Experience? tung oil on hardwood floors
edwardh1
| Posted in Construction Techniques on
Anyone done it? On hardwood floors?
Like how do you touch it up a year or so later?
The one time I did it the floor seemed “sticky” for too long.
Should you thin the stuff somehow?
Any ideas?
Replies
Tung oil is good for bars, restaurants or stores where you don't have the luxury of closing up for a few days. Once a year or so you screen and just apply another coat. VERY easy. No skill involved.
The reason your t oil stayed sticky was because it never dried because it was the wrong type of t oil. The one you used is for paint manipulation and can be used as a furniture finish when applied VERY lightly. Basically, most of it is intended to be wiped off. The one used for floors is polymerized, so it can go on thicker, harden and is more durable. If you purchase it at a flooring store you will get the right one.
It can be thinned and wiped on and off as a rubbing oil will for a penetrating first coat before going to the polymerized surface coats.
Repairs is just a buff and rub new in.
.
Excellence is its own reward!
"The first rule is to keep an untroubled spirit.
The second is to look things in the face and know them for what they are."
--Marcus Aurelius
I concur.
Wow! Piff replied with 42 minutes! Raise your glasses and chug folks!
Is there any topic he hasnt mastered!
I think I ued a Behr product.
I will look to see, but i thought it was for floors too
Edited 12/29/2002 5:51:20 PM ET by wain
Wain,
I don't know what exactly your situation is, but I've used Penofin (which is a penetrating oil) on exterior applications and it has worked great.
Ragnar
Waterlox gives the tung oil look with some additional advantages.
Cloud Hidden,
Waterlox gives the tung oil look with some additional advantages.
Care to elaborate on the technique used to get the "tung oil look?"
I applied Waterlox to some older wide board hardwood floors in exactly the same manner that I had applied other varnishes to other floors. I ended up with a floor that looked like a varnished floor. I had expected that. It left me the option of scuffing the surface to get rid of the gloss, but it still looks like a varnished floor. It seemed to me that the waterlox was just a formulation of varnish favoring tung oil instead of the more commonly used varnish ingredients .
I would love to get that look that I see in photos of 150 year old houses - the subtle oil and patina look - but with some of the added protection of varnish.
Thanks, Ed
Hmmm, my use of it doesn't look at all like varnished. It looks like furniture I've applied tung oil to. To get any gloss, I had to add a fair number of extra coats. That was for regular formulation, not their high gloss. As far as I know, it's tung oil with resins for hardness. I'm at a loss to explain what you've seen. Perhaps someone else can...
Thanks Cloud,
I think that we used two very different Waterlox products. I used the High Gloss aka "gym finish," which I think is a regular varnish, and I bet that you used the Sealer/Finish aka "transparent." Their terminolgy has never been as self explanatory to me as it is to them. Incidentally, Waterlox is a local company here.
Anyway, you sounded satisfied, maybe more than satisfied, with your floor. So now I am interested in the finish you used and have some more questions if you don't mind. Does it provide much of a durable wear layer? Have you had to recoat/repair it? Would you dare use it in my situation - on some hardwood main room floors with some foot traffic? How about on some softer poplar floors? I've got the two extremes here - Oak and Poplar.
Ed
My experience is limited to just here on bamboo, and I'm glad I used it. Used basic formulation. Using it over 75% of the house, including highest traffic areas. Haven't had to refinish anything. Can't extrapolate my experience to oak or other woods, sorry. Others may have more experience to share.
Penetrating oil was the floor finish of choice for centuries, before surface finishes were developed. Multiple coats are required, as many as 10 or more (with ample dry time, 24 to 36 hours, between coats). The floor should be flooded in sections or strips, wiped dry, and machine buffed. Use lots of rags and dispose into a metal drum filled with water. Apply coats until the floor is uniform in color. Most finish manufacturers market a rejuventing oil. This oil should be used in a maintenance schedule, depending on wear and abuse. Pad type determines sheen. A high speed machine with a white polishing pad will achieve a high gloss, provided you have applied enough oil.
Proper floor prep is tantamount to a good oil job. The last few cuts must be absolutely uniform or "hungry" areas will be present. "Water popping" or wiping the floor down with wet rags and allowing to thoroughly dry will allow deeper penetration of the oil. (use a moisture meter to check moisture content before and after popping. Wait until the moisture meter reads the same as before popping.) Applying a coat or two of oil is not an "oil job". A good oiled floor may take weeks to perform. This is one of the most time consuming and labor intensive of all floor finishes. Done properly it puts a surface finish to shame. Done improperly it looks like crap.
Ditch
Hidden Cloud, you just might have prompted me to do a couple of more floors in this house, this time giving the Waterlox sealer/finish a try. I know that if it doesn't work on my floors I still have the option of recoating it with what I keep referring to as the regular Waterlox varnish.
Luvditch.., that technique sounds like something that a lot of perfectionists will use on furniture. I don't have any difficulty imagining an appearance that would be so much to my liking that I might find myself admiring it every time I glanced at it. You think that it is suitable for a room with normal use? I mean, it is going to get walked on, and I keep imagining a saturation of the wood surface with penetrating oil but nothing more wear resistant.
To whoever was talking about the polymerized tung oil (didnt memorize the names before replying), I've seen it for sale at some tremendous cost, such as through Garrett Wade. If I should try that in one room and it doesn't work out, do you think it can then successfully be recoated with a varnish type product? My concern is putting a harder surface over a softer surface. I can imagine the varnish slowly cracking and chipping after a few years of use.
I want to thank whoever started this post... and if I get the project done this Spring or Summer I'll try to put a post about it here.
Cleve_Ed
See ya Sunday!! Go Stillers!!
Penetrating oils for floors...like Watco, will polymerize within the cells of the timber. Enough oil must be applied in order that the entire floor, each and every board will accept no more oil. Some parts of the floor, spring wood and summer wood, or plain sawn and rift will accept the oil in different degrees. In order to get the oil deep into the pores they must be opened up, hence "popping" or raising the grain. Remember... the oil is wiped dry after each coat. The floor should exhibit an even, highly polished finish...think Biltmore Estate.
