*
I think Gabe Martel is project manager for a diaper factory because he has **** for brains. If I wanted stucco I would use stucco. If I wanted brick or cultured stone I would use it. But there millions of home around the world with the same thing why not be different. I have been a carpenter for quite some time and I was always told that stucco is like finishing a concrete sidewalk but only on a vertical surface so why not try something. These panels are only made of masonary sand with fiberglass reinforcing with a stamped concrete finish. Weight I don’t feel would be a big issue. Basically all I would be doing is instead of a 3/4″ tradional stucco coat it would be an 1 1/4″. Instead of doing a scratch coat, brown coat and finish coat I would do a scratch coat and replace the other two with a my panels. Thanks for your help. I wish that all the other responses weren’t so narrow minded, they proved a long time ago that the world isn’t flat so they should get out of the stone age.
Discussion Forum
Discussion Forum
Up Next
Video Shorts
Featured Story
This builder says there's nothing like an in-person event where you can learn from luminaries, talk with tool and material manufacturers, and network with your peers.
Featured Video
Highlights
"I have learned so much thanks to the searchable articles on the FHB website. I can confidently say that I expect to be a life-long subscriber." - M.K.
Fine Homebuilding Magazine
Fine Home Building
Follow
-
Fine Homebuilding
Dig into cutting-edge approaches and decades of proven solutions with total access to our experts and tradespeople.
Start Free Trial Now -
GBA Prime
Get instant access to the latest developments in green building, research, and reports from the field.
Start Free Trial Now
Replies
*
Mike ---
Yes, he's married!! No, he's not an imposter. He just can't type (a carpenter, can't type, go figure) :) And yes, he ran the idea by me, which is WHY he came here. He wasn't looking for a blessing. It isn't a "mainstream" idea, nobody manufactures what he wants, and he just wanted to find out if anyone else had ever seen or heard of something like it, or perhaps had done it themselves. The world's a big place, seemed like a good idea at the time. Obviously, he doesn't want this to ruin our house.
What can I say ? ... obviously I don't keep him busy enough around here with the "honey-do" list!!! :)
And can all of you actually tell me that you have NEVER had an off-the-wall idea? You've all just followed the pack, never trying anything different, never tried to re-invent the wheel?? Not even a little bit? Hmmmm ....
*
Sorry tornado, never built a diaper factory, but if I ever did, I would certainly contact you for the inside scoop.
If I have **** for brains, you would be well advised to get some of the same because they pay me a f**k of a lot more than you'll ever make, designing precast for your house.
Because you're not an accomplished carpenter, you don't appreciate that weight is an issue with just about everything that we design and build.
From your original post, there was no doubt in our minds that you were blowing bubbles in order to hear yourself.
It wasn't guys like you that got us out of the stone age, it was guys like us that watched you get run over by trying to stop an avalanche and had enough sense not to try it.
Gabe
*Dear Mrs Tornado:of course we've all had off-the-wall ideas.. that's why i recognized it for what it was..just do yourself a favor...draw an elevation and perspective of what you want to do and then you can tell if you still want to do it..if you do.. do itjust don't expect me to tell you it's a good idea.. it ain't
*Here ya'll go... wall panels
*
Gabe, it's too bad they don't pay you a f**ing lot of money to be a decent human being. Obviously money doesn't have anything to do with personality.
Tornado's question was just that ... period. A simple question, just like 1000 others on this message board. No hidden agenda, just a genuine, honest question, which he couldn't have asked more plainly. What word or sentence was it in his original post, exactly, that offended you so much? Between his original post and yours, the latter is the more insulting, offensive and uncommonly rude. If anyone is "blowing bubbles" just to hear himself, it's you. I must have missed the part on this site where it said that publishing credentials and financial statements was necessary to take part in this board and to be given simple respect. Constructive criticism is one thing, and we are certainly open to that, but your responses have been quite another thing entirely.
Thanks for making this experience so uplifting. Your patience and kindness have been remarkable.
*
You're right, it was a simple question from a simple person with multiple personalities.
Don't bother sending me anymore E-mails claiming to be a business owner working on 20 to 30 million dollar projects.
