Hello:
I am building a new home in Ohio. The footers were poured last week. The plans call for vertical rebar to protrude from all footers to solid core to the block. My mason did this only on the walls that have a basement, and not on the porch or garage. I checked with my engineer and he wants to drill and add the forgotten rebar. In addition drain tile is speced in these two areas which the mason hasn’t done. I have talked to other builders and masons who don’t think the rebar and drain tile is not needed in the porch or garage “it just isn’t done!”. Any opionions on this would be greatly appreciated.
Thank you’
Ken
Replies
Is the rebar shown in all of these locations or just on the basement walls? Is there a "typical" foundation detail that applies to all foundation walls? If yes, then the concrete contractor owes you this. If you decide to leave it out, he owes you a credit.
Do the drawings show drain tile at the garage and porch? Is it included in a "typical" detail that applies to all locations? If yes, then the contractor owes you the installation or a credit for leaving it out.
Would I want the rebar in all foundations? Yes. Would I install drain tile around the garage or porch? Not unless they're attached to the house.
Eric
I would want the rebar and drains all the way around but theoretically I can see why it isn't necessary in those locations.
The rebar is to help resist lateral forces of the soils on a baseent wall that otherwise only has iar to back it up and could lean to the inside of the house as it begins to fail. There are two threads here now from folks with that happening into the crawl space. If the garage and porch have soil backfill to the inside equivalent to the external soils, that should resist any lateral force of the soil with an equall lateral force in the opposite direction. The drains are more important though. Let water get trapped in the soil and the freezing increases the external lateral force. Also, once it is there at that depth, what is to stop it from entering the basement?
Excellence is its own reward!
"The first rule is to keep an untroubled spirit.
The second is to look things in the face and know them for what they are."
--Marcus Aurelius
Piff,
Usually I agree with on just about everything but as to the drain tile being necessary on the porch/garage areas, you are off base on this one. It is not normally done here in Ohio and doesn't need to be. The basement walls should be filled with gravel/crushed stone up to about a foot of finished grade. Reputable builders do this regardless of wether local code requires it or not. If this is done any water that flows from the higher footer areas will run into the gravel and then down to the tile surrounding the basement footings. Without the gravel it won't work anyway. It is doubtful that the cement contractor bid it with tile because it is not standard practice. Also most garages/porches are "unexcavated" areas with just the area for the footings trenched and the walls backfilled both sides after they are built, thus creating equal forces on either side of the wall. Therfor the rebar in these areas is not needed. I know you mentioned the rebar in your post as possibly not being necessary, and I contend based on 25 years of observation/experience that the tile is not needed either.
Mark
Just for the record, Ohio has a lot of different soils and what works in one location doesn't necessarily work in others. For example, South of Toiledo is heavy clay; 12 miles away it changes to sandy in the northwest section.
In my opinion, a continuous drain tiule around the whole thing (especially in the clay areas) is a heck of a lot better than skiu[pping it at porches, garages' etc.
That's based on inspecting 1800+ houses in the Toledo area.________________________________________________
"I may have said the same thing before... But my explanation, I am sure, will always be different." Oscar Wilde
Bob,
Where I live almost all the soil is clay hence the method of stone backfill. If you have sandy soil that drains well so much the better. I am going to answer Piffin in more detail on this so check out my thoughts there.
Mark
Prof,
What part are you in? I'm just south of Toledo in a heavy clay area. Yeah, if they used stone to backfill everything would be great, but they usually don't so it isn't.
________________________________________________
"I may have said the same thing before... But my explanation, I am sure, will always be different." Oscar Wilde
Bob
I'm between Youngstown and Cleveland. In regard to your post about not using stone for backfill: I agree that not every builder uses it, if you go back and read my first post you will see that I said reputable builders use it regardless of wether or not code requires them to do so. Codes in our area vary but the good builders use stone because they know it works(some of them have learned the hard way) and they don't like call backs. The rule in our area is heavy clay, anything else is an exception. I have seen a lot of foundations that have been installed with draintile and just enough stone to cover the tile. Most of these installations are damp at the least and some are downright wet. There are several waterproofing companies in this area that make a lot of money fixing these problems. If the water cannot make it's way down to the drains then they can't do their job. Goes back to what I said about reputable builders. Happy Thanksgiving.
Mark
I don't see where we disagree here prof. You call it tiles and I call it drain. I don't know where the heck this is or what the soils are like but most of the country has at least moderately clayey soils which will need drians and then backfilling with stone or gravel. You either give the water a place to go or it will find a place to go along the path of least resistance. Sometimes this means into the basement.
I have lived in two places where drains were not used. One was in Florida where the soils are sand and the water percs through it faster than a greyhound runs down the rabbit. the other was in a high mountain valley on the banks of the Colorado river. Deposits there of good clean gravel from a violent hydraulic geological history are what the town was built on going down to at least forty feet. It didn't even contain enough water to freeze in deep winter. It got cold but not stiff. We didn't use drains in either of those places either but typically speaking, drains are a necessity for basement construction. If this house in question has very permeable soils that won't trap water against the basement wall, I'll agree that he doesn't need drains. Here's the sign to me that he does - he mentioned drains in one part of the foundation and not in another. If the drains are not needed, they are not needed at all. If they are necessary, they should be done complete enough to service..
Excellence is its own reward!
"The first rule is to keep an untroubled spirit.
The second is to look things in the face and know them for what they are."
--Marcus Aurelius
Piff,
Let me explain further as I'm not sure you are talking about the same thing. The normal course of construction in this area is to excavate the basement fully and pour the footings placing drain tile on both sides and running them to a sump crock/daylight depending on the fall available at the site. Typically 12 courses of block are installed or in some cases poured concrete. Unexcavated areas such as garages/porches/patios with foundations are trenched a depth sufficient to place the footings below frost(taking into account where the finished grade will be) and footings poured. Typically this results in 5 to 6 courses of block. Therefor the unexcavated footings are usually 3.5 to 4.5 feet higher than the basement footings. This means that even without draintile in the unexcavated areas any water that manages to make it over to the basement foundation area will immediately drain down thru the stone backfill and enter the basement draintile anyway. The stone acts as a french drain and makes tile in the unexcavated areas totally unecessary. Now if you don't use the stone backfill you might have a point but if you skip the stone water coming from those areas will be of the least concern. I rarely ever see someone use tile around unexcavated areas. It is not necessary and does little if any good. I have seen people omit the stone and most of them regret it. There are enough costs associated with a new house. I would say put your money where it counts. I might add that I have a lot of experience with this type of construction and have had plenty of time to see what works and what doesn't. Have a good one.
Mark
Good clear responce. I'll go along with that!.
Excellence is its own reward!
"The first rule is to keep an untroubled spirit.
The second is to look things in the face and know them for what they are."
--Marcus Aurelius
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