I’m trying to find a good school for framing. It can be located anywhere in the U.S.. I met a guy in Alaska this summer that had gone to school in North Carolina. He said it was the best in the country. It was a two year program that focused on stick framing. It’s exactly the type of thing I’m looking for. I never got the name of the school in North Carolina so if someone could tell me the name of it, or a similar program I would appreciate it a great deal.
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it doesn't take two years to learn to stick frame
Mark, don't take it personal, but "it doesn't take two years to learn to stick frame" is probably one of the most ignorant, off hand remarks I have heard in a long time. I've been framing for ten years, running a crew for 3 years. I spend my nights buried in FHB, JLC, websites, tradeshows, my shop, and reading books on framing. Yet somehow I still continue to learn everyday. Maybe it's just me.
Mate,
If that's an offhand ignorant remark, then you haven't been around here very long.
Yes, I would be the first to agree with you that we can all learn something new, ( I don't know about every day though ), but the fact of the matter is carpentry is about common sense, thinking ahead, problem solving and experience.
You will not get the same level of experience in two years of school as you would on the the job.
I've been framing a lot longer than ten years. I can't say that methods have changed much in that time. Certainly we have had code changes, but the fundamentals are still the same.
In case you haven't guessed, I have no time for "Schools" that " teach " trades. ( and I'm the product of a formal 4 year apprenticeship system, something that if you are in the States? do not have? )
regards
markhttp://www.quittintime.com
Well said. Whether we use a Senco or a Dell, ultimately we're all making money because of what we know or know how to do. Any day I can't learn something new about this business is a day I didn't look hard enough during. After nearly 27 years in this industry, one thing I'm positive of is there's plenty I don't know diddly about. Sure, maybe after a while, the rate of finding a "nugget" slows down. But that doesn't mean I'm going to stop digging!
Al
Dieselpig,
I have to agree with you on learning everyday. I've been framing for 19 years and I'm still learning.
I've been posting on JLC for the past couple of months going back and forth with a guy who most people no as Joe Fusco. Smartest guy in this buisness I ever met.
Learned alot from him asking a million questions and keeping copies of all my threads. That is why today him and I got together and where going to work together on different projects.
I to have a alot of framing books and also some videos.
If I learned one thing from a book or a video, It's mioney worth spent.
This is what I do for a living so I have to be the best, fastest but with quality and integrity.
You can't feel stupid to ask a question, how can it hurt you? By learning something new ;-)
I spent all night sometimes going back and forth at JLC figuring different formulas for roof framing, but it was all worth it.
Nothing wrong with trying to find a school for framing, at least he's showing an intersest to better himself.
I still get teased today because I use to follow my boss around with a notebook and write down as much as I could.
Sometimes I even went over his house at night to ask him questions about rafters and we would draw pictures and discuss it.
I guess maybe that's why he started subcontracting jobs to me when I was 22 years old.
Joe Carola
Damn Joe , that was an impressive post . I applaud you! Now I wish I could find a hand that would just think about the job between 5 and 8!
Tim Mooney
I'm gonna disagree.....especially with Mark.
I remodeled alomg side my Dad from the time I was a little kid.....learned tons about interior...mainly K and B. When I decided to get back into carpentry and make it my life's work....I invested the best money I'd ever spent and went to a good trade school.
I went to school mainly to learn framing....the school touched on all facets of building. I even learned a bit more about K and B.
Here's where I'll disagree with Mark......we were taught way more than what you seem to expect from a 4 yrs guy ...and covered it in 15 months. Now, the kids that had no background couldn't walk out the day after graduation and lead a framing crew......but the guys that already had a background in the trades.....that knew what questions to ask...and knew what they wanted and needed to learn.....could walk walk outta school and be a strong second carp on most sites.......
The framing clases were broken in to wall framing...basic roof framing..and advanced roof framing......bastard roof's all cut up...just about everything was covered. Cover fast....so ya had to keep up......but the framing was taught by using the math method.......which once learned......explained all them funny numbers on the framing square. Not just how to use those scales.....but the logic and math behind the scales.
The math method also explains the hows and why's of a construction master....again....the theory behind the numbers...not just which buttons to push.
So.....once ya leaned the basics....then built on that.....really any roof could be broken down and figured out.
No amount of tract home framing is gonna teach you that. Mostly, from what I've seen of the tract framers that decided the real money is in remodeling...is that time and money are all about speed.
And...a school that covers all the basics might show you that there's more to carpentry than just framing.
In case you are wondering, the school I went to is in western Pa, called Triangle Tech. I'd recommend them if there are no other alternatives........as I had issues with the management and wouldn't recommend them outright...but I'm sure there are schools like that across the country.
