question was.....why cant a ridge beam be spliced together in the middle or several feet from the end. Isnt it still performing the same action?

            The weight of the rafters dont go side ways..they go up and down and the sheathing and roofing keep it all together as well as the collar ties.

            The only reason I used the example of my ridgeless..lol.....house was to show the "worst" screnario.

            Be beamed up Scotty

                                   Namaste

                                           andy

             

            "Understanding yourself is like trying to bite your own teeth"

            Alan Watts

            http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM

            Edited 4/6/2003 7:27:13 AM ET by Andy Clifford(Andybuildz)

          3. StanFoster | Apr 06, 2003 03:53pm | #40

            Andy:  Piffin is dead on.  If there are no collar ties across the rafters, or ceiling joists to hold the exterior walls from spreading..then the ridge has to be a self supporting beam the whole length of the building. Any downward deflection that this beam has results in the rafters ends at the ridge also going down.  This mathmatically and mechanically causes the rafter to push the exterior walls outward.  If this ridge beam does not deflect, then the loads on the rafters will be vertical at the ridge and the outside walls.

            If the rafters are collar tied or with tied with ceiling joists, then the ridge could be just the rafters pushing against its opposite counterpart..no ridge board necessary except to be a nailer for the plywood at the ridge.

            Sure...there are buildings where there is no ridge beam and no ties across the rafters. The forces trying to spread the walls outward are still there however. If there is no visible deflection of the outside walls,,it is only because of the exterior walls are stiff enough to overcome the light spreading load.  The plates on these untied walls are sometimes many layers of plates all glued and stagger jointed in such a way as to make the top of the exterior walls a beam in itself that is resisting these lateral spreading loads.

          4. andybuildz | Apr 06, 2003 06:05pm | #41

            Stan

                  I said that there were and should be collar ties to keep the shear weight from spreading the house apart.

            When some people open section of houses to give that cathedral ceiling effect from the first floor to the roof, collar ties are necessary creating somewhat of a flat ceiling before the ridge....Its an easy concept but my question was........

            WITH collar ties AND a "joined ridge beam", what negative effect is there?

            It wasnt about my house and no ridge beam...my house has collar ties and the Henrey Llyod House Museum I just reroofed with wood shingles (circa 1711) was as straight as could be with no ridge beam....just collar ties...which wasn't my inital point. Was just an example of the worst scenario.

            I dont believe I EVERRRRRRRR said "no collar ties". Just wanted to know WHYYYY one couldnt laminate two ridge beams together for a repair.

            Ugh....lol

                  Namaste

                                andy

             

            "Understanding yourself is like trying to bite your own teeth"

            Alan Watts

            http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM

            Edited 4/6/2003 11:07:38 AM ET by Andy Clifford(Andybuildz)

          5. cityhix | Apr 07, 2003 01:45am | #46

            I talked the project manager into checking with an engineer to see if one of the three short LVLs could be sandwiched between two LVLs of the proper length.  Intuitively, I'm pretty convinced that this would have worked, thus saving atleast a third of the cost but the engineer (employed by the LVL manufacturer naturally) said no, all three LVLs had to rest on a post at either end.

          6. andybuildz | Apr 07, 2003 04:48pm | #49

            Cityhix

                   Intuitevly...I have to agree. When I work it out in my mind I just don't get the concept of why it wouldnt work in spite of all thats been said about that idea here.

            I'd love to hear an engineers explanation.

            Oh well

            a 

            "Understanding yourself is like trying to bite your own teeth"

            Alan Watts

            http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM

          7. GHR | Apr 07, 2003 06:37pm | #50

            An engineer's explaination of why you cannot just replace the center beam ---

            "It is not cost effective for me to provide engineering to show the beam has sufficient strength."

            Engineering is real easy if you have nice beams - no holes no notches. The engineering is not too difficult if you have holes and notches where the perscriptive code allows them. Engineering gets real hard real fast when you start asking about holes and notches where the perscriptive code does not allow holes and notches.

          8. andybuildz | Apr 07, 2003 07:09pm | #51

            Spose I'm thick.....I don'tquite understand your point to my question although you pose another interesting point about "beams".

            Holes!

            the amount of holes I've seen plumbers and electricians bore through beams should bring a house down yet they don't seem to.

            Not advacating that, but none the less its amazing how houses stay together under adverse conditions.

            When demoing houses I'm never short of shocked at what it takes to bring down a room or section of a house.

            Be ?????

                      Namaste

                                      andy 

            "Understanding yourself is like trying to bite your own teeth"

            Alan Watts

            http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM

          9. cityhix | Apr 07, 2003 01:39am | #45

            Yes, the building in question has no collar ties whatsoever, it is an art studio with a cathedral ceiling, thus ridge beam carries all the roof load not picked up at the plates.

  17. LeeSorenson | Apr 06, 2003 01:44am | #30

    I think the carpenter learned a lot about himself that day!  He learned a lot about the boss as well.

     

    When I was 16 I was working at a pizza joint.  I remember the first time the manager let me be the “head” cook (yea, O’boy!  Well it is when your 16!) anyway… I burnt 2 pizza at the same time and when you do that it puts the order around 15 minutes later than it would have been.  I felt awful!  I went and apologized to the people and then when it was all said and done I paid for both of the pizzas.

     

    Boss would not hear of it but I really pushed it…  2 reasons why.  1st, I screwed up, no big deal in the whole scope of the world but… 2nd, when you pay for it, you NEVER do it again!!!  Oh, that week’s paycheck… ended up being $12.00 more than I should have gotten… The cost of the two pizzas.  I will never forget Bobby Toles, God rest his sole, he was a good man!

     

    $600, a paycheck, and a job is a hard lesson.  I am sure the boss will rectify the situation when all is said and done.  I also think the carp will start looking for a new boss.

     

    Wish that new boss were myself!  Lee

    1. User avater
      RichBeckman | Apr 06, 2003 03:33am | #32

      I agree with pretty much everything everyone said. No way should the guy have to pay for the beam or anything else. He does sound like a stand up guy, but he shouldn't be so quick to give his money away.

      If the boss wants the money paid, he is not competent to be a boss.

      Rich Beckman

      Another day, another tool.

  18. boardstretcher1 | Apr 06, 2003 07:50pm | #42

    I've cut this board 3 times and its still to short !!!!!!!!!!!!!

  19. MikeCallahan | Apr 08, 2003 03:29am | #52

    These days, roof framers are fewer. Only roofs on high end homes are framed by carpenters. Most roof framers are just truss stackers. Perhaps your framer needed a little more guidence. A lesson n geometry wouldn't hurt. If the beam was easy to measure like from a post to a gable end then that would be a dumb mistake but if it was a beam between two hips then that might be a little tricky. Anyway, the LVL could be used up as header stock or smaller ridge stock. I would pay that carpenter and keep him. He sounds like he was contrite enough.

    The expense of the piece is proportional to the times I check the measurement. His helpers were not thinking either. My pappy always said "This is a thinking mans job". I always make a point about waste and make believe I have a conniption when there is waste but I am very familiar with the concept of mistakes. I made more than a few myself. DAMN!!! S!_T! F__K! You know what I mean.

    We may be slow, But we're expensive.

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