Hello,
We have a 20-year old flat roof that needs to be replaced. We got an estimate from the Duro-Last conractor and he wants $20K to do the job. Another non-DuroLast contractor will do a conventional flat roof for half that.
My question is this. Can anyone recommend something comparable to the Duro-Last method which I can do myself? The roof is about 2400 square-feet in area. I’ve done shingling before, and it appears that flat roofs are easier to do, but you have to pay attention to the details else you’ll end up with a leaking roof agian.
Part of our problem is that the original design of the home called for parapet vents which are about 4-inches above the roof line and it seems that wind blown rain can get into these vents. I will eliminate these vents and replace these with the usual vents placed in the center of each living area.
All comments and suggestions will be greatly appreciated.
Phillip
Replies
More info please.
What type of roof exists? Parapets on all sides, how many scuppers, etc? Also, pricing will be regionally affected, so we probably can't help that much, but the more info, the better.
"Let's go to Memphis in the meantime, baby" - John Hiatt.
http://grantlogan.net/
seeyou,We have a roof which is made of the same asphalt material that asphalt shingles are made of. In some areas of the roof there is gravel as well. I have never understood how the gravel is supposed to benefit the roof. IMO, all it does is trap dirt and make it difficult to locate cracks which can be repaired if found.Our home has a great interior design. This translates into the Rocky Horror Show for the resulting roof. I have photos on the way and will post them when I receive them (the home with the problem roof is in New Mexico otherwise I would have the images posted by now). The roof does have parapets on all sides. Some are taller than others, but all have these strange vents, which as I said earlier, make it very easy for water to make its way in if the wind blows hard enough. And, the wind always blows where the house is.As far as scuppers are concerned, these are located about every 10 feet or so about the perimeter of the roof. Some appear to not to be so well weather proofed.I appreciate your comments.
The purpose of the gravel is essentially the same as the ceramic chips on the surface of shingles or roll roofing. If just asphalt were the whole of th eroof material, it would only last a few years. The UV from the sun would dry and crack it. Rain would erode it. You'd be up there every couple of years painting it or re-coating it.I have not commented yet, pending photos. I am not familiar with the brand name or product type by name that you mentioned. But considering the location and the description you just gave, I think it is simply roll roofing, prone to leak anytime after five years. A good BUR gravel roof, if properly laid up, is far the better roof. A mix of the two raises questions in my mind.So I await photos to see what we are talking about.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Piffin,Thanks for the comments on the gravel. I never see gravel used in Chicago where we now live. This is what made me wonder about the gravel which is used so often in New Mexico. If I had to have gravel, I would use white pea gravel which would reflect some of the heat which is so prevalent in New Mexico. Seems to me that this would cool the house down a degree or two. I do have to agree with you that the UV does wreak the devil on everything it beats on. One contractor tried to talk us into a foam roof. This is a high maintenance roof which does have to be painted every 5-years or so. The town where the house is in also had a severe hail storm which destroyed many automobile roofs, sky lights in homes, clerestory windows, and many foam roofs. I about through the contractor off the roof when he suggested a foam roof. Just yesterday a neighbor down there thought that birds were eating his foam roof and he'll never have another one again. He's going back to a non-foam roof. Things were so bad down there a few weeks ago, that it was impossible to buy any sky lights in Las Cruces or even El Paso. They had all been bought to replace the damaged ones from the hail storm.Anyway, I will post the photos as soon as I get them.
Sounds like modified bitumen or possibly roll roof (which would be insanity to install in an app like this). The gravel keeps the UV rays from breaking down the roof material. The colored part of asphalt shingles is an aggregate and it's main function is to protect the asphalt binder. The latex roof system that Forrest has suggested is probably a good option (I'm not familiar with that particular brand). But, I think he has mostly used it over new substrate (Correct me if I'm wrong, Forrest) in situations such as porches. You've got lots of flashing details and the potential for serious ponding if a scupper gets clogged. Also, no matter what the sales info says, installing any kind of roof system over an exisitng, leaky, possibly poorly designed and executed is risky at best. Get us some pics if possible and we can help more.
"Let's go to Memphis in the meantime, baby" - John Hiatt.
http://grantlogan.net/
"roll roof (which would be insanity to install in an app like this)."very common in NM on Adobes
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
PhillipB
It's often said that a flat roof is designed to leak.. sooner or later it will and when it does it won't be pretty..'
