First of all, I need to introduce myself. This is this first time that I have utilized the “Forum” and it appears to be a great means to share ideas. I’m a career firefighter and my schedule provides plenty of off-time to venture into the construction trades. I’m fairly new to the trade (3 yrs.), with most of my experience in new construction for a GC that works in the department with me. Well, I’ve branched off on my own and I’m now faced with a restoration issue.
A potential customer has asked me to submit a bid on repairing two door jambs on a French Door. The French Door has one-side fixed and the other is left-hand opening to the interior. The issue is that the two jambs in question are for the fixed door. One adjoining the jack-stud and the other is a (2″x3″) jamb that appears to be fastened to the fixed door.
The damage is to a point where I could possibly clean-out the rotten wood and fill with wood-filler, but I want appoach my business in a manner that I want to fix it the correct way, no just mask the problem for a few years. I know that the part of the cure would be to design am overhang to get the water way from the door, but unfortunately that isn’t an option.
I would appreciate any assistance and insight.
Thanks,
Mark
Replies
If you really want to get into it, do what I've always wanted for my patio. French doors that both open up. That would be a replacement of the header and the doors would be,the one "fixed" would hold the jam for the lock set. The fixed one would have to lock top and bottom. About $2000 canadian + installation
I just had an estimate like that 2 weeks ago . It was for a 32" rear door on a deck. The door was facing north no overhang. The door was ten years old. It had a damaged threshold and jambs. Essentially he wanted me to re- hang the ten year old.
It would have taken me as much time to re hang that door as it cost for a new door of the same quality. I tried to explain to him. That it would not cost any less, to get a new door. At that point I knew Iwouldn't get the job. I later found out . I did not for that reason.
I could have hung it on a knockdown pre fab jamb w/new casing. With a new door, You have a waranty. It allows you to Guarantee Your work much better too. For example: If the seal on the glass ,on that 10 year old door, would have blown. It would have been my fault , even if it wasn't. Six months down the road . I would have to defend my workmanship. Probably, End Up replacing it. With a new door Under a warranty, If any thing goes wrong with their work, You're covered.
To do it his way. I would have to build a new door frame. I would have to take out the old door, take it apart, setup shop somewhere on his property, re build his door. Not only that, to do all of the flashing and water shield threshold etc. Then, rehang it before the sun goes down. With a new door, I only have to set up on the spot. I would be hanging the new door by 10:00 am. Don't get me wrong. I could do it his way in spades, But it isn't logical. I would be expected to charge him less. If I did it his way. People don't get it. I hope He gets what he wants.
The only thing the guy would have saved was the new paint on the door.
"I was born in the country, razed in the city, I'm a natural born shaker from my hips to the ground"
Edited 8/9/2002 11:10:30 PM ET by Edgar76b
Thanks for the advice. My thoughts are very much like your own.
See ya,
Mark
The age and type of the door set is not clear to me, Mark. I do a lot of restoration on older homes where it is important to preserve the "antique" value of the door. My advice would depend on whether this is the situation or whether it is a more modern setup. I believe this later to be the case because older french doors usually don't have this 'patio door' fixed configuration.
Sorry about the timeline...This home is only 15 years old at the most. Craftsmanship was not the top priority of the original contractor and I believe it to be the root of the problem. I've already gotten some advice on encouraging a full replacement.
We have some beautiful older homes in the Richmond, VA area and if I come across a restoration question I'd like to drop you a line.
Thanks,
Mark
Since it's modern, I'd probably change out the whole thing too.Excellence is its own reward!
Mark, depending on the size of area that you have to repair, the "wood filler" option may not be as horrible as you might believe. Since it sounds like a painted jamb, this is especially true. I do a LOT of dry rot repairs, structural and cosmetic. One of the keys is to remove all of the rotted wood, get to where you have solid wood. Depending on the area you can drill holes and inject epoxy, or saturate the area with epoxy prior to building up/fairing the area. There are a lot of great epoxies on the market, and a lot of "fillers" that can be added to get the consistency that you need. A lot of products that have been used in the marine industry are now finding new uses in home repair, like West System epoxies and products. With some experience you can make repairs that are pretty incredible, and often deliver for less than any other method. Many of these products are easily sandable for anywhere from a few hours to a few days, but then become much harder than the surrounding wood.