Jeff
.......Sometimes on the toll road of life.....a handful of change is good.......
Edited 10/3/2002 7:31:21 PM ET by Jeff J. Buck
"No amount of tract home framing is gonna teach you that. Mostly, from what I've seen of the tract framers that decided the real money is in remodeling...is that time and money are all about speed."
Jeff , I have questions about what is above . Are you talking about framers switching to remoldeling ? Some one said that just framers would get in the way on a remodel. I really tend to agree. The most mental of the trades is remodeling . I hear things said all the time about everyone doing remodeling , but not building . Like they dont attempt to go there . I guess it depends on what people call remodeling , and do they do it all? To me , building and remodeling is daylight and dark apart , but I treat the two differently. I use subs building and dont use them on remodels. Any thoughts ?
Tim Mooney
I think new const and remodeling are two different animals also.
I grew up remodeling. I have done a bit of new const.....very little......trim....and decided the atmosphere of remodeling was better suited to me.
And like you said.....even broken down into specialties.....framing in new const is different then remodeling framing.
By new const....I have in mind tract or development framing. Lotsa of mostly the same design. Condo's and townhouses.
I'm not even refering to one off or spec home framing from the ground up. The remodeling I'm refering to is additions of all sizes...and specs would fall somewhere else!
Maybe "production framing" would be a better term for my version of New Const.
But I do think there's a difference. Based entirely on what I've seen in person. I've been around remodeling sites where some supposedly hot shot framing guy comes in and is totally lost....maybe because production sites are way more organized...or because doing alot of the same...over and over....getting faster and more productive all the time.....doesn't teach you how to solve the everyday problems associated with remodeling and tying in the old to the new.
I've also been around the framing of big #### high end custom remodels.....each one with different details......that drive these same guys nuts. The one's I've been around seem to have trouble at first with shifting gears...sometimes to a grinding halt.....while some odd detail is worked out. Just slowing down sometimes throws them off their game....which is natural.....if up till now...everythings been go man, go!
I was never fast enough to production frame..and now I'm definitely too old to think about learning.
I guess it all depends where the posted would like his career to point......for production framing..he might just be able to combine his experience with a few Larry Haun videos.........but one off or remodeling, he might be better suited to finding that school....gotta be out there somewhere.
Jeff.......Sometimes on the toll road of life.....a handful of change is good.......
van... don't listen to mark... come on over to my school... tuition is relatively inexpensive, and the abuse level is low...
Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Mike, I gotta get up earlier to beat you to the punch. <BG>
After you get done at Mike's framing school you can come to mine. Same tuition and all.
That way first you can have great Italian food and seafood while you learn all about pump jacks, steep pitches, rake walls, tieing into colonial balloon framing, and terrible weather, then you can have tortillas and chile while you learn about flat roofs, parapets, tieing into mud walls, and terrible weather.
DRC
Van....Theres a fantastic school I went to years ago that teaches a whole lot of different things. Its in Vermont. Its called "Yestermorrow". Mostly its timber framing but they teach all kinds of things and theyre really inspirational people...Look into it brother...Good luck
Be well
Namaste'
Andy
It's not who's right, it's who's left ~ http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
Just curious as to the reason your looking to go to school? It has been my personal experience, so I dont mean to paint all with a broad brush, that when it comes to construction the only training of value is that which comes on the job. Again, this is just my experiences, but those Ive come across in our field who`ve learned the trade in a classroom are very rarely able to apply it to actual conditions with much success.
J. D. Reynolds
Home Improvements
"DO IT RIGHT, DO IT ONCE"
Suggest contacting the North Carolina Builders Assoc., http://www.nchba.com & see if they know of it.
Al
van.... remember what dillenger said about why he robbed banks ?.... because that's where the money is..
you wanna learn framing, production framing is only taught at production framing schools.. like any tract where they are putting up 500 house or so..
scratch- your- head framing is taught on every remodeling jobsite in the US...
framing design and engineering is taught in Code schools.. or enlightened bosses..or two year Construction Technology Associate Degree courses
once you learn framing.. then what ? are you going to be a framer ?.. then get out there and get on a framing crew.. are you going into business ? then get out there and get working for a framing company..
want to learn how to build your own house .. do it..
want to learn the remodeling busines.. come on down.. we're always looking for well motivated help...
it helps to locate in an area that is spending money on their housing.. IE: don't move to the boonies where all they do is patch and paint.. go where people have large disposable incomes so they can afford to pay for the kind of work you want to spend your life doing...
Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
If you want to learn how to frame get a job with a framing crew. With your first paycheck, buy some decent tools and a book on framing. Use the tools and spend some time every day reading the book. Go through every chapter until you understand it. Get a roof framing book (like the Roof Framers Bible). Read until you know how to use it. Pay attention while at work. Watch the guys with more experience. You will learn both what to do and what not to do. Ask a well placed question every now and then. You can learn much this way.
I spent 2-1/2 years in a carpentry program. Mostly, it was a waste of 2-1/2 years and alot of money. Granted I learned much, but most of what I learned was from the reading that I personally did, not the classroom activities. You can pay someone to teach you, or get paid to learn. The latter method is especially effective when paired with independent study.
Good luck.
I don't know how to reply to all so I guess just the last post......
I really appreciate all the input and realized I should have provided a little more information. I have been working on framing crews for four years. This summer I worked on a commercial fishing boat in Alaska and met a young man in the same situation I was in. We both love framing but get sick of - for lack of a better term - drag #### co-workers and not enough hours. Between us we have more than enough tools to have a framing company, but not enough knowledge. In my four years of framing if you're asking a question you're not working and any of the highly skilled tasks are left to the head carpenter. Another problem is that even though the only homes i've worked on are custom built we've always used factory trusses. So it is literaly impossible to learn roof framing. I've read multiple books but like many of you have said there is no substitute for experience. The school I heard about in north carolina doesn't include a classroom. It's all hands-on on the site experience. With no deadlines I would imagine I could learn enough about what I don't know to get by - and god knows things can be figured out on the spot. Thanks again to all who responded.
van, I'll ask a resident in the trades from NC and see if he's heard of it. Check your email in a cpl days.__________________________________________
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
http://www.quittintime.com/
Van
If you want to learn roof framing there is a lot you can teach yourself with the aid of a framers guide. get yourself a bunch of 2x4's and build yourself a mockup on the ground. At least it'll help you get started on cuts/angles problem solving. It doesn't have to be big ( at college we made ours out of 1x2 and the whole roof was no bigger than a dining table )
regards
markhttp://www.quittintime.com
Dang, that's exactly what I was going to say. I would build 'funky doghouses' to work out ideas and methods. Then sell the result as a 'custom "art" doghouse' or a "crawl in" doll house. (can you see some kid stuffed into the foryer of some little project playing dolls on the second floor landing? I chuckle and feel bad for the kid a the same time.) This is how I learned roof framing, well, that and some summers spent doing church construction as a crew member.
The union used to run a framing school in Chicago; don't know much mre than that about it....seemed to be successful.
Obviously, I'm going to dissent from the 'trade schools aren't worth going' line of thinking, cause I spend my days knocking myself out trying to produce the best tradesmen I can, and so do all my colleagues. Employers seem to appreciate it, because the students all seem to get jobs.I do agree apprenticeship is a really valuable way to learn....there's advantages to taking a core program and to the apprenticeship route. I am working as hard as I can to institute apprenticeship in my trade here....journeyman certification exams are available, but not the formal apprenticeship system.cabinetmaker/college instructor. Cape Breton, N.S
VAn: i think the program that adrian is talking about makes sense in Canada.... their licensing system encourages it..
That school in Utah sounded great too.. most people in the trades figure out the business end after about 10 years of OJT... when they could have learned the fundamentals in a one year school..
I don't think you can find a better school for prodution framing than a first class framing company.. it is really specialized.. but i'm not sure you really want to specialize that much...
Like anything else... complex roof framing is a skill... but in my business it is not a skill we really need .. we can frame a complex roof and acheive an excellent house.. we just can't do it as efficiently as someone who specializes in it.. but i'd guess that it might involve 2% to 5% of the man hours of building a residence .... from start to finish... so , unless the carp. had a lot of other skills and a desire to do other things.. a straight framer will often just get in the way on a remodeling job....
Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Van,
Our local school, Utah Valley State College, offers a program in the Building Construction and Construction Management department. You can get a one year certificate, 2 year associate degree or 4 year bachelors degree. The one year certificate requires the following courses First Semester: Principles of Residential Framing, Blueprint Reading, Concrete and Masonry, Building Construction Safety, Stair Design and Construction, Framing and Concrete Lab*, Building Codes;
Second Semester:Principles of Finish Carpentry, Finishing Lab*, Construction Estimating, Roof Framing, Construction Management Concepts, and Cabinetry Math. The labs are hands on - I think I heard that they just go out and build a building somewhere. Sure, you can learn all of this in the school of hard knocks, but how much better to be able to approach a difficult roof line and not have to figure the whole thing out on the third try. Not sure how this program is, but what they offer sounds good. Hope this helps.