Masybe you just have to have a flat roof there but seriously look at other otptions and you might find it's cheaper to put a pitch to the roof than to cover it well enough to withstand being flat..
that saying comes from those who don't know what they are talking about
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Piffan,
My father spent the better part of a decade selling roof rpair to factories and businesses with flat roofs.. He made a very comfortable living doing that. He did state of the art roof sealing and at best they'd get a little more than a decade out of state or the art sealed roofs before the leaks started..
It's true that things may have improved in the last few decades but even today I sell a fair number of forklifts to roofing contractors who do nothing but repair commercial roofs.. If in the 10th largest city in the country there was only one who did it and he was like the Maytag repairman I'd say that you know something I don't. However there are many here in the Mpls./St. Paul area. and they are all busy as beavers right now.. you do the math..
That's part of the problem. Guys selling product without knowing roofing.
Hate to disparage your father but I have not ever known of a "roof sealant" State of art or otherwise that was worth the trouble to put on a roof. They make more work for real roofers without doing the customer much good. Read the specs from the BUR roof manufacturers. See any mention of state of the aart roof sealants? No.
There are ways to lay up a good roof and to maintain it. In ten years with a good BUR roofing company, you father would have learned some of themThe problem is when the low bidder installs a roof and the owner fails to maintain it, then the blame is cast on the crazy designer who had a flat roof built in the first place.I sold my BUR roofs with a service/inspection contract. Catching any problem and dealing with it immediately is the key to longevity with these things. Slapping on a coat of sealant is not appropriate. It just gums things up and makes a mess.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
PIffan'
I'm sorry but you assumed and you assumed wrong.. no my father didn't sell one of those wonder "sealants" He sold the complete reroofing job. tear off, repair rot, new membrain, and reballast.
The guys I now sell my forklifts don't sell many "sealant" jobs either. Don't need a forklift to do that..
Then go back and read what you wrote. I did not assume. You are the one who used words to desribe what he sold and this post says something entirely different from what you said earlier.and if he did total jobs but could not do one to last more than ten yeaars, he was lacking in his installation quality. That's all there is too it.I can understand you wanting to defend dear old Dad, but I have years and acres of installations behind me, and had all the volumns of specs from GAF, JM, and a couple others I was certified for. If you are certified, do it right, you can sell manufacturers warrantee too on those alrge commercial jobs. But there are ten so-so roofers and twenty hacks for every one who gets certified.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Piffan,
We do agree that there are twenty hacks and 10 so-so roofers for every decent one..
But in my whole life I've never ever met anbody who admitted that they were anything but the one good one.. May I include you in that catagory. (sorry, that was a cheap shot and I don't mean it)
I admit that technology has changed in the decades since Dad was alive.. you'd need to go all the way back into the 50's to compare roofing techinques. 20 years might be common now, I don't know.
He used to sell paint jobs on water towers as well.. back then 5 years and they'd call you up to get their refund on the 10 year warrantee that was included.. He'd go out there and admit that the paint wasn't holding up and offer to repair it for 1/2 of the cost since 1/2 of the time had gone by.. Still was a profitable job and kept the crews busy. Labor wasn't warranteed so those costs remained the same but the cost of the paint was 1/2 of the original.
Look at the warrantee on your tires for examples today or get one of those lifetime brake jobs.. 5 year battery's and 40/50 year roofs.
I used to sell Gehl forklifts with a 5 year warrattee. read the fine print and you will discover that the five years was only for defects in workmanship on the welded assembly. another words as long as you used the equipment and didn't abuse it they would fix any broken frame.
Lull had a similar warrantee, only they got caught. In 1995 they introduced a new model and the frame broke and boom bent.. They spent millions fixing them as long as you brought it to their attention within the two years otherwise you spent $18,000 buying a new boom assembly and a few hundred welding up the cracked frame..
Cat had a similar problem with the carriage.. the TH63 used to bend the pin holding the carriage on and that would cause it to auger out and worst case break off. The $18.00 pin was covered but the resulting $1800.00 damage wasn't.
In short the best warranttee is the one never used..
frenchy,I really appreciate your comments about considering a pitched roof, and believe me, that was my first thought, but after getting the estimate from an architect friend, the cost would be prohibitive. This is due - as I explained to seeyou above - to the way the house was designed. I wish I had the photos to show you, but I do not at this time. I do hope to have them soon. The house is in New Mexico and we live in Chicago. Life!Thanks for your comments and suggestions.