This is NOT a cheapie repair that won't last either. After some educating I have no problem with local inspectors regarding structural repairs of this nature. Of course with any rot repair, as you've pointed out, you need to address the "why" of the problem and take measures to correct it.
In areas where access is a challenge and you have structural pest damage using epoxy techniques can really save time and money and provide a viable solution.
Thanks for the advice. I've heard alot about epoxy repairs and it sounds like a very viable option.
Thanks again,
Mark
I am a great fan of using epoxy materials to repair damaged wood. However, when I have to build up part of a surface, I still haven't gotten the knack of getting it absolutely smooth without a lot of work. The epoxy wants to stick to the spreader/putty knife/whatever so that I end up with ripples and even something resembling a Dairy Queen cone... Someone suggested using (I think) wax paper on a board to allow pressing the epoxy into shape without sticking. Anyone have any sure fire techniques for getting a good epoxy finish without lots of SurForm, grinding, sanding to get the surface looking good?
Casey, with a lot of epoxies you are correct about it being extremely difficult to tool. This seems especially true of any of the styrene based products like anything resembling bondo. As you're no doubt aware, these products can easily be cut and shaped until they really set, usually in about three hours depending on temperature.
For locations where a fair surface is more critical I always use West System epoxy. You can thicken it with wood flour or their microbaloons or colodial silica, or any number of available fillers. It is much easier to work with once you get the knack of how much filler to add to avoid sag, and it does not stick to tools anything like the other products. Of course it helps if you keep the tool clean while you're working with it, as the mixture starts thickening on the tool it will make working the material less neat. With West you can choose how fast of a hardner to mix with also, which can be very helpful. You can speed up set time by using their faster curing hardner. They have pumps available that make getting the correct ratios a snap.
West has a free publication that is on using their system for wooden boat repair, but it is very helpful in learning ways to use it for many things. I started using it restoring and repairing wooden boats, but over the years have found I use it for so much more. Have a stubborn chair rung that all the fancy glues haven't been able to hold? Epoxy that baby and never worry about it again. Unthickened epoxy flows very nicely, and with all of the fillers available it is extremely versatile.
I have not used that much of the Bondo type filler and the epoxy fillers that I have used have not had to been shapped.So take this with a grain of salt.
But LAYER the material. If you are working with smaller amounts it is less likely to sag and to "go off" from it's own heat.
Bring the surface upto 1/8 - 1/4" if fimal. Then the last layer is thin and mcuh easier to work.
I used Bondo UV about 5 years ago on an old mill with whitoak sills. There was water damage, mainly because it was left un painted. I cleared out all the damaged wood. I used Flat head Brass 2 inch screws, as anchors, Leaving about 1/4' to 3/8" Proud of the wood. It depends on How deep your Hole is. Smaller screws work too. Then, I poked a few 1/4'' holes in the good part of the hole. I pressed the the filler in to the holes. As an attempt to Help it bond better. It looked great. It worked really well too, It's been about 5 years. There is one spot, that is starting to lift and seperate. It is on the Northwest gable end. I think that particular side, of any house will always be a problem. No matter what you do. Especially, when there is no overhang, ."I was born in the country, razed in the city, I'm a natural born shaker from my hips to the ground"
All this talk of bondp and fillers is good enough for some things. I use a lot of it, in it's place.
There is a judgement call to be made on site, tho, whether it is the best way to go. For an antique door worth saving and hard to replicate to match thed others in the house, it is almost a definite and that is why I asked about what kind of situation before replying. Small repairs are OK with it too.
The reason I suspect this will be better done with a replacement unit is as follows:
Nine will get you ten this is a Pella or other poor quality unit to start with. I have seen no end of similar trouble cropping up in Pellas of that vintage. Marvin had its own problems several years back too, even though theirs is a better product to start with. Govt control of all VOCs restricted the industry to some expereimental preservatives at that time, whjile growth in all industries was rampant.
Add to this the fact that we have a homeowner with poor maintainence skills and schedule.
And a poor design coupled with a possibly poor installation.
Couple all this together and you are only treating the symptom with an epoxy patch.
Replace the unit and you have an opportunity to make it all right, maybe even discovering rotten studs and sills that need repair.
