I am a young female who has been working the administrative side of construction for 2 years now. I have been trying to find a field job as a carpenter and am not getting the type of response I am hoping for. Anyone out there have any recommendations on how to break into the field as a female? I have limited field experience, mostly from Habitat for Humanity build days, but am anxious to learn more. I know there are apprenticeship programs for carpentry in larger cities, but what would be the recommendation for someone in a smaller mountain town?
Finally, anyone have any advice on the usefulness of field experience when wanting to learn more to move into project management, I think it is necessary but some of my older colleagues disagree and say you can get by without it?
Thank you!
Replies
I think it is valuable but not indispensable to have field experience. Once you put on a tool belt, you stick your nose to the grindstone and maybe forget to look up and around at the bigger picture. A tradesman, ooops tradesperson works primarily with materials. A managing person works with materials, scheduals, personalities, shippments, communications, money, etc.
You need to be a global thinker to manage a job, not locked into the daily grind. architects need more hands on experience so they don't design things that can't be built or so they have an idea how things go together. A manager already has the plans in hand and it's time to get it built. Ability to communicate with subs or foremen and ask pertinent questions of them is highly important.
Parable time.
I've told this before but no memory of which thread - Oh Yeah it's Women in construction or some such title. Try the search.
Anyway, I was on a job where a little gal was hired to push a broom and keep the job cleaned up and act as gophur for the PM. He was a jerk, lazy, full of BS, incompetant, etc. She could communicate well. While she's pushing broom, she's talking to the guys and helping communications all around the job. Tells manager, Electricians need the steel monkeys to weld that dohig before they can pull wires to the attic to let the painters get on with blah blah blah. He, being lazy lets her make appropriate phone calls in his name while he shoots BS with his drinking buddies. Long story short, she keeps her eyes and ears open and works hard in the interests of getting the job done and the subs from killing eachg other and within a couple months, she's running the job. The big wigs from out of state ended up noticing too. By end of job they had offered PM his walking papers and her his job and salary if she would move with the company.
Excellence is its own reward!
"The first rule is to keep an untroubled spirit. The second is to look things in the face and know them for what they are." --Marcus Aurelius
Thanks to all for the advice. Piffin, you say that field experience is helpful but not indispensable- is there one area of field work that might be more helpful than others- ie would you recommend to others looking for experience to work as a laborer for a general or working on the subcontractor side for a framer or trim carpenter...or either?
Thanks
In a small town youmay not be able to be that choosy.
A lot depends on your goal. You kind of hinted at proget manager but be more specific. Describe how you visualize your self in fifteen years. Residential or remodel or commercial. Then work on a flight path to get there. Residential usually is run with lead carpenters so starting on a framing crew could maybe help. How physical are you? If you are going to a gang that frames homes with guys 6'2" and min weight of 180# while you are a svelte 132# with your work boots laced up and a cup of coffee in hand, you have a hint of why you aren't getting takers. Most of us have found that women do better at finer detail work like painting or trim work. If you came to me wanting to work for a year to learn the process, I'd have to question whether I wanted to invest time teraching you with little hope that you'd be around long enough to pay off. If I were a large buiding outfit with potential in the future to need a PM, it could be a good marriage, figuratively speaking, that is. So maybe you need to look for that kind of team so they can bring you up their way.
One thing that comes to mind is as a delivery person or sales person for the lumberyard. You get to know all the builders and how they work as well as hearing some scuttlebutt about the industry.
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Excellence is its own reward!
"The first rule is to keep an untroubled spirit. The second is to look things in the face and know them for what they are." --Marcus Aurelius
First, I am closer to a svelte 140 and suprisingly strong for my 5'3 frame- a comment made often on the jobsite- so while I understand the concern, one day on the job would likely cause those concerns to disappear. Second, I understand the concern as well that I might not be worth the investment if I only wanted to work a year. If I was to get out in the field I would make sure that I didn't give myself a time limit to get out. a year is just a general idea at this point to get some experience under the belt so to say, but if that year was up and I still had more to learn, I would likely stay. As far as I know, an employer would be just as happy to put time into a quick learner/efficient worker, than some of the guys that I see who have been on the job just to be on the job- not because they remain motivated about what they do.
In fifteen years, I hope to be past the project manager stage and into the owner stage of a GC company in residential and remodel construction. I feel that some experience in the field will help me move up into a role lik PM quicker as well as more confidently. If anything, there is nothing to lose by trying it for a bit, at least it gets me out from behind the desk. I'll keep looking and I appreciate your advice.
oh, and I hate coffee- so while all the guys are hanging out drinking their morning brew, I will already be working
You have a great attitude! I think it won't be long until you find what you are looking for. Good luck to you. By the way what area of the country are you in?Tamara
Thanks,
and I am in eagle county, Colorado (Vail Valley area)
That's an area with a lot of unique thinking architects. You could troll their offices to get the word out. One or two of them know of decent builders and who is needing you kind of help..
Excellence is its own reward!