I am originally from NM, and I am curious about where this house might be located.
Can you share that info?_______________________________________________________________
"Don't rush me, sonny. You rush a miracle man, you get rotten miracles" -Miracle Max
Sure. Las Cruces, New Mexico. It's about 45-min from El Paso - the armpit of the world as my old Chevron pal's were fond of saying. I was born in Santa Fe. I had to move so the movie stars could have a place to live.What part of NM were you from?
I know Las Cruces well, my older son went to NM State, and I have relatives there.
I was born in Albuquerque but grew up in the northern mountains. I have built homes in and around Taos, Angel Fire, and Red River.
Several movie star types around Taos, too.
You can have El Paso._______________________________________________________________
"Don't rush me, sonny. You rush a miracle man, you get rotten miracles" -Miracle Max
Heck,Nope, you can have El Paso. I don't want anything to do with it. I made good money working for Chevron for many years, but I hate to even fly into the airport there.I'm a NMSU grad myself. Good school.I miss Santa Fe, but the people are 40-degrees past weird for my tastes. Very few natives there anymore, not counting the Pueblo and Rez Indians. We may end up in Taos in a few years. My 'financial advisor' likes it there. Once she realizes just how far you have to drive to a real airport - Denver or ABQ - she may change her mind.I'm a photographer and find it much easier to make a living in the Chicago area than in NM. Time will tell where we end up.Take care. Oh, BTW, nice picture. Ha!
It's very nice to make your acquaintance.
I went to UNM myself, but was smarter when it was time for my son to go. I really like the school, and the campus...but on the whole, too hot for me.
I know what you mean about Santa Fe, 'the city different'. I have friends there who say the same thing.
Taos is going the way of Santa Fe, I fear, but it is several years behind. And it is cut off, as is most of NM. Beautiful, though, and fodder for many a photographer.
I have been waiting to see the pics of your roof before advising, but so far I suggest an elastomeric coating as has been mentioned; the brand I am familiar with is 'Rapid Roof' by Conklin.
It would require a strip down to deck, however.
Luck._______________________________________________________________
"Don't rush me, sonny. You rush a miracle man, you get rotten miracles" -Miracle Max
Nice to meet you as well.I hope to have the photos tomorrow. An architect friend of ours took some photos while we were there in September. I thought that I took some photos of the roof before we left in '03, but if I did, I cannot find them.I am tossing in some exterior images for your perusal that I took back in '04. From these it should be easy to see that this home is not a candidate for a pitched roof. I want to strip it down to the PW deck, so this is not a deterrent to me.I will post the roof images as soon as I get them.Take care.
Edited 10/25/2006 12:00 am by PhillipB
Seal-O-Flex! Do it yourself with a minimum of tools! PM me! It's great! The link below shows how to do it:
http://forums.taunton.com/tp-breaktime/messages?msg=73188.31
Forrest - Seal-O-Flex pimp
Forrest,All I have to say is 'Yeah!!'Man, I took a look at the link you so kindly provided and that is what I need to have.Thank you, sir, very much.Phillip
Phillip,
In my opinion, there is nothing easier about a flat roof compared to shingles. Shingles are designed to shed water, whereas a low-slope ("flat") roof needs to be water-proof to keep water out of the system.
Regarding Duro-Last, they are a proprietary mfg. of a single-ply, PVC membrane. They mfg. the membrane, with all of the penetration flashings, and then deliver and install the membrane, using their technicians.
Low slope roof systems available to the general public can be fairly limited. Many membrane mfg's want to control who installs their product. If you have never installed a low slope roofing system, this may not be the project for you to learn on. As you stated, "you have to pay attention to the details else you'll end up with a leaking roof agian".
Having said that, EPDM (rubber) might be an option for you to install. Just remember, the devil is in the details.
Much advice has been given here about "flat roofs" being undesirable or prone to failure, however if they are executed properly, they can outlast virtually any shingled roof.
