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A project just appeared in my backyard, our old rotted fence was put out of its misery over the past week or so, thanks to some large wind gusts. I want to replace the 20-23 sections with something decent, I’m leaning towards 6’x8′ cedar.
I would love to spend the time to build the fence sections myself, but I have to finish off my porch and reside the entire house as well during the summer so premade seems to be my option.
I think I can reuse the exiting holes because it appears that they never cemented the posts in, I could be wrong I can’t verify yet.
I saw a 4’x 8′ “Spruce” for $20/section, a 4’x8′ Cedar for $27/section and a 6′ x 8′ Cedar for $42/section. The posts for 8′ PT were about $6 each. I am leaning towards the nicer of the three fences but does anyone have any thoughts on these options or other options? Do these prices sound correct?
Thanks in advance as usual.
SJ
Replies
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Are you planning to use 8 foot posts to handle 6 foot fence sections?
I see a blowdown in your future, and frost heaving, depending on latitude...also a lot will depend on how much airflow the fence sections allow. At most, you'd have maybe 18" in the ground, to allow almost nothing for land contour, post caps and ground clearance for the panels. Your soil will be important too.
We use ten footers here to handle 42-48" frost depths, and plenty in the ground to withstand nasty winds.
I can't see spruce being of any practical use, unless you like to paint fences every year or two. Tom, Huck, get on over here!
MD
*Thanks Mad Dog.Since it really is early here in MA for fencing they weer out of most of their supplies. I will see if they have 10' posts, I'm guessing they would be about $8-9 each. Does the price for the 6'x8' cedar sound decent, $42 each?ThanksSJ
*Steve,What kind of style is it? If it is a lattice/diagonal thing, I would think that's kind of high, but maybe everything there is more than here in the midwest. Except "fresh" seafood...but if it's a picket style, with decorative tops, and quality construction, it might be a pretty good buy. I've always made my own, not an expert on this but understand your situation. What's your frost depth there?A couple of times I've run out of longer posts and substituted shorter (8 footers) in between the long ones. Guess where the only bows in the fences have been?Good luck,MD
*MD, The frost depth is 48" for footings by code. I think that is a little over kill, that would be a 10' post for a 6' fence. Then again I wouldn't want to deal with a blow down of a new fence. The $42/section was a picket style with 1x6" cedar pickets butted against each other (no spaces) with a darker stain on them. It was a nice looking fence. I realize with the stain I will probably have to stain every 3-5 years though.SJ
*Steve,With the pickets tight, the fence will allow very little air to pass through, and in effect will take a hard wind like a sail, putting a fair stress on those posts.It is a pain to drill 48" posts, or dig them by hand, but that's better than some areas of the country...like northern Minnesota, I think their frost depth gets to something like 72" or maybe worse.Someone else may suggest a good system for the stain to last longer, maybe something like a deck stain would be good. I sprayed deck stain on PT fencing about 5 years ago and it looks almost as good as it did the day after it was done.
*72" !!! That makes my 48" seem reasonable. I will add this to the little projects that aren't too little. I guess worse case scenario I rent a post hole digger and drill new holes, which is just asking for problems in MA (rocks and roots). I am hoping they didn't use cement on the originals so I can reuse the holes.Looks like the ssumptions I'll start with are 10' posts, 6x8' cedar, post hole digger and lots of cement. SJ
*Yeah, I know about the rocks out east...no fun. You shouldn't need to cement the posts all the way to the top as long as the PT posts are rated for ground contact. Also, depending on how many posts you'll need, you could hire either a cement contractor or someone else who has an auger mounted on a tractor to drill your holes. That is a luxury item I would spend money for, and drink a beer in an easy chair watching them work.if you do rent a post hole digger, don't get the kind with the crossbar handles. That kind can be dangerous, and it makes the job a lot harder. Get the newer kind with wheels, and the auger mounted on a pivot. Make sure they give you a couple different sized extensions, you'll figure out what combination works best.Pulling those old poles may be more work than it's worth. I'd be tempted to leave them in the ground, and put the new posts in a different sequence so they don't land on the old ones. Just saw them off.MD
*Plant a hedge.