For what it's worth: I always "pop" my stain jobs. For a really dark floor I'll lightly sand the floor with 320 and re-stain before coating. Raising the grain on a floor doesn't really take that long, for a really big job I'll "pop' it with a string mop.Ditch
Luvditch
Was that an invitation to wager on that game? How about wagering floor refinishing .... Pittsburg wins, I owe you 500 square feet of sanding and varnishing .... Cleveland wins and you provide say 350 square feet of floor prep and 10 coat oiling?
Ed,
Let me first say that most 'burghers couldn't be happier about playing the Brownies again, me included.
As far as wagering:
Browns win and you get my old Galaxy which needs a motor and bearings.
Browns win by more than 10 and I'll throw in a box of belts.
Browns win by 14 or more and I'll toss in my old ratchet nailer
Browns win by more than 21 and you get all of the above plus a sometimes runs- sometimes doesn't Clark edger
Browns win by more than 4 T.D.s and I'll hand over a brand new 4 disc orbital sander.
Steelers win and you sand corners and edge rads for me for a week.Ditch
Ditch,
Sorry, I just don't have it in me to take the Ford Galaxy off of you! So I part here instead wishing you an intensely enjoyable Sunday with a game that becomes a nail biter, hard fought, and with no certain winner until the final 30 seconds.
Ed
Has anyone used any tung oil in the last year?
ON FLOORS?
Would be interested in what brand you used and if you had a stickyness problem after putting the oil on.
Would really like to hear about cleaning/touching up/restoring the shine on existing tung oil covered oak floors. we have it in several rooms and it water spots in the kitchen
Thanks
My floors are oil finished. Have not put any on in years and the finish is now totally matt. Pure oil will be semi-gloss at best. a "tung oil finish" has varnish in it along with the oil. More gloss. They all repair easily. If your water spots are into the wood, you'll have to spot sand and apply several coats. If it dries sticky, you're leaving too much oil on the surface. It is not a surface finish. You have to thoroughly wipe any that does not get absorbed. Its not as durable as varnish. Re-applying is easy unless you waxed it. If so, you have to get the wax off so it will soak in. Wash the floor, make sure its totally dry, scuff with scotchbrite, and oil.
>> You have to thoroughly wipe any that does not get absorbed.
The directions on Tried and True linseed oil say to rub it with clean rags until you feel no drag when running a clean rag across the wood. That takes a lot of scrubbing and a lot of clean rags, but if you do it, there will be no stickiness.
If you're finishing oak or other wood with large unfilled pores, you'll have to repeat that every few hours until the oil stops seeping out of the pores.
trying to touch up an existing oak floor that is in pretty good shape, but dull maybe dirty and no shine at all
I don't have any advice for you. Just wanted to say you can use oil without it getting sticky, but it may take more work than you expected.
Thanks.
The company keeps saying (amadently) not to thin the oil, but I just put on a coat cut with mineral spirits and it seems much less sticky but has not dried and been buffed etc.
i also have trouble finding 8 inch buffer pads for my 30 year old "homeowner' type twin disc buffer.
maybe nobody buffs floors anymore
too bad there is not a finish 1/2 way between the tung oil that never truly cures to a gloss and the rock hard high gloss topcoat varnish "polyurethanes
oh well.
thanks again
too bad there is not a finish 1/2 way between the tung oil that never truly cures to a gloss and the rock hard high gloss topcoat varnish "polyurethanes
Yes there is. Watco or any "danish oil" is a blend of oil (tung, soy, linseed, whatever) and varnish. Thinner than varnish. Thicker than oil. A little stays on the surface. The added varnish makes the oil cure better and less sticky problems. You're probably using a danish oil unless you went to the trouble and expense of buying pure tung. Expensive. You can thin it all you want. A little solvent makes the coating a lot thinner. You can also add japan drier to make it cure faster and less sticky. Or, add Penetrol (oil flavor). Technically, the oil isn't drying. Its polymerizing by oxidation. Sunlight and heat make it go much faster. Cool conditions slow it way down, as do some pigments.
think you can put watco or waterlox over an existing tung oil floor (never been waxed?)
Edited 2/19/2004 4:34:18 PM ET by wain
Yes. Still need to scuff it , or at least I would. Waterlox is a great product. Way better than Watco. I think Watco is about 95% kerosene. Waterlox comes in low, medium and high gloss. Low and medium need to get stirred often. The high gloss is what they used to use on gym floors before poly. Durable. Watco comes in colors, but you can tint waterlox if you want it.
I'm looking for some followup on this thread subject. In a couple of months we'll be on the floors here. Some are the original wide poine from 1800, some will be relaid same, some will be new wide pine to match, and some in the kitchen are new hard white maple.
Intent is to have things look original to period, soft and darkened.
The maple will probably be poly for the wearability.
I'm thinking about a Watco rub or other for staining the new and then the Waterlox on all of it. Will try some experimenting but wondered if anyone has experience with Watco as a stain under the Waterlox.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
I would call "Jay" at Waterlox. He was very helpful to me.
We used Behr 600 scandanavian finish tung oil on select red oak floors in 1998. 5 rooms downstairs maybe 1200 ft2
The installer highly recommended it (and he has had floors he has done shown in several issues of Archictural Digest magazine.) His office had a wonderful showpiece tung oil floor display maybe 4 x 8 ft. (my guess is it was polished every day!)
It was a terrible choice for a floor finish. No water in his display room. No dirt either.
problems with tung oil based on our experience were:
1. It never seems to dry. After installation. they said walk on it only in sock feet for a week (there was NO residue wipeable off the floor yet on bare feet or worse (TeNNIS SHOES) you got an inprint on the floor that was hard to get off
we have no kids, no dogs and use lots of throw runs in high traffic areas. calling Behrs tech support line is no help. they always say put it on thinner. Again its on so thin it will not come off on a paper towell or your hand but will imprint.
2. tung oil is a dirt magnet - this dulls finish and is nasty
3. in a kitchen it water spots BADLY!
