Greetings,
My gravel lane spans a little creek you could jump across unless it’s rained hard. There’s a 6’ steel culvert in place but the base is washing out and so is the top. I’d get pics but would have to spend some hours hacking down thorn bushes to get a view.
I’d like to rebuild myself on the cheap with something that would last. Don’t know squat about bridge work…hoping you guys can help me out yet again.
Think I’d like to leave the culvert in place and span over it. Here’s what I have in mind:
-backhoe trenches well back from the creek banks (and below frost line), leaving a span of about 20’
-fill trenches with crete, rebar
-set plastic or metal pans; would position a couple inches about current span grade for possible frost heave
-pour 6†slab, 16’ wide, copious rebar – maybe weld to the rebar in the footings
Does this sound feasible? Will a 6†slab – 20’ long x 16’ wide – support a heavy truck without using I-beams? Rebar specs/schedule? Better ideas?
BTW, this is a private lane in a very secluded location. I should probably get a permit but will take my chances after talking with my neighbors…long story.
Thanks,
Todd
Replies
You're joking, right?
i have heard of old railroad cars used as bridges for applications similar to yours. i see that boss replys that you are joking right!, don't get discouraged, in my opinion small bridge building is fairly simple, the design process is fairly complicated. there is a lot that goes into the engineering of even simple driveway access bridges, they should be designed for heavy fire truck support, in case there is a fire at your house you don't want the firemen or the firetruck hurt trying to save your house.
what i am trying to say is you can do the work yourself but make sure the design is correct/approved
there is nothing wrong with coming up with ideas to take to an engineer, which may simplify your project
i have heard of old railroad cars used as bridges for applications similar to yours.
A client did that. Worked well. Many concrete trucks have traversed it.
View Image
From an engineer's perspective, I'd say you're nuts.
A concrete box culvert or steel arch culvert is the best way to span a small stream like that. Second best is to put in decent concrete abutments, either poured in place or precast, and then put in steel beams and a wooden bridge deck. I don't see any reason not to hire a contractor to excavate and reinstall the existing culvert and place some stone wingwalls and riprap. That should be enough for the next 50 years, barring a major washout.
It needs to be designed and sized for the largest truck that will possibly cross it. A fire truck or oil tanker is around 25 tons. A full triaxle concrete truck is about 30 tons. A full 20-yard triaxle dump will be pushing 45 tons. For intermittent or infrequent use you can probably get away with less, but all it takes is one failure for you to be up to your eyeballs in poo.
Ask yourself - is the permit process and cost worth a potential lawsuit? You decide.
Well, I am not kidding, just ignorant on this topic. Figured I'd get a my ahole ripped a bit...that's okay.I am trying to attach a photo of a neighbor's bridge he hired out a while ago. 22' wide, he paid 23K. I don't have that kind of $ for this. The contractor put some steel beams under the pour, as was suggested here. Butress/riprap idea also makes good sense.Well, the suspension bridge looks cool but YOU gotta be kidding.Regarding liability, I hear you. I had a load of block delivered a while ago, driver said the present culvert had a lot of "give" when he drove across...think he was happy to be empty driving back across.Todd
My neighbor put a bridge across about a 20 ft span on Salmon creek in just a couple of days for less than $50.00 out of pocket.
Of course he was able to drop a couple of 30 inch dia DF trees to do it, probably could have hauled them to the mill for more than a concrete and steel bridge, but he got to spend a couple of days sawing 6" planks for the deck. His JD 550 drives over it just fine.
If yu can find a 20 ft steel slab 9 ft wide and 4-1/2" inches thick.... that will hold a concrete truck <G> (plus itself, about 18K#)
Does that same ditch run under your bridge? If it does, a 6" culvert isn't anywhere NEAR big enough. I would think a large culvert (or 2-3 smaller ones) would be a lot cheaper, esier, and safer than tring to pour abuttments and build a bridge. If you need help sizing culverts, there might be help available from your soil and water conservation district or something like that. You'd have to ask around locally. Whatever you do, don't undersize them. One good rain can wipe out thousands of dollars worth of work in a couple of minutes..One other thought to throw out - Have you thought about a low water crossing? Like a concrete crossing with some small culverts under it. When the water's low, it runs through the culverts. When it's high, you don't cross it. Maybe not a perfect solution. But they can work well and not require a lot of maintenance.
