I’ve been laying slate in my solarium and entry areas. This isn’t my first rodeo, but with this rustic surface i thought i could save myself some cleanup by trying a grout bag. I mixed grout, stuffed it in the bag and…nothing. I cut a larger hole…nothing. I couldn’t squeeze hard enough to force any poop out the nozzle, so i dumped it all back in the bucket and returned to my usual smear-and-stomp method.
I’ve NOW read all the search items returned here re “grout bag” and the upshot seems to be that a much more liquid mix is need for using a grout bag than i’m used to mixing. I learned in my early days that a stiffer mix (mine doesn’t slump at all) is best for grouting bec it doesn’t shrink/crack as much when curing, which i’ve previously used with good results.
So…i’m using Mapei’s Keracolor, modified, sanded grout. Is there any consensus (stop laughing) on whether i could have thinned the stuff down to run through a grout bag *without* sacrificing stability? If stiffer is better, i’ll continue spending the time required to scrub it off the slate with my sponge after packing it in with a float, but i wondered if the newer, polymer-modified grouts are perhaps stronger and therefore needn’t be mixed as stiff, so i could use the grout bag? I don’t want to make the nozzle hole any larger, as it wouldn’t fit the joints anymore.
I spent three hours sponging only 56 sf, so i’m fishing here for an easier-but-just-as-good way, cuz i’ve got more slate to lay.
Replies
Here in sunny NM we usually seal the stone first, then grout. The stone we use is usually flagstone, mostly colo. red. Just pack it in there with a squeegee and wipe up the excess. It's similar to tile work after that. The sealer keeps the grout from penetrating the pores of the stone. Once that grout gets into the stone its really hard to get it out. so seal them up first.
I did two coats of sealer first, but there are just lots of crannies that had to be scrubbed, and even squishing it with the float seems to have scratched the sealer coats. Before it dried, i could see darker scratch marks along the seams where i pushed hard on the float. The color is even now it's dry, but i haven't done the final sealing yet, so i'm hoping the scratches don't show up again.
I have just grouted and sealed three natual slate hearths,
the slate peices were 24"x 72" with 24"x24" shoulders. The
grout has to be a little wetter if you use a grout bag which
is what I use for little jobs anyway,if I have a lot of grouting
to do. I use my Quickpoint mortar gun for vertical surfaces
and the quickpoint floor grouter for horizontal surfaces, cuts
the grouting time in half, esp. on brick and flagstone walks.If
its clean that last coat of sealer will hide a multitude of sins.
I can't justify the Quickpoint gun at $215 for the amount of grouting i do, but it gave me a thought...i recently obtained a large caulking gun (thx, ponytl!) that i might rig to take a serving of grout...hmmm, sounds promising...
Could I interest you in one of these? There are still a few days until Christmas...
http://www.contractorsdirect.com/Raimondi-Rosina-Electric-Sponge-Machine;jsessionid=ac112b1f1f439cd07f4cad1c406d8c17e11b90462964.e3eTaxiNaN0Te3aLa3qKbxiTaO1ynknvrkLOlQzNp65In0?sc=8&category=58
I'm assuming there is a vertical adaptor?
I wouldn't use a grout bag on that, personally. I've used grout bags on tile when it's vertical tile in funny shapes, like chair rail tile, and it works well there. It's not very fast though, and you'll often get little bits of grout on either side of the gap. I've also used bags for mortar on stonework- it's the bee's knees there.
If you were going to use it on a big area, you might try adding water reducer when you mix the grout. It works on concrete to make the mud more workable with less water, so I imagine it would do the same with grout.
When bagging mortar, we would often richen the mortar with portland-cement to make it flow smoother.
zak
"When we build, let us think that we build forever. Let it not be for present delight nor for present use alone." --John Ruskin
"so it goes"
when we tuck point with a bag we richen it with lime and dishwashing liquid...
p
I read one of your old posts about the lime enrichment (for parging, IIRC), but are you channeling Jeff Buck about the dishwashing liquid for DW mud? <G>I think i found a use for that mondo caulking gun you gave away at Memphest!
pretty sure it was me who first mentioned dw liquid for drywall mud also... I learned a long time ago... if you keep it lubed it lasts forever and you get very little wear & tear... run or rub it dry and it might be the last time you get to use it.... I was told if you could make something self lubricating it'd never wearout...
as a side note i picked up the 30gal of boiled linseed oil on your advice...
p
Are you going to mix it with the cheap poly like i recommended, too? It builds a lot faster that way. BLO alone will still allow dirt to work in and take longer to dry, but you can do a pretty good job of sealing if you work the mixture into the floor with one of the dozen buffers you must have lying about. I've gone to using the 90-minute DW setting compound for everything except the last coat (in my case, all perfectionism and no talent, that could run into the double digits), but i'll try adding the DW liquid on the final approach for the present job i'm doing.