Surely, someone with your business knowhow, money and influence, would be able to hire a designer, architect and engineer to design your new home with all the precast your little hearts would desire and not bother with us.
Like I said,
get a life.
Gabe
*OK folks, take it outside if you must go down the path of personal attacks. I see no reason for the hostility that this thread has developed. It is possible to criticize an unusual idea without becoming personal. It is also possible to suffer personal criticism without sinking to the same level. In fact, here in Connecticut, this is known as "mature behavior". Let's check our egos at the door and discuss some ideas.Thanks for participating.Andy
*
Ralph, I'm not offensive at all, ain't a carpenter, nor do I pretend to be. I like learning things, though, and one of my favorite ways is by asking questions.
That looks like a freeway embankment. If it is, wouldn't that be quite a bit different than a house wall?
Dave
Anyone feels the need to call me words with stars in 'em, feel free.
*
Dear Mr. and Mrs. Tornado,
Yours was a legitimate question, and I am a bit ashamed at the kinds of responses you got. Mike Mahan's response was thoughtful and I appreciate that. While it is always good to keep an eye towards the lessons of others' experience, new adventures keep us fresh. Building only on precedent means that someone else somewhere went through what you are trying to go through now, and new ideas are never tried. If new ideas fail, well, dang it. The world won't end. The best we can do is enter into the adventure with as much knowledge as possible, to make as educated a decision as possible.
Your strategy seems complete enough. I would guess that with a moisture barrier beneath the sheetrock, and tyvek over the sheathing, one more layer would be a non-issue. Good luck. You'll be the stronger if it works. If it were my project, I wouldn't hesitate trying it.
*Dave and others,The post wasn't meant to be offensive - maybe just a little tongue-in-cheek and thought provoking.Yes it is a picture of MSE(Mechanically Stabilized Earth)Technology but it is also a wall of individual concrete panels which is in line with the original post.These panels come in different shapes and reliefs and if you apply bricklaying techniques, which include an extended foundation for support and tiebacks to the main framing, interlocking panels such as these would be viable as a facing. Perhaps more suited, in many minds, to the commercial look rather than residential, the panel idea still has merit. I'm sure when cut face block was first used in residential construction some heads turned but if vinyl siding, although frowned upon by many, can work, as well as phoney board and batten (plywood) or ICF's and whatever is used to cover them, then why not concrete panels.Perhaps I should say that his bland original 16x16 panels did not appeal to me so I posted an idea that could be a little more pleasing to the eye if the right panels are chosen.
*one day somone built a curved lintel from little pieces of stone. an arch. one day someone piled stone high enough for a second floor. two story house. one day someone built a house out of little slivers of wood. stick framing. someone made a lot of money building stick frame houses and covering them with cement. built thousands. cut down forests. put down guys trying to invent an alternative to building houses w/ sticks full of knots. said it was tried and true. but a 2x4 today doesn't have much in common w/ a 2x4 30 years ago.
*hey.. it's his house.. he came here looking for advice.. the advice is b don't do it..all you bleeding hearts that want to encourage him and mrs . ((torando)).. to do it .. are not exactly thinking with your right brain...this is a dumb idea.. could he make it work.. yes.. but why ?mechanicaly.. it's overkill.. leakwise it's asking for trouble.... it's got 500 feet of caulked joints to maintain...because they won't be mortar joints they're moving too much.. he's introducing a steel lintel that is going to rust... he still has no idea how he's going to flash his windows .. or doors or other penetrations..or what he's going to do about the water that gets behind his panels..it's an attempt at adapting a commercial technique ((curtain wall panels)) to residential construction..even if you like the LOOK.. it should be done in stucco.. as was mentioned..so get off it.. if you don't like the tone of some of the replies.. so be it.. but don't be encouraging the absurd..AND... why are so many of you hiding behind FALSE posting names and impersonating some other posters...seems like you don't have the conviction to back up your words.... i even noticed that ((babe mardell)) was back..now there's a blast from the past...the original mr.cheap shot....b but hey, whadda i no ?b but
*
Thanks, Ralph! There has been quite a bit of freeway construction here around Dallas, and they use a lot of slick patterns like you showed. A lot nicer than big ol' squares, to be sure.