If you provide some more information, such as slope, existing type of system and perhaps a photo or two, you will get better responses.
vintage1,Thanks for the great comments and very knowledgeable advice.Cutting right to the chase, you're no doubt correct in that a flat roof has to be water-proof as opposed to just be able to shed water as a pitched roof does. This was what I meant by the 'details'.Changing gears for a second, I have to say that the area that this house is in - Las Cruces, New Mexico - received 39-inches of rain as of about 3 weeks ago, compared to the usual annual rainfall of 8-inches. And it rained again today. Point being that all of this abnormal rainfall has laid bare all of the poor workmanship that has gone into many of the flat roof homes in this area. Pueblo styled homes are what makes that part of the US of A so unique. And, all pueblo styled structures have flat roofs with very little slop to them. Scuppers in that part of the country are called 'canales' and these are a constant source of agony because they invariably are guaranteed to leak because of poor workmanship. We have to patch ours on every 6-month visit.I apologize for not having any photos of this roof. Some will be sent in the very near future. I would have to say that the slope is as close to zero as can be. If it does have any slope, it may be in the 5-degree area or thereabouts. Not much. I can tell where the water is pooling up by the finer grit pockets which never make it out the scuppers/canales.I'm hoping against hope (perhaps) that if the rain continues we may have to have it done by a contractor. My biggest concern is that if they can't do a good job in good weather, what can I expect at this time of year? I will also have to fly back to be sure they do a good job. So, I'm praying that the weather will let up and I can hold out until spring then go back and do it myself. The interior damage is done and many large plastic trays/buckets are in place and the place is monitored by security whom have done a good job thus far.I liked the info that McDesign or Forrest provided. It was call Seal-O-Flex and it appears to be what I need.I appreciate all of your comments and suggestions. I will post all of the photos once I get them.Regards,
Phillip
Gentlemen,
Here are the images as promised.
I'll upload them and then all of you can make your assessments.
They all clearly show the ridiculous vents which I believe are the cause of most if not all the water that gets into the house. In addition, you can see what roofing material is on the roof. The roof images which lack gravel are those areas which have been previously re-roofed. The worker's simply dumped the gravel into the backyard rather than onto the drive where it would have been more useful. This took place before my time, else they would have done what they were supposed to have done in the first place.
The "Roof" image shows the roof sloping upwards towards the top of the clerestory window(s) shown in the "Window" image. The area above the window is the highest point of the roof area. Unfortuately, I do not have an image which would have shown this much clearer. There are three (3) clerestory windows and all have to be replaced prior to the roof replacement. All have water between the panes. Apparently the inert gas has long since escaped. We have several windows that will need to be replaced.
Thanks for all your help and suggestions.
Phillip
That's not a roof for someone to do who isn't well versed in both the materials being used and the techniques required to make that water tight.
There are some fairly tricky spots there which will require excellent skills for a first class job.
Maybe you need a consultant to write specs for 3 or 4 bidders to bid on-apples to apples that way.
This could well be why this roof has been plagued with leaking for years. The roof above the master bedroom has been replaced three (3) times and it still leaks.Could you be a bit more specif about the "tricky" parts of the roof you are referring to?Again, I believe that the major problem is the parapet vents which will be replaced with conventional roof vents. The lathe or what ever the proper terms is for the metal strip that holds the roof material to the parapet walls has screws which can leak water as well. They should have been caulked over for the git-go.As to your comment about a consultant, we are working with an architect who already got us two quotes - $20K for Duro-Last and $10k for a regular roof. We will not go with a regular roof, and the $20k is a bit stiff. That is the reason I began this thread.I appreciate your comments
Edited 10/26/2006 4:31 pm by PhillipB
Wow.You've got some work to do. You already know what you have to do with those vents.
Would be nice to have bigger scuppers, but that would be difficult to do now, unless it's possible to make the vents into scuppers?
The newer part is modified bitumen, will not handle ponding.
I still suggest elastomeric, but perhaps those here with more roofing experience will be along to advise you._______________________________________________________________
Under penalty of law this tagline to be removed only by consumer
Heck,Nice to hear from you again. Yeah, tell me about the work.As to your comment about converting the existing parapet vents to scuppers: If you take a look at image "Soledad Canyon Front View" (from the first set of images), and look just to the right of the tall evergreen tree, you will see a section of the upper wall which protrudes out over a window. Behind that parapet wall is a parapet vent which has leaked down into that room and the drywall above that window is just sagging down because it has been soaked with water. If you look at one of todays images, "SW Side", that is the parapet vent. You can see the tall evergreen behind it. So, point being, that if would not simple to convert the parapet vents into scuppers because of the design of the house.Now, I'm not trying to sound like I know what I'm talking about, but I feel that with the parapet vents as low as they are (in some areas), and as numerous as they are, if they were eliminated altogether, we could possibly get through the winter without any major damage. Little or no rain would help as well.As to the ponding, photos "Scupper" and "Vent & Scupper" both show debris which has gathered due to the ponding of the water during a storm. IMO, this is due to the flatness of the roof. I can't believe that this roof was made so flat. Again, it could have been designed like this or else the construction crew just didn't care what they were doing. I do have the plans but they are in the house.This non-graveled area is the roof area over the master bedroom which has been replaced three times.Thanks for your comments.