All these DW's got me fluster cucked. So Ibuy a DW for the DW to have a DW that needs DW and she gets pissed when I jabber about a DW that I intend to buy so I can make the DW easier on the DW and I mention SOAP, and the hatchett comes out.
Thanks, I love you too. ( OUCH)..dammit,,The DW just ...awe, never mind.
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
I have irriatable Vowel syndrome.
The soap's to wash yer mind out wit...
I have to check my wit at the door these days, or they wash my posts out wit soap..I got a boo boo on my record for being rude, crude and socially unacceptable..and to think, I can't even spell unacceptable...the freaking bastids have no right I tell ya, the morons that run this sh...whoooops.
Hey no pickin on ya, but why not add that left side cut slate to the middle and equal both sides? Or none of my business, or that was wha ya wanted to do to save cuttin?
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
I have irriatable Vowel syndrome.
I was wondering if anyone would comment on the cutting. <G>The answer is that the floor will eventually extend toward the entryway/vestibule (still in DW phase), where the floor gets wider so that it will be full five tiles across...unless i change my mind yet again. I need to get four-dozen amaryllis bulbs back in the solarium before they get much leggier, so i'm finishing that first area completely as soon as i can. Fitting it around ferals and Frank slows things down, but i have a day to myself tomorrow to start running trim....yay!
Does the reducer change the color of the grout? What i have left to finish is contiguous with the last batch of slate, so i guess i'd follow the same procedure i already did. I also have some kitchen backsplash (glazed 12", very little texture) where i wanted to use the bag, where a color match won't matter, so i'll try using reducer in that, for sure. I always like to try new techniques and materials.
What a baby..just trowel the dam mud on and be done with it...lol.
Be well and have a nice new year
Namaste'
andy aka avi yama dass : )~
Meaning of Namaste':
I honor the place in you
in which the entire Universe dwells,
I honor the place in you
which is of Love, of Truth, of Light and of Peace,
When you are in that place in you,
and I am in that place in me,
we are One.
HAPPY HOLIDAYS:)http://http://www.woodstockanddeadseascrolls.net/files/track09c.mp3<
http://WWW.CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
Very nice! I'm looking through Ian's old website (on disc now) for ideas for the threshholds between the hardwood in the living room and the slate to the entryway and the tile in the kitchen. I haven't decided whether to go with wood or slate/tile for the parquet threshholds, but i like the simplicity of cutting slates into different shapes to kick it up a notch. What did you do for the threshholds from the hallway to the rooms?Now...not to be too critical, but your slates look like they have traces of the lighter grout in the lee of some of the irregularities. That sort of detail makes me crazy, and a crazed Splinter is something no one should have to endure, especially not 24/7. So i have these toothbrushes that i previously declined to mention in my sponging/cleaning regimen... I visited your website again; you've added a lot more pix since you first announced it and i first visited. <applause> And Ian thought MY ten-coat method of refinishing a wood floor was above-and-beyond!!! The old boy would certainly approve of your efforts, and that's the very nicest thing i could say to you. <bow>
Thanks : )
The grout was still drying in those pictures so it didn't look even like it does now was all. I also came back and scrubbed some of the slates when it set up a bit more then I sealed it all several times.
I really didn't find the need to seal it first. Maybe if it was a larger floor I might have.
I did a white limestone (16x16" tile) floor w/black dots in that Fox Hunt La. project (in my website). It was in the entry to that house I built/reno'd and sold before I did this one. Wanna talk nightmare!!!? First time I ever did limestone...and I had to use white?? WOW!!!
You just look at it wrong and it gets dirty. Now THAT floor should have the tiles sealed as you take it out of the box. What a horror. In the end it looked gorgous...live and learn I reckon.
I actually had to clean the entire thing using pumice to bring it back again to snow white. Sorry, I don't think you can see much of it in my site : (
Horrible choice for an entry...Great choice if its for amagazine...lol.
Ahhhhhhh, the people that bought that house had mega bucks...they can pay to keep it clean...lol.
Catch ya later...off to Negril in an hour : )~
Namaste
a...
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Meaning of Namaste': I honor the place in you in which the entire Universe dwells, I honor the place in you which is of Love, of Truth, of Light and of Peace, When you are in that place in you, and I am in that place in me, we are One.
HAPPY HOLIDAYS:)http://http://www.woodstockanddeadseascrolls.net/files/track09c.mp3<
http://WWW.CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
Nothing stays white in my house, not even the self-clenaing cat. Stay pure in Negril! <G>
What is the name of that slate you used? I did a house a year or so and we installed that same slate for the fireplace surround and backsplash in the kitchen. Very nice. A lot of variation in color, There was some variation in texture too which obviously makes it harder to sponge off.
Somebody correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe that normally grout bags are used for larger joints than what you were doing on that floor.