Tornado, I wonder if a smaller panel size than 16x16 would be more in keeping with a "standard" residential style?
Dave
*
Mike,
Since, I seem to be one of the "bleeding hearts that want to encourage him and mrs . ((torando)).. to do it[sic]", [no make that the ONLY bleeding heart,] I must not be thinking with my right brain. So you, who apparently are thinking with your right brain, can answer some questions for me.
1. If I use precast clay units (i.e. bricks) will there be less movement in the wall than if I use precast concrete units? Will all the mortar fall out?
2. If I use precast clay panels (i.e. tiles) on horizontal wood framing (i.e. a floor) will there be less or a problem than on a wall? Will all the grout fall out?
3. If I buy precast concrete panels from a company like Ownens Corning (i.e. Cultured Stone) will all the grout fall out? Will I have to caulk all the joints? If not, why not?
4. Should any masonry veneer on wood framing be avoided because of too much moving? If not, why not?
5. What should I do about water that gets behind my stucco? Sould stucco be avoided all together?
6. Name one post in this thread where someone has used a false name.
Now either answer these questions in a civilized fashion or tell me how stupid I am and how much more money you make than me.
*1. Depends on the size and weight of the precast units, type and location of the moment connections and the mortar is not relevant in a precast application, they are typically caulked.2. The original post was using homemade concrete tiles(not clay panels) with no specific location for the connectors and no previous experience on the subject matter. There is a difference between a floor application and an exterior wall application.3. Cultured stones from Owens Corning are not precast panels.4. Masonry veneers are a standard application unlike the original posters scheme.5. Not relevant to the issue.6. TorandoAnd finally, your attachment is not an example of precast on a brick ledge but of a standard stucco and masonry application found everywhere in the world and makes no point.Gabe
*As an aside, my brickyard just started carrying some of the cultured stone products. They look amazing real, and are made of lightweight concrete. The guy there told me it runs in the neighborhood of $5 a sq ft for the faux stone only. You apply it to a scratch coat much the same way you would a thin stone veneer.
*If you're wondering where "tornado" went, thought I should remove the "fake" name! No offense was meant by using it in the first place.It was always my intention to use different sizes for the panels, just seemed easier at the time to use a specific size for my original question.Thanks for all the helpful and thoughtful responses, much appreciated.
*
Following this aside, I just installed about 1000 ft of Cultured
Stone. Fun to do. Went up as advertised. Tremendously happy with the
results. And so is my wife, which is what really counts! My one caveat
is that different companies have different quality products. GET A
SAMPLE before committing. We saw two company's products that we found
aesthetically unacceptable. Then we lit on one that was significantly
more detailed. Huge difference in end result for small cost diff. Get
samples to make sure you're gonna be happy.
*
Mercer,
I think the "fake" names that people are referencing are "Torando" and "Tornado's Wife". It is my assumption that you, Mercer, are not "Torando" and that your wife has not posted. But I've been wrong before.
Rich Beckman
*
Uhhhmmmm, I have a question... if cultured stone isn't a precast product, does it come from Cultured Mountain and is that anywhere near Disneyland??? Which of the seven dwarves do I talk to about chiseling off an order for me?
:)
*Rich, it doesn't get any simpler than this ...FOR THE RECORD ... and since it seems to be such a stumbling block here ... here is the truth, and I'm sorry if you don't believe it."Tornado" is a nickname ... "Mercer" is the real name ... and this IS "the wife", believe it or not. The "wife's" real name is Kathryn. Is there somewhere I have to submit proof? There is no conspiracy here!!If Mercer wasn't "tornado", then the author name on the original post wouldn't have changed.Our apologies, we didn't realize that nicknames weren't allowed here. We were just trying to fix the mistake, but I see now that even that is a mistake!
*I know ... if I send you a picture of the air compressor I'm using as a nightstand, and the wood for my new kitchen cabinets leaning decoratively against the living room wall, will you believe that I'm real??:)
*
Kathryn...