Phillip,
Thanks for posting the photos of your roof.
FWIW, I will offer you my comments.
First, according to what I see in the photos, your roof is nowhere near flat. It appears to have sufficient slope to drain even the gully washers you reported earlier in the year. For example, a commercial warehouse roof that might be 100,000 Sq Ft. can be adequately drained with 1/4" per foot slope. Your roof appears to have more than that. This is good news, It allows several options for reroofing.
My assessment is that the existing roof is poorly detailed. From what I see in the pic's, Flashings are poorly terminated and their height is insufficient. I also see a lot of roof cement used as repair material. Typically, this is a short term fix. I only assume that the balance of the roof is less than optimum.
I am uncertain as to what the parapet vents do. I agree with eliminating them, but what are they venting? Why are they there in the first place?
In my opinion, this is not a project to undertake if you have never installed a low-slope roof before.
I know that people have recommended Seal O Flex, or other fiber reinforced elastomeric coatings as your solution, but I personally would not be comfortable with this on my entire roof.
I agree with another post who recommended hiring a roofing consultant. They are professionals who can help develop specifications to meet the design criteria for your project. If this is an avenue you want to pursue, you might Google RCI (roof consultants institute) to find one in your area.
I hope this helps. I have some background in low slope roofing, if you have additional questions, I would be happy to reply.
By the way, what is the existing roof deck?
vintage1,"according to what I see in the photos, your roof is nowhere near flat. "
When you formed that opinion, you must have been looking at the "Roof" photograph. I need to explain. I wish I had a photo of this but I'll try my best.If you look at the "Window" photo you're seeing one of three clerestory windows. The section of the roof behind these clerestory windows slopes up from the actual flat part of the roof and rises over these clerestory windows. This raised section is actually an "L" by design. The clerestory windows are on the long side of the "L". The short section of the "L" has no window in it. The short side simply tapers back down to the horizontal or flat section of the roof. In other words, the roof slopes up to go over the clerestory windows. The interior ceiling parallels the roof. I hope this makes sense to you. I really wish I had a photo that was taken from the roof, but I don't. I've attached another image which may help a little. If you look to the right of the tall evergreens in the "Clerestory Windows Header" photo, the highest horizontal section that you see is the same header that you see in the "Window" photo above the clerestory window. I hope this helps.I'll get this back to you so you can take another look. I do want to say that I was hoping to do this repair myself in the Spring, but from what most of you are saying, this is out of my league. I respect what each of you has to say and I mean that.Now, to embarrass myself further, I'm not sure what you mean by "the existing roof deck". If you're asking what's below the roofing material then I will say that I believe it is plywood (PW). That is the norm in this area. I had another home once in which the contractor used 3/8" PW for the decking. I can almost read through 3/8" PW. At that time, it was actually legal to use it. Does NM have good lobbyist's or what. I was outraged because the AC was on the roof and you had to be very careful where you walked. I used to laugh thinking that I needed a ladder to get up, but I may not need it to get down.