I don't know that the slate is called by a name, but it's from India, sold at Lowes Missoula store for only $2.34 SF. It's gauged and very tight; i didn't lose a single piece from sawing or handling. I tested all the pieces for flat as i unloaded them out of the boxes, thinking the out-of-place ones would be my cuts, but i had very few non-flat pieces and none i couldn't use. I've seen stone in tile showrooms that cost a whole lot more and didn't look nearly as vibrant. My only gripe is that some pieces weren't very square. I very briefly thought of re-cutting all of them square, but couldn't face the cutting task or re-measuring all the layout lines.Before we had a Lowes, i'd earlier purchased similar-looking slate from HD for half that price and used it for the woodstove hearth and surround. It wasn't gauged, and i lost at least 10-20% to flatness, cleaving, and sawing issues. I wouldn't have trusted them for a walking surface, but the appearance is nearly identical. I got a bargain both times, and both kinds of slate are suitable for the use, but i just want to warn you not to go by color alone to get what you want.
The slate is called multi-colour peacock; at least it was when I bought it for my entryway. Sweet with a pewter grout and cheap at $3/ft for 8" tiles.Mapei polymer modified needs no admix, just wet to appropriate consistency. I used fast set so I could set, seal and grout all in one day. Took a little extra care to clean the surface due to the bends and folds of the slate, but grouting is essentially the same process as for ceramics and porcelains. Save the pastry bag for the real fiddly stuff.
Great minds...These were 12" square instead of 8", but i do love the name. Hey, don't you folks size in metric??? I bought several broken bags of Mapei thinset for dirtcheap a couple years ago, but i did notice fast-set thinset in Lowes last week. I wondered if it might be like epoxy, that the slower-curing stuff meant a stronger bond. Have you used both and noticed any difference in how they work or hold up?
I've found no difference in the two other than setting rates. Only difference in handling is mixing smaller batches of the fast set.I used 8" slate because it is a bouncy floor and I wanted to go light on the underlay so I could match levels with 3/4" hardwood. No problems at all with the mortar bond, not even cracking in the grout.
Thanks, i'll pick up a bag and try it. I'll save what i already have for a room with a DOOR; i sweated over a cat or dog getting past my barriers and rearranging the slates before they could fully set.I'm still curious about the dimensioning, so i looked on a box of these slates and see they're dimensioned in Imperial for L x W, and "10mm" for thickness. Something for everyone!
Two more points on the fast set: I clean the tools well between batches. Not sure about any tendency of old mud to flash new, but I figure I'm not going to take chances with it.I also lay the tile in smaller sections so the mud doesn't stand uncovered for as long.Couldn't tell you the nominbal size of these tiles. They are about an inch shy of a handspan and thickness was quite variable. Might have been calibrated in cubits.
Thanks for the tips. It sounds like you bought ungauged slate. I tore my hair out trying to level the joints in the hearth job i did with ungauged. This Lowes stuff is way, way faster and easier to work with. The backs are ridged from the gauging process, about 3/16" (4.7625mm; thank-you, Master Converter) relief, so there's a lot of grrrippp to it, too.
That's it - "peacock".
update..lol.
Just looked at my site. In "Andy On The Job"..at the bottom of that set of stairs I installed you can kinda see the limestone floor with the black granite border...OK,,bye..lol
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Meaning of Namaste': I honor the place in you in which the entire Universe dwells, I honor the place in you which is of Love, of Truth, of Light and of Peace, When you are in that place in you, and I am in that place in me, we are One.
HAPPY HOLIDAYS:)http://http://www.woodstockanddeadseascrolls.net/files/track09c.mp3<
http://WWW.CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
That sure is pretty.
Now, about your grouting.
Strength is not an issue, but shrinkage is. zero slump is way too stiff, even for laying tile. Shrinkage is not so big an issue under the tile, so you might as well make your life easier there and add a little admix to improve bonding and increase ease.
For laying, add water as you're used to, (zero slump,) then the admix. 4"-8" slump, depends on the tile. Bigger = stiffer.
For grouting, do not use admix in the spaces when finishing unless you want to spend three hours with steel wool getting it off the surface. Instead, add water only, till you get about a 6"-10" slump. You will be able to fill the lines with a lot less float pressure and wiping the excess off is a lot easier. Depends on the tile. Softer = more slump.
Get a rythym. Grout an arm sized area, scrape off the excess with your float, turn in place and repeat. Turn back and preclean the first spot with a damp sponge, getting the grout lines to the level you want. Turn again and float a third zone. Go back and preclean the second piece.
Precleaning still leaves quite a film of the cementious part of the grout on the surface, but most of the sand and all the lumps are gone.
At least an hour after grouting, but before the end of the day, go back with a big industrial mop and wet wet mop. Then get out your kneepads and with a really wet sponge, finish clean, wipe with a barely damp sponge, let dry and wipe with a soft dry cloth.