4. slow to install with endless buffing bewteen coats trying to get it to shine. 6 days to do the floors
5. no shine - dull - duller after some dirt gets in it
we tried cleaning and "touching it up in 01, putting like 1 drop of tung oil per square foot and had a repeat of the stickies, dullness, and water spotting.
We put (medium sheen original) Waterlox on it a month ago.
pluses are:
Great shine
hard surface - like regular plain poly
does not waterspot
can be touched up
- great company tech support
Minuses_
-expensive ($48 gallon) (how much is "plain" poly now?
-hard to find tho factory ships it quick 3 day delivery
woodcrafters carrys it but only in quarts $15 a quart
-drys hard to the touch in a day or two but takes about 2 -3 weeks(70 degrees and 50% Hunidity) to stop smelling.
- one installation problem - put it in a hall as a test - two coats - stuck like crazy (even tho hall had been waxed - used ammonia to clean hall) and dried hard and fast.
Same for large entrance hall and dining room - 3 coats. No prob.
kitchen first coat went on fine. second coat had "orange peel' problem over 20 % of area -varnish would not stick but would seperate into stripes (hard to explain). Big rework - sanding , reclean with ammonia etc.
large bedroom - vanity area master closet - started to apply second coat (problem always with second coat?) and started to get the stripping non adhesion mess. stopped and cleaned floor with ammonia, worked ok, same after 2nd coat - needed ammonia. maybe need to let it dry longer 3 days?
waterlox is good stuff but if I were king of the earth I would ban regular tung oil like the Behr application on floors.
my wife likes the final look and it looks like regular plain poly varnish, which is what we should have used in the first place
Folks at local woodcrafters said watco was essentially "kerosene". They also liked waterlox but said it needed a little longer to dry than the can said.
if watco is traditional tung oil i would not use it . waterox at least hardens
Edited 4/13/2004 8:31 am ET by wain
Edited 4/13/2004 8:32 am ET by wain
Thanks for all that to digest.
watco is a wiping oil but at this moment, I'm unsure if it is tung, linseed, or both as a base. I have used it for furniture and find it similar to your stories of the Watco on the floor. On one surrond base for a lay in whirlpool tub on mahogany, I used about eight coats of it (I think I lost the digital photos of that job) and it remained hard and beautiful without water spots until the day they - Ugh! - painted it!
But it was slow curing
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not sure people use a whirlpool tub every day.
kitchens used 3x a day.
more water, food, grease get on the floor.
tung oil did not do well there (for us)
thats probably why 99% of the folks use poly on the wood kitchen floors
plus the slow cure and smell problems
piff
As you know I finished my LR a couple of weeks ago using the factory (Calisle) recommended finish on the wide plank Eastern white pine I installed (350 sq ft).
I used tung oil.
Besides the hassle I had using a water base stain the tung oil went on as fast if not faster than any poly I've ever used and I was able to put two heavy coats on in one day after the first coat.
I ended up with five coats.
I used a lambs wool applicator on my paint pole.
The finish to me seems quite durable and the only reason I see sneaker marks (which is easy to clean up) is because of the shine.
BEfore I did the fifth coat I used a 220 grit on my vibrating sander then wiped it up with denatured alcohol.
Its as smooth as glass.....I'll let you know in a month or so how its wearing if you end up considering the tung oil in the end.
It'll be a true test here being that every room in the house is covered in dust and debris not to mention trudging in from the outside all the mud.
BE floored
andyMy life is my passion!
http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
Watco is an oil/varnish blend. Can't tell you off-hand if if contains linseed, tung or both. Your nose might give you a hint if you're curious enough as tung and linseed have very distinctively different odors.
While I like the product well enough, I haven't used it straight for many years because it simply doesn't produce the look nor the durability I desire when used all by itself. I always blend it with some gloss poly to achieve faster build and a better, harder glossier surface that takes a better shine and is more receptive to paste wax. Using a blend up to 40% gloss poly with the Watco, you can achieve in 2 coats what would take 5 -6 with straight Watco .........and end up with a finish that cures faster and harder.
The higher the oil portion of an oil/varnish blend, the longer the cure time and the softer the end result.....although a polymerized tung oil will yield a harder result than a polymerized linseed oil. If the original product contains polymerized tung oil, the end result will be more water resistant than if it contains olymerized linseed oil. The more varnish you add to the blend, the less significant this becomes.
The more varnish you add to the blend, the more it also takes on the characteristics and performance of a wiping varnish. Consequently, if using a higher proportion of the added varnish, the shorter the time before you must get the excess removed. Bear that in mind if you're using it on a large floor area. Thinning it a bit with some mineral spirts will allow easier spreading of high varnish ratio blends but you may then have to apply an "extra" coat to achieve the desired final build. If you'd like to maintain the basic type of sheen (or should I say, lack of it?) that Watco alone would develop, just use satin poly in the blend instead. Not my cup of tea as a rule, but to each his own.
Here's a short and no doubt incomplete list of these oil/varnish blends that are often sold under the term "Danish oil". They may contain linseed or tung oil........ Watco Danish Oil, Behr Scandinavian Tung Oil Finish, Minwax Antique Oil Finish, Minwax Tung Oil Finish, Deft Danish Oil Finish, Pratt & Lambert's Okene, Benjamin Moore Scandinavian Oil Finish.
Knowledge is power, but only if applied in a timely fashion.
Edited 4/14/2004 10:42 am ET by GOLDHILLER
Let me try a different way of wording my question for you. I appreciate the education and think maybe I understand it, but try it this way too....if you don't mind,
I will be putting down new wide pine plank flooring - soft eastern white pine - to try matching the old. That old has taken on the rose patina of age from 200 years of oils and waxes and looks invitingly warm and soft with no high sheen. I will retop it.
So my final will have a soft satin look. I want to get close to that colour with staining - probably Watco - and then finish the wood - maybe Waterlox
Sound doable?