Hello again.From what I have seen in those photos, the vents are the very worst problem. Those were never intended to be used in this manner, then they were installed poorly and way too close to the roof surface, some right down on the roof.Also, you are right that the roof is poorly detailed and bad woirkmanshipo, the scuppers are way too samll. I would bet that they allow water to back up during a heavy downpour and then runs in the vents.The termination bars are also a poor choice and installed too low.EPDM is the right material and no matter what material is used, this roof haas to come off and the scuppers enlarged.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Piffin,Thank you, sir, for you comments.No one that has seen these "vents" has a clue as to why they were made that way. In my mind they are more like funnels inviting the water into the house. Stupid.And, yes, many are very close to the roof surface. Before we left there, I did cover up the low ones in an attempt to prevent rain from getting in. It was only a temporary fix until we can figure out what we are going to do. I really have no idea just how big scuppers are supposed to be, but you are not the first to make that comment. This roof appears to be exactly how a really bad roofing job should be done. Not to mention the great vent design. We have an architect friend who was baffled when he saw them for the first time. He had no idea why they were done that way.The termination bars are all very loose and the screws used are too short to do any good. IMO, the should all have been caulked over when they finished installing them. The Duro-Last contractor said he would use them only as insurance. He would actually take the Duro-Last membrane over the parapet walls which is much better than what we now have.I also agree that the old roof has to come off. The D-L contractor did not want to remove the old roof. I have a problem with that. I believe that it has to come off and be repaired properly once and for all. Hopefully, we can get by until Spring. The home is unoccupied so that's not a problem. As I've said earlier, we have pans and buckets about the interior which security folks keeping an eye on things.Thanks again for your comments.
>>>>>>>>>>Can anyone recommend something comparable to the Duro-Last method which I can do myself?
1) those vents must go. I don't like the size of the scuppers either. How proficient with sheet metal are you? Some of those flashing details would be better done with metal.
2) EPDM would be my 1st choice on this roof. TPO would be #2, but it requires some expensive equipment (seam welder) and has a little higher learning curve, but is similar to the durolast product.
3) Looks like the old roof needs tearing off. Was that included in either price?
4) If there's not enough slope, tapered insulation could be added to create more slope.
"Let's go to Memphis in the meantime, baby" - John Hiatt.
http://grantlogan.net/
Thanks for your comments.1) Yes, the vents MUST go. No question about that. As to the scuppers, I saw on many of them where the roofing material appeared to have been run up the side of the parapet wall and then the scupper opening simply cut out. I have had to go back over all of these with roofing cement/goop and fill in the void behind the roofing material to prevent water from going through this opening and into the house. Workmanship is very bad IMO on this roof. It's details like this - and the ridiculous vents - that are the major cause of our leaks.2) EPDM? TPO? You're going to have to give me a little help on this one.3) I do want to tear off the roof. The Duro-Last guy did not want to tear off the roof and it was not included in his $20K bid. With gravel under the Duro-Last, it seems to me that just walking on it would be enough to punch a hole in it and where would that leave us? I do believe that the conventional roof contractor would tear off the old roof. I WILL tear off the old roof because after all the water that has fallen down there, I want to take a look at the PW sheathing and see if any of it needs replacing. There are some places on the roof that "spring" when you walk over them. This is the time to make these repairs.4) I've never hear of tapered insulation, but I can well see how that would really benefit this roof.You've given me lots to chew on. Pleas get back to me on the EPDM. I'd rather not use what is probably a flamed seam welder if possible. Again, thanks for your help.
http://www.mulehide.com/
"Let's go to Memphis in the meantime, baby" - John Hiatt.
http://grantlogan.net/
Thank you, sir. Just what I needed.
I've used MuleHide once, when I couldn't get SOF in Arlington, VA. I had to go back with SOF 6 months later - the MuleHide wasn't resilient enough and wasn't fabric reinforced; it leaked at joints in the CDXdecking.
Forrest
As long as we're throwing stuff out there:
http://www.livingcolorspainting.com/roofsystem.html_______________________________________________________________
Under penalty of law this tagline to be removed only by consumer
Sorry McDesign, last message was meant for OP.
Just some other stuff I found that was kinda interesting:
http://www.unisa.edu.au/news/2006/090806.asp_______________________________________________________________
Under penalty of law this tagline to be removed only by consumer
You obviously didn't look at the link. It was to explain the difference between EPDM and TPO. That latex paint on coating is for carpenters, mechanics, homeowners, etc. Real roofers do real roofing. Just curious, how long a history do you have with latex roofs? I know of one that's 15 years old. It's been recoated twice in that time and still looks pretty good (I recoated it once), but it's sprung a leak or two over the years (flashing details).
"Let's go to Memphis in the meantime, baby" - John Hiatt.
http://grantlogan.net/
<Real roofers do real roofing>
Man, and I thought we were getting along so well! ;-)
I'm sitting under a 14-yr old SOF roof; shortly I'll go upstairs to shower under a 15-yr old SOF roof. Only one "roller recoat" on each.
SOF was developed by an Air Force contractor for metal hangers - what's HO about that?
