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I have installed the cement siding only a couple of times.The first time I was about 3/4 of the way through the job when I found applied to the back of one(and only one)piece of siding the warning ” contains silca dust,a known carcinagin”.What a delightful surprise!
I don’t know if there are different types of this material,but wear masks.Luckily we were.
I always use the snips now.
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Replies
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well Tom,
I've worked with the stuff on a few jobs. If you use a carbide blade don't cut anything else with,because it won't cut anything else. About nailing I always use galv. siding nails and hand drive them. Like all siding i never drive the nails home. driving them home breaks the paper like surface and can cause the siding to pop, bowing out over time. I have to say the painters like it thought it does sook up paint. in some cases our painters had to give it four coats.
Here's a trick I learned to setting a reveil quickly. Take two 1x blocks and make a "T". Then take one of those siding nails and drive it just thought the "T" at the reveil you want. instant scribe, now run it down the siding. no need to snap lines.
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For those of you looking for thicker trim stock, FCP (http://www.cemplank.com) makes fiber cement products also, and offers trim (cemtrim) in both 7/16 and 7/8 thicknesses. They are out of PA. They distribute about here (OH) as does Hardiplank. Products seem to be on par with Hardi.
Matt
*Just out of curiosity, what price range are we talking about for buying and/or renting these fabled fiber cement shears? And, how big a bite do they take on each "crunch"?
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I am getting ready to install hardi-plank on my house and have been following this topic for some time, but today somebody told me they had a bad experence with it. They installed the planks chaulked the butt joints and had a problem with the planks shrinking 1/2" at all the joints. They claim material was dry when installed, but house was in full sun. Has anybody had this problem????
Thanks, Mr Bill
*we are using a lot of 7.5 inch hardiplank in the central florida. use diamond blade for cutting. we allow only 5 1/2" exposure and blind fasten 1 1/4" down from top with galv drywall screws. we use galv metal flashing behind butt joints along long spans and caulk all ends butts and laps. this shorter exposure uses a little more material but looks a lot better especially blind fastened and caulked.
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Mr Bill,
This is the first I've heard of expansion-contraction problems with Hardi-plank. Around here most folks are saying to lay it tight and ignore the factory 1/8" spacing. Where are you? I'm kind of in love with this stuff.
JonC
*In the past two weeks we have used the Ivy Clasic diamond blade to cut Hardie Board, Hardie Trim, and Hardi Plank in 1/4", 5/16" and 7/16" thicknesses. About 15 squares with a lot of rips for soffits and 7/12 tapers for gable siding. The saw cuts as good today as when we started. My cost was about $85. The way we were eating up trow away grade carbides it will more than pay for it self by the end of the job.
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I put Hardieplank on my house last year and used a story pole to align courses with wall openings. This worked well.
I cut the stuff with a blade by Dewalt made for cutting Hardieplank (20 bucks). I bought two blades but I believe one will do several houses.
I nailed it per manufacturers recommendations to not void great warranty.
I used ironwood for the corners and trim (expensive) because tamlyn products are not available in my area (upstate NY).
Cutting hardieplank makes dust. Cutting wood make sawdust. Big deal!
Very little waste (less than 2%).
*I used to be a manuf. rep for one of the fiber cement siding companies. The guys telling you to use a diamond blade are on the right track. I have seen guys use a carbide for several houses but the cuts looked like hell. Make sure to use hot dipped galv. nails. Not electro-galv. or any other type other than poss. stainless. That should be the case with any siding application due to the way galvanization adheres to the nail. The dust is a serious issue! Make sure to use a mask. A fan also helps. Full round heads with a min. 1/4" diam. for nail guns. NO clip heads. They don't have the holding power. F/C is a good product. Most installers hate it. Something different and you have to use special tools to cut it.If you want all of the benfits of fiber cement without any of the hassle, (except for the class A fire rating, and lets face it, unless you are in CA. most homes burn from the inside out not the outside in) then try L-P SmartSystem Siding. It is treated(from surface to surface all the way through) against rot and insects. (using an environmentally friendly non-toxic treatment) and it is an engineered wood product (not hardboard or OSB). It applies easier, no special tools and lays flatter on the wall. It also is more rigid and won't break like the f/c boards will. They also have a warranty that is unparalleled. Even fiber-cement doesn't have as good of a warranty. Give it a look and you'll be impressed and have a better looking house with a lot less hassle and all of the same benefits minus the fire rating which is not a big feature anyway.Good Luck
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Fiber cement siding has been of interest to me for several years and is finally becoming available in my area. From my research it seems to fill a gap between vinyl and real wood in terms of cost, appearance and maintenance. Assuming it doesn't turn to mush in three years like some of the other "hot new siding materials" that didn't make the cut (like masonite etc). This stuff would appear to be different in that the technology and similar materials have been around and performed well for longer than I have been around.
Anyhow, It seems that most guys I know do one job and have such a bad experience with it that they refuse to install it again. There must be some pitfalls that I don't know about. Other than the obvious such as cutting, nailing and weight.
For those of you that have installed it, how about clueing me in on some installation tips as follows...