Part of this equation is the variable, How deep is the customers pocketbook and what is the extebnt of their willingness to support thorough work.
All these things must be determined by the man on site, in the context of his future reputation.Excellence is its own reward!
Yea piffin,
I somewhat agree with you. Went over to a guys house to check out his front entry door. The jambs had a significant amount of termite damage. I told him it would be best to replace the unit and install a prehung. But in the case of a antique door, I think its a judgement call on How much money the HO wants to spend. This is America and He could if he wants to spend the money have a door and jamb custom made to match the orginal. But if cost is a consideration then repair may be the way to go. Ive used the bondo for termite but I definately need to check out the epoxy.
Darkworksite4: When the job is to small for everyone else, Its just about right for me"
Edited 8/13/2002 7:38:04 PM ET by Ron Teti
My company does a lot of dry rot repair, both structural and cosmetic. Replacement is in many cases NOT the best solution, regardless of cost. In older homes especially, lifting a load enough to replace structural members can cause other problems and damage. Utilizing proper techniches, which does not neccessarily mean building up an 1/8" at a time, an epoxy repair is not any type of bandaid or temporary repair. West System, and other epoxies will outlast the wood around them by quite some time. If it is a pest caused problem, that needs to be addressed to avoid further damage certainly, as do any environmental considerations that led to pest infestation.
Using inferior products, like those offered by Minwax, or actually using bondo, will give inferior results. You don't achieve any penetration or saturation of the wood fibres In that case you have provided only a temporary solution. Using proper epoxy application techniques and providing saturation and a surface for later added thickened epoxy to key in to you have a permanent solution.
Our single biggest customer for dry rot repairs is the federal goverment on properties that they own. I'm sure that you're all aware of how the feds operate, no quick fix bandaids typically allowed. We are recognized in our area as the leading contractor for such repairs, especially structural. Our area probably has more dry rot than anywhere else in the country, it is something we work on almost every week. In the case of pest/rot inspectors it took some time to educate them. We can save customers thousands of dollars. We just did a job where there was some minor rot and beetle (anebole) damage on several posts. We dug out the loosest of wood, saturated the area with epoxy (not thickened), drilled holes around the area in to good wood and injected more epoxy. We faired the area with some epoxy thickened with colodia silica, sanded it, and were done. On three posts that would have required load lifting and have cost about $600 each to replace, we charged $550 for the entire job. And the best part as the contractor is that we don't have any risk of popping a window or heaving of hardwood floors or any of the other associated problems or headaches.
If someone does enough of these types of repairs, or wants to, it is a matter of becoming educated about the materials that are available and how to best utilize them.
It isn't a fix for everything. If you have a bad window that has caused stud decay you still need to open the wall and replace the studs and whatever else needs done. In the right situation though, epoxy can be an excellent tool, and provide better results than can be achieved in other ways.
The more expensive the door, the more correct the job should be . Unfortunately, that is a grey and controversial area too. For example: when you are talking about Historical Restoration. You always want to opt for saving the artifact. Everybody has there own opinion of what is too far gone.
2 Problems Not everyone considers their home an artifact. And the customer is always right.
I always feel bad when I can't tell the customer, what they want to hear. I am afraid they think I just don't want a "Small" Job. which can translate into negative word of mouth. I shoulda been a public servant ain't!
In a case of a pre hung door unit. You don't always have a way to tell , why the the jambs are getting wet. Untill you take it out.
I worked in a development about 8 years old , everydoor had sidelights. The door Jambs at the bottom on both sides of every door on that block . No matter what the exposure was rotted. How do you fix something like that. and why did it happen.
The only pssibility I can see is an improper installation. No flashing etc. There was also no overhang. The door was mounted out with the siding or the brick veneer. Some doors had the foam pilasters and the lintel overhead. My only conclusion was that the water was blowing in, getting behind and laying in between the door jamb and the sidelight jamb. Soaking from the inside out.
The home owner does not want to hear about it, or pay to replace the door. Which is the only way to stop the problem. And Even then it is not that simple, with the flashing etc.
If you could take apart the door, when it was out. Then remove the side lights re-hang the 8 year door on new jambs. Add the old sidelights and re build it the same way. It stilll won't save you any money. Try to explain that. Time is Money too. Then in another 6 mos., when the seal blows out on one of the old side lights you will be replaceing the entire unit for free.