*get a price from a fence company. 24 holes im Ma? you ain't goin get nothin else done this summer.power auger? good til you hit that 1'x2'x1' rock ever other hole down 2 ft, I'm not even considering the 6"x12"x6" rocks. for one fence I had put in the fence co didn't use power augers, help broke them too often.I average two sections a day at home when the diggin's "easy", easy by NE standards. Relatively speaking I haven't had too much trouble pulling old posts out, but there was no cement. used the post hole digger (clam shell) to get the pieces of post that broke off. getting the old posts out was the easy part for me.Jaded? not me. Hate puttin fences, you bet.good luck
*I think every one puts in a fence once......once. Then realizes it ain't worth the trouble. The cost from a fence company would be just north of $5000 if I were lucky. Frankly I need to get the house sided and the porch completed more than this damn fence.Therefore, I think I'm stuck doing this myself.My neighbor (on the other side) has a nice fence that he dug a trench and poured cement in and used steel posts and attached the wooden fence to the posts. Been there for about 5 years with no problems.I'm not to hot on staring at a cement foundation around my yard.SJ
*My only thought would be to keep the bottom of the fence about 6" off the ground. That way leaves would blow under it instead of piling up against it.
*"...and lots of cement".Only if you are using steel posts. Cement isn't too healthy for wood posts. My grandfather retired as a fence builder in Detroit. The holes are 42". The posts are set in the holes, and typically gravel is tamped around the post. Only the last 6" or so are "capped" with cement, to allow water runoff mainly. My father and 2 uncles were trained the same way. They don't cement in wood posts. Their fences don't fall over, either. Buy your materials from a fence yard, if possible. The panels in my yard are considerably heavier duty than anything I've seen at HD "box" stores. This fence will probably outlast me, and as I'm 35, I hope that means something! Good luck. If you need more detailed info., I will ask my Dad and/or uncles. P.S.....My grandfather spoke of areas around here in terms of "sand digging" and "hard digging" (Detroit). I helped a neighbor set posts in Tulsa, OK, for a major stretch of stockade. He rented the auger on wheels. We only had to go about 2' for frost, but it took about a week to drill all holes. The clay "polishes" really nice under the auger. No digging was happening! We would get about 4" deep, then have to add water and let it sit overnight. Might as well have been drilling cement. Finally finished, though. Only mishap was drilling through the underground "main" cable TV line for the neighborhood. He even had it flagged by the cable company. Their flags were only offline by 3 feet! Good luck! --TJM
*Steve,A few things to consider:1. Those pre-fabbed sections at Home Depot are not worth it. They use 2x3 rails at best and untreated. Those sections are also nailed off, so you can't rack them to match the grade. You must step the top of the fence if your grade changes, and a stepped dogear stockade fence looks pretty bad. Your best bet is to build it in place. 2. On the subject of treated lumber, I don't know what condition your treated lumber is out there, but here in Colorado it is soaking wet right off of the shelf. By the time it dries out, the post tops are headed a different direction from the rest of the post. I use all cedar materials and average life is 15 years. Set posts in concrete.3. As far as digging, Colorado has its share of nasty areas, and I use a Bobcat with a hydraulic auger on it. Look in the phone book and see if anyone will just dig the post holes.4. Frost line out here is 36". In 15 years of building fence for a fence company, we set 8' cedar posts 2-3 feet deep in concrete, and never had any frost heave problems. Nor any blow downs. Just some thoughts, building fence is not the most glamorous job, but if you do it right it pays pretty well. I know that that doesn't apply to you, but if you need any advice you can e-mail me and I will be happy to help. God knows I've probably installed well over 500,000' of every kind of fence known to man. Mostly commercial chain link lately, but a hell of a lot of 6' privacy fence before that.Hope that helpsCole
*On post burial depth, I followed the general rule for our area in southwest Virginia, which is 1/2 the length of the exposed post.We have an 8' height limit, so I bought 12' posts, 6x6 in my case, and buried them 4'. For the fencing, bamboo poles harvested locally were used oriented vertically and freestanding in slots for easy inseration and removal. (Type L 3/4" copper tubing was used as a bottom stop for drainage.)They allow plenty of airflow but are packed tight enough to provide privacy.If you know of a bamboo grove that has grown out of control, property owners will be more then happy for you to harvest and haul them away.They make excellent fencing material that can be replaced very easily and will last a good number of years.But you may be in a historical neighborhood with strict rules against this sort of thing.