Layout- I'm thinking making a story pole and varying exposure to allow for full pieces above and below windows, etc. to the extent possible. Is it better to snap lines for every course of is there another way.
Nailing- Most guys are using guns, but I thought I could go just as fast and hoseless by hand nailing. Now I'm told that hand nails don't drive well so I'm thinking Hitachi coil sider with e.m.g. or s.s. nails.
Cutting- I figure diamond dry cut, or carbide. I used the shears on a job, they cut fast but I don't think I'll buy them for this job. Can you gang cut the stuff?
What using the 4x8 sheets for soffits? Any tips.
Thanks for any advice.
Tom
*Tommy B. -I may have as much experience as anyone working with the stuff. Carpenters generally hate it. It is more work than wood, it is hard on the tools, the dust gets in everything. I charge .25 to .50 cents more per square foot over wood to install it. Builders and homeowners love it. The warranty is awesome, it holds paint well, termites and mildew don't care for it. Personally, I think it will outlive most structures. Diamond blades stack cut well. Shears are dust free and near as fast. Coil nailers are the best bet for fastening, however, 1/4" crown inch and a half long staples do a beautiful job on thin soffit board. I pop lines to keep the courses uniform. We have other tricks I've never seen mentioned, tools and jigs and techniques specific to the stuff. It could be a whole other trade, if someone would only step up to the plate.
*Enlighten me master. I already have some jigs and Ideas in mind, but it sure would be nice to get some input with someone with experience. I'm pretty sure I won't be competing with you.Do you use the tamlyn products for inside corners and soffit vents? Do you see any problem with using the 3/4" fiber cement for the outside corners? I plan on putting them over top of the siding. What about using aluminum or vinyl J on the gables and on sloped ground for the pieces to fit into?How about some specifics old buddy, old pal?Tom
*We are doing our first Hardi-Board job now. Used 7/16 Hardi-Trim for the facia and it came out very nice indeed. Cut the facia with throw away grade carbide blades. Very hard on blades. Put up a post on this forum and Jim Blodgett turned me on to the "MK Plank Kutter". I found a source - J.B. Esberner & Associates, Inc., 1-800-593-6095, [[email protected]]. No prices. Got the impression the more you buy, the cheaper they get. Hector Garcia at James Hardie, Inc., 1-800-348-1811x4493 advised Hitachi was comming out with a blade. Local dealer made some calls and confirmed that the blade should be available by November. No much help when you have 12 squares of 5/16 siding and 10 sheets of 1/4" soffit on the job site ready to go up. Hector also advised the tungsten knife in their literature is "the hard way to do it." Local dealer also confirmed another diamond blade manufacturer, Ivy, was working on a cement fiber board blade. Wm Robertson, another Breaktime poster advised he was getting good results with a "wavy" diamond blade. I have access to a 7" Ivy Classic Swift Cut that I am going to try tommorrow. Makita makes a special saw and blade for cutting cement board, #5044KB Circular Saw w/Dust Collector & Speciallyy Designed Carbide Blade. $284.00 at Louis Williams & Son, 1-800-232-8216 [http://www.makita-direct.com]. Considering the cost of diamond blades or throw away carbides, this could be a cost effective alternative for someone who does a lot of this. I contacted James Hardie, Inc. because I was looking for a 3/4" or 1' thick fiber cement board product for triming out corners and around windows. Hector advised that the thickest product they made was 7/16". They are working on thicker products but are having problems comming up with something that can be nailed. Tommy, what is the source of your 3/4" material? If it does not rain tomorrow I will post the results of our experiment with the Ivy Classic blade.
*I can't vouch for that "Plank Kutter" 'cause I've never used it, but it is a diamond blade and says on the package it's made for Hardi type products. Costs about 30.00 if I remember right. I'd be glad to send you (or anyone else) one. E mail me if you want one (or more) - jb
*JB, you're starting up a mail-order business!Someone here raved about a DeWalt carbide blade intended for cutting fiber-cement, about $25 and longer-lived than most. I've read that a diamond blade can be cost-effective over multiple jobs....The stuff can be cut easily with score-and-snap, but you get a fuzzy edge. I've been wondering about J-channels as mentioned by Tommy, perhaps around windows too? On power nailing, mfgr cautions strongly against overdriving because panel loses its water-resistance. In practice I shot the nails proud and gave the final whack by hand. I'm very interested to hear people's experiences.
*I have installed the cement siding only a couple of times.The first time I was about 3/4 of the way through the job when I found applied to the back of one(and only one)piece of siding the warning " contains silca dust,a known carcinagin".What a delightful surprise! I don't know if there are different types of this material,but wear masks.Luckily we were. I always use the snips now.