And if you add expensive epoxy to wet door jamb without fixing the problem, It won't work either.
Maybe the real problem is Bad quality of Jamb material and a bad factory prime Job. I swear everydoor had exactly the same problem.
"I was born in the country, razed in the city, I'm a natural born shaker from my hips to the ground"
Edited 8/14/2002 11:21:27 PM ET by Edgar76b
Edited 8/14/2002 11:23:14 PM ET by Edgar76b
You ever run in to that beach Bum? anybody? what would you suggest?"I was born in the country, razed in the city, I'm a natural born shaker from my hips to the ground"
I see a lot of rotted door jambs here in the sometimes soggy northwest. I live on the beach, and the rain can come down sideways, blown by 100mph winds. It is amazing where water will get in. It can blow under shingles and run UP the sheathing (blown by wind) to leak in some unlikely seeming spot.
It's hard to tell without seeing the doors, and the installation. Here is my take on the situation, especially with small overhangs (gosh I hate that, what happened to REAL eaves?) Often when the damage is at the bottom of the jambs it is due to moisture running down the jambs, like anything down hill, where is the dampest spot? It is the bottom. Therefore the bottom is far more likely to incur much more frequent and severe wet/drying cycles, which leads to rot. The repair depends on the severity and the location of the rot, and if the hinge mounting location is involved. Typically the hinge location is protected because of it's location, and you are dealing with the wood that is outward from the door. If it is very advanced it is possible that the hinge can become involved. Most bottom hinges are about 7" from the threshold.
I have frequently cut out the rotten portion of the trim, including the good wood. Often when you are fabricating a piece to replace what you have cut out you need to also make a channel for the weatherstrip to fit in to. Saturate all surfaces of the replacement piece with unthickened epoxy prior to installing it. Be sure to sand off the amine blush that will form prior to painting. This type of repair only works of course on painted jambs. If the rot isn't severe, you can dig out the rotten wood and build the area fair with thickened epoxy.
When building in a severe environment, which I do, here is a preventative step. I use either Simpson or ThermaTru doors. Simpson doors are made close to home, so I really like using them. The ThermaTru fiberclassic has been a great door here though. Order your exterior doors unprimed, you can get them. I think the reason many manufacturers don't do this is because they don't want us to see how many finger jointed pieces each jamb is made up of. Coat all jamb surfaces with unthickened epoxy, saturate the material. Let set for a day for the amine blush to form. Sand away the blush, and as with any project, use whatever sandpaper is appropriate for the finish you desire. Prime the jambs and then paint them. They will NEVER rot. IT doesn't matter how much water they come in contact with, it can't get to the wood. From exterior appearances you would never know that the jamb is any different. It is one of the things that I take a picture of to show customers how our product differs from everyone elses. We're talking a couple of extra hours of labor per door though.
When hinge mounting areas are involved I will typcially, but not always, replace the unit, and do it as I've outlined above.
I have a wooden boat that sits moored in the Pacific, it is painted, but it is the epoxy that is protecting her, an thousands of other modern wood boats like her. I tell you guys, once you start using the stuff you will get excited about the possibilities. When you come up with a great way to use it, let me know.
Maybe when all the door companies find out we are all recoating jambs with epoxy, they will wise up and sell us something made to last...
or maybe not.
It sounds like a good idea.
Another thing I've seen more times than I care to remember, and could apply here,
They buy a place with a small landing and steps outside the door.
They buy a DIY deck kit and stitch it onto the house. Instead of keeping it four inches below the threshold, like the landing was, they build it at the same level as the interior floor. Now they've got a deck running the length of the house and the roof dripping water onto it.
Guess what the splashback does to the sills and the sheathing? They don't think of a roof gutter until I point it out along with an estimate for four grand or so plus new deck.Excellence is its own reward!
piffin you make an excellent point.
In the quest for the almighty dollar practices that hinder the longevity of the structure are becoming more commonplace. In some cases it is common mistakes, not the quest for profits, as your example points out. In other cases it is someone figuring out how only having 12" eaves, or some times less, can save a lot of money when it's averaged over hundreds of homes. I'm not going to name any names, there are plenty, but I believe it is some of the mega builders that are perpetuating some of these horrible practices. From what I can pencil out it's only a builder of a mega scale that really benefits from some of these outrageous cuts. We small builders probably don't care too much if we make another $400 on a house by cutting corners that we know affect the longevity of what we've built.