*Cole -I think this was covered in a couple of threads several years ago, but I did several searches and couldn't find them. What can one do to enhance the life of cedar posts. I have a pallet of rough 4x4 cedar posts and I would like them to last more than 15 years. I was thinking about coating the base up to just above ground level, where most posts seem to rot off, with pentrating epoxy and then coating the top portion with some type of clear sealer that wouldn't give me the glossy look of the penetrating epoxy. I realize that if the entire post is sealed except for some crack that water can wick into, the inside of the post can get wet and the sealant can prevent the water from escaping. I was wondering if perhaps I should leave the very bottom of the post uncovered with the epoxy so that any water could have a way out. Here in North Central Oregon, we usually get less than 15" a year of rain and my soil drains fairly well, so I hope that having gravel under the post and the uncovered bottom would allow for drainage without inviting a handy place for rot to work up the inside of the post. Any thoughts or advice?
*Wasn't it Steve Merrette that got introduced to these boards digging post holes? Maybe he is free to come bid your holes. Not doing the fence just the holes. LOL jk Steve.
*Steve just posted in the Business thread that he's a bit slow right now. He's got the time!Rich Beckman
*Gee I can get Merrette to dig the holes and it will only take me footing the airfare for himself and his tools, sounds like a great idea. Might as well bring the family too!!!I was hoping to maybe just band aid the thing until next year but then the 1" of snow we just had weighed enough to knock down another section that was blown half way over. I think that is a sign that the fence is just giving up. I want a fence with some heart, this one gave up too easy, sissy fence, LOL.Now to find time to finish my bathroom remodel, complete the interior of the porch, strip all the old Masonite (ie. compressed dust) siding and install cedar claps AND install 20+ sections of fence dug into New England soil. Now about my full time 50 hr/week job.....Thank God for the 3 weeks of vacation I get.
*No sympathy from me.I'm remodelling a rental property.Remodeling my house, top to bottomRenovating my barn/shopAdding a studio/office buildingRunning two businesses, one going full throttle in fifteen different directions.Have never had a paid vacation...MD
*I'm looking forward to being busy, only problem is finding time for the "other" things in my life like planning a damn wedding. Hmmmmm...fence or wedding, I don't think I'll win that comparison LOL.I think I'll have the bathroom done end of March. Figure one month to finish the porch. May for the fence, heck, plenty of time for siding from June-October.SJ
*re - Running two businesses, one going full throttle in fifteen different directions. Have never had a paid vacation... ------Mad Dog -You sound like one of those folks who will never retire and stay busy until the last day.And get bored stiff on the second day of vacation.I have a couple friends who thrive on juggling multiple projects and jobs that seems impossible to me.I have no excuse for not getting anything done in the house we bought next door....Alan
*i planning a damn wedding. Stay flexible and things do come together.Daughter decided in March to get married in Aug. Wanted to get married by the water. Location was a 2 hr drive from where we live.It happened and was great.
*Steve,MEN DON'T PLAN THE WEDDING!Even if you "help" you won't get credit for it. You just need to say, "Yes honey, I like your idea" and come up with some great, cheezy vows, which you will pronounce as if you'd thought of them your entire life... and thank everyone at the dinner as if you'd actually invited them, make a big deal about the little things. And dance with your bride and her mom. See-it's easy, just wing it.
*No Alan,I'm not married to my work. I'm mired in it. But I can totally let go at any time, if there's a vacation or a weekend of fishing...Only problem is the work doesn't go away while I'm gone.I chip away at all of this on a daily basis with goals and fairly low expectations. Some days I'm truly impressed with the progress!Keepin' it fun,MD
*Steve's the one getting married?MD is correct.be interested, and stay out of the line of fire
*MD - You're killin' me!! If I don't get my hands in teh wedding on at least a 20% level who knows what we will end up with. All I really care about is great food and an open bar. Bu that isn't here nor there.I'm trying to put a better estimate on the siding cost to see if the fence can be done this year as well. I think it should be alright. The siding is tough because of the disposal fees around here. No dump so I am stuck with a couple dumpster runs.SJ
*Steve, save the bartender fee to buy fence posts. Then, wedding night, serve drinks to everyone till they're blue in the face, make sure your bride gets plenty, you'll still end up fine, and everyone will think you're just a hell of a great guy--they'll always show up at your parties.Wouldn't hurt if you could serve 'em up like Tom Cruise in "Cocktail" too...