BTW I'm pretty sure the Watco has a diferent smell than linseed. I loce the Watco smell and hate the linseeed.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Waterlox is vastly better than just oil. Comes in satin, medium and gloss. Even the medium is pretty glossy, more than you get with a couple coats of oil. I'd go with the satin if you want it to look right. Waterlox is close to 50% solids. Use very thin coats. I don't like it as a finish, but Watco is OK as a stain. It has both dye and pigment in an oil/varnish base. Let it dry at least a couple days before topcoating. On new wood it will soak in considerably. Clean the old work with a commercial wax remover. A wash with dewaxed shellac wouldn't hurt. It will bond to a slightly waxy surface. If you're going to put down 3 or more coats of Waterlox, I'd only use satin for the last two with "medium" for the first coats. Three coats should do for satin. 24 hours between coats. Scuff with scotchbrite between coats. Don't walk on it for a week. Try to wear socks for another couple weeks. No golf shoes.
The new pine will naturally darken a bit with age, but it changes continually for years. Hard to predict. You may want to stain the new work just a bit lighter than a perfect match. If you don't want it blotchy, do a wash coat of dewaxed shellac. Not Bullseye orange. Sealcoat is OK. Maybe 1/2 pound cut (3 or 4 to 1 dilution with denatured alcohol) and sand very lightly before the Watco. If you don't sand, the Watco won't have anything to bite on and it will be very light. Test on scrap. Your mileage may vary.
Watco walnut uses Gilsinite (sp?) for the "colorant". It is basing refined tar.
According to Jeff Jewitt is has some of the properties of a dye and some of a stain. I used some on ash and got good even coloring.
But then I made a table with ash and wanted dark legs and light top. Used it on the legs and it went ZERBRA on me. Jeff said that happens sometimes. Have no idea if it is a problem or not.
I would try using a base of garnet dewaxed shellac. You can get it from Jeff. Also he has Transint dyes that can either be used directly or mixed into the shellac or other fisish product.
Ask over at his forum on Homestead Finishing and I am sure that he has a recipe for this along with several options.
Goldhiller gave a good list of the "tung oil" oil/varnishes.
Here is a list of wiping varnishes - Hope's Tung Oil varnish, Zar Wipe On Varnish, Tungseal Tung Oil Varnish, Waterlox, Formey's tung Oil Finish, Gillispe's Tung Oil Finish.
Note that "tung oil finish" is used in both groups. Really unless it says 100% Tung Oil or Polumerized Tung Oil then "tung oil" is just a marketing term. It really does not define the characteristics of the product as you have no idea of what percentage, if any, is tung oil and there are many items that affect the characteristics such as the types of resins (varnish) and percent of them.
My list (and it appears that Goldhillers list) can from Flexner's Understanding Wood Finish book and I highly recommend it.
Also he gives a test to determine if it is a wiping varnish or oil varnish.
Pour a small amount in a piece of glass (coule be formica or other hard surface) and let it dry overnight.
the wiping varnish will hard and smooth.
the oil varish will wrinkle and be soft.
Also I would recommend Jeff's Great Wood Finishes book. More towards furniture, but he has pictures and steps for a number of finishes.
He has one for antique pine.
He uses an yellow-orange alcohol dye for the base color. Then a seal coat and a burnt umber glaze to "antique" it by leaving dark areas (probably not used for a floor) and then varnish.
Which Watco are you using for the stain? I've used it a lot, but never have figured out what's in it! The stuff is supposed to "polymerize" leaving a tougher surface film than other oil finishes. I love it because I don't have to worry about dust when I'm finishing, and it really does make wood pretty. I've used barrels of Waterlox, too. Don't know anything about it on white pine, but it makes heart pine into some sexy stuff (I love woodLOL)...and, it's easy to touch up.
I'd like how the "mixture" works out. Don't worry, we can fix that later!
I gotta get out the charts and compare to samples before I know which colour I'll be staining it.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
I'll offer what I can from this distance and the quarry being sight unseen.
I think Bob had alot of really good info and advice to offer. That being said, I don't personally play around much anymore coloring pine via the staining/dyeing techniques that you're thinking of using on this floor. The reason being that the results can be difficult to predict and control. (I use other means to color pine….none of which would be applicable for you on a floor with an "oil" finish".)
Some things to keep mind is that attempts at coloring raw pine with stain or dye usually results in "grain reversal". A flip-flop, if you will. What was dark becomes the lighter and vice-versa. Unless your old flooring was stained and the reversal took place at that time, using a stain directly on your new wood would then make it look different. A quick look at the old should tell you. And, your new pine would need to be sanded to very fine grit to avoid having the sanding marks flare up with the application of the stain or dye.
I can't recall if I've ever tried a colored Watco (combo stain and finish) product on pine in the past or not. Would've been a long time ago if I have. Reversal may not take place because the color is borne in the oil/varnish blend and therefore the saturation rate of the color is controlled.
Bob suggested using a wash coat of dewaxed shellac and that was a good suggestion particularly if you intend or need to resort to pigment stains or dyes to achieve the desired color as it will perform a preliminary saturation and sealing of those areas that are apt to soak in too much colorant. And as he suggested, I'd also recommend that you do your experimenting on the same stock ahead of time and before committing to the real deal. (like we needed to tell you that) The results can be very unpredictable as they pertain to the cut of the shellac and subsequent attempts at coloring.
You could also consider the use of a gel stain on the pine to control and/or eliminate blotching and still get the color you're after without grain reversal. A gel stain might well be the first place I'd turn to get what I'm envisioning as your needs. But……….gel stains in general don't allow for really deep colors as the saturation is controlled by the formula and so a gel stain (or combination of different colors of gel stain) may not get you as deep in color as you need to go without leaving a film of it behind on the surface. Only some experimenting will tell. I'd follow any of these experiments right on thru the finishing process so you have a good handle on the whole deal before you start.
Now then……..I doubt I've said anything you didn't already know. : -)
There's also the potential of burying the stuff in a pile of horse manure for a few weeks to a few months? Yes, I'm serious. Folks who need a reproduction that blends right in with the very old pieces in the same room do this sort of thing. The results are amazing but frequent checks of the progress are necessary.
Anything is possible (pretty much) but success is usually directly related to time, patience, money and when desire yields to fatigue.