Van,
Do you just strictly work on custom homes?
Do you ever do additions?
Have you ever tried asking your boss questions during break time? If so, does he tell you, not now kid I'm on break?
If that's his answer, then you better find some place else to work. You'll never learn from this company, trust me.
What you described was my first boss in 1983. One day his plumber showed up and I was talking to him and he told me that he liked framing that he used to work for a framer on the weekends. I asked him who the framer was, he gave me his number, I called him up. The next weekend I worked for him.
I asked that guy a million questions that saturday, he answered all of them ;-)
Maybe not all million ;-)
Seriously he answered every question I asked without hesitation. And he was well known as one of the best framers around. That's all I had to here.
I learned more in one day then I did in 8 months with my first boss.
That monday I gave my boss 2 weeks notice and started working for the framer.
Van it all depends on how hungry you are for knowledge and it sounds like you are. That's exactly how I was and still am at 37.
There was one guy on the framing crew that was fast, but I never seen him layout a wall or a rafter. I asked him why, he said because I don't want to know. He was the type of guy that you give him the mark and he'll nail right on it. He didn't care how, why or what the mark meant.
He was content with that, That's great for him. But is wasn't for me.
I wanted to learn how to cut any roof and the most difficult roof. And my boss told me he would show me that.
Van hopefully if that's what your looking for you will find the right boss.
Good Luck.
Joe carola
Van,
A lot of the guys' responses here are correct. I looked into going to a CC to study carpentry, but I guarantee you no school will teach you as much as OJT will. I've been framing for 5 1/2 months now with a total of 26 houses completed in that time. Everything from 1200 sq ft 2/2's to 3200 sq ft 4/3's. I knew a little from tinkering with hobby projects before I started doing it for a living, but I can't begin to tell you how much I've learned just in those 5 1/2 months. Learn on the job, and you'll get paid for going to school!
Mr. Strap I don't believe you read my second post. As I said before, I have been framing for four years. I'm looking to learn the finite details that I've found you can't learn on the job site.
4 years?..what "finite" details are there that you need filling in on Van? ( please don't take this question the wrong way...I'm just curious on which aspects of framing you feel you need to be schooled up on after 4 years )
To give you an example. My 4 th year apprentice at 20 years of age can be left on a job to set out plates, cut the frame, stand it ( with help ) and pitch the roof. ( by the way, we frame and trim ) In other words, by an apprentices 4th year, if he can't keep pace with a tradesman he won't cut it.
Now I'll admit some apprentices have lousy masters and others don't get the experience, ( we had a 4th year on loan to us recently from a Govt dept and he wasn't equal to a second year ) some have a better apptitude toward the work and others are klutz's.
regards
markhttp://www.quittintime.com
I guess let me take a shot at this .
There are just as much differences with bosses as there are the trades. Mike said it best , although there are many here that have " solid advice". Mike answered your question after he was done kidding. Pick a destination in the "US", that does what you want to do. Pick a place that rocks , with money, clients, and a lot of your type of constuction going on. Switch bosses if you are not satisfied , until you find one that suits your needs. Be open from the start like you have us here in this forum. You could explain that the pay issue is contingent on the training you will recieve . Trades like carpentry is a brotherhood training like other apprentice type trades we have. These forums are also brotherhood training. Most all of us here have went that route. So,... I believe that is what you will get here , and also its the way it is done. Ive had many teachers in the trades and I got a buffett of different ones . [bad to great] I believe your biggest problem so far has been your boss. Dont hesitate to trade up. I guess this wouldnt be fair if I didnt tell you about my own feelings on the subject.
I always have sized up the student to the training I would give him . I wouldnt spend time with a student I didnt feel would benifit me . Ive never had a student that is as serious sounding as you are however.
Tim Mooney
Van,
Sorry I missed your second post. Again, though, in the barely six months I have been doing production framing, I have learned a lot more about some of the finer points of framing than almost any of my local counterparts. A lot of this I can contribute to my boss, who has taken time occasionally to explain to me why he does things like he does, or why X has to be so wide for Y to fit, etc. For everything else, I have read up on it, and then went out and practiced it on a project and used trial and error; i.e. I just learned how to frame a hip roof by putting one on my shed. I agree with others here that having a good boss makes a lot of difference, and you shouldn't be afraid to go elsewhere to further yourself. Now am I saying I can frame a house from slab to ridge? Heck no! But do I consider myself to be way ahead of others with similar time-in-trade? Yes, and that is from watching other crews and what their young apprentices do. BTW, I am 19, so I know I have quite some experience to go, yet I also don't plan on being a helper for the next ten years LOL. In any case good luck and check out Larry Haun's three books from Taunton; they're worth every cent!
