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Faulty Neutral Question

pinko | Posted in Energy, Heating & Insulation on July 30, 2008 09:09am

Sparkies and anyone w/ electrical knowledge—I’ve got a question.

I’ve ran a leg from an existing exterior outlet (which was abandoned, outlet removed, and had it’s LIVE, uncapped wires hanging out of the wall) to a new exterior light which I am installing (un-switched, run on a photocell). The hot wire from the original outlet was live, as I said and my light tester lit when connecting the leads between the neutral and the hot. I install the light, and get nada. Socket tested hot. Bulb tests good. But no light. I check the voltage now betw. neutral and hot and get a reading of about 88 volts. I checked voltage betw. hot and ground and get a full 120v. I determine the neutral is bad.

But how is it bad? The 88v I read appears legit (not ‘phantom’) as it does light up the little diode tester, albeit a lot dimmer than the ground to hot. I assume the low voltage is not enough to light a 100w bulb, however, which is why I get nothing there.

Any theories on how this is happening? In any event, is my only fix to pull a new neutral from somewhere else?

I appreciate any help.

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Replies

  1. DanH | Jul 30, 2008 09:40pm | #1

    It's hard to say. If you're getting the 88 volts with no load (lamp not connected) then you're likely seeing "phantom" voltage due to wire capacitance. If you're getting the 88 volts with the lamp connected (and the photocell trying to turn it on) then it's more likely to be a "sorta bad" connection somewhere.

    In any event, the problem is likely at a connection somewhere, not the wires in the walls. You need to figure out what circuit the outlet is on and trace it back to the panel, checking each connection along the way.

    (One possibility that comes to mind is that this exterior outlet may have been on a GFCI breaker at one time, and the breaker was swapped out for a regular one without connecting the neutral.)

    It is an ironic habit of human beings to run faster when we have lost our way. --Rollo May
    1. JTC1 | Jul 31, 2008 12:05am | #2

      (One possibility that comes to mind is that this exterior outlet may have been on a GFCI breaker at one time, and the breaker was swapped out for a regular one without connecting the neutral.)

      THAT is some good thinkin'!

      I can see that happening especially by the same "electrician" that would leave the uncapped / exposed wires hanging out of the outside box.

      May still come down to tracing the circuit back to the panel, but I would start at the panel.

      Find the breaker which feeds the hot and check it's cable connections inside the panel first.

      Old panel markings (if they are present) may help in the search for the breaker.

      Jim Never underestimate the value of a sharp pencil or good light.

    2. pinko | Jul 31, 2008 12:06am | #3

      Thanks, Dan for the reply.Yes, I'm getting 88 volts w/ the lamp disconnected. In fact, I used a little cheapy bulb tester and when connected to the hot and neutral, the light does light up, but dimly, so the neutral can't be totally disconnected at the panel (or anywhere else). Must be a 'sorta bad connection'. This is a weird circuit as well, connecting only THIS ext outlet to a back bathroom outlet (GFCI) and also to a grill exhaust fan on the porch. There are 3 adjacent ext. outlets on that wall (it's a covered porch) and they are all on a different circuit (strange). I don't know if pulling all the outlets on this circuit (even if I could find them all) would be easier than just running a new wire. Btw, if the 88 volts is real, would that not be enough to even light a standard 100w bulb at all?

      1. DanH | Jul 31, 2008 12:20am | #4

        Even if the 88V is "real", there is some resistance in the line that is reducing this voltage, and it's proportional to the current draw -- the more current you draw, the more voltage drop across that resistance, and the lower the voltage you'll measure. A 6W Christmas bulb may light brightly but a 100W bulb won't even glow.
        It is an ironic habit of human beings to run faster when we have lost our way. --Rollo May

      2. User avater
        BillHartmann | Jul 31, 2008 01:12am | #5

        "Yes, I'm getting 88 volts w/ the lamp disconnected. In fact, I used a little cheapy bulb tester and when connected to the hot and neutral, the light does light up, but dimly, so the neutral can't be totally disconnected at the panel (or anywhere else). Must be a 'sorta bad connection'."You are talkin about a little Neon bulb (and a series resitor).Those don't tank much to get a glow out of them.I can connect one side to a hot and just grab the other end in my hand and it will have light glow.So much likely you have an open neutral. And the 88 volts is a pantom voltage.And ues 88 volts on a bulb you should see it glow, but very, very dim..
        .
        A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.

        1. pinko | Jul 31, 2008 05:25am | #7

          Thanks everyone for the help.."You are talkin about a little Neon bulb (and a series resitor)."Exactly. I'll have to try the holding the other lead trick to light it up. Sounds indeed like an open neutral if I can do that with my bare hand while standing on a concrete pad.. Interesting.It may very well be phantom voltage, then. I wish I knew a definitive way of confirming this ghost physics--- as it has haunted me forever.Maddog, I had thought about taking out the photocell, but as I said, the hot leg is definitely hot (measures 120 volts to a good ground), and as the photocell only interrupts the hot leg, not the neutral, I ruled out the possibility of it's influence here. Anyway, something's definitely fishy even with the light fixture totally disconnected.Consensus is: open ground?

          1. User avater
            BillHartmann | Jul 31, 2008 05:43am | #8

            I have light socket with leads and a aligator clips. Got it at Lowes. Not sure what it was sold for. But I have that an a small bulb. Connect something like that and make your measurements..
            .
            A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.

          2. DanH | Jul 31, 2008 05:43am | #9

            Open neutral.
            It is an ironic habit of human beings to run faster when we have lost our way. --Rollo May

          3. User avater
            maddog3 | Jul 31, 2008 03:04pm | #10

            Yes.

            .

            .. . . . . . . .

          4. pinko | Jul 31, 2008 04:00pm | #11

            Yep..I meant to say open neutral. I'll be investigating more this weekend. Let you know if/where I find the problem.Bill, the little light hook-up sounds like a plan. Thanks all.

  2. User avater
    maddog3 | Jul 31, 2008 02:09am | #6

    try taking the photocell out of the circuit

    .

    .

    .

    . . . . . . . .

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