Exellence IS it's own reward, and I hope there will always be people that appreciate the differences that a builder that gives a damn can make. I've gone to taking a LOT of pictures and putting together a book for each home, showing step by step how it was built, and pointing out some differences that I'm proud of that make a difference, but may not be readily apparent to a casual observer. Where I build things like how the house wrap is fastened around the windows makes a huge difference. There are places all over that have rain blown around the windows and house wrap and have rotted sheathing and framing after a few years. How about poorly applied vinyl siding? I've seen more of that than I care to think about. What about those jokes they call porches, look at the house on a dry day and the unsuspecting buyer has no idea what little protection it offers, or what the runoff from it might cause. People are still using substandard metal doors here at the coast. It isn't always the abrasion from wind blown sand and salt air that get them. Often it's the condensation that builds up and collects inside, causing them to rust from the inside out. There is so much that the average buyer doesn't realize when they're looking at the pretty new house. Energy ratings are a great thing, I think, but not enough to help people realize what they really might be getting. I'm depressed by a lot of the home inspections that I read, not pest reports so much, but Joe home inspector that really doesn't have a clue. Scare people to death over nothing, and overlook major flaws, all the while most of them have no liability over what they are paid for their inspection. "Oh the foundation really did fail? So sorry, here's your $300 back"
Sorry to rant, I am proud of a lot of craftsmen that I know, but dismayed over a lot of the product that is currently on the market. People that get a 30 year mortgage should be able to expect the house to last that long.
I'm starting to like you more and more, bum!
I gave up on Therma tru though. The composite skin is a good idea but the oveeral quality of theri doors is bottom of the barrel IMHOExcellence is its own reward!
I haven't had any problems with Therma Tru. What type of problems have you experienced? I've mostly used the Fiberclassic.
Truth be told, I love wood doors. They are just too impractical for an exterior door in this climate. We paint the Simpson's or Therma Tru's with a small HVLP unit and get a good look with that.
Quality isn't expensive, it's invaluable.
Beach, where do you get West System Epoxy? Would it be a good idea to use it on new bare wood windows, too? I'm considering starting with Jasco's Termin-8 on those, could the epoxy be applied over that?
Thanks --
-- J.S.
You can get it at most large marine supply stores, and an increasing number of building supply places.
Their web site is http://www.gougeon.com.
It is best to apply the epoxy to untreated wood to allow the best penetration. They provide some free publications that are really worthwhile. You can often get them at larger marine supplies, like West Marine (no connection between them and the epoxy folks). I have never utilized West System on exterior wood windows, though it is an excellent idea and I see no reason why it wouldn't offer excellent results.
Epoxy can be utilized for things other than painted surfaces as well. I have seen some gorgeous wooden driftboats that haven't been painted. The only catch is that you need to add some type of UV protection additive to the epoxy as it offers very little on it's own.
There are other good systems, like System 3, I've just always had excellent experiences with West System. When I've had specific questions they have been great about answering them. I've e-mailed questions and had a quick reply saying someone in their engineering type department will be responding shortly. Their customer service has always been superior.
I bet if you e-mailed the folks at West and told them the chemical composition of the Jasco product that they could tell you about compatibility. Let me know what you find out.
Even if you are going to use a clear finish you can coat the end grain of the jams with epoxy. That is commonly done on the feet of outdoor furiniture.
And the end grain is where most of the mositure is sucked up in to the wood anyway.
If you're going to use some type of clear finish you don't need to stop at the end grain, you can do everything. You need to make sure the finish that you're using is compatible with the expoxy,and obviously a penetrating finish isn't going to work well. The cabin of my wooden boat is finished with spar varnish over expoxy saturated wood. The expoxy was slightly tinted to get the golden color that we wanted. There is a boat builder in Olympia WA named Sam Devlin, he is rather famous. His web site has some pretty good pictures.
Beach, thanks for the reference. I've ordered their literature and sent the Jasco question.
-- J.S.
Hi John, Let me know what they tell you. I think you'll enjoy their products.