Van- Take up Mike Smith's offer and give him a year. Get paid for your hands on schooling.
Half of good living is staying out of bad situations.
Forget the primal scream, just Roar!
Orange Coast College in Costa Mesa Calif has a good construction program. They teach a wide variety of courses each a semester long such as Residential framing, metal framing, roof framing, residential electrical, rough/finish plumbing. http://www.orangecoastcollege.com
Darkworksite4: When the job is to small for everyone else, Its just about right for me"
So what is a good framing video? I see the one ad in FHB. Is that the best?
I know a lot but theres so much I dont know because I do it all and don't JUST specialize in framing. When I framed the house in my website below the post and got to the gambrel roofs tied into the center roof and in the rear of the house becomes a flat roof, that you cant see in the pix my dreams at night became nightmares. Obviously I accomplished my goal. House is finished real fine and sold and onto my next project in November, that 322 year old crib I bougt and I'm concerned about the addition I designed that is being drawn up for me as I type. A video sure might help.......ya think? Cant hurt.
BE well
Namaste
AndyIt's not who's right, it's who's left ~ http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
Andy,
Will Holladay has a video "A Roof Cutter's Secrets." That's pretty good. It all depends on what your looking for and how experienced you are.
The one your talking about is from Steve peters. I have all those to. He's actually out probably in his yard or a jobsite somwhere. He built walls about 2' off the ground and shows how to do Hip/Valleys and also an octagon roof, different plate height situations.
Larry Haun has I think 3 videos Floors, walls and rafters.
Video can't hurt, for me anything I learn from a book or video I'll try, If it works, great.
Joe Carola
Joe,
Some seem a bit pricey. You ask how experianced I am. Well look at my website below to see the roof/house I framed on my latest project. I had a real hard time with it but obviously got it done. My next project will be a 322 year old house. An addition I designed added to it. Tying in may give me grief as the existing old roof rafters are quite undersized. I will be adding to the addition an enclosed widows walk or cuppola that probably will be quite large to allow light into the master bedroom below and give the house more interest. Similar to some of those in the last FHB. I would love to see one video from a weathered framer doing basic doggy dormers and tie ins. Spose no matter what I do I always doubt myself. Low self esteam I reckon. My wife thinks I'm nuts from all the projects I've accomplished.
Thanks and be well
Namaste
AndyIt's not who's right, it's who's left ~ http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
I agree with mark about it doesnt take 4 years to learn how to frame but I also think a course is the way to to go. The college I referanced has a 1 semester long stick residential framing class. In that class you learn, to use trasients and lasers to survey and lay out the site set forms, flooring systems and different framing methods such as the calif corner and others and basic roof cutting. squaring /plumbing walls and how and sheathing . Plus the associated codes we spent 2 classes a week 4 hours a class for a semester(about 6 mos) mostly hands on with about a 1-2 hour lecture.lpus plenty of reading and test. Now for roof cutting there is a seperate semester long class with alot of math. The guy who taught the class was a ex framer who built for tract and custom homes (He said he had one featured inna mag I dont know what mag) but he was very good. These courses were meant to teach to join a framing crew and not be dead wieght but be able to carry your own sure theres lots more to learn but I gets you started and importantly employed.
They have many different courses. I took a residential wireing with a guy who was working for a company who got short of electricians and heard the boss discussing the need to pick up one. he told the boss he knew electrical and now 4 years later is getting journeymans pay on prevailing wage jobs. Theres something to be said about schools but all schools are not the same. I took some classes from another college and what a waste of time it was. It was supposed to have the same curriculum but man the quality of students and instruction was day and night. Those guys I wouldnt let build a dog house. They eventually got rid of the instructor and have a new group of folks in there. I might give them another shot if they offer something I like.
Darkworksite4: When the job is to small for everyone else, Its just about right for me"
One point about a school is that you can be safe to assume that you will learn many correct ways of doing something. Working for a good crew can do the same thing, however not all framing crews are good, willing to teach and do things right.
Sometimes its hard to get on or even find a crew that will continue to learn new things (such as going to seminars, reading new books, watching videos etc) Some people can learn on any crew However if a crew is stuck in ancient framing practices, and you wish to advance, not all crews are up to that sort of thing.
If a framing schools also goes over bidding, cost estimation, materials and usesage it might leaning towards teaching future leads or foreman.
Andy,
Your right they are pricey. The choice is yours if you think the might help.