There's a small bit of history on this forum of people signing in with a similar, slightly mis-spelled name of a legitimate user, and posting ridiculous comments designed to start mini-forum wars.
A few here recognize Mercer as Tornado. The first post was from "Mercer", then when the thread started going downhill, additional posts came in from "Tornado" and "Torando". Thus, some were justified in their concerns of an imposter hijacking your thread.
Same with you..."Kathryn", "Kathryn again", etc. It's a bit safer using the same name as once you post for the first time you lock that name in. I'm sure not trying to give you a forum lesson, just a bit of background on why people were suspicious.
As to your project...opinions were asked for, and opinions were given. Some think it will work, others do not. To me it's all in the detailing. I'd prefer to see that amount of weight figured into the original design of the structure and supported to the footings vs hanging it off the structure itself. Flashing/water intrusion details are near impossible to diagnose over the internet, and that should be a major concern for you and your husband. Also, when considering the use of a product as unique as your panels, it's tough to give a green light without really seeing either the concrete panels or the exterior detailing of the your house.
Can you do it? Yes. Can you be successful? Yes. Can you fail? Yes. Do I think it wise to proceed? No. Short-term it may work quite well, but my concerns are with long-term viability of the application. I wish the two of you the best of luck with your project.
Regards,
Mongo
*Cultured stone actually comes from out in Area 51. Rich Beckman can fill you in on all the details......and, the seven dwarves are not available for filling orders...they're in training for the upcoming dwarf tossing competition to be held in their hometown, Seven Hills. Hi Ho (not to be confused with "Hello, Ho"),Mongo
*
Mongo, thanks for the info ... it is genuinely appreciated. I can understand where the concerns came from, but please believe that it was just carelessness in typing that created "tornado" and "torando", and I felt mildly ridiculous posting three messages in one sitting, hence the "kathryn again". My apologies for any confusion caused. The thread did in fact start out from "tornado", and was only changed to Mercer tonight, when we updated the "preferences" form. Quite a comedy of errors, can't seem to get much right here! Will try to be more careful in future.
We are quite honestly not here to create wars. Any inappropriate posts have resulted from knee-jerk anger (KNEE-jerk, as in "instinctive", I am not referring to anyone as a jerk!!), wrong maybe but human at least.
In any event, it was indeed the pros AND cons of the project which we were seeking, and we sincerely appreciate all the thoughts expressed. It has given us invaluable information, which we couldn't find here at home. Thanks to all.
*LOL!!!:)
*
"Mongo"???
Now there's an alias if ever there was one.
*I had to pick something...since you already took my name.
*
Jim,
I'm curious what brand of cultured stone you settled on? My husband and I are considering using Cultured Stone by Stone Products Corporation to cover a new concrete wall on a walkout basement. We are months away from a decision since we are still paying for the new addition/walkout, but any direction, such as the brand you used, would be helpful.
Thanks,
Amy
*It's http://www.culturedstone.com/, the cultured stone brand name. We used the Carolina Ledgestone. We looked at, but did not choose, Coronado. That product didn't have the detailing or variety, in our eyes. Can't remember the names of other products we looked at.
*
Kathryn, we've only begun to investigate cultured stone here in this forum. It's a form of "fast growth" stone which replaces heavier "old growth stone". The CULTURED variety is subjected to classical music, modern dance, and impressionist paintings during its curing process, where fine wines are often intruduced. UNCULTERED stone is more closely associated with domestic beers, NASCAR, and pickup truck repairs. To learn more about the closely-knit relationship of stone, daylight savings time and the human genome, check out the thread on "Old Concrete". You'll then begin to appreciate the depth of knowledge and scope of wisdom available at this forum...