The game of life is not so much in holding a good hand as playing a poor hand well. [H.T. Leslie]
Ummm, jeez you guys, I was kidding.LeeSuspending disbelief.
That is a 6 foot culvert, not a 6 inch culvert, Ie 6' not 6"
How about a Trestle Bridge?
Our Permits Did Not allow modifications to the river, So the temp. tretle will allow the demo. of the old bridge, and building of the new one, regardless of the river flow.
FYI, about 10.5 for the temporary, and demo, plus about 15 for the new.
Boss,
Yeah, about 6 feet, maybe 5, didn't measure. I don't think the thing is too small.Big,
Very nice surroundings. Can't believe that's all it cost you with all the crew and heavy equipment! Loan me 25-30 grand and I'll have it for you the second Tuesday of next week...BTW,I like to fish for trout, one of the things I do best. It sure is nice having that little stream so close to seine minnows. A few dips and plenty of redfins. Fished a couple hours in the rain last Saturday and caught a nice mess of brownies on Penns Creek. Fillets on the grill...ummmmm.Anyway, appreciate all the input.Todd
"25-30 grand"
umm, I'm guessin there's bout 3 more zeros attached to that price tag - LOL!
How about a suspension bridge?
Lee
shirlee you jest!
Hey, don't call me shirlee.Lee
Here's a couple pictures of a homemade suspension bridge. I made some new mainlines for the thing, but I was leary of having any involvement in it at all.
The old is very swaybacked- the owners said that a log truck crossed once, and the deckbeams were touching the water. Most of the cable connections were tied with a robin's head knot. The old mainlines had a splice in the middle of the bridge, with too few cable clips too close together.
I wouldn't go on the record saying that suspension bridges are a diy project.
To the OP- If you're really set on doing this, either steel beams or pressure treated glue-lams would probably be the way to go. PT glue-lams will be easier to work with, and last a good long time if you're careful about drainage at the abuttments. If there was ever anything worth taking to an engineer, this project is it. You'll also need some beefy abuttments.
Bridges are rarely cheap.
zak
"so it goes"
Which river is that over? When I saw your pictures I thought that looked like the winthrop area, then read your profile. Used to do alot of camping, fishing, biking, and fishing up in Mazama. You live in a very beatiful area.
That bridge spans the Bitterroot river, a few miles outside of Hamilton Montana. It's a beautiful area, and it's a lot like the Methow area that you were talking about. Tough to make a living in both areas though. I really like Cashmere (that's where I live), not too close, not too far from the city and the people.zak
"so it goes"
That's a beautiful area too. Have done a little rock climbing up Icicle crrek canyon. You ever been to that little bakery right off hwy2 just before Cashmere? stopped in there a few years ago, really good. I'm just over the mountains from you, nice talkin with ya, I'll quit hijacking the thread now.
nothin wrong with a good hijack.
I used to spend a lot of time climbing in icicle canyon. You should stop at swiftwater, in Tumwater canyon, sometime- great bouldering, if you're into that.
The little bakery you're talking about is the Anjou bakery- I used to be a bread baker there, when I was going to community college hereabouts. It's a great place, though I don't go there much anymore- I make my own bread at home now, with a sourdough starter like they use.
I see you're in snohomish- I can't say I know much about it, but some of those antique shops there have some nice collections of handplanes. zak
"so it goes"
I was just lamenting the great collection of outdoor gear that's sitting in my garage gathering dust. I've got a two and a half year old daughter, a boy due any day, and moved into the house that took me 13 months to build last august. Haven't done much of anyting fun outdoorsy in awhile.