"The first rule is to keep an untroubled spirit. The second is to look things in the face and know them for what they are." --Marcus Aurelius
for a manager, coffee break can be one of the most productive times of the day.
A manager needs to know his/her people, good and bad. Conversations can be directed and fishing lines thrown out. You can get suggestions for other ways to do something - which is the point for you. Guys swap stories which have embedded object lessons. Sure there are times when thge only lesson is don't drink so much the night before but plenty of other sound construction advice can be had at Breaktime..
Excellence is its own reward!
"The first rule is to keep an untroubled spirit. The second is to look things in the face and know them for what they are." --Marcus Aurelius
I don't believe that you have to actually do the work. Being on the job site and seeing the process and problems will give you an education in construction. As an architect my best learning experience has been resolving problems on the job site. Listening to the different sub's issues and then learning from them has made me a better architect. In time you learn what's a real issue and what's just bullsh*t. Sweeping floors or being the super's helper/gofor let's you onto the construction site. You can learn from there. Recently had a project in Phoenix where the super had an Admin. By the end of the job she was riding the subs and could tell you where there were problems or issues and she protected the super by being the hard ####. He could then negotiate each issue.
If you want to get on in the manager/owner way of life it is good to have site experience but crucial to have money experience. Get onto estimating/surveying/project management and it will hold you in good stead.
Any organized larger contractor will always need these roles filled by compatant people and take a construction college course.
Good Luck
Phil (surveyor and proud of it)
Hello, and welcome to this forum! I'm sure you've already read much useful information on this thread, but as a framer helper, I thought I'd add my no-nonsense $0.02.
Perhaps you've already had the thought about some of these subs who've turned you down that, he is just a sexist or somethijng to that effect. And it is true, there are many of them everywhere, not just in the trades. I will tell you though, there is just as much potential for women as for men in most building trades. I am in no way discriminating; rather just saying that some jobs, especially framing, are really hard on your body and even if you can perform the daily tasks it will take a large toll on your body. On the flipside, my GC's trim carpenter is a woman who does all her work solo, and I know of another woman who is a crew leader for our slab crew, and she works harder than any of the men.
Now my second point: You say you want to gain practical experience to help you as a CM later on. I find that actual experience is invaluable as a CM because it helps him/her to understand the daily problems faced by each sub and it also help with communication between them. I've worked for a little-college, mostly hands-on types as well as fresh out of business school types and I can definitely say I prefer the former. As far as which trade to learn, finding a full-line carpentry crew would be nice (i.e., one who forms and pours the slab, frames, trims, sides, roofs), but they rarely exist these days; they're called "remodelers" now LOL. If I had to choose the most useful trade it would probably be framing, but then again I am more than a little biased.
Based upon what you've written here, you're a self-motivated, hard-working woman who has some limited experience already. I would make sure I told whatever crew leader you approach that. Being able to understand directions is also essential to work for someone else. When you are selcting a crew, make sure the crew leader is one who is willing to work with you. I can't overstate this point, because there are so many CL's out there who just tell you to do something and then expect you to know how to do it, even though they know you don't have much experience. And above all find one who doesn't see your sex as being a detriment ( so long as you carry your weight). One more thing: whether it's right or wrong, as far as co-workers' comments and general discussion is concerned. Profanity and sexual innuendo abound at most production sites, even though most of the crews are professionals at what they do. If you cannot tolerate this and cannot understand that female or not you will be treated as the underdog for a while (until you get up to speed skill-wise), then you need to reconsider.
Well, in any case, good luck and know there are many out there who know that women are capable and that there should be more women in the trades.
On behalf of all remodelors everywhere, I would like to graciously thank you for the compliment. Most building crews can specialize. We remos have to know it all.
;)
And for my next trick, I'd like to introduce you two and see if we can get y'all together for a date. You're both young and in love - with construction. And if a relationship were to develope...What a gang of little nailers you two could raise!
BTW, many builders and remos don't have foul language on jobs. If you can't wipe your shoes and hold your tongue, you'll never make it in remodeling.
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Excellence is its own reward!
"The first rule is to keep an untroubled spirit.
The second is to look things in the face and know them for what they are."
--Marcus Aurelius
Piffin, I couldn't agree more on most if not all your points! I know for remodelers, especially, professionalism in all its aspects is essential for a good contractor-customer relationship. What I was referring to regarding the profanity thing is like my crew: Sometimes we're out in the very back of a neighborhood and we're the only ones around for 500 yards. Hey, the banter is bound to get a little creative, hehe. But seriously, even though we're "just the framers" we know how to act when the homeowners actually come out or when one of the GC's office boys makes a stop by. And as far as the remodeling thing is concerned, I've been thinking of maybe switching fields from strictly framing to remodeling here in the next year or so, b/c I'd like to diversify my skills. And yeah, I know the saying "framers don't always make good remodelers" and of course my crew will flat out refuse to hire anyone who is a "remodeler", but I think I'd do all right at it. Anyways...
Kind of shy about meeting Dana are you?.
Excellence is its own reward!