Forrest - gonna go out in the shop and play cars - poopy on ya'll
Just yankin' your crank, dewd.>>>>>>>>>SOF was developed by an Air Force contractor for metal hangers - what's HO about that?Nothing.I think it's a great product for certain applications, but not for all. Unfortunately, people with less building sense than you or I have look at the ease of application and make messes. I often get called to clean them up. I have no doubt that you could make about any roof work with the stuff, but how many guys are like you? Enjoy the shower.
"Let's go to Memphis in the meantime, baby" - John Hiatt.
http://grantlogan.net/
What was said earlier about having a consuiltant or architect write specs was good advice.If all your archy did was review offerings by two different roofers proposing to do the work with a product and method that the roofer speced, that was an entirely different thing.What you do is have a person well qualified in roofing write up specifications for the kind of roof you want - let's say you want EPDM. the manufacturers reps can sometimes help you with this, tho it is less likely for a residential roof - so the spec sheet lists all the things that must be done to create a good roof with what sort of material installed according to this and that detail.Then you present it for bids to the interested roofing comnpanies. If your community is small, there are few choices, but in larger cities, you might attract several interested parties.
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Piffin,All we did was have or architect make the calls. One contractor wanted to do foam or a conventional roof. The other contractor only did commercial Duro-Last work but he was talked into coming over to look at our house. Our architect prefers and believes in the Duro-Last roof.The town the house is in is about 70K in population. Too small perhaps, to find the type of consultant that you are referring to. I will ask our architect about that. We're good friends and I don't have to worry about what I say, He does have our interests at heart. I will give him a call tomorrow about this.What you say about a qualified roofing consultant makes perfect sense. He knows roofing and can spec it out according to what we want. The selected roofer has to agree to the spec's else he doesn't get the work. It's all in the details. This is very good advice.Once again, thanks for providing very valuable information.Regards,
Phillip
I don't know the Dura-last product, but doing the parrapet wallls to the top would be the way I'd handle this roof too, with any product I am familiar with
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The D-L contractor said he would actually go over the parapet wall with the membrane but I'm not so sure how that would look from the outside. We haven't got that far yet, so we still have a lot to chat about.The D-L contactor made several other statements:
(1) He would guarantee the roof for 5-years. He said they had that much faith in the membrane material and their workmanship;(2) He said they were finding out that the price of a home with a D-L roof would actually go up in value. I thought to myself, sure, but first you have to overcome the $20K you just dropped for the roof;(3) He said that this roof would be maintenance free. Compared to a conventional roof, that may be true;(4) He said that because the membrane was pure white, it would also help to cool off the house. This would be very good since that part of the Southwest is so hot during the summer months.I know I'm sounding like a D-L dealer, but they do have a lot going for them. I'd rather be able to do this myself, but going on what most of you have said, this is a job for the pro's to do. I respect all your opinions and expertise which is why I began this thread to begin with.Regards.
It is definitely a pro job in most cases. You could probably do it with a helper and someone like CU or myself looking over your shoulder, but that could also be a frustrating experience for both parties.If you have a link to the DL info, I would try to discover what sort of product it is and searcch for equivalent ones.There can be some advantages to proprietary product lines limiting sales toi their own approved installers, but it does limit competition and drive prices up
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Piffin,"You could probably do it with a helper and someone like CU or myself looking over your shoulder, but that could also be a frustrating experience for both parties."Maybe. If I provide the beer and large umbrellas for each of you that should help. Oh, yeah, sorry, I forgot. Nice lawn chairs for each of you. Grin.In all seriousness, you're right. All the while that this has been going on a little voice keeps telling me that it's the vents that are causing all the problems and not the roof proper. Too bad we live in a different part of the country, because I could cover all those bloody vents up and find out. Of course, it probably wouldn't rain and I'd never know the truth.I don't know if you've read through all that I have posted, but the annual rainfall in that area is about 8-inches. This year they got 39-inches and that was as of about a month ago. And, it has rained heavily since then that I'm sure of. As to the D-L info, I do have the link to their site and the contractor did provide extensive brochures, statistics, etc. for us to mull over. D-L is proud of their product and all that it represents. He didn't blink an eye when he said they'd guarantee it for 5-years. The other rep said that three was far as he would go. So, with the D-L, we'll get a better guarantee, a super white reflective surface which will reflect the sun and keep the house cooler. They will eliminate all those stupid parapet vents and replace them with some very nice roof vents which are proprietary to D-L. What I didn't like was the fact that they would not tear off the old roof and start fresh. They will simply place a blanket or some kind of pad under the D-L membrane. He said this would prevent the gravel from punching a hole in the membrane even though he said punching a hole in it was very hard to do. Then he went on to tell me the following story. Now, you need to be sitting down for this. Ready? He said that after Katrina, there was some commercial building down there which had its entire D-L roof blown off. After they repaired/rebuilt this building, they simply cherry-picked the D-L roof up and put it back on the building. Ok! You can get up off the floor. He said that he could back that story up with names, addresses, phone numbers, etc. I didn't know what to say. Neither did Clarke, our architect. So, I'm thinkin', when we move, we can just take the roof with us. Let the new owner's get their own. What d'ya think? Grin.Again, your correct about proprietary products. They have no competition. In our case D-L does only commercial buildings. Clarke knows him personally from past projects and had enough pull to talk him into doing a residential job.Enough said. Take care.