Got to do "outer Space" on snow creek wall about 6 years ago. Incredible, if you haven't been up it, do it. Plan to get out to Iclicle creek in late summer, early fall, will check out Tumwater Canyon if time permits.
Zak,
It looks almost 'xactly like a bridge I know across the Maury River in Goshen, VA. I'll have to dig out an old photo and post it here.
Billy
EDIT:
Here's a photo of the bridge -- it's not quite the same.
http://www.bridgemeister.com/pic.php?pid=788Billy
Edited 4/25/2006 6:39 pm ET by Billy
Edited 4/25/2006 6:40 pm ET by Billy
Well, of course I had to throw in a pic too.
We re-built this one....yep not a DIY project. "Many danger, grasshopper"Step one:
Open a beerStep two:
Hire a good contractorStep three:
Drink beer and watch with confidence while the contractor with years of experience, many thousands in tools and even more thousands in insurance gets the job done in short order without killing anyone. (or dropping the car in the creek)Yuk, Yuk
Peghead.
That's a great little bridge- can you tell me more about it? From the picture it looks like the mainlines have less than average sag/span. Are the beams/stringers wood or steel? I'd love to see more pictures.zak
"so it goes"
Thanks, This is a footbridge (116'span) that replaced an iron bridge that was washed away in the 50's. It's located in the pocono mtns of PA in a fishing club property I belong. We replaced the towers 2 summers ago after the old ones rotted away. We (as a timber frame co) used fresh white oak for the stations and re-laid cables per an engineers plan.
We put the camber in the walkway becasue it made sense to us.
So far so good.
I'd say to build one...budget 50K. Concrete is pricey these days. Not to mention the 6K for the cables. Carry on.
Unless you have a car that is 4 feet wide, and can navigate stairs, there won't be any cars dropping from -that- bridge into the creek, anyway.;o)
The destination is not the point. The completion is not the point. Enjoy today. If you can't enjoy today, then what is the point ?
Peghead, I think I recognize that bridge.
Any chance your sprawlville is on/around route 29 up the Delaware? Is that a bridge over the old canal?
Anyway, nice looking bridge.
EDIT: I scrolled down. Nevermind. Poconoes.
Still a very nice looking bridge. ;-)
"Let's get crack-a-lackin" --- Adam Carolla
Edited 4/27/2006 6:13 pm ET by philarenewal
Yep, poconos. I think there used to be a similar bridge across the Deleware above Pt Pleasant on Rt 29/River road. That on was steel. Hey this railroad car idea is pretty cool. Do you know how many rail cars there are in North America? ---1.2 Million. (knowledge from a past life) "kids today would be better off if the parents had to eat the spinach" Groucho Marx.
A suspension bridge requires anchors on each end that essentially weigh as much as the max load to be supported. So you'd be talking about pouring two two-ton anchors for a minimal bridge. That's a lot of concrete.
If Tyranny and Oppression come to this land, it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy. --James Madison
Fundamentally, I think there are two approaches to building something that will be safe and reliable, the first time. The first is to copy something that already works. To use an analogy, I know that if need to put a header in a load bearing wall, I need a 2 x something for a certain opening. Personally, I think this is the best method. It's cheap, easy, and minimizes the chances of mistakes.
The second method would be to engineer the heck out of something. To use the header analogy, you'd need to know the allowable bending and shear stresses, the dead and live loads on it, any stress concentration factors, bearing areas, and a slew of other things.
Designing a concrete structure is quite a bit more complex: there are a heck of a lot of things that will affect the strength and safety of it, most of which will not be visible from the outside of the structure. Concrete's is a semester long class with a lab with a reputation of being one of the most time consuming classes in the civil engineering ciriculum.
Unless you can find an existing design that you can copy exactly (which would include such details as soil composition, and internal details which would require prints), you're pretty much begging for trouble. My advice to you would be to work with somebody experienced, whether it's a contractor or an engineer.
Designing and building something that may need to support the fire truck going to put out your house by saying "that looks right" is a recepie for trouble.