"The first rule is to keep an untroubled spirit.
The second is to look things in the face and know them for what they are."
--Marcus Aurelius
Captian why wouldn't they hire someone that remodels? Your statement has confused me. I find that someone that can truly remodel can do just about do it all. Around here there are many old homes (80 years plus) that need to be dealt with as far as remodel/additions etc. Your typical builder can't seem to deal with it, but find a good remodeler and it amazes me. Again maybe I just know a few of the remodelers that can really do it ALL. Tamara
A sub contracting crew that specializes in one thing only will amaze you with how efficiently they can work and how much gets done. It happens at double to triple the speed of an all around crew. There are somne here who thought that I was lying when I mentiuoned the rate at which I used to lay shingles by hand. I once roofed behind a crew who threw up a new house every three days, framed, sheathed, with windows and doors in. Same six floorplans, swapped left and right.
Now that I do custome remodeling, I'm quite sure that I would slow any roofing or framing crew down. It's not just that I am slower than they, but in working together, I would get in their way and slow the whole shebang.
Conversely, a fast production crew in my remodels would wreak havoc because remos are full of suprises and rabbit chases..
Excellence is its own reward!
"The first rule is to keep an untroubled spirit.
The second is to look things in the face and know them for what they are."
--Marcus Aurelius
I understand now. Our crew does new building from ground up they do it all except plumbing/electric/hvac. They also do historical stuff and remodeling. Keeps our company busy year round. I see what you and the captian are talking about now.Tamara
I'm not saying that remodelers aren't good at what they do, as most are; also, it is true that remodelers do it all. However, in production homebuilding each sub wants helpers that can do a specific task as quickly and efficiently as possible, not helpers who can do everything pretty well but not as fast.
If your (intermediate) goal is to be a PM then you should decide if hiring on as a helper is a step toward that goal. Honestly, I can't see how it is.
I think most larger builders need assistant supers to run around, do errands, etc. on the management side of things. Usually these aren't highly skilled positions. I think that this is the route to PM, not being the laborer on a framing crew or the new guy for a trim sub.
Another choice is to attend school somewhere and in between semesters or whatever work for a builder in management; or, attend classes at a community college maybe not as a 3-4 yr degree student, but taking business/some construction management, and meanwhile work for a builder as above.
Carpentry is fun and can be a very fulfilling and beautiful thing, but unless you want the actual physical experience for some reason, I don't see how it's the thing to do if your immediate goal is project management. If you want to develop as a *carpenter* and ultimately go into PM, that's another story. I think in PM you're on the job enough to get that experience, and if you're basically an open-minded person and a good communicator you'll understand where the carpenters AND the supers are coming from with their own emotional/practical/psychological issues.
best, GO
PS. As a framing helper turned remodeler apprentice who's *finally* getting to frame walls flat (on a single-story addition -- waited 3 yrs since I left that framing crew to do this!) I can say that a framer might be faster, but I'd rather be remodeling (most of the time)!
Wow, not only am I getting great (and varied) advice and opinions on my dilemma- which is greatly appreciated- I have also found my very own matchmaker. Thanks for trying. Again, I am located in Vail, CO, so keep trying:)
I am realizing through reading everyone's opinions and stories, that there is no right or wrong way for me to move forward and that the path I choose will lead me somewhere great no matter the starting point, if I believe in what i need to do. I think that is the best lesson of all
thanks to all for the words of wisdom
Going to the Habitat build days can give you a good chance to network.
If it's a small town, tell everyone you know what you're interested in doing. Word gets around the coffee shops, and it might help out.
Sounds like you've already talked to some contractors, but not gotten hired? Keep after them. They may not have taken you seriously the first time. Ask again.
Another thought comes to mind, if you want experience - Take on some small side jobs. That will get you some experience, and you can branch out as you see fit. That will also get a reputation started for you, and will make you look more attractive (As an employee) to the contractors.
Last of all - Hang around here. You'll pick up on lots of good info, and eventually will be able to discuss a multitude of construction related things intelligently with anybody.
Best of luck. Post back and let us know how things turn out.
The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing. [Edmund Burke]
Don't know where your at, but many states have active chapters of NAWIC- National Association of Women In Construction
http://www.nawic.org/
Maine has an active chapter and has one large general contractor that actively recruits women. http://www.cianbro.com/press/newsview.asp?sid=1096 They have an annual job fair. Your local chapter is worth looking up and joining if only for the contacts.
Edited 11/11/2002 11:15:01 AM ET by jc
Finding field experience is a long road, especially for a female. I would stay where you are until you find a boss who's not a chauvanistic neanderthal!
How is your skill level, general knowledge, and willingness to learn?
You'll have to sell yourself. I would find a reputable builder with the resourses to hire a wide variety of people, because most builders are going to look at you as just another grunt when you show up for the the interview. You will need to have a special skill to sell to break in above the laborer level.
Best of luck!
And yes,to be a good project manager, you DO need to have a good hands-on background in all phases of residential construction. No exceptions!