Something to bear in mind here I think is that if you stain or dye this wood to achieve target color, that color would be eventually vulnerable to wear-thru underfoot. That day would come much sooner I fear, if a penetrating rather than a film type finish is used. A bit of neglect and ………………….
No available pics, I presume. ??
Knowledge is power, but only if applied in a timely fashion.
Edited 4/14/2004 10:28 pm ET by GOLDHILLER
kidding?
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Well….again Bob has covered the basics darn well and with more depth than I invested.
I've was thinking about suggesting that you might turn to patina acceleration via sunshine or artificial sources of UV, but realized that since you'll probably need to sand the floor boards after installation, that this type of procedure might not appeal if time and effort constraints are looming their ugly heads. And there's the potential for causing cupping of the boards while leaving them lay in the sun unless you rotate frequently. There would be an investment necessary to acquire the artificial light sources and to maneuver them about the flooring after installation to insure even exposure. It might take something on the order of two days exposure on each area to those artificial sources to yield the desired result. Depending on the number of sources, doing the whole floor could delay finishing the job for quite a while.
It's too bad that you can't just lay your hands on some reclaimed very old wood for your project. The right material with the right "pre-aging" and then the old and "new" might match very well without the need of much, if any color manipulation.
After seeing your pics, I can assure you that you can hit that color dead on the money (even including the subtle variations of intensity that natural finished aged wood frequently displays)………….. in relatively short order, but the method involved would IMO require a film type finish for adequate protection….and so I won't go into that approach since it seems a film type finish just isn't in the cards.
Bob's offered a pretty good approach to achieving a set of samples to choose from. But if this project was mine and there was also a need to stain the wood, I'd be making my own from color concentrates I have in the shop rather than relying on the readily available colors from various manufacturers or from a blend of those. It's not that the latter can't get you where you want to go (or pretty close), but I can get there much faster and with less $$$ investment by blending my own from scratch with these products. Knowing which readily offered of-the-shelf products perform coloration via what method and constraints is one thing, getting the desired end result is usually another. You may simply have to accept "close enough" at some point.
You should probably consider/remember that before you can even begin shooting for the desired result on the new stock; you need to do the refurbishment of the existing flooring first or you don't really know what your real target is.
Edit: Okay, I'll stick my neck out a bit. Relying on memory of products I haven't used in quite a while, I think that Minwax Colonial Maple would be a good starting point if you go for off the shelf coloring products. I'd suggest that you take a board that's already sanded to the store with you and then apply some of that stain to it in the store or out in the parking lot. You may then be able to judge if the result is too "whatever" and then determine what is needed for adjustment. Return to store and choose the color(s) to blend with that you think would get things within range. Be careful because your memory isn't always as good as you think when it comes to color and the difference in lighting can really skew your judgement, as well.
Knowledge is power, but only if applied in a timely fashion.
Edited 4/15/2004 11:53 am ET by GOLDHILLER
I use a suntan lamp. Only takes a half hour, but not practical for a floor. Same effect with sunlight takes days in the summer. I use it on furniture. You find them all the time at Salvation Army or yard sales for a couple bucks. Dilute lye is good on pine and cherry. Messy because it has to get washed VERY well. Preferably test the wash water with a PH tester until completely neutral. Alkalai will destroy shellac. Stick with stains unless you just have to try the exotic stuff. That's why they got invented. They're easier.
I do make up my own concoctions for special purposes, but generally when I need to match 2 square inches of something. At $10 or $20 a gallon its not worth trying to compete with a real manufacturer and their color matching from one batch to another is much better than I can do. SAme with shellac. Yes, the flakes are better. Yes, there are a lot of tricks you can play with gourmet solvents and stuff. You can use lemon or garnet or orange or buttonlac. You can also dye it to suit. But the cost is still about $20 a gallon whether you make it or buy it. Just buy it fresh. The ready-made stuff does not have a good shelf life. 3 years tops. One year to play it safe.
I suggested 6 samples to make it simple, but I generally do about a dozen before I get what I want. Not real big. Maybe 6 inches. Don't forget to write on the back what you did. I always think I'll remember but I never do.
" I use a suntan lamp. Only takes a half hour, but not practical for a floor."
I use the same, but frequently when doing repairs on an older piece of furniture, it takes 6-8 hours to reach the equivalent patina value. Variable time with distance from target area and intensity/wattage of bulb. I'm usually around 14"-16". Closer and the wood gets too hot. Frequently I mask off the rest of the piece and then move the mask around a little to dodge in the repair area with the rest. When complete, no one can tell a repair was done.
"You can use lemon or garnet or orange or buttonlac."
I was going to suggest this to Piffin but no film finishes allowed in this project evidently and I doubt enough of the color would remain to be truly meaningful if used only as the wash coat…..and I figured I might as well stay on task.
Like you said ……..no one can know it all. There's just too vast of a number of different approaches that can be used to color wood.
Stains alone just don't cut it for me on alot of jobs. Not all woods will accept enough of the stain or even dye to get you "there" all by themselves.
Here's a job we finished recently. From dirty yellow/green maple to "walnut".
Knowledge is power, but only if applied in a timely fashion.
Here's an example of another way to color wood.
Metallic acid dyes.
Knowledge is power, but only if applied in a timely fashion.
hey
Sorry yet you reopened this topic?
Not at all, it has been very educational for me.
when the dust settles, we suck it up ( Sears Vaxcumn) and go on with the work
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Piff--
Best way I know to get the look you want is to flood the bare wood (I use a lambswool varnish pad) with a dark-coloured penetrating 'transparent' stain like B-Moore or Minwax (something like Special Walnut, for instance), then let it dry without wiping it. Buff the dried mud (the unabsorbed colour solids) off with a mechanical buffer using medium Scotchbrite pads. You controll the look by how much you buff any given area. This is art in the real world....
That done, apply the finish coats of your choice. I would think that for the old, soft look you want, the oiled finish as described in the early part of this thread by Luvditch would be the ticket. I'd use pure teak oil, that being the product I've had the most experience and good luck with. But I've also had very nice results with using Varathane Professional Diamond Finish over B-Moore on red pine. This stuff dries to re-coat in 3-4 hours and is good for 5+ years per coat in soft-shoe traffic areas (i.e.: upstairs spaces).