Only a small droplet in this fountain of knowledge, Steve
*All I can say is what I said in my first post on this thread... WOW!!! I can't believe this thread has generated so much passion from what seems a simple proposition. I think it was Mike Mahan who said the detailing will be important. Of course water penetration is a concern with any siding, especially concrete, brick or stone veneer. Gabe (in a response to my earlier post) offered a resonable alternative using stucco techniques often used commercially, but that may not be the look Mercer is after.A lot of people seem to take issue with the weight of these panels. I don't see it. They would weigh 12.5 lbs/sq.ft. or about 22 lbs. each. With only four courses, I can't see the problem. If I'm wrong about this, you could make a light-weight concrete mix and reduce the weight about 40%.Jerry
*
Steve ---
Aaaaahh, I see, Master ... it is clear that I have much to learn here.
:)
Grasshopper.
*
Jerry -- thanks for your help. It was my feeling that the weight of the panels would only fail in shear, and that was the reason for installing the angle iron. The blue-skin on the angle iron would prevent rust I thought. The brick ties were for added support from pulling away from the structure higher on the wall, although I think that applying the panels like wall tile (back-buttered) would probably suffice. I originally suggested the 16"x16" panel as a starting point, to address the weight issue. That would be the maximum size, with smaller variations. If it ended up being too much weight in the final analysis, I would definitely look at a lightweight concrete mix.
As to the moisture problem, because my suggested panels would be denser than cultured stone, it was my concern they would trap moisture against the sheathing. Is cultured stone waterproof or does it just allow the wall to breathe?
*Oops!!! Sorry, my above post was intended as a joke, and was in no way a reference to the user "Grasshopper", whom I just discovered elsewhere on this site. Some people's kids just never learn ...
*
I have a question about using concrete panels on the exterior of a house.
I would like to place 16" x 16" x 1" precast concrete panels on the exterior of my house. My concerns are that my wood frame will rot over time. My exterior would be as follows. 1/2" drywall, vapour barrier, R20 insulation, 2x6 studs, 3/8 sheathing, tyvek house wrap, metal lath, scratch coat, 16" x 16" x 1" precast concrete panels (sealed with a sealer). The panels would rest on a steel angle iron bolted to the foundation wall. Each panel would be placed on the wall the as you would tile on a floor complete with a grout line. Each panel is also attached with brick ties which have been cast in the panel. The total height would be only 4' and rest of the wall would be stucco. I live in a northern climate and my other concern would be the winter with freeze thaw cycle. Am I way out in left field. Has anybody seen an application of this kind or a similar thing
*Finish your plaster of paris kitchen counter before tackling this. Follow this with a glazed grocery bag roof. Hey, we only live once.
*Sorry Tornado,but you're so far into left field that you're playing on the road and your team is at home.Can't help those that won't help themselves.Gabe
*tornado... what they are saying in other words is.. don't do it..if it ain't been done before there is a good reason..what is wrong with using a conventional siding system..there are only a couple hundred of them...don't go for 101..b but hey, whadda i no ?
*I really thought I might get some helpful responses but so far all I see is flak. I was hoping that someone somewhere with a grain of intelligence could tell me if it has been done, or why it hasn't. I've got a lot of spare time out here in left field, and inquiring minds want to know.
*It wasn't flak, it was your answer. It's a dumbass idea that would be a waste of money and time to do and a waste of time to even ponder doing. If you won't beleive those who do this for a living, good luck with your project.I've done all kinds of projects involving pre-cast on commercial construction and yours wouldn't be practical.But hey, it's your house (I hope)and your never going to move or sell it (I hope) so, do install makeshift precast concrete panels on the lower half of your home and if you're real lucky it won't fall off the walls for a few years.Gabe
*Wow,I must be missing something?? I don't see the big deal; his "siding" is unconventional, but there must be a way to do it right. It would be similar to a brick veneer or stucco system. He's only running four courses of the concrete thingies (over a scratch coat, on a ledge). Gabe,With your commercial experience, I know you can help this guy avert disaster ;-)Tornado,I don't have a lot of experience in this area, but I would use felt instead of Tyvek.Good Luck,Jerry
*jerry... what ur missing is the absurdity of it..this is the classic pack-rat problem..i got these panels.. where can i use 'em ?on the front of my house.. i'll mix stucco and 3 courses of 16x16 cement tile... with high maintenance grout lines.. resting on a steel ledger that will rust and stain.. with fitting problems at every penetration... window and door...for what ?bring the stucco to the bottom and use the panels in a patio for paving blocks.. or use em to line the inside of a dumpster..or put 'em on the front of your house so you can increase it's curb appeal...it's a house..not a guard tower at a prison... or a white tower restaurant...