Your next project sounds real interesting to me, to bad your not in New Jersey ;-).
I do alot of additons and tying in to existing is where alot of architects make mistakes. Alot of additions I do on old houses the rafters are 2x6's.
The problems is when they design an addition, let's say to extend the Master bedroom perpendicular off the back of the house, and the existing house has a Hip Roof.
The existing rafters are 2x6's and the new rafters are 2x10's, but the top plain of the new roof and old roof have to match so you can continue the roof line straight through.
You have to change your plate height or adjust your birdsmouth but the bottom of your rafters don't line up and the ceiling is to be cathedral.
Also they want a dormer right where the existing corner of the house and the new addition start.
Fine, but now Mr existing Hip is there, so now you have to remove the Hip so you can frame your new dormer. One side of the dormer is 2x6's and the other side is 2x10's.
These things can all be worked out with firring down rafters, adding new rafters .......
The addition I just did had 14 dormers and a 14' diameter tower with 21/12 pitched roof.
The main roof was 6.5/12 and the dormers were 12/12 all cathedral.
I tripled the dormer rafters and strong a line on them and braced them nice and straight and then I built the side walls out of 2x6's on the ground first with sheathing and then brought them up and nailed them on top of the triples.
I could go on all day but I don't want to bore you ;-).
Andy, you don't have low esteem because if you did you wouldn't take on these nice projects like your doing now and the house on your website BTW Nice Job!
As far as your wife thinking your NUTS.
My Wife will tell you to look up NUTS in the dictionary and "Joe Carola" would be the definition ;-).
Joe Carola
Joe
Not boring in the least. I'd love to see some pics of your work. One thing I'd love to do on my newest project is to frame in a tower in front(silo look) to bring together an area of my rear addition where two roof lines wont look right from the front of the house. An addition that will be perpendicular to the main house in the rear (Hard to discribe). I pretty much have expressed what I want to my arch so we'll see if it works on paper. The silo would have many windows in it including the roof. It would be an entry into the kitchen area. Now who has the handle on "nuts"?
Your right, too bad you werent one state over....I mean that in geographical terms not mental....lol
Be well
Namaste'
AndyIt's not who's right, it's who's left ~ http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
Andy,
I'm back on that job again this week, I'll take pictures of the whole job, all the dormers the Tower/Silo, I'll take pictures looking up at the rafters,. all 32 of them together.
The only thing is I bought a digital camera, I have no idea how to use it or post them here.
Did you ever hear of Flex-Ability Concepts?
When I was framing the round walls, I had to make my own headers.
Just recently this company came out with Flex-C Header. If your going to do this you should really check into it. It looks pretty good, not to mention how much time you will save as opposed to making your own headers.
The one header I had was about 56", I made a jig on the floor with my top and bottom plates and glued, clamped and screwed layers of ¼" plywood together.
This part of the addition has stone. the stone mason is still there, He's not done with the round walls yet but It's going to look great when he's done.
i
Andy,
I have no idea what just happened, I must of hit something while I was typing. I looked up and the screen was blank.
Must be my Good Looking rough, calloused, hard, Modeling hands ;-).
Joe Carola
I have been looking around in old threads etc about the Peters Roof Videos and you seem to be the only person who has them. For a semi roof novice are they worth it if my boss is buying?
Thanks
Nick
School of hard knocks... You come to Michigan and if you have any natural ability and a little luck I'll teach you what I know....... it will take 15-20 minutes the rest you will learn in the field. Build straight square and level use a string to straighten it can be simple it just depends on the application. Offer stands if your intrested.
For those of you who have been to such schools and feel you have benefitted or that it has been worth your while, more power to you.
My opinion though still stands that it doesn't take 2 years to learn to frame. That is 4,000 hours.
4,000 hours of time you are not earning an income. Not only not earning an income , you are paying someone else.
Let's be look at this subjectively and break a job up into areas.
Set Out
Cut out
Erection
Now lets take setting out. How long does it take to learn?
Let's be generous and say 40 hours. ( that's 40 hours of one on one )
Cut out?
Again, let's be generous and say 40 hours.
Erection?
40 hours is over generous...so we are up to 120 hours.
Now we look at the trickier stuff....trusses and pitched roofs.
I say learning to read truss layouts and standing ...40 hours.
Pitched roofs?
Rafter square use . 40
Calcs? 40
Cutting 40
Non standard suff ( scotch valleys etc ) 120
What are we up to? 400 hours??
I would like to know where the other 3,600 hours will be spent?