Dinosaur
'Y-a-tu de la justice dans ce maudit monde?
EDIT--having seen the two pics you posted, I revise my colour recommendation. But I'm sure you can match that with Minwax. You can buff the variation in colour into the new work to make it all seamless. If you want to avoid blotching with the lighter colour on the new pine, Minwax makes a prep coat specifically for this purpose--they call it WOOD CONDITIONER. They also make an Antique Oil Finish which I use for cabs, but I don't know how it would fare on a floor. Haven't got a clue what's in it. FWIW.
Edited 4/15/2004 12:02 am ET by Dinosaur
What you're doing by letting it dry and buffing is removing most of the pigment part and keeping the dye. Most "stains" have a blend of a dye plus a pigment. Transparent stains have more dye. Opaque stains have more pigment. Dyes tend to be blotchy because of variations in absorption. Particularly on resinous woods like pine. They also have more of a problem with reversal, where the soft lighter earlywood accepts more dye than the harder and darker latewood. Dyes soak in a little. Pigments stay on the surface, in the grain and in scratches. Pigments are more influenced by how finely the surface is sanded. Sand too fine and there is nothing for the pigment to bite into and color is much lighter than expected. Dyes can be oil, water or alcohol soluble. Each has a somewhat different result because of the way wood absorbs the carrier. Stains mix dyes and pigments to balance these effects and give a more natural appearance. Too much of either gives problems. Pure pigments just sit on top and wear easily. Too much dye looks unnatural, may reverse the grain and gives problems with lap marks. Can't rub off dye to make it even. Chemical treatments also exist. A wash with dilute lye will warm up the pine considerably. Somewhat unpredictable because it depends on the sugar content of the wood. It does nicely simulate the effects of age, as do acid treatments, ultraviolet light and other more toxic chemicals. Gel stains are just stains or dyes with jello (actually hydroxypropyl cellulose) to temper the absorption. I don't care for them.
Wood conditioner is just a very dilute lacquer. It soaks into the softer parts and prevents as much dye absorption. A wash of shellac does the same thing. Also, wetting with water, mineral spirits or other solvent before staining will do the same, but is harder to control. I like shellac because it naturally bonds well to waxy or oily woods. Dewaxed shellac is necessary because poly and some oil varnishes will either not dry or not bond to plain waxy orange shellac. Sealcoat is a dewaxed shellac and may be easier to find than dewaxed flake shellac. You need to scuff the wood conditioner so the pigment part of the stain has scratches to bite into. Otherwise, its too smooth and some of the dye penetrates but the pigment wipes off.
Oil has a very high refractive index and good wetting and penetration. This pops the grain much better than any waterbased or solventbased finish. Those either don't penetrate, don't have a high enough refractive index or are cloudy. Linseed tends to darken with age but tung does not. "Teak oil" is an oil with additives to bond better on oily woods; the base can be any oil. Modified vegetable oils can be pretty dark. Oil is soft. Add a resin; rosin, copal, urethane, alkyd, acrylic to make a harder product that wears better. Thats varnish. Add aluminum oxide for exceptional wear. They do that on prefinished flooring. Waterlox is a modified tung oil varnish. Modified tung plus resins. Moderate solids content. Moderate build. Watco is some unspecified oil, resins, pigment, dye and a lot of thinner. Low solids content. Low build. Varnish is maybe 60% solids plus binder and thinner. High build.
A natural look for your pine would be just boiled linseed (BLO) with wax on top. Doesn't wear well and you'd need to wait a decade for the color. Re-oil and wax every 5 or 10 years. Watco plus BLO and wax will give the instant color but likewise not wear well. Watco plus Waterlox will give a more durable and more glossy finish. Poly on top may be slightly more durable but won't look as natural. You can also mix your own with oil and dye and pigment and drier and resins or varnish. Messy, complicated, nasty, unpredictable. The people who manufacture varnish know how to do this better than you do. There are at the very least 1000 ways to do this and a thousand brands of products.
Test: Get a couple of the knottiest sappiest boards. Leave 3 bare and washcoat 3 with shellac. Sand lightly with about 120 grit. Wipe 2 of each with Watco of your choice. Let dry. Wipe half of with BLO and half with Waterlox. Leave in the sun for a week. That gives you bare oiled, bare waterlox, stained oiled and stained waterlox with and without a wash coat. Your wife will tell you which one to do.
Finishing in a nutshell.
Thanks deeply, That was a keeper.
My wife is too, but this isn't for her. Customer. My eye will tell me what to do after the test.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
I've had good luck with both Minwax and varathane products on floors too.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Bob
One thing I'm noticing on the new wide plank eastern white pine floor I finished installing a bit ago is if you breathe on it it dents big time.
My guess is that if it was installed decades ago or centuries ago it may be a harder surface than what I installed last month. Just a feeling.
I wonder if the Waterlox or one of those finishes would help prevent the damaging effects of bangs drops and bumps on it cause I have a whole lot more to do.
The tung oil I used was recommended by Carlisle which is why I used it..I bought the flooring from them..five coats of tung oil...easy to apply and smooth and a pretty good sheen along with a soft natural look.
I can't imagine "any" finish would help the dings the pine gets.what do you think?
I may have to reconsider using the stuff in the rest of the house especially the kitchen which is pretty big.
Be floored
andyMy life is my passion!
http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
The pine that people had available a hundred years ago was old-growth and I think a different type of pine. Look at the rings per inch. 10, 15, 20 compared with the new fast-growing junk that has 6 or even less. The soft earlywood has little strength. The more rings per inch you have the tougher it is. I also do think that time hardens it. The natural resins in the wood harden. You can get a lot of surface hardness with the right finish. Waterlox is certainly harder than a plain oil like tung. It might make a minor improvement in resistance to dents, but not much. I think some old floors have just been uniformly pounded by a hundred years of use and the surface is now fairly hard.