Basically, you have to adjust your grout to the surface, with Mexican Pavers, you need a very easily flowable grout so you don't have to use a lot of pressure. With twice fired porceline, you can use zero slump stuff.
Should be able to clean that little area in an hour.
About color changes, always dry mix the entire stock of a colored grout you are going to use on an area before you start, then use the same Water:Admix:Grout ratios throught the job. Figure out a way to duplicate the recipe on that job. ie. Fill this bucket to that line, add 3 McD coffe cups water, and 1/2 pepsi bottle admix. Or whatever you gots handy, as long as you're consistant.
SamT
Now if I could just remember that I am a businessman with a hammer and not a craftsman with a business....."anonymous". . .segundo
OK, it sounds like i took the "stiff mix" way too much to heart; my aching shoulders, wrists, and elbows thank you very much for the slump info. I have already developed a good rhythm of grouting and wiping, based on the fact i'm a rather short person with a limited reach, LOL.
It also sounds like i was also trying to get too much cleaning done in the first round, freaked that i'd have a horrid mess requiring acid etching if i didn't. I'll relax, breathe...You mentioned an admixture. The Mapei brands of thin-set and grout are already "polymer-modified"; the packaging say to add only water. I've been really pleased with this brand after two disasters with Versaflex and a Quickcrete product, so i'll stick with Mapei, pun intended. Anyway, are you saying an admixture is still advisable with the Mapei brand?
Anyway, are you saying an admixture is still advisable with the Mapei brand?
NO. I haven't a clue about Mapei. I haven't done kneebreaking... um tile work in tw... um a long time(|;>)
If you ask at a tile supply jobber, they should know.
Grout is much more forgiving of water than concrete.
Do an experiment to find what's best for you in your locale. Take a CBU underlay and draw lines on it to divide it into two halves of five sections each. Make each section 1 tile high by 3 tiles wide. Mix enough setting grout at a 10" slump to cover.
Set 6 tiles across the top section on each side. Add water to half the grout and admix to the rest to make two batches of 8" slump. Set another row of tile and go to 6" slump. Try different sized grout lines.
Do the same thing with the finish grout, but start at about a 3" slump and work down to about like fresh dairy cream.
When your done keep it all damp for a day and test scratch the filled lines. Keep it damp and test daily for 7 days. Keep it damp for 3 more weeks, then demo it.
That will tell you every thing you need to know about that cementious product.
Oh. One last tiny little secret; soak your tiles until an hour or so before you set them. But not so long that they mold.SamT
Now if I could just remember that I am a businessman with a hammer and not a craftsman with a business....."anonymous". . .segundo <!----><!---->
Yeah, stop cleaning so much with water cause your efforts can be constued as counter productive. Just get the heavy stuff off. Its ok to leave a little film, let that film dry. Bone dry and then sweep it off and polish with a dry terry cloth rag. then seal. It helps if your grout is the same color or as close as the tile or stone.
Thanks, again. This grouting certainly seems an easier job than i was making it. I did use a well wrung-out sponge when i cleaned, but i still picked up too much grout out of the joints. I notice the joints in the 12" glazed tile in the kitchen are flatter/better where i wasn't as concerned about removing grout glaze pronto.Thanks to all!
Looks really nice. I used a similar slate in our boys' playroom/sunroom and in our mudroom, and it was a royal PITA to get the grout up off the slate. Some did stay behind in some of the deeper crevaces, but such is life - it's supposed to be a rustic look.
I like your patterns and borders very much. I laid out a few different bonds and colors at the start, but ended up going with 'boring' bec carrying a pattern through three areas was too distracting. I appreciate the colors so much that i'm happy now i let them do all the talking.You made it harder on yourself with light grout. My very first slate job, i used lighter grout on dark green, didn't clean it well enough, and didn't know about acids to break up the grout later. I sealed it and all the light gray showed up so well... I was never too happy with my work on that, so i was over-meticulous cleaning this job. Maybe, like Goldilocks, the next one will be "just right".
Thanks. The pattern in the playroom/sunroom was supposed to sort of mimic a rug centered in the room. That room won't be a playroom much longer (got a cool one under construction in the basement right now) as we intend to reclaim it some day as "grown-up" space.
The running bond pattern in the mudroom was meant to have a cobblestone look. I orignally planned to use 4"x8" tiles, but decided against it mostly because of the subject of this thread - I didn't want to deal with that many grout lines.
It's kind of funny, but i'd planned to do the solarium in your "kid's colors" ever since i bought a fan for it painted in those bright hues. I guess i thought da mutts would approve, since the space will double as a canisarium when they're too muddy to come farther indoors. Now the slate is down, though, i've decided to dignify it up a bit with some swish halogen lighting, too. A chaise longue, slaves waving palm fronds...should be nice!