Maybe I'm oversimplifying, but if this is the path one is looking at, I would see more value in approaching a top notch framing crew and paying them to let you work with them.
regards
mark
I dunno Mark...your 4 year kid can do all that...so what'd he do with all the extra time?
Jeff.......Sometimes on the toll road of life.....a handful of change is good.......
Hi Jeff
Maybe I should have said those are classroom hours? Tell me Jeff. The 15 months you spent getting your degree in carpentry, do you consider it time well spent?
regards
markhttp://www.quittintime.com
Very much so. About 1/2 the time was classroom work...theory and such. Book work.
The other was hands on. Either working in the cab shop. Working on throw away stuff...such as the "dog houses" in the roof framing labs, or building then tearing apart full size walls.....and most of the time at the end was working in the "house".....which was a full scale house structure built inside the warehouse section of the school. 2 stories and a roof...build off the concrete floor.....
The first semister was spent demo-ing the "house" that the last class had built.
I haven't cut a rafter in about a year...but if I had to.....I'd just get out the old note books, do a quick review of the notes...and I'd bet money they'd go together and fit like a glove.
On the job training won't quickly tell ya the theory behind the numbers.....and if someone joins a framing crew....I'd bet...even after 2 years.....it's still pretty much..."hey kid, I laid out the first one....now cut me 20..."
Roof framing and advanced roof framing were only 2 classes.....in the 5 terms.....that spanned the 15 months.....and in that short time......I'd estimate I framed over 50 roofs.........
Sure, they were all 4' x 5'..and waist high......but after ya lay out the first one..and the next coupla fit tight.......it's all the same.
I had a terrible time at the school......the management sucked, they admissions people lied to me.....I even called the state inspector in when my account funds were "misplaced"......almost got kicked out because I wouldn't let the "ADD" kid cheat off of me and steal one of my projects to turn in as his own.....lotsa hassles.....
and I still saw the positives of a good education and fully recommend anyone considering it to go. Good teachers make all the difference.....though I'd recommend having a bit of a background with some real world job site experience under your belt before going.....so you know what questions to ask.
I had never set foot in a cab shop before in my life...aside from HS shop....and I learned that I did that stuff pretty good....and now, on site cab building....mainly built-ins...is a good portion of my work.
I learned that a roof....no matter how chopped up and difficult it looks....is pretty much a series of triangles...and geometry will get ya thru. I learned that Dad was mosty right on all the interior K and B stuff he taught me over the years.
I wouldn't be charging good money for half the stuff I do now without the training. And I got all that...in just 15 months....instead of waiting years on the job site till the right jobs came along so I could watch someone else do it...and hope they were doing it right!
I had a 19 year old kid as a shop partner thru the whole thing.....he graduated, went to work for a coupla companies in his small town...realised they did everything half-assed....quit to keep his sanity....started doing small jobs on his own....and is now the youngest and most respected contractor in his town. Kids 25 yrs old with a crew of employees......charges a good price..... full insurance...offers health ins to his guys.....You tell me how many guys that walk onto a job site at 19 are in that position 6 yrs later?
Not many....and all that kid had a background in was cabinet making. He's building and designing additions...and before school.....he never even framed a wall.
Schooling will only take a student as far as that student will allow....but for some......it's the fast track.
Jeff
.......Sometimes on the toll road of life.....a handful of change is good.......
Jeff has pointed out the same problems I feel I've faced in getting a well rounded education on the jobsite. He also talks about the same kind of results I envision from going to school. I understand that if I shopped around and found the right boss five years from now I could be proficient in framing. But why not go to school for a year or two and come out of it having the confidence to start my own business? Some of you have said that the knowledge gained in school rarely translates to effective skills on the job site. I feel with the experience I already have that shouldn't be a problem. I think it all boils down to the fact that I don't want to run a crew ten or fifteen years from now. I want to start before I'm twenty-four.
Sorry van, struck out in trying to locate that school in NC. __________________________________________
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
http://www.quittintime.com/
yes , but..
you were talking about a framing school.. Jeff was describing a Construction Technology course.....Apples & Chocolate barsMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Van, if the lead guy won't teach you, then go to another place, but on the job (and getting paid) is the way to go. If you want to concentrate on framing, and learn how to think, work for a remodeler. Ask to work on the framing end of their jobs. In remodeling you have alot more problem solving to do, but more demo. too. Look for a high-end builder and you might get more hand frame roof experience.