I lived near Taos once upon a time in another lifestyle, so I know about the rainfall dsituation. Very dry climate but whaat does fall happens in about three or four weather events a year!The more I read, the more I like youNow let's get somme duct tape over those vents...LOL
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Hey, I got a duct tape story for you.We refurbed our bungalow here in Chicago after we moved in. After I did all the electrical, I started on the plumbing. Down in the basement, there were two stand pipes and one of them had duct tape on them over about 4-inches of pipe. This is the old leaded-in pipe. Anyway, I rip it off and hearly crap ... there's absolutely NOTHING behind the duct tape 'cept a big dark nasty lookin' hole. The pipe was completely rotted away and the previous owner (probably his wife, 'cause I heard he was full of go-gas. Wouldn't even cut the grass, what the neighbors said. They also said she used tweezers to pull weeds. Swear to God, that's what I was told. Several times.). Anyway, I ripped the pipe out and repalced it with a nice heavy-duty card-board tube that I got at Big Lots. Good stuff, man. Can't beat the price either. Oh, I almost forgot. Then I wrapped the whole thing with a whole roll of - you guessed it - Duct Tape. Talk about DIY. I'm da man! LOL, myselfNo, I used good ol' PVC. Took all of 4 hours. From what I've seen in this area, if folks can get by with doing nothin', they'll try to do it with less. I swear. Take care.
On the parapet walls, if appearnce is an issue, they can be capped with a sheet metal flashing that is made to fit
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>>>>>>>>>>>Our architect prefers and believes in the Duro-Last roof.Last year I had an architect spec a proprietary product similar to Duro-last. There was only one dealer in the area. There were many comperable products, but he insisted on what he'd spec'd which meant I had to sub the proprietary contractor who's bid was 60% more plus my markup. I asked him to change his specs or deduct the difference from his fee (he also had some insane flashing details - I asked him to warrant them himself or let me do it in a fashion that I could warrant). He backed off his specs and the homeowner got a good roof for a reasonable price. The moral of this story: Most architects don't know everything about everything and most good architects consult with experts in whatever field to provide their customer with the best advice they can give.
"Let's go to Memphis in the meantime, baby" - John Hiatt.
http://grantlogan.net/
seeyou,I hear you. This architect did ask both contractors some tough questions which I hadn't thought of, but I really don't know much about his roofing expertise. I do know he designs buildings, large ones at that, but what he really knows about roofing is not something we've actually chatted about. I've done several shingling jobs on sloped roofs: one on a 1K-square foot addition to a home I owned, and a complete roof on a home I sold. But, no flat roof experience other than patching them up as necessary. My experience is very limited, but I'll say this: I had to live in each of those houses and neither leaked.Guys who say or even think they know everything should be avoided at all cost. We don't need to go there, but yes, I agree that architects should consult with the pro's in their respective fields to provide their customers with the best advice. Can't make a good decision without good advice.Off topic, but is that your website, "grantlogan.net"? Nice site.Take care.
Great point. All the flat commercial roofs I bid on had specs thaat were generally taken per se from one of the spec books put out by major manufaturers like GAF citing their product but with the aded phrase " or equivalent" leaving it to the bidder to demonstrate the equivalency of the product they offer, to avoid the impropriety of eliminating competition. It was not hard to demonstrate equivalency withing the same genre of product with deviating from the name brand speced.
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