*The Fibercement post is kind of everywhere now at breaktime..My thoughts so far again are; Tools...totally forget about carbide blades or those diamond blades with four teeth..Use a diamond blade with the continuous rim wiggle edge...Mine are lasting well so far. The dust is no big deal if you set your mind to deal with it and learn how to breathe when the "breathin's good." Use a fan on the windless days. The pro's use shears because they last even longer than diamond blades and there is no dust to contend with. My shears are on order!...I put a small diameter blade on a circular saw for all my rips and am now as fast with cement board rips as I would be with cedar. Don't use a table saw as it just can't handle the dust at all...I would definitly bid 25 to 50 percent over cedar if possible...As for trim, we are using 5/4 cedar for most of the trim and vinyl for soffets. And you definitly need a coil siding nailer with stainless steal nails often finish set with your trusty hammer...We blind nail the planks so there is no need to fill misfires which happen often, but since the planks are very hefty we always add extra nails whenever we blow through the board. On to installation...Snap lines on walls that are longer than the 12' that the plank comes in. Always make story poles to work your siding up the wall and around the house...If you cheat up to an eigth per row you can eliminate 1" rip pieces quite often but then sometimes you may not want to depending on other factors involved...Here's one great timesaver technique...If you are using cornerboards and have made a story board that works all for the whole house, make up all your corner boards ahead of time, stack them together on edge all lined up to a predetermined levelline and then just transfer the storyboard onto their outside nonabutting edges...Wala!! When you nail up all this trim you will then need to add your story pole layout near window edges and on any walls longer than 12'. Now with your trim hung and all stroyboard layed out, you should be half way to the bank!...Oh and also start your first course on track (to your level line)...and as you near window bottoms/tops and soffets, start to measure and check ahead for any visual alignment adjustments you may need to deal with just as you would when finishing shingling a roof or decking a deck.Lastly step back often and eyeball your work!!!..down the lines, around corners, window top to window top, (what about lining up the door trim with a slightly wider rip of trim, etc)...Human eyes are amazingly good at seeing what's out of whack, so try not to get way out ahead of your best QC eyeballs.Near the stream, (far from where-ist the dust does settle yet again tonight,)adirondackjack
*Do I detect a certain reluctance to spring for $16 for a reasonably good HEPA half face mask, or even a buck or two for one of the little paper ones (just like those rich doctors use). A respirator is definitely cheaper than a new set of lungs, although I assume you might have to cut a lot of cement board before you end up spitting blood from a fatal case of silicosis - but why chance it. Besides, one nice thing about respirator is how nice the air smells when you take the thing off...(And another is that if you shop carefully, you can get one that makes you look almost like Darth Vadar...)
*Tommy B.- You are kind, but I am no master. I'm an avid enthusiast. When you stop learning, you die. The posts that follow are quite informative. I like AdJack's idea of laying out the corner boards. Wood cutting blades waste my time and tools, pushing a dull blade aggravates. The cut man needs two saws, one for cement and one for wood. I use a worm drive for cement because it can take the abuse. Using a sidewinder for wood lessens the chance of cutting concrete with a good blade. One scratch and the blade is shot. Ripping the soffit, I stack cut with my worm drive. I clamp a 2x4 onto the stack as a fence. The dust is incredible, use a fan, mask, whatever. An idea I have yet to see is my corner and window detail. Run housewrap, set windows, then rip 1x4s to 3" wide. Frame the windows and corners with them, and run the siding up to them. After the siding is up, cover with 1x4 harditrim (3/4"x3 1/2", yes, Home Depot even stocks it). Of course the corners need a 2 1/4" rip to get a 3" exposure. Everything should be caulked behind before nailing. This way you don't have to be so accurate cutting the planks. Score and snap, use shears, or a saw. You have 1/2" on each side to work with.
*He may be a master, but is he Sith or Jedi? (Anyone else pay to see that silly movie?) Gotta go...
*About the vinyl; Tamlyn has some good stuff, but it fits kinda tight. The "H-mold" and "Snap-vent" are a challenge to work with only two hands. On soffits we leave 1/8" caulk gap to eliminate the hassle. For venting, we use the 3-leg "EZ-vent". The two leg side sits flush with the subfascia, leaving plenty of room to ventilate. When the fascia goes on you can barely see the vent behind it. Soffits now have two easily handled parts to deal with. If you use the 12' soffit boards you may find that cutting them to 6' reduces expansion problems and makes it manageable for solo application. I have a lot of men, but I can't afford one to stand and hold the end of a board. The vinyl inside corner is a nice touch, but I haven't tried the outside corner yet. It just looks like a big ol' chunk of plastic to me.
*Yeah, Day one is over and we managed about 8 sg. of wall surface in about seven hours with a three man crew. Diamond blades are the ticket, I wouldn't spend the money on the shears myself. We're using a standard siding cut table and sidewinders. I'm not using any wood and in case you never tried it, the diamond blade will cut your vinyl soffit also so no need to switch saws. Its definately a three man job, whereas with lighter stock I like a two man crew. The gun works fine but I'm having no problem nailing hand nails (Maze ring shank double hd galv 8 penny) which can come in handy at times. My approach is keep the saw humming 'cause the cutting is the weak link. I'm taking a grinder with diamond blade for tomorrow to do window cutouts in place. Should speed things up a bit.I picked up on the corner board trick AJ you old dog. I'm hoping to find some other tricks. This stuff is hell on the tools and since it requires three guys, I'm starting out $130/ square. I'll post my thoughts again after I'm done.Thanks for all the input.Tom