Penetration is overrated. Look at how much a penetrating finish actually penetrates. A few thousandths of an inch. To get any real penetration, it has to be done under pressure. I've tried to make my own dyed veneers. You can leave veneer soaking in dye for a week and it still has not completely dyed to the middle of a 1/32 inch thick veneer. Rubbing any oil or dye on the surface for a minute does not give significant penetration. It goes deeper in cracks and pores, but thats about it.
Theres a mill near me that specializes in reclaimed flooring. Some of it is pretty spectacular. Wide heart pine resawn from old barn beams. The nice mellow color goes all the way through. For $15 a raw board foot, it should. Its much more splintery stuff than Eastern White Pine and has a lot more resin. Very pretty and very tough. Nearly as hard as oak.
This is a vast topic. You can't know it all. People do what works for them. There are a lot of ways I know that do not work and a few I know that do work. Watco or Minwax or Valspar ? Pretty much the same to me. Minor differences. Zillions of different brands. A new miracle finish comes out every week. People are always hoping for some miracle that makes finishing easy. Nope. Its hard. Some even work almost as good as the the ones I've already used for years. I do make my own dyes and stains sometimes. Not really cheaper than ready made. Fake Watco; a quart of tung, 2 quarts mineral spirits, a quart odorless kerosene, some asphalt, japan drier, dye and tinting color. Still takes time, costs 15 bucks and you need your own can.
You just have to try stuff. Floors and cabinets and millwork and furniture are all different. Pine dents easy. Oak doesn't. I like the look of pine and it ages gracefully. In a kitchen, plan on oiling often. It will dent. After a hundred years the dents will all average out. People want Pergo. Its plastic. It looks like plastic. I like wood with all the faults. For a finish, go with something that can be maintained. OIl or varnish, just add a new coat when you want. Gets better every time. Catalyzed lacquer, strip, sand and refinish. It doesn't get better with age.
Bob,
Thanks for the time to me in your thread.
I also feel the same way as you as I've expressed before.
The rooms in this 1680 house that are pine seem as hard if not harder than oak and my guess has always been it hardens in time.like some of us.lol.
I also make my own stains for different projects but sometimes its just not worth it.sometimes it is.
I may reconsider using pine in the rest of the house.
Pizzes me off that Carlisle claimed to me it was old growth which is one reason I went with it.
Thank god I didn't buy the entire house full of it yet....whewww.
I also agree that any stain that says its "penetrating" is a load of BS.
Spose they can get away with saying that because it does penetrate but as you say.......not more than a billionth of an inch.
Maybe they meant it penetrates your skin cause its harder to get off your hands than it is to take off the wood.
Anyway, thanks for your thoughts.
I love the look of the tung oil and my guess... Watco which I've used before or even .......well all the other stuff isn't going to help the duribility enough to warrent the expense.
Tung oil sure looks great, easy to lay down and easy to repair spots in.
Be well bro,
andyMy life is my passion!
http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
I like the look of pine. Has its own issues, but it has a nice comfortable look and feel. Depends on whether you want something that looks like "home" or just "house". Oak is overused. Good mechanical properties and inexpensive, but you get tired of seeing it everywhere in little 2 inch strips. I'd rather see more cherry and hickory and different stuff. Random width, but its harder to lay and more expensive. There are lots of varieties of pine. Some of what people sell as old-growth pine I suspect is actually fir. A lot of the new stuff is fast-growth. Some I've seen with as few as 3 rings/inch. More like balsa than pine. Rots in about 20 minutes. Southern Yellow Pine is closer than Eastern White to the look and properties of the old growth stuff. The cut is also really important. Has to be quartered rather than flatsawn. Major difference in appearance as well as durability and stability. Watco is OK as is pure tung or a good tung/varnish mixture. Formbys or the like. I like Waterlox better. Much higher solids content so keep it thin. Valspar has a version that's OK and cheaper. Alkyd rather than tung.
For the folks interested in suntanning, there are basically three types of lamps. The GE screw-in lamps, mercury vapor lamps, and UV fluorescents. Fluorescents are mostly low power long-wave UV. Fairly useless. The GE screw-base lamps are OK, but put out more heat than light. The good ones are the mercury vapor lamps. Short clear tubular bulb and you can see little drops of mercury inside. Maybe 10 times more powerful than the GE type. Wear sunglasses. They can cause permanent eye damage very quickly. That's the kind I have.
Bob
thanks for your post.
The rings on my planks are approx a dozen.
There's no way in hell I'm using this stuff in the rest of the house.
MAybe if I was Chineese and insisted that everyone takes their shoes off it might have a chance......OK.even Hindu.lol
In my situation it'd be totally insane to keep going with it.
Unfortunatly I have quite a bit left over.....I'll use it in the hall adjoing it but not the entry adjoing it..duh.
Maybe the powder room to be adjacent to the LR .....oh yeh, that'd take all of two pieces.......
I may use it on some walls actually as thats how the lower walls were finished 300+ years ago in the LR that I've stripped and finished with an amber shelac.
I'm going to look into reclaimed but my guess is that its probably seriously expensive.....
Hey, I could put plexiglass over it.......hmmmmmmmmm
Thanks again and
Be well
andyMy life is my passion!
http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
I'd say 12 rings was fairly good. Probably old growth. Some stuff is just softer than others. I've seen a lot of old houses where the pine floors had worn down a good 3/8 inch in traffic areas. Character. But, if its not the sort you want... Stainless steel maybe?
The old paneling was probably painted. Everybody strips it now and is proud of the nice woody look. Couple hundred years ago everything was wood and they were tired of it and painted or papered over it.
Reclaimed is very expensive. Milled as flooring, I see it at $12 and up. Mostly up. May not be as durable as you want either.
You might want to check out these guys. I used to live down the road from them, and sell them beams we salvaged. Nice guys, but high dollar stuff.
be like Leadbelly: in the pines, in the pines...<G> Don't worry, we can fix that later!
Are you able to mention the name of the mill near you that specializes in reclaimed flooring?