I always want guys on my crew who want to learn. Makes it alot easier when more heads understand what's going on. I worked with a guy once who went to a fairly good carpentry school, but he wanted to know it all right now, today. He peppered me with questions, which I answered, but it was a bit exasperating when he would come the next morning and tell me he figured out the rafter lengths I had walked through with him the day before and came up with a different number and why was that? On this occasion I had to tell him it would have to wait, we had rafters to put up. On the job, you have to produce! You can't teach all day, every day.
Good luck Van, If you can't get dirrections to Mike's school, I'm alot closer in MN. Same tuition though.
Steve
Andy,
Are you DRUNK?
Joe Carola
Nope but willingIt's not who's right, it's who's left ~ http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
Ba Bing!!
jeff.......Sometimes on the toll road of life.....a handful of change is good.......
BA Bing? Sappranos tonight bro.......not to mention Larry David. Like LArry David? Best f'in comic ever!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Be well
Namaste'
andyIt's not who's right, it's who's left ~ http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
Andy,
This is Van, no wait, this is Joe ;-)
Hold on Andy, Tony Saprano's on the phone, he wants to have a coctail with you and Larry David at BA DA BINGS are you game?
Van, Joe Carola
Andy,
Are you sure your not Drunk?
Joe Carola
Joe
Please dont announce it to the world thank you...lets see...two black and tans......one major shot of JAck and and and and........go easy on me Joe...its Friday night dude.....if my wife looks at this thread I............
Be kinda well
Nama
PS...yeh......I kicked back a few,,,,,,,maybe I should start a thead concerning kicking back a few due to you.....lol
It's not who's right, it's who's left ~ http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
Edited 10/6/2002 7:08:15 PM ET by Andy Clifford(Andybuildz)
Andy,
I was starting to take what you said serious.
If your were serious, I was going to tell you that Long Island and New Jersey Isn't that far from eachother after all and maybe we could meet 1/2 way and see who makes it back home to watch the Sapranos.
I know that I would be able to type into everybody the reviews.
Andy drunk or straight, no reason to talk like IDIOT. But I guess that's why computers make people feel safe.
Are you sure you have your own buisness? Or did you just borrow someones website because yesterday when I was going back and forth with you about buisness I thought that I was talking to a professional.
I 'll tell what, let's not ruin Van's thread and don't respond to me here I'll give my e-mail address right here and I'll deal with you there.
My apologies to anyone that reads my posts to Andy and to you Van on your thread.
[email protected]
Framer,
Idiot? Been in a healthy biz over 27 years. Made serious money and serious friends and serious realationships through serious projects. I dont need to answer to anyone other then those that really know me. Most around here do.... so if you cant deal with a Friday night flip....then when I grow up I'll try and be more like you.
Sorry for not being up to par with you..I dont need your E mail address but thanks anyway friend
Be well
Namaste
andy
PS....so it wasnt Friday and I popped a few.....lighten up bro....probably shouldnt come on here after those "few" but I didnt think I was the first or will be the last...sorry for any inpropriorties. By the way.......Tony lives on Fox Hunt.....same street as mine..different town and different attitude. Wonder how he gets here and there. They only show his good side......lol
It's not who's right, it's who's left ~ http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
Edited 10/6/2002 8:57:15 PM ET by Andy Clifford(Andybuildz)
Andy,
It's all water under the bridge!
Believe me, I 'm no saint!
BTW, the house that they film the Soprano's in is a mile from my house. Alot of the filming is done in the center of my town.
My wife's aunt knows somebody James Gandolfini knows and she went to the set one day and baked him Italian cookies and they took pictures. She said he's one of the nicest guys she's ever met, other then ME ;-)
Joe Carola
Cool Joe
Yeh..sorry.....I most definatly kicked back one to many.
When I first heard Tony Saprano looking in his new house and they said its on Fox Hunt, I had to crack up cause thats the name of my street (till november, then its Goose Hill.....one animal to another). I saw his TV show wife who's name I forget, at a Fine arts cinema near me give a lecture about acting. Was a $200 a seat benefit that of course my 12 year old daughter Jolie walked right into. I just saw and spoke to her in the lobby. Jolie wants to be an actress and does acting camp each summer. Takes acting classes at a local community theater and was just an understudy for the lead role because the director said shes incredable and wanted to get her into the mode of REAL theater. She actually did the part this past Sunday and so rocked. Anyway.....off to work. My customers dont want me there till 10 today..ugh. Customers from hell. Cant wait to get started on my new/old house in November. Spose when you hit 50 and have built yourself up to a place where you can do your own cribs its all gravey IMHO. :)
BE well and talk soon
Namaste'
Andy
It's not who's right, it's who's left ~ http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
Edited 10/7/2002 9:05:09 AM ET by Andy Clifford(Andybuildz)
defininetely very happy!