Have a 4’x7′ four panel mahogany door with 1′ side lights. It was installed three years ago. It faces the west and get full afternoon Ga. sun. It was first stained and sealed with Minwax Helmsman Spar urethane. After one year the urethane was peeling and flaking off. It also had black specks which looked like mildew. The remaining finish was stripped and surface cleaned. Then Cabot Australian Timber Oil was installed because of its reference to mahogany decks and furniture. It looks well when installed but does not last. Has to be redone about every six months. There has to be a better solution
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You'll hate this.
Paint it.
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations
"If Brains was lard, you couldn't grease much of a pan"
Jed Clampitt
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I was taking Helmsman off of a fence panel I just painted. I think it's even worse when you just put it on.
From what little I understand of these things and what little I've gleaned off the Internet, Helmsman isn't a very high grade of finish.
It might be fine for some things but when you have a high standard for looks and want it to last, you need to step up to better finishes I think.
The Helmsman I'm taking off you can dig your thumbnail into it and just plough through it. Pretty soft. I'm not a finish exspert, but it seems like an oil/varnish finish that is very soft.
Right now, I'm leaning towards hydracote for a clear coat.
Email them and ask what they recommend.
Some of their finishes can be re-coated with just a little prep. The new coat adheres/burns into the last coat. Sounds good to me.
http://hydrocote.com/
I bought it from http://www.highlandwoodworking.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWCATS&Category=281
Will Rogers
Edited 8/3/2009 9:12 pm by popawheelie
Edited 8/3/2009 9:13 pm by popawheelie
Thanks. Am a fan of Highland Hardware for years. Heard of hydrocote but have not used it. will try it on small project.
Not really trying to defend Helmsman, but from what I've read, spar varnish is supposed to remain softer than other varnish so that it doesn't crack and sort of heals itself when scratched. As others said, a major consideration is UV protection, and as one of the early replies said, if you want the best UV protection, paint (or heavy-bodied stain) is probably your best bet.
I agree with you. I think (know) that i used the Helmsman in an inappropriate way.
I would put it in a category with a wipe on oil/varnish.
It is very soft.
I'm still trying to find a clear coat for my project.
It is very confusing trying to sort through all the paints, paint films, finishes.
The industry doesn't help very much at all.
I contacted Hydracote and they said they didn't have anything for my application.
Great. Now I have another can of paint sitting on a shelf.
I've been on this for a week.
I think companies could do a much better job helping people source products.
I think my suppliers are important to my jobs. I need the right materials in my hands to the best job I can.
I think that has been lost, for the most part, in our business culture.
"There are three kinds of men: The one that learns by reading, the few who learn by observation and the rest of them have to pee on the electric fence for themselves."Will Rogers
Edited 8/5/2009 12:23 pm by popawheelie
Really?
I would think Polyshield would be perfectly fine. Did you talk with Eric Kasner?
Any way, contact THIS guy...he'll set ya straight.
Michael Dresdner
A wood finishing author and expert offers finishing consulting services, books and videos.www.michaeldresdner.com/ - Cached - SimilarSpheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations
"If Brains was lard, you couldn't grease much of a pan"Jed Clampitt
View Image
I talked to Erick. It seemed like he was in a hurry and was a bit short with me.
Granted, I'm not the brightest bulb in the bunch, but i had some questions.
In the last email he said his finishes were for wood and I should go to a auto finish place.
I'm getting ready to do just that. But I want to brush on the finish so I'm getting ready for the rolling eyes from them.
I also want a satin top coat. You think the auto paint place will have satin top coat? I don't think so.
I don't want to spray. I'm not set up for it.
There's a lot of suppliers ready to sell me stuff, but few that will get the right product in my hands.
I have sprayed auto paint before. Acrylic enamel if I remember right. I did a color coat and a top coat. "There are three kinds of men: The one that learns by reading, the few who learn by observation and the rest of them have to pee on the electric fence for themselves."Will Rogers
go to and with an industrial coatings supplier rather automotive...
PPG comes to mind...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
"Some days it's just not worth chewing through the restraints"
I just found this stuff doing a google search.
http://www.permalac.com/?gclid=CK3i6KebjZwCFRJxxwod415wYw
Here is a guy using it for iron work.
http://www.permalac.com/casestudyDecorative.asp
Stop me before I order it if you think it is BOOOgus.
"There are three kinds of men: The one that learns by reading, the few who learn by observation and the rest of them have to pee on the electric fence for themselves."Will Rogers
you trying to give frenchy an orgasim????
Find a PPG Industrial Coatings outlet someplace up there...
they'll set ya on the right road...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
"Some days it's just not worth chewing through the restraints"
I thought that your door was mahogany wood)? It's metal? I'm so confused!