*Steve;We're almost done with our fence project that we started a couple of years ago. All I have left to do is go find a latch mechanism for the double gate.I wanted to pay a fence company to build it, but the first company (who made all the right noises) kept putting us off, then didn't return phone calls. So I went to my back-up bidder. The installer finally showed up, but then he looked at the drawing and compared it to the price his salesman gave me (based on that same drawing) and said it would cost a lot more (like maybe that 5000 you suggested). So we decided to build it ourselves, all 70' of it.We used 4x4x10' pressure treated southern pine posts, and set them approximately 3' into the ground. I went round and round about how deep to dig the holes, and what mixture to tamp in around them - crushed limestone, pea gravel, concrete, lean concrete, or just the dirt excavated from the hole. I quickly ruled out concrete, because the post and the concrete will separate and allow water to get down in the crack. Then pressure treated or not, the wood will rot. I thought of using the free draining pea gravel, but our soil is clay (you know, that stuff they use to make pots to hold water), and that would just be a larger puddle of water that the post would be sitting in. So, I ended up deciding to use crushed limestone with 1/3 bag of quikcrete to the top foot or so.We used a two-man auger to drill the holes. I guess it was a good thing that it took a while to get this started because my 15 year old son was finally big enough to help my husband drill the ten holes (it took almost all of Thanksgiving weekend). We set the posts as the holes were dug to get the right spacing. Some of the posts were 8' apart, some were 6' apart, then there were the odd sizes around the gate. I wanted the fence panels to fit between the posts, allowing the posts to be visible on both sides of the fence, so that made for complicated measuring. I also let the posts stick up a bit from the top rail, and we now have post caps on them (all the more reason for the 10' lengths).The only thing I would change about our project is the pressure treated 4x4's. Cole mentioned earlier that in Colorado the posts are sopping wet. I think that's what I bought. I hand picked all my p.t. lumber for this project at the beginning of November. Needless to say, by Thanksgiving they hadn't dried out a bit. Now we have a couple of bowed posts, and a few seriously twisted ones. My neighbor wanted to continue our fence design, so I cautioned him to buy the posts as soon as possible and let them dry as much as they can before installation. Maybe cedar posts would not have such a problem, but I enjoy the different colors I see as I look at the green tinted p.t. posts and rails, contrasting with the more orange hued cedar boards and cap rail.This is an important area at our little house, so the design and details really mattered. It was also necessary to have the 6' high privacy fence, but I would just raise the question - is a 6' high fence right for your project? Are you trying to screen a view or protect your privacy, or just keep dogs or kids from passing in or out of your yard? Does your yard slope enough that a 6' high fence doesn't block anything anyway?And lastly, ask your fiance to help you build the fence. I hope that exercise will tell you what you want to know. Then, by all means, help her with the wedding plans. It's nobody else's party but yours.
*Casey--a very low-tech, low-cost, low-hassle way of waterproofing that I have used with fair success is to use either melted paraffin or automotive undercoating. The paraffin works very nicely on porous materials like wood or fired clay, but to get it to penetrate rather than merely coat you need to heat the base material to hotter than the melting point of the paraffin. The paraffin is easily applied from an old can with a chip brush, or you can dip in it.Small objects I just put in the oven at minimum temp, then brush it on a few times. Or, they can be submerged in a number 10 can of melted paraffin. For the posts, you might want to use a tall metal container that is heated externally and let the posts both heat- and paraffin soak for, say, an hour. Candle makers buy paraffin in bulk. If you don't like wax on the surface, it can be scraped or melted off, and the stuff that penetrates will still protect the wood.Automotive undercoating comes in a spray can. It helps to warm it up a bit before spraying. It doesn't soak in, and I tend to use it on non-porous materials like metal.The disadvantages of both are: they are very soft; both are soluble in most solvents other than water; the undercoating is black. Undercoating can be painted over with non-latex paints. Paraffin cannot be painted or stained over. Neither will work if there is any abrasion or pressure, but fence posts, both metallic and wooden, are what I've used both treatments for in the past.
*Thanks for the additional information. I have about 20-25 total sections that need to be installed. It should be a blast.I was thinking 6' but I feel I will probably wind up with a 4' cedar picket of some sort. We actually have a 2' mound (that slopes up to the neighbors yard) that the fence is set on top of currently so a 4' really gives us a 6' barrier. However, when we sit in our new porch we are about 25-30" off the ground so we are back to having about 4' of privacy along the porch. Maybe I will install a few 6' sections then 4' who knows. I have to wait until closer to spring to see what people have available and check the prices.I whink 3' holes will be enough.SJ
*should be, what with global warming. Our ground hardly froze here at all this winter, doubt the frost depth ever got below a foot.Happy digging and good luck,MD