*Hi Jerry,You could get the same effect by using smooth finished stucco, with a different colour stain and cutting a square 3/8" reveal to form faux blocks.This eliminates structural loading, angles on the foundation, differences in the lines of the wall to the foundation, trying to properly attach a ton of concrete to the side of a wood framed house and not to mention the rain screen problems and the effects of trapped moisture behind the exterior finish.Like Mike said, you shouldn't try to use any material lying around to side your house with. Had a local fella who build a shed out of used whisky bottles and mortar, was fun to see but I would never advise anyone to build a house out of used bottles.If this fella is really serious about what he wants on the outside of his home, the best advise that I would give him is to contact a local engineer and have him design the wall structure, from scratch.Gabe
*It's the combination that strikes me as an issue - materials that move and tolerate movement well (wood frame construction) and materials that don't move or tolerate movement well (steel angle and masonry).In a commercial setting, it's much more likely that the i heavy (20-lb) panels would be backed by solid masonry.Jeff
*Tornado and Jerry:Think about this: Weather building or buying a home, it's going to be one of the largest investments of your life. Even if you are constructing it entirely yourself to save money, the investment in time will likely be one of the largest projects of your life… and most everybody's time is valuable - right? That said, why risk such a large investment with "contrived" construction methods that "look good on paper" or are solid "in theory". Stick with tried and true building techniques and materials that you know will work properly, based on, if not your own, other peoples successes. I know, I'm just a conservative who's unable to, "think out side the box." Thing is, I'm proud of what I build, and know that most all of it will outlast me!
*Tornado,What you want to do is nothing out of the ordinary. If you had suggested a brick veneer, stone veneer, or synthetic (fake) stone you would have been inundated with details on just how to do it. But God forbid you suggest using "precast concrete panels". Nobody ever heard of such a thing. Precast clay panels (i.e. brick) are okay, as are precast light weight concrete fake stone panels (i.e. synthetic stone). Your angle iron is almost redundant as the panels will be adhered to the stucco as well as having the mechanical (brick tie) fasteners. (I assume that these panels are decorative and to be custom cast, and not some junk you have hanging around.) You may want to consider flashing the top as you might a brick or stone wainscot. The freeze/thaw cycle might be a problem, but no more so than with any other masonry veneer. With proper care you will not have any more problem with wood rot than you would with stucco or brick veneer finish. What did you have in mind for the panels?
*How is a brick tie on a large panel nailed to the underlying structure? Or is this a wet mud set vertical panel, kind of like a bathroom wall tile?joe d
*I think Gabe Martel is project manager for a diaper factory because he has **** for brains. If I wanted stucco I would use stucco. If I wanted brick or cultured stone I would use it. But there millions of home around the world with the same thing why not be different. I have been a carpenter for quite some time and I was always told that stucco is like finishing a concrete sidewalk but only on a vertical surface so why not try something. These panels are only made of masonary sand with fiberglass reinforcing with a stamped concrete finish. Weight I don't feel would be a big issue. Basically all I would be doing is instead of a 3/4" tradional stucco coat it would be an 1 1/4". Instead of doing a scratch coat, brown coat and finish coat I would do a scratch coat and replace the other two with a my panels. Thanks for your help. I wish that all the other responses weren't so narrow minded, they proved a long time ago that the world isn't flat so they should get out of the stone age.
*hey torando... huw cum your query is ((tornado)) with an email address and this post is ((tarando)) with no email address ?are u an imposter just trying to start a fight ? or do you legitimately believe what you just posted ?where did you get the panels ? and how are you going to fit them around the details on your house ? did you do some scale drawings to see how the finished project will look ? maybe even just the front elevation ? are you married ? did you run this by your wife ?is this going to increase the resale value or decrease it ?if you want to do it.. do it.. why come here looking for a blessing..?