When I was looking for a clear coat for my sculpture, someone at BT told me that certain outdoor enamels, the tintable bases, were clear. Had to get the right one. I asked at a paint store and they seemed to think I was more or less crazy, but whoever wrote it here insisted there is a clear enamel base. I forgot the number of it. That may be worth a try.
i think I highjacked the thread. I get caught up in what I'm doing."There are three kinds of men: The one that learns by reading, the few who learn by observation and the rest of them have to pee on the electric fence for themselves."Will Rogers
Aha, I see that you aren't the OP. O-Tay! If you want to clearcoat metal, wouldn't a spray can of lacquer work? Deft also makes brush-on lacquer, but I think it's for wood.
I think i found it. The http://www.permalac.com/?gclid=CK3i6KebjZwCFRJxxwod415wYw
I don't see a problem with it, do you?"There are three kinds of men: The one that learns by reading, the few who learn by observation and the rest of them have to pee on the electric fence for themselves."Will Rogers
Sounds good to me--worth a try, I'd think.
I'm not sure about what paints really are. What I mean is this.
Enamels used to be all made with oils or solvents.
But if an enamel is acrylic enamel it is synthetic at that point and really no longer a true enamel.
The same thing for the Permalac. If it is an exterior lacquer is it just a lacquer in name only?
Do the manufacturers use these old names just so consumers feel confident in the product?
It can be very confusing. Michael Dresdner answered my email with this term.
"exterior acrylic lacquer" If it is exterior and acrylic I'm not sure if it technically still a lacquer.
Once it is synthetic it is a whole different ball game.
Does this make sense? I would like to read a short description ( in plain language) of old paints and the new ones. "There are three kinds of men: The one that learns by reading, the few who learn by observation and the rest of them have to pee on the electric fence for themselves."Will Rogers
Yeah, what you said does make sense. You are right--hard to figure what anything is any more. I had heard once that enamel and (was it varnish? Lacquer--not sure any more) varnish (I think) were the same except that enamel had pigment in it. Made sense at the time.
Just be glad you aren't trying to follow some of the discussions in tha Tavern--I ran screaming from the place just moments ago--Ithink my hair is still smouldering! Talk about "What is Truth?" Yipes!
Two and a half suggestions:
1. Go to a marine paint supplier and get some real marine varnish. It should last you longer, at least a couple or possibly three years, which is about all you can expect under those sun conditions. Minwax makes very good penetrating oil stains for furniture finishing, but that's about it. They used to sell a real spar varnish many years ago, but the poly-U products they sell now aren't the same thing, and they aren't top drawer.
--or--
1.5--Re-finish the door with the Sikkens Cetol 1 + 23 system. The topcoat (Cetol 23) is a soft-film, anti-checking varnish with very high UV resistance; it should last longer than almost anything else.
2. Build a small portico roof over that doorway to shade it. Direct sun on any film finish is very hard on it; owners of wooden boats sailing in the tropics are resigned to re-doing the brightwork on an annual basis.
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not brought
low by this? For thine evil pales before that which
foolish men call Justice....
Will look into Sikkens. Thanks
One more thought. (In addition to the most excellent responses ). I'm not sure if this is still the case, but as recently as a year or two ago I got some mahog filler that I used pre varnish. I used to use Petit filler, but that might not be available anymore. the idea is to use this to fill the hollow tubes present in certain types of mahog. You overcoat the wood, then wipe it off across the grain. It comes in several shades. From my understanding, it helps the finish coat go on evenly, saving time and effort in the long run.Guys, correct me if that's not the current best practice.(I love the sparkle of a nice mahog.!)Jake Gulick
[email protected]
CarriageHouse Design
Black Rock, CT
Since the longevity of the Epiphanes is dependent upon it's buildup or thickness a smooth surface on some open grain Mahogany precludes the use of a filler. The finish itself should never be used as a filler substitute which would cause a textured surface much akin to an orange peel. If the wood is to be unstained Crystal-Lac is a good filler choice since it dries totally clear.
Exactly what Dinosaur said. Exactly. That there's advice right on the money.
Paul
What dinosaur said, part 3. Best defense for a wood door starts with protection with some type of roof. In the climate where I've practiced any surface films will fail sooner than later otherwise.
This is what I did for my front door I recently finished.
2 coats Smith CPES Epoxy followed by 4 coats Epiphanes High Gloss Varnish followed by 3 coats Epiphanes Flat Varnish. Fine Woodworking did an article a few issues ago and this system faired the best out of all they tested. Minwax Helmsman is a dud finish, looks great for a few months and then quickly deteriorates.
Ditto what Ted says. Epiphanes consistently wins varnish tests in a variety of boating mags. Sun is the enemy. Epiphanes has UV inhibitors, but it still won't last forever; nothing clear will. The clear finish lets the uv through and breaks the bond between the finish and the wood. An annual re-coat will help.
The best marine varnish you can get, which in my opinion is Epifanes - http://www.epifanes.com/home.htm
Gary W
gwwoodworking.com
We used a product from Smith & Co (2 part epoxy) they were douglas fir doors in so. cal. full sun . 5 years and looks as good as when it was put on ( nothing has been done to them).