This might sound like a really crazy idea but here it is anyway... and would only work if you are within 3-8hrs driving distance from a university with an engineering program...
but when I was studying architecture at the Technical University of Nova Scotia, they had summer programs where architecture and engineering students (sometimes together sometimes not) did real summer projects supervised and run by faculty.
If you don't really care what it looks like as long as it can take the loads it needs to and are willing to have some students camp out on your land for a while you might approach the university to work something out that could save you some money, give some engineering students some solid experience (designing, getting permits, building) and you might end up with something pretty great (or crazy) looking. There are definitely programs all over the place looking for just this kind of opportunity and it seems like just the right kind of situation for it.
You might put your location in your bio, it's something people often look for.
penny.
Live light enough to see the humour and long enough to see change.
-Ani DiFranco
"The fact is, what we're doing could be construed as - forgive me sir - collaboration with the enemy. Perhaps even as treasonable activity. Must we work so well? Must we build them a better bridge than they could have built for themselves?"
Is that quote from "The Bridge Over the River Kwi"? (Forgive my spelling--and is it "on" or "over"? Never can remember that. Yeah, just get some British soldiers; they'll build you a heck of a bridge!
Man that was fast.
Yep, "Bridge over the River Kwai". Dont know why that popped into my head reading this thread but now I want to go rent that movie. A true classic.
I read your post and just thought, that sounds like something that someone would have said to Guiness in that movie. Yeah, excellent movie.
Hey, what about an Army surplus Bailey Bridge? Might just work.
If it wasn’t for the Bank Payments,
Interest, Taxes, Wages, and Fuel Costs,
I wouldn’t have to charge you!!
old railroad flat car...
800,000 pond load rate..
10 feet wide...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming
WOW!!! What a Ride!
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
You just drove over the pic I posted...did it look familiar?
"You just drove over the pic I posted..."
I hope he didn't break his monitor...
Sleep, riches, and health, to be enjoyed, must be interrupted [Jean Paul Richter]
yup.. and rock solid...Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!<!----><!---->
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
In railroad terms, that 800,000 pounds is a standard buff strength, which is the endwise compressive load the flat car can take (within a train) without folding up. Beware, it doesn't mean the flat-car-as-bridge will support an 800,000 pound load.
John Ewing
got it..
no problem...
but if one car can take 3 tanks... at 72 tons each... I won't worry...Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!<!----><!---->
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
Todd,
I just wound up a very similar project. I decided to lay two large pipes, rather than one. My little runoff creek floods out of the banks on occasion, so I wanted to convey as much water as possible within the oconfines of the available "ditch". I got lucky and found three sticks of 36" concrete pipe. Then someone gave me two 4 foot sticks of the same pipe.
I laid them in the ditch this way
____ ____
____ __ __
So I have a sixteen foot wide roadway. I hauled in a couple of loads of cruched rock mixed with clay, then dressed the top with crusher run about 12 inches deep. Around here, there's no way they're going to take a cement mixer over a doubtful bridge. And that's what I was shooting for - passable by a mixer. Two pipes are better than one !
Greg
Edited 4/26/2006 12:00 pm ET by GregGibson
Galvinized corrogated pipe gets it's strength from the backfill used around it, and it's compaction. Why not excavate, re-compact new fill, and form up some rip-rip up and downstream from the pipe. If you go down into the bed a little way with a beam, then use some wire-basket rip rap you should stop the erosion. Rock rip-rap on the banks too above high-water mark.
You really aren't going to do it any cheaper than replacing the culvert.
If your road bed is a lot higher than the creek bed, you will need to use an extra long culvert or build head walls at each end to maintain your desired width of road bed.
The longer culvert will likely be cheaper, but the head wall give a nice finished look.
Terry
Your problem has already been engineered and solved. Railroad flatcars can be used as bridges but you need to find a source for the shorter models . Check out the following page:
http://www.tfhrc.gov/pubrds/fall95/p95a2.htm