Waterlox is a tung oil based finish that dries hard. They claim it is about as hard as poly for floors. It goes on easy and looks great. I did a floor about a month ago with it, so I can't personally say how it holds up, but I have heard good things there, too.
It is available in different sheens. http://www.waterlox.com has more information.
No, I don't sell the stuff, but if you are around Austin, I have a couple gallons left over!
edit
I should have read more before I posted, I guess I didn't have anything to add but a vote for waterlox!
Edited 2/19/2004 3:38:33 PM ET by TXJon
The original application was with Behr Scandanivian (sp) Tung oil . The can does nor say it is polymerized. It does mention use on floors. Holds up well but water spots (in kitchen).
when I touched it up a few years ago i had the sticky problem, even days later, if you walked on it in bare feet it would show your foot mark lightly. Any idea what caused that.?
Can waterlox go over this existing tung oil? does waterlox harden like "regular' floor "varnish"?
Thanks.
"The original application was with Behr Scandanivian (sp)Tung oil"
Is this #600. It is NOT TUNG OIL. It is a tung oil FINISH.
Behr only indicates that "Its unique formula with linseed oil, tung oil and wax is fortified with U.V.I. (Ultraviolet Inhibitors)".
In genral there are two different classes of product that are called "tung oil finishes". They are wiping varnishes, which are basically varnishes that have been thinned with a solvent.
The other is class is a mixture of oil, varnish, and thinners.
In either case the only tung oil might be in what was used in making the varnish. The separate oil is most likely lindseed oil, but could be tung oil or partial tung oil.
Flexner's "Understanding Wood Finishing" goes into lots of details about these and how to tell the difference between then and also between them and straight (raw) linseed oil, pure tung oil, boiled lindseed oil, and polymerized oil.
The book has a picture of different products in the different classes. The Behr Scanddinacian Tung Oil Finish is show as an oil varnish.
Waterlox is show shown as a wiping varnish. But the picture is too small to tell exactly what product that he showing.
The stickness is caused by leaving too much of the oil varnish on the surface. You did not wipe it down enough.
You said:
The Behr Scanddinacian Tung Oil Finish is show as an oil varnish.
Waterlox is show shown as a wiping varnish."
What is the practical difference between these two?
whats confusing me is the categories - the Behr is called an oil (based on its composition?)
the waterlox is called wiping based on how its put on?
Confusing to me so far.
The wiping varnish is really just a thinned varnish that you can put on by wiping. So it has varnish like characteristics, except that the coats are thinner. I use a lot on furniture, but I make by own. 50/50 mix of an varnish and naptha.
Here is Flexners chart with the difference in the two.
WIPING VARNISH
High protection if built up with enough coats
Glossy (unless a satin varnish is used)
Easy application
Light color
Shallow penetration
Dries fairly fast and can be built up with leaving enough wet coats on the surface.
Typical brands; Hope Tung Oil Finish, Zar wipe on tung oil finish, McCoskey Tungseal tung oil varnish, Forrmby's tung oil finish.
OIL/VARNISH
medium protection
satin (rubbed)
very easy application
medium color
medium penetration
Varies somewhat in curing time and gloss depeidn on the oil-to varish ration. Cures more slowly than varnish to a satin sheen. Shouldn't be uildt up because the oil in the finish causes the finish to cure too soft.
Typical brands; Watco, Minwax tung oil finish, Minway Antique oil finish, Deft danish oil finish, Benjaim Moore Scandinavian oil finish.
If you put a small puddle of the wiping varnish on a piece of glass it will curve to a smooth coat. An oil/varnish mix will have a wrinkled surface.
This floor wasn't oiled with tung oil, but a non toxic penetrating oil made my Livos. The blocks are fir endgrain, the strip floor the blocks abutt and are inlaid into is red oak. I snapped the photo after applying about 1/2 the first flood coat - you can see the raw blocks in the bottom of the one photo.
Like Luvditchburns said, it's important to keep flooding, buffing, and wiping successive coats until the wood is saturated. I saw this floor a couple years after installing it and it still looked good, despite very, very heavy traffic - dogs, parrots, muddy boots...
Jim- was curious how thick those endblocks were?Character? I never had any problem with character. Why, people've been telling me I was one every since I was a kid.
The thinnest finished at about 3/4". The thickest closer to 1+1/2".
Thanks, could I pick your brain a bit more and ask what kind of bed did they seat into and do you ever have to deal with the blocks checking after installation? How come there is such a wide variance in the thickness of the blocks?
Sorry to pepper you with so many questions but I'd always heard of this flooring style but never got to hear the mechanics of the thing.
Character? I never had any problem with character. Why, people've been telling me I was one every since I was a kid.
Edited 12/31/2002 10:26:26 AM ET by rez
We glued the blocks down with a hardwood flooring adhesive, applied with the recommended notched trowel.
Yes, some of the blocks did crack with humidity changes in the house. The homeowner demanded I install the floor before the blocks, which I cut from CVG 6x6's, adequately acclimated to the house. Had to go back and fill/reoil those sections a couple months after initial installation. Then, because we laid them up so tightly, when the next season of moisture laden air came around, the entire thing swelled and lifted in the center, as if there was an air bubble trapped beneath a laminate countertop. That's when the real fun started - but that's another story.
These blocks were at one end of the kitchen. Another part of that same job was opening the wall and installing double doors from that end of the kitchen into the dining area. Well, the kitchen floor was 3/4" higher than the dining room because someone had added the Red Oak floor, so instead of leave the 3/4" step up into the kitchen across the width of that doorway we machined a ramp over a span of about 30" into the blocks to make that height transition. Again, a whole other story than the oil finish.
Scratched my head more than once on that project I'll tell you. Got lots of ideas from folks here at Breaktime, too. Mark Cadioli gave me the idea for the sled to run my router in to machine that ramp.
Boy, talk about complexities.
Maybe an interesting fact, an old local factory here has a floor made of 2x6 endblocks placed as in a staggered brick effect. Still durable after all the years.
You got me thinking of a use for all the short PT 2x cutoffs from the jobsites. Roar!Character? I never had any problem with character. Why, people've been telling me I was one every since I was a kid.